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Why aren't Vokey wedges forged?


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Durability. Casting allows harder metals that are too brittle to be forged.

 

Most forged irons are 1020 carbon steel. Cast Vokeys are 8620 carbon steel, harder steel means longer wedge life in abrasive sand and soil.

 

Makes sense to a point, but there are plenty of forged wedges out there as well....

And aren't Cleveland's CMM wedges supposed to be the softest metal ever in a golf club (or something like that...) ??

Just asking, cause it still seems a bit strange to me.

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I know people say that clevelands CMM is supposed to be softer forged, but I play forged 695cb and cg10 wedges, now way is the cmm softer. For cast it isn't bad, but it's not forged.

 

What taylormade fan says is right on, however I want to add in one thing. The profit margin on a cast head is huge compared to a forged head. the cast hardly cost them anything to make. Very cheap.

 

I thought cleveland was really doing right with the 900 series, but I don't know, I like my cg10's, just not as much as a forged club. They just aren't as solid, or as soft.

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The reason the titleist wedges are cast is because they don't put them in a forging die.

 

to be honest, the lifespan of a retail vokey isn'y any better than any of the forged clubs.... now if you were comparing that to PINGs 17-4 they last a lot

longer.

 

Becu is softer than any carbon steel and magnese bronze still softer than that.

 

Any old bronze anser you look has more dings than taylormadefans face :yahoo:

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Makes sense to a point, but there are plenty of forged wedges out there as well....

And aren't Cleveland's CMM wedges supposed to be the softest metal ever in a golf club (or something like that...) ??

Just asking, cause it still seems a bit strange to me.

 

Good question, you're right. X-tours, Mizuno MP-T, and Sonartec are all forged out of different metals 1020, 1025, and 8620 respectively, so it's possible.

 

I practice and play a lot, and I don't seem to burn through forged vs. non forged wedges any faster.

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Makes sense to a point, but there are plenty of forged wedges out there as well....

And aren't Cleveland's CMM wedges supposed to be the softest metal ever in a golf club (or something like that...) ??

Just asking, cause it still seems a bit strange to me.

 

Good question, you're right. X-tours, Mizuno MP-T, and Sonartec are all forged out of different metals 1020, 1025, and 8620 respectively, so it's possible.

 

I practice and play a lot, and I don't seem to burn through forged vs. non forged wedges any faster.

 

 

Think it's tooling cost... the chrome plating on the CG10 was shockingly bad for me, no bunker play and I could see the copper underlay after 3 months or so on the sole... must be adhesion to the CMM or something.

 

anybody else experience this ??

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The reason the titleist wedges are cast is because they don't put them in a forging die.

 

to be honest, the lifespan of a retail vokey isn'y any better than any of the forged clubs.... now if you were comparing that to PINGs 17-4 they last a lot

longer.

 

Becu is softer than any carbon steel and magnese bronze still softer than that.

 

Any old bronze anser you look has more dings than taylormadefans face :yahoo:

 

Any old bronze anser could also probably compose a more coherant sentence than Extreme Firepower. :yahoo:

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Any old bronze anser you look has more dings than taylormadefans face :yahoo:

 

Nothing personal TM fan, I thought it would be fun and your name was first on the list of

members reading this thread list as I typed so i chose it, just jesting! :bad:

 

I mean I know your face isn't dinged up like a old anser putter, more chewed up like an

HXtour56 maulled by a pack of hungry Mack Daddy grooves :yahoo:

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I've played Zodias, Bridgestone 23s, Cleveland 900 gun metals/Bronze, and Vokey retails/tours. I haven't played Spin Mills yet but, for me the tour vokeys felt just as good as any of the others. I think someone mentioned the Tour ones may have a thicker plating for durability????

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I believe 8620 has a lower Rockwell hardness than the 1020,1025 and 1030 forgings that come out.

 

Second part is tradition. Cleveland 588 wedges were initially cast 8620 carbon steel. Since these have basically been the industry standard for 18 years, the players want that same feel. Hence cast 8620 in Vokeys, Fe2O3 RAC wedges, Nike SV wedges, etc.

