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No push carts allowed?!?!


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We had the same rule at the last private club I worked at. The board put a general vote to the membership with regard to the issue and it was shot down. The main reason heard was wanting the club to have a certain "image" and having a bunch of members using pull carts and leaving them around the clubhouse did not meet that standard.

The worst part was I had to enforce this rule one day with a member of the US womens gold medal soccer team, Julie Foudy. She was married to one of our members at the club and they came out on a Sunday afternoon to walk a quick niner. Sure enough some member that had a overly eager interest in the rules of the club came racing into the shop and demanded that someone go and handle it immediately. So I was given the task of handling the situation. Luckily I was on great terms with her husband (we played in several pro-ams together) and handled it as discretely and painlessly as possible. Crappy way to meet a member of the club and someone whose hubby I was friendly with.

Hard call. I can see the view of the club and I can see the view of the person wanting to walk with a push cart.

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Bottom line...... I wouldn't expect some to understand "why" PRIVATE CLUBS have rules or certain rules....... some people just haven't been exposed themselfs to have to make fiscal decisions with regards to more then themselves or family.....

A private club is just another business, no matter how or what documents or classifications it shelters itself behiind.......

I can think of just a few simple reasons why I wouldn't want people to have push/pull carts on "my" golf course if I owned one......

1) have you ever seen some golfers in the parking lot trying to unload some of their walking carts..... I have, and some of them are a liability just waiting to happen..... and guess what, who do you think that golfer who strains and hurts themself loading or unloading the cart is going to blame when they get hurt.....EXACTLY
2) not that is ever is or will happen..... but what happens when the guy with his fancy motorized walking cart is finished golfing and puts the cart outfront by the bag drop and it aint there when he comes out from the lounge with his buddies..... who do you think he is going to EXPECT to pay for it....EXACTLY
3) I have played plenty of courses that no matter how dry it is..... have a hole or two that have areas that are simply wet areas...... not that this would happen.... but what happens when that walking cart gets stuck from the guy pulling it through that area... and over exerts him/herself and has a meltdown on the course..... who do you think will get blamed for this..... EXACTLY

you see its not always the obvious things that cause rules ....even the rules that seem stupid to some....... its the WHACKY things that you hardly ever think will happen that happens and spoils it for the rest of us......

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[quote name='PennsyltuckyMike' timestamp='1283276563' post='2671537']
I am really glad that today is the first time I have ever heard the phrase "Trail fee". I really, really hope that it is also the last.
[/quote]

Sadly I think it is gaining in usage rather than waning! I have run into it more in the last year or two...

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[quote name='OneBowTie' timestamp='1283287867' post='2671958']
Bottom line...... I wouldn't expect some to understand "why" PRIVATE CLUBS have rules or certain rules....... some people just haven't been exposed themselfs to have to make fiscal decisions with regards to more then themselves or family.....

A private club is just another business, no matter how or what documents or classifications it shelters itself behiind.......

I can think of just a few simple reasons why I wouldn't want people to have push/pull carts on "my" golf course if I owned one......

1) have you ever seen some golfers in the parking lot trying to unload some of their walking carts..... I have, and some of them are a liability just waiting to happen..... and guess what, who do you think that golfer who strains and hurts themself loading or unloading the cart is going to blame when they get hurt.....EXACTLY
2) not that is ever is or will happen..... but what happens when the guy with his fancy motorized walking cart is finished golfing and puts the cart outfront by the bag drop and it aint there when he comes out from the lounge with his buddies..... who do you think he is going to EXPECT to pay for it....EXACTLY
3) I have played plenty of courses that no matter how dry it is..... have a hole or two that have areas that are simply wet areas...... not that this would happen.... but what happens when that walking cart gets stuck from the guy pulling it through that area... and over exerts him/herself and has a meltdown on the course..... who do you think will get blamed for this..... EXACTLY

you see its not always the obvious things that cause rules ....even the rules that seem stupid to some....... its the WHACKY things that you hardly ever think will happen that happens and spoils it for the rest of us......
[/quote]


Interesting post. Incredibly wrong IMO, but interesting in its defense of odd rules.

