No push carts allowed?!?!

[gjpep]

I find the "stigma of push carts argument" quite interesting. At the courses I play (that are walkable), the golfers who use push carts almost all have Sun Mtn/Clic Gear carts (or the equivalent)and which are in good condition; generally have newer/nicer bags and clubs; are in better physical condition; and less likely to be toting a cooler full of beer/drunk than the "cart riders". To each his own--at the end of the day, I know where I would prefer/choose to play/be a member

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1283432929' post='2675274']
[quote name='Headgames' timestamp='1283408630' post='2675044']
So far, I guess the revenue issue makes the most sense.
[/quote]

The reason Pepperturbo has given more than once seems more likely to me...its right up there (in the members' eyes) with blue jeans, untucked shirts, and changing shoes at the back of your car.
[/quote]

Interesting how so many want to dislike this or that about certain cultural aspects of private clubs. There might be a day when push carts are common at private clubs, but I don't believe that will happen in my lifetime, least at most private clubs where golf is held up to traditional standards. Where dress codes are appreciated and members "for the most part" know how to behave, regardless of their profession.

But when all is said and done, most "not all" people join private clubs for more then playing "unlimited" golf on manicured tracks at reasonable rates, and or being able to use a push cart. We join because we love playing "tournament" golf, and or socializing around golf with others that take the game serious. But, maybe more important, just not talked about, is to make new, possible lifelong friends with families that have similar lifestyles. Some people won't admit it on here for fear... others might not appreciate it, which I can understand; still it's the biggest motive that contributes towards people willingly joining private clubs and adhering to the club rules, what ever they are.

Push cart, carry, use clubs cart or own a golf cart as I did, means nothing. One example; I like being able to call up a friend and see if he's up for golf elsewhere, even though we have private club membership. It's nice to know he's not trying to get his money's worth or feels obligated to play at the club to justify costs, and he knows how to present himself. I don't have to contend with someone saying I can't afford it, or worry they won't know how to behave or dress when meeting people that they wouldn't otherwise come into contact with.

Saying that in no way is meant to demean anyone that doesn't have the resources, or just chooses not to join a nice private club for their own reasons... it's to say, when I ask someone to play golf like a few days ago, and his response is "oh, that course is too expensive", even though I respect him for his honesty, two things happened. He sort of felt bad to have to say "that course is too expensive", and he only plays muni's. I felt bad for him because some of us are sensitive to those types of odd situations. There alone shows sometimes our lifestyles separates friends even if it's not intended. At private clubs that's not likely to occur.

[roll - gybe]

Pepper just took this thing way off track...
Pepper still holding onto the stigma too.

I think that it is important to question the stigma, and some of the most exclusive clubs in the country are doing just that.

Why should I form my view on appropriate or not based on a series of events that happened before my lifetime and were predicated upon currently obsolete parameters?

We aren't talking about fundamental morality here, we are really talking about fashion.

[Pepperturbo]

No I didn't... but that's your opinion. You obviously don't have my foundation or resulting perspective... what you have is simple stigma theory or stereotyping that in actuality doesn't meet your wish.

[hayzooos]

Too much bickering to read the whole thread (I made it through the first page though), but here goes:

-- To the guy with sand and seed in your push cart. I pray you got it from the course and don't just bring the same stuff from place to place. That would drive most supers up a wall and probably want to shove that pail you have where the sun doesn't shine...

-- Golf cart revenue --> I used to work at a university course (no, not private) and the GM got $1 for every cart that went out. We had no rules against anyone walking, though the cart fee was "included" in the greens fee on weekends. You'd be surprised how many people still wanted to walk even though they were "paying" for a cart anyway.

-- Private clubs have some strange rules just to stay "classy". I have no problems with people using a pull cart. I personally have never used one, not once. I don't look down upon those who do either. Frankly, I think it's pretty darn smart. I would much rather walk most courses than ride, and I think it takes less time that way as well. It's just not as social and that's probably why 80% of people play the game. Remember, us here on WRX are a whole other leauge, we are not the majority and people tend to forget that from time to time, especially when it comes to people whining about stock clubs not fitting them properly with their 140+ mph swing speeds.