 

Third is cost. The cost of forging, grinding and finishing adds to the cost. Wedges are almost designed to be "disposable" at this point. Wear them out and get a new one. The high price point wedges like the Vadersen Snake Eyes wedges never took off.

 

Of all the above, I believe it is to keep the feel close to the Cleveland 588 wedges.

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Below is from the FAQ on Titleist's webpage, basically what everyone has stated.

 

Frequently Asked Questions

 

QUESTION

What is the reason for Titleist only offering cast wedges when you only offer forged irons?

 

 

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Titleist Vokey Design wedges are cast from mild carbon steel. The properties of the steel alloy are close to the material we use in our Forged 600 Series irons. This means the feel and sound of Vokey wedges are very similar to forged irons. Over 100 Vokey wedges are typically in play on the PGA Tour each week. The feel and performance are well accepted by the best players in the world and have never been an issue. The reason we have chosen to cast Vokey wedges (instead of forging them) is because of the large number of models Bob Vokey develops for both the tour and the market. Casting is a more efficient process to handle the number of models and frequent adjustments and modifications that are essential to Bob's work on tour. He is able to rapidly develop and test prototypes, and to make the slight tweaks needed to create the best performing wedge products. Through the casting process we can quickly and accurately reproduce the custom grinds and tweaks made during the development process.

 

The intensive tooling and post process work (such as hosel boring, installing scorelines, and cosmetic stamping) required on a forged part do not allow as much flexibility in the rapid development of models and prototypes. However, Titleist may choose to offer forged wedges in the future. Much of the process engineering work we did on the new Forged Stainless 704 and 804 irons may allow us to produce forged wedges for both the tour and the market. The bottom line is that both forging and casting are viable manufacturing processes for making a high performance golf club. Titleist employs both construction methods depending on the requirements of the product and the designer.

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Well, my 2 cents anyway...

 

The cost of forging is higher than casting. Forging will require a set of dies for each head and, since you're whacking it with a hammer press to form each article, the dies are expensive and wear out. With casting, you create wax impressions that are identical to the original, pack them in sand or clay, and pour in hot metal to form the heads. The molds in casting are cheaper because they are forming soft materials rather than hard and the sand mold only produces a single head. In either cases, the final machining is done by a milling machine which brings the head to precise dimensions.

 

So, I think it comes down to economics. A full line of wedges has a lot of different heads and it's more economical to tool for casting than forging. If there were a big enough difference in feel between cast and forged, then they'd probably have a forged line too (and you'd have less choices of head geometry). If you're building really high-stress parts like race car suspensions then the extra strength of the forged part might be necessary, but I guess that's not the case for a golf club.

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Below is from the FAQ on Titleist's webpage, basically what everyone has stated.

 

Frequently Asked Questions

 

QUESTION

What is the reason for Titleist only offering cast wedges when you only offer forged irons?

 

 

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Titleist Vokey Design wedges are cast from mild carbon steel. The properties of the steel alloy are close to the material we use in our Forged 600 Series irons. This means the feel and sound of Vokey wedges are very similar to forged irons. Over 100 Vokey wedges are typically in play on the PGA Tour each week. The feel and performance are well accepted by the best players in the world and have never been an issue. The reason we have chosen to cast Vokey wedges (instead of forging them) is because of the large number of models Bob Vokey develops for both the tour and the market. Casting is a more efficient process to handle the number of models and frequent adjustments and modifications that are essential to Bob's work on tour. He is able to rapidly develop and test prototypes, and to make the slight tweaks needed to create the best performing wedge products. Through the casting process we can quickly and accurately reproduce the custom grinds and tweaks made during the development process.

 

The intensive tooling and post process work (such as hosel boring, installing scorelines, and cosmetic stamping) required on a forged part do not allow as much flexibility in the rapid development of models and prototypes. However, Titleist may choose to offer forged wedges in the future. Much of the process engineering work we did on the new Forged Stainless 704 and 804 irons may allow us to produce forged wedges for both the tour and the market. The bottom line is that both forging and casting are viable manufacturing processes for making a high performance golf club. Titleist employs both construction methods depending on the requirements of the product and the designer.