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Sure, the revenue answer... lots of ways to generate revenue though.

Here is a WSJ article from last year on this very topic.
[url="http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052970204518504574420891621636098.html"]http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052970204518504574420891621636098.html[/url]

They contend the bias is an artifact from decades ago when private clubs had driving carts and the munis only had pull carts. Now we all have driving carts, but the mindset continues.

And, yes, this happens all over the place...

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I've belonged to two private clubs, neither being equity membership, though. One I would classify as lower end, with an inexpensive initiation fee and reasonable dues, and one I would classify as upper middle in terms of expense with a much higher initiation fee and much higher dues. Neither supplies nor has allowed pull/push carts. Two other semi-private clubs in the area I am familiar with don't allow pull/push carts either. For whatever the reason, certain clubs have certain rules. If one doesn't like the rules, join a different club or play somewhere else. There are plenty of options available to most.

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Very interesting and (for me, troubling) topic. I have done a little research today and am even more befuddled now than when I started. I may have something to share about this issue in the next few days. In the meantime, I am really interested in listening to what others are saying (and experiencing) in regards to this topic.

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[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1283283098' post='2671784']

While 'my club' does tend to be predominantly retirees, most folks just join the cart club (free use of carts for a quarterly fixed fee). I believe that this would include trail fees as well. So it is just an additional (and optional) cost of being a member.

dave
[/quote]
How's it optional? You have to pay everytime you play, whether it is to walk, ride or have a caddie.

Listen, I'm trying to slam your club. It seems like it defeats the purpose of joining a private club if you have to pay something every time you play.

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[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1283283485' post='2671809']


If this was a public course I agree.

The OP was talking about a private club....greens fees alone won't allow most of them to make budget.

They make money off the shirts/hats/pro shop; cart fees; and food. The OP was paying none of that. So he's costing the course money.

If the actual cost of operating the course were put into greens fees - most clubs would lose their membership - b/c they think like you do.


[/quote]
At most private clubs I am aware of, dues cover the cost of the course. Pro shop gear is bought by the pro, who gets to keep the revenue from the shop.

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[color=#1C2837]"Quite common private club policy. Its influenced by the clubs culture. My last club didn't allow them either. Members either took a golf cart, a caddie or carried their bag. When I got on the board some of us eventually swung the vote for push carts. But, because we didn't want to see old ragged cheap looking carts, we went out and bought a number of identical push carts and offered them free to membership. Club management then was responsible for keeping each push cart in TOP shape. It comes down to appearance and how the club wants to be perceived by other private clubs. "[/color]

[color=#1C2837]"We had the same rule at the last private club I worked at. The board put a general vote to the membership with regard to the issue and it was shot down. The main reason heard was wanting the club to have a certain "image" and having a bunch of members using pull carts and leaving them around the clubhouse did not meet that standard."[/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[color=#1C2837]"Asking that question is exactly why most (not all) private clubs prefer that new members have prior private club expereince. Costs are never black and white, and after joining it always cost more then is perceived." [/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[color=#1C2837]-----------------------[/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[color=#1C2837]One of the privileges of being a private course is that you can make your own rules. The unfortunate side of that is that private courses can have a distorted perception of what is befits their image. They get caught up in their status and image and golf is now secondary and image is primary. Maybe I would have a different perception if I was in that class (caste) but from my status level this is outdated thought processes from frumpy old men. Oh, I can afford to join a private course, but I refuse to for reasons just like this cart issue.[/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[color=#1C2837]I applaud Pepperturbo for making changes at his club, even in this seemingly minor area.[/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]

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[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1283287184' post='2671938']
[quote name='thechief16' timestamp='1283275238' post='2671493']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1283266731' post='2671180']
[quote name='thechief16' timestamp='1283266423' post='2671175']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1283265522' post='2671149']
Our club does not allow push carts. There is no (obvious to me) monetary issue here. You walk you pay a trail fee - ride you pay (the same) cart fee. Or you pay a caddie a good bit more, but virtually no members choose this on anything but a rare exception basis.