[roll - gybe]

Pepper, what precisely is your "foundation"?
Futhermore, there is nothing "simple" about what I have presented. Do you wish to get into comparing educations again with me as you tried in failure once before?

The reason I bring this up is because I actually think it is relevant to the topic.

Pomposity breeds hubris and irrationality. That is the train of thought I see repeatedly in the resistance to push carts. I'll check back later... I am off to play a private course that doesn't allow push carts -- really!

[Pepperturbo]

Your view is fine... doesn't make it the view of all private club members, BOD's or club owners. Comparing expereince (NOT EDUCATION) on the subject would be appropriate, but based upon exhibited attitudes, I am sure experience isn't respected; so have a good day.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='Headgames' timestamp='1283408630' post='2675044']
[quote name='OneBowTie' timestamp='1283287867' post='2671958']
Bottom line...... I wouldn't expect some to understand "why" PRIVATE CLUBS have rules or certain rules....... some people just haven't been exposed themselfs to have to make fiscal decisions with regards to more then themselves or family.....

A private club is just another business, no matter how or what documents or classifications it shelters itself behiind.......

I can think of just a few simple reasons why I wouldn't want people to have push/pull carts on "my" golf course if I owned one......

1) have you ever seen some golfers in the parking lot trying to unload some of their walking carts..... I have, and some of them are a liability just waiting to happen..... and guess what, who do you think that golfer who strains and hurts themself loading or unloading the cart is going to blame when they get hurt.....EXACTLY
2) not that is ever is or will happen..... but what happens when the guy with his fancy motorized walking cart is finished golfing and puts the cart outfront by the bag drop and it aint there when he comes out from the lounge with his buddies..... who do you think he is going to EXPECT to pay for it....EXACTLY
3) I have played plenty of courses that no matter how dry it is..... have a hole or two that have areas that are simply wet areas...... not that this would happen.... but what happens when that walking cart gets stuck from the guy pulling it through that area... and over exerts him/herself and has a meltdown on the course..... who do you think will get blamed for this..... EXACTLY

you see its not always the obvious things that cause rules ....even the rules that seem stupid to some....... its the WHACKY things that you hardly ever think will happen that happens and spoils it for the rest of us......
[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]
This argument doesn't hold any water at all, IMO. The same (if not MORE) liability issues exist when one is using a power cart.[/color]

[quote name='jontyc' timestamp='1283406294' post='2675014']
It could also be a speed issue. When it comes to greens and roped off areas, bag carriers can go straight through, cart users go around quickly, push carters go around slowly. Not that I agree with the rule, quite the opposite, but I must admit from the stories I hear on wrx about golf in the States, I don't think I'd have the patience to play if I lived there.
[/quote]

I could see the speed issue as a reason during peak times, but we teed off at 9am on a monday. We saw 3 people on the course all day - one of which was part of the maintenance crew.

So far, I guess the revenue issue makes the most sense. It's a shame that it comes down to that, but again, as I was a guest, it wasn't my place to say anything at the time.
[/quote]

Actually, since the OP used the term PRIVATE CLUBS...... you are wrong on the liability issue..... if you read the membership agreements, there most likely is a stipulation that you MUST have a valid drivers license to operate and use a golf cart( power cart)..... as well as some other agreement that you are going to be held accountable and responsible for the OPERATION of the golf cart...... not too mention that MOST private club members who hold a valid driver's license would then also be carrying auto and possibly home owners insurance for the PRIVATE CLUB to also go after.

Also for the record...... my post wasn't a argument, it was merely stating that there are many reasons private clubs have rules, not just for "stigma" or revenue streams. As well as pointing out that some rules have come to light because of the possibility of what could/can/has happened.

I really have no opposition to members using push/pull carts if the club allows it. Just as I have no issue with a club having a rule either for or against such use.

While there are many upscale clubs that do allow them, there are many that don't allow them. I think that the average age of membership plays a large part on such rules.

Just as there are some clubs that don't allow for any use of any type of cart- where walking is your only option with a club caddy.

[jak_bot]

[quote name='eyeguy' timestamp='1283296292' post='2672266']
No pull carts allowed on my course either. Walking permitted only on weekdays and after noon on weekends.