 

Ahhhh!!! Thanks!!

 

The door is open however!

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It has absolutely nothing to do with durability. 8620 and 1020 have the same Rockwell hardness: 80-85 on the 'B' scale. The difference is that 1020 is not a good material to cast...high reject rates.

The reason why the worlds best wedges are cast is because of the shape integrity requirements of wedges.

A forging requires lots of shaping at a polishing wheel by a foundry worker charged with the task of interpreting the final product...normally a chinese.

Since wedges have such sensitive shape requirements, it is best to begin with a raw part that is near "net shape"

Forged wedges do not feel better than castings nor do they perform any better. By and large "Forged" is nothing but a marketing hook by executives that know that it rings a lot of bells for some players.

I used to be the senior designer for Cleveland Golf. We did a lot of testing in this area only to find that there is no real benefit (to forging wedges) including wholesale cost!

 

Don Wood

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It has absolutely nothing to do with durability. 8620 and 1020 have the same Rockwell hardness: 80-85 on the 'B' scale. The difference is that 1020 is not a good material to cast...high reject rates.

The reason why the worlds best wedges are cast is because of the shape integrity requirements of wedges.

A forging requires lots of shaping at a polishing wheel by a foundry worker charged with the task of interpreting the final product...normally a chinese.

Since wedges have such sensitive shape requirements, it is best to begin with a raw part that is near "net shape"

Forged wedges do not feel better than castings nor do they perform any better. By and large "Forged" is nothing but a marketing hook by executives that know that it rings a lot of bells for some players.

I used to be the senior designer for Cleveland Golf. We did a lot of testing in this area only to find that there is no real benefit (to forging wedges) including wholesale cost!

 

Don Wood

 

AMEN, Thanks for a sensible post in a thread frought with bad info, wishful thinking, and urban legend. As a reminder Titleist had a whole series of forged wedges a few years ago (DLIII, DD, SE, BF etc.) for the individual tour players wedges. Got a nice little leather book with them but they didn't feel any better than the cast Vokeys. Must be a reason that for years the most popular (used) wedges on the tour were cast (Cleveland, Titleist, Ping), while most of the forged wedges didn't get much play (Mizuno, MacGregor, B/P/T etc. etc.)

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It has absolutely nothing to do with durability. 8620 and 1020 have the same Rockwell hardness: 80-85 on the 'B' scale. The difference is that 1020 is not a good material to cast...high reject rates.

The reason why the worlds best wedges are cast is because of the shape integrity requirements of wedges.

A forging requires lots of shaping at a polishing wheel by a foundry worker charged with the task of interpreting the final product...normally a chinese.

Since wedges have such sensitive shape requirements, it is best to begin with a raw part that is near "net shape"

Forged wedges do not feel better than castings nor do they perform any better. By and large "Forged" is nothing but a marketing hook by executives that know that it rings a lot of bells for some players.

I used to be the senior designer for Cleveland Golf. We did a lot of testing in this area only to find that there is no real benefit (to forging wedges) including wholesale cost!

 

Don Wood

 

 

So there you have it, all this crap about buttery blades is complete twaddle.....

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So there you have it, all this crap about buttery blades is complete twaddle.....

 

Not complete twaddle, because I think there's a couple of different things in play here. Different metals favor different manufacturing processes. A lot of those cast clubs are stainless steel, which is harder and will feel different than carbon steel. Casting lends itself well to complicated shapes like deep cavity heads, and stainless steel is nice from a manufacturing standpoint because you only polish it to finish the product rather than chrome plate it (to prevent rust).

 

Forging works well with carbon steel which really is softer, but it limits the sorts of heads you can make to blades or shallow (player's) cavities. I don't think it's hard to prove that a forged head is stronger than a cast one, but the difference in strength is academic when you're talking about a golf swing (it wouldn't be if you were a racing crankshaft or airplane part). To make a big deal about the manufacturing process here is quasi-scientific marketing - a quantifiable difference exists, it just doesn't matter. For instance, if you check out the marketing of audiophile audio or video cables, you'll seem companies make a big deal about the geometry of their copper and the "skin effect" of current flow only on the surface of the cable. Those scientific effects are very real and very measurable, however, they only apply to the 18,000V power transmission line coming out of the power plant or to a radio transmission tower. At the 0.2V of audio band power that these cables will carry, the skin effect is totally negligible.