A number of members are strongly opposed to allowing push carts because their experience (at other clubs) is that some folks are not at all careful with where they 'push their carts' (particularly in very wet weather) and conditions around and on the greens will suffer.

I have no opinion regarding the validity of the concerns, but it didn't come from 'management'.

dave
[/quote]

They charge you to walk? That seems ludicrous.
[/quote]

Might be ludicrous - but it is not all that uncommon. Don't know that I would call it 'the norm', but it isn't rare.

dave
[/quote]
Then what do your membership dues get you? One of the biggest selling points of a private club is paying your dues and being able to play as much as you want. I understand charging for carts (both to offset the cost of said carts and to encourage more people to walk), but charging to walk seems to defeat the purpose. Sounds like a "greens fee".
[/quote]

Asking that question is exactly why most (not all) private clubs prefer that new members have prior private club expereince. Costs are never black and white, and after joining it always cost more then is perceived.

Let me try and explain it this way... how a private club is structured has a great deal to do with what costs what; P&L corporate run, owned by benevolent benefactor (one man or LLC consortium) or equity are the most common. I've been on the leadership committee of corporate owned and the executive board of an upscale equity.

Initiation fee is just to get into the club, and it typically goes into a special operating fund for capital expenditures. Monthly membership dues cover basic facility operating expenses; essentially covers unlimited golf for the member ... that's all.

If the club has food and beverage facilities, that's why there are quarterly minimums typically $125-300. If it has a locker room, renting a locker has a cost monthly ($20-30) if they have a shoe care person, that's a monthly ($25) or weekly cost. If you use a golf cart that's a cost each time you go out. If the member has his own golf cart,(most clubs have cart restrictions) he pays a trail fee annually which is $600-$800. Some upscale clubs only allow golf carts to members that actually need them due to physical limitations. Otherwise all members carry his/her bag without cost or use caddies. Caddy cost can vary around 1k-1500 per month on top of dues.

Typically additional fee's such as trail fee and any additional pass through member costs are charged to a members account in Jan of each calendar year, so that January's bill can be a whopper. Tipping normally isn't allowed so when holidays come up there's usually an amount added on to the members bill to accumulate a pot that's divided up among employees, such as Xmas. There are other costs but those are the most common.
[/quote]
Sorry. Just speaking from my experience as a current and member of several private clubs. I realize there are add-on fees, but having to pay a fee each time I want to walk the golf course is a new one to me.

And I'm going to shut up now. I realize that I have totally hijacked this thread. Sorry.

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No pull carts allowed on my course either. Walking permitted only on weekdays and after noon on weekends.

We had a big local junior tournament at the course and as usual, half the juniors pull out their pull carts and start up to the clubhouse, the marshalls sent all of them back to the car to put them away. Next thing that started happening was all these parents who came out to watch their kids ended up renting carts so the kids could put their bags in the back, essentially becoming their motorized caddie. You could just see those registers "Kaching-ing" away.

The alternative was the juniors ended up carrying their bag themselves. For some, probably a disruption to their game if they weren't used to it.

Yes, in my opinion, it's all revenue related.

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[quote name='eyeguy' timestamp='1283296292' post='2672266']
No pull carts allowed on my course either. Walking permitted only on weekdays and after noon on weekends.

We had a big local junior tournament at the course and as usual, half the juniors pull out their pull carts and start up to the clubhouse, the marshalls sent all of them back to the car to put them away. Next thing that started happening was all these parents who came out to watch their kids ended up renting carts so the kids could put their bags in the back, essentially becoming their motorized caddie. You could just see those registers "Kaching-ing" away.

The alternative was the juniors ended up carrying their bag themselves. For some, probably a disruption to their game if they weren't used to it.