We had a big local junior tournament at the course and as usual, half the juniors pull out their pull carts and start up to the clubhouse, the marshalls sent all of them back to the car to put them away. Next thing that started happening was all these parents who came out to watch their kids ended up renting carts so the kids could put their bags in the back, essentially becoming their motorized caddie. You could just see those registers "Kaching-ing" away.

The alternative was the juniors ended up carrying their bag themselves. For some, probably a disruption to their game if they weren't used to it.

Yes, in my opinion, it's all revenue related.
[/quote]




Wow how things have changed. I remember when I was in junior golf everyone carried their clubs. Pull/Push carts were allowed, but if you used one you were laughed at or got funny looks.

[Harry Longshanks]

[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1283547180' post='2677961']
Wow how things have changed. I remember when I was in junior golf everyone carried their clubs. Pull/Push carts were allowed, but if you used one you were laughed at or got funny looks.
[/quote]

I think a lot of it has to do with how courses are designed these days. The classic courses were built with short distances from green to tee, and they were laid out so that the walking distance wasn't much longer than the playing distance. But recent courses are much more spread out (proof: HS and college tournaments that run shuttles from greens to tee boxes on many holes). As the courses have gotten longer, the walking distances have gotten even longer than that. It seems like course designers are now focusing only on the individual holes and not the course as a whole. Great courses are being built - just not great walking courses. But great courses [i]can [/i]be built for walking (for example, Colonial). It just doesn't seem like anyone is doing it.

Another problem is the extinction of caddy programs. I think there would be a lot more walkers if caddies were still available and affordable. (Of course, then you get into the whole chicken/egg debate.)

[tinman17]

[quote name='OneBowTie' timestamp='1283287867' post='2671958']
Bottom line...... I wouldn't expect some to understand "why" PRIVATE CLUBS have rules or certain rules....... some people just haven't been exposed themselfs to have to make fiscal decisions with regards to more then themselves or family.....

A private club is just another business, no matter how or what documents or classifications it shelters itself behiind.......

I can think of just a few simple reasons why I wouldn't want people to have push/pull carts on "my" golf course if I owned one......

1) have you ever seen some golfers in the parking lot trying to unload some of their walking carts..... I have, and some of them are a liability just waiting to happen..... and guess what, who do you think that golfer who strains and hurts themself loading or unloading the cart is going to blame when they get hurt.....EXACTLY
2) not that is ever is or will happen..... but what happens when the guy with his fancy motorized walking cart is finished golfing and puts the cart outfront by the bag drop and it aint there when he comes out from the lounge with his buddies..... who do you think he is going to EXPECT to pay for it....EXACTLY
3) I have played plenty of courses that no matter how dry it is..... have a hole or two that have areas that are simply wet areas...... not that this would happen.... but what happens when that walking cart gets stuck from the guy pulling it through that area... and over exerts him/herself and has a meltdown on the course..... who do you think will get blamed for this..... EXACTLY

you see its not always the obvious things that cause rules ....even the rules that seem stupid to some....... its the WHACKY things that you hardly ever think will happen that happens and spoils it for the rest of us......
[/quote]


Seriously?????

[Pweb44]

[quote name='PennsyltuckyMike' timestamp='1283276563' post='2671537']
I am really glad that today is the first time I have ever heard the phrase "Trail fee". I really, really hope that it is also the last.
[/quote]


+1 Trail Fee = Cash Grab.

[RickK]

Not only heard of it, it is a very common practice at most private clubs I have belonged to or played at. Doesn't mean it makes everyone happy but it is their rules and it is their club.

[roll - gybe]

It's all in the stigma.

Go to Bandon and you will see all the boys with their logo-ed bags on push carts.
They don't seem too embarassed there.