 

You can cast carbon steel if the shape is appropriate, hence low carbon steel Vokeys and Cleveland 588s. You can forge stainless if you like too, such as the Titleist forged stainless irons.

 

For the discerning player, I think this comes down to an issue of materials. If you were trying to be accurate, then "buttery carbon steel" would probably be pretty close! Softness of blades vs. cavities without regard to material is probably pretty meaningless.

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I believe 8620 has a lower Rockwell hardness than the 1020,1025 and 1030 forgings that come out.

 

Second part is tradition. Cleveland 588 wedges were initially cast 8620 carbon steel. Since these have basically been the industry standard for 18 years, the players want that same feel. Hence cast 8620 in Vokeys, Fe2O3 RAC wedges, Nike SV wedges, etc.

 

Third is cost. The cost of forging, grinding and finishing adds to the cost. Wedges are almost designed to be "disposable" at this point. Wear them out and get a new one. The high price point wedges like the Vadersen Snake Eyes wedges never took off.

 

Of all the above, I believe it is to keep the feel close to the Cleveland 588 wedges.

 

I have had forged EV Snake Eyes lob, Cleveland CG10 gap, and now VOkey sand and gap. I can tell you that the feel between and forged and cast wedge is not that great of a difference. THe CG10 just has a totally different feel to them. They felt hollow to me like there were many voids or air pockets in the casting or whatever their form forged process is. Durability of the CG10 is absolutely ridiculous. I have had this CG10 for less than a year and the plating has totally come unglued. It started with a little curling on the back of the wedge from banging around the bag next to my forged EV Snake Eyes, then the bottom 2 grooves started to crack open, now it is just unusable. I will be contacting Cleveland to see what they will do about it.

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Durability. Casting allows harder metals that are too brittle to be forged.

 

Most forged irons are 1020 carbon steel. Cast Vokeys are 8620 carbon steel, harder steel means longer wedge life in abrasive sand and soil.

 

Makes sense to a point, but there are plenty of forged wedges out there as well....

And aren't Cleveland's CMM wedges supposed to be the softest metal ever in a golf club (or something like that...) ??

Just asking, cause it still seems a bit strange to me.

 

 

FE99.9 is alot softer than CMM. Both the Japanese Bridgestone (my Tourstage 2006 X-Wedges) and Japanese TaylorMade lines occassionally have special FE99.9% carbon steel runs......

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Forged wedges do not feel better than castings nor do they perform any better. By and large "Forged" is nothing but a marketing hook by executives that know that it rings a lot of bells for some players.

I used to be the senior designer for Cleveland Golf. We did a lot of testing in this area only to find that there is no real benefit (to forging wedges) including wholesale cost!

 

Don Wood

 

Everytime I pick-up a Vokey (or old Cleveland 588) to hit, it feels harsh compared to most forged wedges. I really love some of the Vokey grinds, but hate the clicky feel. I even bought one, tried several differnt shafts, but could never create that soft feel that numerous forged wedges have given me in recent years (Bridgestone, Scratch, Nike, Titleist Faxon.....).

 

Some golfers may not be able to feel or hear the difference, but having grown up in the forged blade era, I can. I'm getting tired of people who don't have a sensitive golf feel in their hands telling me that I cannot feel the difference between cast and forged wedges, BECAUSE I CAN (and hate the cast feel).

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Forged wedges do not feel better than castings nor do they perform any better. By and large "Forged" is nothing but a marketing hook by executives that know that it rings a lot of bells for some players.

I used to be the senior designer for Cleveland Golf. We did a lot of testing in this area only to find that there is no real benefit (to forging wedges) including wholesale cost!

 

Don Wood

 

Everytime I pick-up a Vokey (or old Cleveland 588) to hit, it feels harsh compared to most forged wedges. I really love some of the Vokey grinds, but hate the clicky feel. I even bought one, tried several differnt shafts, but could never create that soft feel that numerous forged wedges have given me in recent years (Bridgestone, Scratch, Nike, Titleist Faxon.....).