Yes, in my opinion, it's all revenue related.
[/quote]


That is unwarranted behavior on the part of the club. They should all be horse whipped

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[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1283295072' post='2672216']
Oh, I can afford to join a private course, but I refuse to for reasons just like this cart issue.[/font][/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[color=#1C2837]I applaud Pepperturbo for making changes at his club, even in this seemingly minor area.[/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[/quote]


The previous club at which i was a member invoked the cart mandatory rule until 1pm rule for weekends and holidays. Only 4 of us walked and carried and we call quite. Hand carts were verboten for men but not not women

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[quote name='thechief16' timestamp='1283294554' post='2672188']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1283283098' post='2671784']
[quote name='thechief16' timestamp='1283275238' post='2671493']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1283266731' post='2671180']
[quote name='thechief16' timestamp='1283266423' post='2671175']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1283265522' post='2671149']
Our club does not allow push carts. There is no (obvious to me) monetary issue here. You walk you pay a trail fee - ride you pay (the same) cart fee. Or you pay a caddie a good bit more, but virtually no members choose this on anything but a rare exception basis.

A number of members are strongly opposed to allowing push carts because their experience (at other clubs) is that some folks are not at all careful with where they 'push their carts' (particularly in very wet weather) and conditions around and on the greens will suffer.

I have no opinion regarding the validity of the concerns, but it didn't come from 'management'.

dave
[/quote]

They charge you to walk? That seems ludicrous.
[/quote]

Might be ludicrous - but it is not all that uncommon. Don't know that I would call it 'the norm', but it isn't rare.

dave
[/quote]
Then what do your membership dues get you? One of the biggest selling points of a private club is paying your dues and being able to play as much as you want. I understand charging for carts (both to offset the cost of said carts and to encourage more people to walk), but charging to walk seems to defeat the purpose. Sounds like a "greens fee".
[/quote]

While 'my club' does tend to be predominantly retirees, most folks just join the cart club (free use of carts for a quarterly fixed fee). I believe that this would include trail fees as well. So it is just an additional (and optional) cost of being a member.

dave
[/quote]
How's it optional? You have to pay everytime you play, whether it is to walk, ride or have a caddie.

Listen, I'm trying to slam your club. It seems like it defeats the purpose of joining a private club if you have to pay something every time you play.

[/quote]

You have two ways to pay the 'full freight' for playing golf.

1) Cart Club and all is covered (no minimums, BTW)
2) There will be an extra fee for each round (outside of twilight/walking)

It is your [u]option. [/u]Since the average age around here is mid 60's or later and few of these guys are inclined to walk under any circumstance, you basically have two ways to rent a cart. Guys who are here all year and play a lot chose #1 (and pay nothing everytime they play). Guys who are half-timers (some head north in the summer and some head south in the winter) chose #2. It seems pretty darned rational to me. You can also use your own cart (and there is a different/smaller quarterly fee involved).

dave

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For some clubs revenue stream is in part why they don't allow push carts. That said, having represented a private club in various capacities visiting other mid to high end private clubs it's mostly tied to image and culture, especially if the club is owned by a benevolent dictator or equity.

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[quote name='mtsmith' timestamp='1283212205' post='2669864']
maybe they have had problems with people rolling them over ther greens (not that it would hurt the greens too too much, unless they were soft or wet)
[/quote]


a pure money grab...pull carts, especially the new ones have much less weight per square inch on the ground than a golf shoe or especially a full size riding cart.

they probably charge for ice in a drink also.

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[quote name='thechief16' timestamp='1283294724' post='2672198']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1283283485' post='2671809']
If this was a public course I agree.

The OP was talking about a private club....greens fees alone won't allow most of them to make budget.

They make money off the shirts/hats/pro shop; cart fees; and food. The OP was paying none of that. So he's costing the course money.

If the actual cost of operating the course were put into greens fees - most clubs would lose their membership - b/c they think like you do.


[/quote]
At most private clubs I am aware of, dues cover the cost of the course. Pro shop gear is bought by the pro, who gets to keep the revenue from the shop.
[/quote]

I don't think its too common any longer for the PRO to own the pro shop. It used to be pretty common ...... but I haven't seen that arrangement or even heard of it for quite some time. Perhaps its more of a regional thing now, I don't know.

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[quote name='Rohlio' timestamp='1283284392' post='2671833']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1283283485' post='2671809']
If this was a public course I agree.