[nicekindtrue]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1283295072' post='2672216']
[color="#1c2837"]"Quite common private club policy. Its influenced by the clubs culture. My last club didn't allow them either. Members either took a golf cart, a caddie or carried their bag. When I got on the board some of us eventually swung the vote for push carts. But, because we didn't want to see old ragged cheap looking carts, we went out and bought a number of identical push carts and offered them free to membership. Club management then was responsible for keeping each push cart in TOP shape. It comes down to appearance and how the club wants to be perceived by other private clubs. "[/color]

[color="#1c2837"]"We had the same rule at the last private club I worked at. The board put a general vote to the membership with regard to the issue and it was shot down. The main reason heard was wanting the club to have a certain "image" and having a bunch of members using pull carts and leaving them around the clubhouse did not meet that standard."[/color]
[color="#1c2837"]
[/color]
[color="#1c2837"]"Asking that question is exactly why most (not all) private clubs prefer that new members have prior private club expereince. Costs are never black and white, and after joining it always cost more then is perceived." [/color]
[color="#1c2837"]
[/color]
[color="#1c2837"]-----------------------[/color]
[color="#1c2837"]
[/color]
[color="#1c2837"]One of the privileges of being a private course is that you can make your own rules. The unfortunate side of that is that private courses can have a distorted perception of what is befits their image. They get caught up in their status and image and golf is now secondary and image is primary. Maybe I would have a different perception if I was in that class (caste) but from my status level this is outdated thought processes from frumpy old men. Oh, I can afford to join a private course, but I refuse to for reasons just like this cart issue.[/color]
[color="#1c2837"]
[/color]
[color="#1c2837"]I applaud Pepperturbo for making changes at his club, even in this seemingly minor area.[/color]
[color="#1c2837"]
[/color]
[/quote]

Clubs afraid of having golf bags standing around the clubhouse.... oh my....

I think many people like me enjoy looking into other peoples bags, it's like a WITB thread on this site. Personally I have to keep myself from not looking too much, I might look like a thief looking for something to steal... :-)

[tinman17]

I keep seeing the "maintaining traditional standards" excuse for why golf carts should be the only way to go. Really...Do you think the original masters of golf course architecture had golf carts in mind? Golf carts bring the game to the masses and that is great, but please, let us lowly push cart users play !! We have feelings you know...

[MitchyBoy]

Wow. When you play in the UK I would say 90% of the courses are walking / power trolley courses.

There are very few courses that are exclusively buggy courses.

As for the tradition element of things, surely the traditional way to play is to carry, and not to cruise along in a buggy on a cart path?

I would say that at the majority of the courses on the Open rota, (and I have played several) you walk them or take a trolley. And these are THE Open courses, so it doesn't get much more traditional than that!!

[nicekindtrue]

[quote name='MitchyBoy' timestamp='1284212924' post='2690794']
Wow. When you play in the UK I would say 90% of the courses are walking / power trolley courses.

There are very few courses that are exclusively buggy courses.

As for the tradition element of things, surely the traditional way to play is to carry, and not to cruise along in a buggy on a cart path?

I would say that at the majority of the courses on the Open rota, (and I have played several) you walk them or take a trolley. And these are THE Open courses, so it doesn't get much more traditional than that!!
[/quote]

I'm with you! Could you name any (famous) UK courses that doesn't allow trolleys?

[roll - gybe]

Did anyone click on that WSJ link?

It is a fantastic article.

... I agree with you Brits!

As for the Americans, do you think CB, Seth, Donald, Alistar, Tilly wanted us in a plastic horse?

For gosh sake, this "traditional/classy" argument that driving > pulling is so inauthentic...

[roll - gybe]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1283442672' post='2675563']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1283432929' post='2675274']
[quote name='Headgames' timestamp='1283408630' post='2675044']
So far, I guess the revenue issue makes the most sense.
[/quote]

The reason Pepperturbo has given more than once seems more likely to me...its right up there (in the members' eyes) with blue jeans, untucked shirts, and changing shoes at the back of your car.
[/quote]

Interesting how so many want to dislike this or that about certain cultural aspects of private clubs. There might be a day when push carts are common at private clubs, but I don't believe that will happen in my lifetime, least at most private clubs where golf is held up to traditional standards. Where dress codes are appreciated and members "for the most part" know how to behave, regardless of their profession.