 

Some golfers may not be able to feel or hear the difference, but having grown up in the forged blade era, I can. I'm getting tired of people who don't have a sensitive golf feel in their hands telling me that I cannot feel the difference between cast and forged wedges, BECAUSE I CAN (and hate the cast feel).

 

I'm right with you. I love my Vokeys, but having recently tried Mizuno wedges, there is no doubt that a quality forging is softer off the face. Now whether you prefer the harder clicky feel of the vokeys or a softer feel is up to you. But to say that forged wedges feel the same as cast ones simply is not true.

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I agree with the Hawk, and will take it a step further.

 

Anyone hitting a Mizuno forged iron and a Titleist forged iron can detect a difference in feel. The Titleist has a more "clicky" feel than the Mizuno. Similar situation with the Bridgestone J33CB's....as much as I liked the looks, the feel was different, more Titleist-like.

 

Regardles of whether the argument is that sound is the influencer (which many seem to believe) or whether it is actually the feel in the hands (which I believe), there is a difference.

 

Thus, in my opinion, a Cleveland CG10 feels "softer" to me than a Vokey, and I have played both. I would prefer to play Mizuno wedges, but they do not provide as many options as the aforementioned companies.

 

My two cents....

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I agree with the Hawk, and will take it a step further.

 

Anyone hitting a Mizuno forged iron and a Titleist forged iron can detect a difference in feel. The Titleist has a more "clicky" feel than the Mizuno. Similar situation with the Bridgestone J33CB's....as much as I liked the looks, the feel was different, more Titleist-like.

 

Regardles of whether the argument is that sound is the influencer (which many seem to believe) or whether it is actually the feel in the hands (which I believe), there is a difference.

 

My two cents....

 

I think you should read this:

http://www.golfdigest.com/feelissound/

 

Try your own experiments and maybe have a buddy give it a shot too so there's no bias.

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I think you should read this:

http://www.golfdigest.com/feelissound/

 

Try your own experiments and maybe have a buddy give it a shot too so there's no bias.

 

 

I tried that experiment and even with headphones to mute the sound I could defintely FEEL the difference. I do not understand why people refuse to believe that some golfers can feel the difference between forged and cast. It doesn't make one better, but just a perference for some of us.

 

BTW - Bridgestone MB's feel softer then the CB's in my opinion!! Also, why did Tiger play Miura made Titliest forged irons instead of Titleist's own forgings?? Miura's are softer and more solid (probably 1020 or 1018 vs. the 1030). I can tell the difference between my 1018 Scratch wedges, the FE99.9 tourstage and the 1020 Bridgestone's!!!!

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  • 4 months later...

I have Vokey wedges and I wish I would have got the gap wedge that matches my 704cb's instead of the Vokey because the cast Vokey feels much harder on full swings than my forged 704cb. It is VERY noticable. Even though I love the weighting and looks of my Vokeys my next wedges will most likely be forged because I really don't like the cast feel at impact on a lot of my shots.

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      Jason Day - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Josh Teater - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Michael Thorbjornsen - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Austin Smotherman - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Joseph Bramlett - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      C.T. Pan - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Anders Albertson - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Seung Yul Noh - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Blake Hathcoat - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Jimmy Stanger - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Cole Sherwood - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Anders Larson - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Bill Haas - WITB - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Tommy "2 Gloves" Gainey WITB – 2024 John Deere Classic
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Garrick Higgo - 2 Aretera shafts in the bag - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Jhonattan Vegas' custom Cameron putter - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putter - 2024 John Deere Classic
      2 new Super Stroke Marvel comics grips - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Swag blade putter - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Swag Golf - Joe Dirt covers - 2024 John Deere Classic
       
       
       
       
       
      • 3 replies
    • 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Nate Lashley - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
      Hayden Springer - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
      Jackson Koivun - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
      Callum Tarren - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
      Luke Clanton - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jason Dufner's custom 3-D printed Cobra putter - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 11 replies

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