The OP was talking about a private club....greens fees alone won't allow most of them to make budget.

They make money off the shirts/hats/pro shop; cart fees; and food. The OP was paying none of that. So he's costing the course money.

If the actual cost of operating the course were put into greens fees - most clubs would lose their membership - b/c they think like you do.


[/quote]

I am a proprietary member of a private club, Our dues cover the maintenance of the course. We don't get charged to walk on a course that we the members own. The pro makes money from cart rentals. His staff maintains and pays for them. If they started charging those of us who don't use them additional to walk on a course we the members own we would simply vote it down or remove the pro. I don't understand how this is even a question. Especially at a private club, maybe at a semi-private and of course at a public which needs to generate revenue to stay in business. A private club on the other hand is not a money making enterprise in the first place.

The OP was invited to play as a guest of a member at a private club. I presume he paid a greens fee ( or the member paid it for him) for playing the course, as any non-member would. He was denied the use of his pull cart but still played the round without paying them another dime for the right to do so, why? because that is what a greens fee is for! Also how do you know they didn't buy lunch and drinks or get a few beers. Maybe he bought a shirt. The question is why should he not be allowed to use a push cart, if he is allowed to walk while carrying his bag? What detriment is there to anyone?The only one who made a salient point about this is Pepperturbo in commenting that you don't want a bunch of rickety looking crap around the club if it is trying to come off as particularly upscale. So do the same thing you do with the dress code.
[/quote]


Things may be different in Oregon vs Washington, DC. No doubt.



I read the original post. The OP seems that he was a guest of a person who caddies at the private club. I assumed that the caddy is not a member. At our club the caddies usually get to play for free when they are not working (Mondays) and if they take a cart, they pay a cart fee. They are not allowed to bring guests. I assumed the OP is a guest of a caddy - and the guest wanted to also play for free by just walking.

In other words - 2 guys are potentially playing for free.

If you allow guests of members to play for free; and guests of non-members to play for free - then that's great.

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Interesting thread. I didn't realize that the push/pull cart had such an image stigma. I have been a member at 5 private clubs and had board/committee participation. I don't think I would like to be in a discussion on this topic if it was because of 'image'. That being said ... a club does need to have their culture and policy regardless if everyone likes it or not. It becomes the guiding principle(s) when tough decisions need to be made.

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Do they outlaw ugly golf shirts too? How about golfers that have 50 inch waists? Do women's skirts have to be a certain brand name?

I measure the worth of a club by the quality of the golf course, and the quality if the golf that is played there. Everything else is worthless, because it can be bought. Because we all know money has no discretion.

If a club bans pull and push carts to bilk their members for more money, raise the dues. If a club does it for image, they should ban lousy golf swings instead.

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[quote name='birdieboy52' timestamp='1283297043' post='2672287']
[quote name='eyeguy' timestamp='1283296292' post='2672266']
No pull carts allowed on my course either. Walking permitted only on weekdays and after noon on weekends.

We had a big local junior tournament at the course and as usual, half the juniors pull out their pull carts and start up to the clubhouse, the marshalls sent all of them back to the car to put them away. Next thing that started happening was all these parents who came out to watch their kids ended up renting carts so the kids could put their bags in the back, essentially becoming their motorized caddie. You could just see those registers "Kaching-ing" away.

The alternative was the juniors ended up carrying their bag themselves. For some, probably a disruption to their game if they weren't used to it.

Yes, in my opinion, it's all revenue related.
[/quote]


That is unwarranted behavior on the part of the club. They should all be horse whipped
[/quote]

Juniors [i]should[/i] be carrying their own bag. They're kids for crying out loud. And if the parents are to lazy to walk the course than they [i]should[/i] have to pay for that cart. Gas isn't free.

As some who's worked in the business at private clubs I always find threads like this to be hilarious.

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It could also be a speed issue. When it comes to greens and roped off areas, bag carriers can go straight through, cart users go around quickly, push carters go around slowly. Not that I agree with the rule, quite the opposite, but I must admit from the stories I hear on wrx about golf in the States, I don't think I'd have the patience to play if I lived there.