But when all is said and done, most "not all" people join private clubs for more then playing "unlimited" golf on manicured tracks at reasonable rates, and or being able to use a push cart. We join because we love playing "tournament" golf, and or socializing around golf with others that take the game serious. But, maybe more important, just not talked about, is to make new, possible lifelong friends with families that have similar lifestyles. Some people won't admit it on here for fear... others might not appreciate it, which I can understand; still it's the biggest motive that contributes towards people willingly joining private clubs and adhering to the club rules, what ever they are.

Push cart, carry, use clubs cart or own a golf cart as I did, means nothing. One example; I like being able to call up a friend and see if he's up for golf elsewhere, even though we have private club membership. It's nice to know he's not trying to get his money's worth or feels obligated to play at the club to justify costs, and he knows how to present himself. I don't have to contend with someone saying I can't afford it, or worry they won't know how to behave or dress when meeting people that they wouldn't otherwise come into contact with.

Saying that in no way is meant to demean anyone that doesn't have the resources, or just chooses not to join a nice private club for their own reasons... it's to say, when I ask someone to play golf like a few days ago, and his response is "oh, that course is too expensive", even though I respect him for his honesty, two things happened. He sort of felt bad to have to say "that course is too expensive", and he only plays muni's. I felt bad for him because some of us are sensitive to those types of odd situations. There alone shows sometimes our lifestyles separates friends even if it's not intended. At private clubs that's not likely to occur.
[/quote]

Come on, Pepper. For all your pomp, did C.B. MacDonald ever ever SEE a golf cart in his life?

[Noles]

I am surprised that clubs which have a rule against push carts are not flexible enough to waive the rule when they have a junior tournament. Especially one involving kids 10-13.

[Mike_C]

Thanks for bumping an old thread.....

The club I joined last fall has an interesting policy with regard to push carts. They are fully allowed, with a twist. If you live in the community around the course, you can use your own, but if you don't, you have to use one of the club's own push carts.

Which is odd, since they don't charge for them (but I think they did a year or so ago before I joined), I have my own, but they one's they have are fairly new Sun Mountain models', quite nice, I have no problem using the club's over mine, actually prefer it so I don't have to lug mine out of the car each time.

There is a very active walking group of golfers at the club, so there is no stigma against it.

Now as for me walking in the Texas summer heat, I've given up, especially since each nine has a "heart attack hill", It's between the 5th green and 6th tee on the front and between the 15th green and 16th tee on the back, absolutely painful in the heat....

[HitEmTrue]

Wow, I posted in this thread almost 4 years ago. Time flies...

[Pweb44]

I didn’t get into all of old post from 4 years ago but it seemed to be some drama was dug up back then. One thing did cross my mind though is some people brought up that the push/pull carts could damage the course if it is wet which I can see if you get some person trying to lug/drag it through an area so wet that the wheel sink down but the course could simply say the push/pull carts would have to stay on the cart path just like the power carts those days. Every course I’ve played has a sign posted when it is cart path only and usually the pro shop and/or starter will tell you when carts are not allowed to drive up the fairway. Sure keeping the push/pull carts on the cart path defeats some of the intended purpose of them but it would help reduce the concern of damage from them on wet fairways and around the green.

To me if a course says you cannot use your own push/pull cart then that is their choice and I truly believe it is more to do with revenue captured by renting power or their own in house carts for walkers. I’m sure there are some private courses this rule is due to the stuffy board members that don’t like push/pull carts personally so they were able to get enough votes to have the board banned them from the course.

[TKD24]

I love old threads...

Our course doesn't allow push/pull carts because of the caddy program. The majority would prefer to keep the caddy program if it had to come to choosing between the two, but the discussion has come up many times during meetings, and they are confident that allowing push/pull carts would basically destroy something the club has been building up and working on for 25+ years now.

Personally, I think I was 50/50 2 years ago, but now I definitely lean towards the caddy program (might have to do with the fact that I have 2 kids now). There are some great kids trying to make some summer and after-school money by spending time on a golf course and learning more about the game. Really can't go wrong there.