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[quote name='OneBowTie' timestamp='1283287867' post='2671958']
Bottom line...... I wouldn't expect some to understand "why" PRIVATE CLUBS have rules or certain rules....... some people just haven't been exposed themselfs to have to make fiscal decisions with regards to more then themselves or family.....

A private club is just another business, no matter how or what documents or classifications it shelters itself behiind.......

I can think of just a few simple reasons why I wouldn't want people to have push/pull carts on "my" golf course if I owned one......

1) have you ever seen some golfers in the parking lot trying to unload some of their walking carts..... I have, and some of them are a liability just waiting to happen..... and guess what, who do you think that golfer who strains and hurts themself loading or unloading the cart is going to blame when they get hurt.....EXACTLY
2) not that is ever is or will happen..... but what happens when the guy with his fancy motorized walking cart is finished golfing and puts the cart outfront by the bag drop and it aint there when he comes out from the lounge with his buddies..... who do you think he is going to EXPECT to pay for it....EXACTLY
3) I have played plenty of courses that no matter how dry it is..... have a hole or two that have areas that are simply wet areas...... not that this would happen.... but what happens when that walking cart gets stuck from the guy pulling it through that area... and over exerts him/herself and has a meltdown on the course..... who do you think will get blamed for this..... EXACTLY

you see its not always the obvious things that cause rules ....even the rules that seem stupid to some....... its the WHACKY things that you hardly ever think will happen that happens and spoils it for the rest of us......
[/quote]

This argument doesn't hold any water at all, IMO. The same (if not MORE) liability issues exist when one is using a power cart.

[quote name='jontyc' timestamp='1283406294' post='2675014']
It could also be a speed issue. When it comes to greens and roped off areas, bag carriers can go straight through, cart users go around quickly, push carters go around slowly. Not that I agree with the rule, quite the opposite, but I must admit from the stories I hear on wrx about golf in the States, I don't think I'd have the patience to play if I lived there.
[/quote]

I could see the speed issue as a reason during peak times, but we teed off at 9am on a monday. We saw 3 people on the course all day - one of which was part of the maintenance crew.

So far, I guess the revenue issue makes the most sense. It's a shame that it comes down to that, but again, as I was a guest, it wasn't my place to say anything at the time.

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[quote name='Headgames' timestamp='1283408630' post='2675044']
So far, I guess the revenue issue makes the most sense.
[/quote]

The reason Pepperturbo has given more than once seems more likely to me...its right up there (in the members' eyes) with blue jeans, untucked shirts, and changing shoes at the back of your car.

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If a club's management and/or members want to have rules barring the wearing of jeans, untucked shirts, the changing shoes in the parking lot, banning the use of push/pull carts, requiring mandatory use of power carts or paying the fee for one even if walking (I've seen that), using cart paths only, requiring collared shirts, whatever, they have a right to do so. If one has an issue with any of them, one always has the option to join/play somewhere else.

At clubs that allow walking and only have the option of riding carts, sure, revenue plays a part, but if it weren't for the revenue from the power carts dues would probably have to go up for everyone. Given the terrain at my course that a pull/push cart has to be navigated through I can see where injury liability could be a big factor. As someone else mentioned, pace of play could also be an issue if there are terrain feature that have to be navigated around with these carts as opposed to the path a walker could take. People already complain about how long it takes to play a round of golf and on many course this would just add to the slow pace.

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[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1283432929' post='2675274']
[quote name='Headgames' timestamp='1283408630' post='2675044']
So far, I guess the revenue issue makes the most sense.
[/quote]

The reason Pepperturbo has given more than once seems more likely to me...its right up there (in the members' eyes) with blue jeans, untucked shirts, and changing shoes at the back of your car.
[/quote]


Yes, except some pretty damn exclusive clubs permit them.

I would really recommend the WSJ article I posted earlier. It provides good insight as to **why** many golf clubs hold onto the stigma.

Can we mostly agree it is a stigma, by the way?

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