[Pweb44]

TKD24 I can see if the course has caddies then I can appreciate the point of not allowing push/pull carts in those cases. Having caddies available can be great for people that may be there for the first time and having a very good caddie that will explain about the course, let you know if there are trouble areas to avoid and such as they know the course can enhance the round. If the caddie is friendly then they simply add to the experience for the day. Also as you mentioned if the course offers a caddie service then it means it is creating jobs for the local kids (or adults for that matter) which is a benefit to the local economy. My beef is more with the courses that will try to prevent people using their own push/pull carts and force you to either rent the pull cart they have onsite or only provide a power cart option over walking. IMO these are the courses that are trying to nickel and dime the paying patron which is all part of business but would not be a course I would prefer to support.

I personally do not have a push/pull cart currently I usually carry my stand bag and walk most courses unless on vacation in which I’ll use a power cart when included in the green fee. I did have a pull cart several years ago when I started out but it was due to the fact I was using on old single strap leather bag that was heavy to carry and I found my shoulders and back were getting tired by the 14th or 15th hole most times. The pull cart allowed me to get through the round back in those days without the pain form carrying a heavy bag around. Now that I have a good stand bag with dual shoulder straps carrying is a breeze.

[someon3]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1283277070' post='2671559']
[quote name='thechief16' timestamp='1283266423' post='2671175']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1283265522' post='2671149']
Our club does not allow push carts. There is no (obvious to me) monetary issue here. You walk you pay a trail fee - ride you pay (the same) cart fee. Or you pay a caddie a good bit more, but virtually no members choose this on anything but a rare exception basis.

A number of members are strongly opposed to allowing push carts because their experience (at other clubs) is that some folks are not at all careful with where they 'push their carts' (particularly in very wet weather) and conditions around and on the greens will suffer.

I have no opinion regarding the validity of the concerns, but it didn't come from 'management'.

dave
[/quote]

They charge you to walk? That seems ludicrous.
[/quote]

By the same token - walkers still take divots and "damage" the course as much as the cart renters.

The course doesn't stay pretty on it's own. It costs.
[/quote]
It seems you think "they charge you to walk?" meant he was surprised to be charged a green fee while walking. He was shocked to hear a walker was charged the way a cart was charged along with the green fee. The analogy would be I charge you $50 for a green fee and $10 for a lunch at the turn. If you don't want the lunch I'm still charging you for it.

[Startzel]

Can someone explain to me how riding in a golf cart is classier than using a push/pull cart?

I can see clearly why walking with a caddie is the best way to play. But, walking with a pull cart has to be classier than riding in cart?

[QDS]

If they didnt allow you to have your bag on a hand cart, and you normally dont carry your clubs, why didnt you just get a caddy to carry your clubs for the round?

[vandyfan]

Reviving this old thread to see if opinions have changed or sharpened on this topic. There are several courses (both private clubs and "high end" public courses) that do not allow pushcarts which I don't really follow. Private club we can leave aside since private clubs have rules and if you don't like them then don't join. But the public courses have me scratching my head. A few things to note (1) the courses are very walkable in that there aren't long distances from green to next tee (2) they allow you to walk so it isn't a pace of play issue (3) the courses call themselves "links style" which is (a) laughable because we are in Nashville TN and (b) most true links courses would allow a push cart (4) they charge you a cart fee whether you walk or take the cart so no one is missing out on revenue.

 

So why post about this? I just find it funny that many of the best courses in the world (ex. Pinehurst No 4/2, Old Course, Bandon, etc) not only allow pushcarts but supply them to visitors but these resort courses don't allow them. Is it because they don't like the look of them? Damage to the course? (really curious on that one) Afraid golf might be confused with a physical activity? Any supers or GMs that want to jump in here please let me know because I think if you have a nice course the best way to appreciate it is to walk it and many more people would walk if they had a push cart. I walk whenever I can and when I ride in a golf cart (especially on days when it is Cart Path Only) my experience is significantly diminished. 

 

PS - One funny reason I got was from a GM who said "we prefer our golf course to have a traditional look and we don't see push carts as part of that traditional, classic history." Oh yes, I long for the days of Sarazen, Jones and Hagen zipping around in their EZ-GO golf carts with GPS screens on them and absurdly large and ostentatious clubhouses with flat screen tvs throughout. YES CLASSIC GOLF!