No push carts allowed?!?!

[Hawkeye77]

13 minutes ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

Reviving this old thread to see if opinions have changed or sharpened on this topic. There are several courses (both private clubs and "high end" public courses) that do not allow pushcarts which I don't really follow. Private club we can leave aside since private clubs have rules and if you don't like them then don't join. But the public courses have me scratching my head. A few things to note (1) the courses are very walkable in that there aren't long distances from green to next tee (2) they allow you to walk so it isn't a pace of play issue (3) the courses call themselves "links style" which is (a) laughable because we are in Nashville TN and (b) most true links courses would allow a push cart (4) they charge you a cart fee whether you walk or take the cart so no one is missing out on revenue.

 

So why post about this? I just find it funny that many of the best courses in the world (ex. Pinehurst No 4/2, Old Course, Bandon, etc) not only allow pushcarts but supply them to visitors but these resort courses don't allow them. Is it because they don't like the look of them? Damage to the course? (really curious on that one) Afraid golf might be confused with a physical activity? Any supers or GMs that want to jump in here please let me know because I think if you have a nice course the best way to appreciate it is to walk it and many more people would walk if they had a push cart. I walk whenever I can and when I ride in a golf cart (especially on days when it is Cart Path Only) my experience is significantly diminished. 

 

PS - One funny reason I got was from a GM who said "we prefer our golf course to have a traditional look and we don't see push carts as part of that traditional, classic history." Oh yes, I long for the days of Sarazen, Jones and Hagen zipping around in their EZ-GO golf carts with GPS screens on them and absurdly large and ostentatious clubhouses with flat screen tvs throughout. YES CLASSIC GOLF!

Public courses have rules and if you don't like them don't play them, no different than private clubs.

 

All of the reasons pretty well discussed 11 years ago - it's situational, some it's money, some it might be some other reason or combination of reasons.  Our course has pull carts sitting around for free use and almost never get used.  People are generally wired to ride, there are groups out there I wouldn't want to follow if they were walking, lol.  Some resorts monitor pace of play through their carts and sell stuff via the carts and on and on.  

 

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[Abh159]

15 minutes ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

Reviving this old thread to see if opinions have changed or sharpened on this topic. There are several courses (both private clubs and "high end" public courses) that do not allow pushcarts which I don't really follow. Private club we can leave aside since private clubs have rules and if you don't like them then don't join. But the public courses have me scratching my head. A few things to note (1) the courses are very walkable in that there aren't long distances from green to next tee (2) they allow you to walk so it isn't a pace of play issue (3) the courses call themselves "links style" which is (a) laughable because we are in Nashville TN and (b) most true links courses would allow a push cart (4) they charge you a cart fee whether you walk or take the cart so no one is missing out on revenue.

 

So why post about this? I just find it funny that many of the best courses in the world (ex. Pinehurst No 4/2, Old Course, Bandon, etc) not only allow pushcarts but supply them to visitors but these resort courses don't allow them. Is it because they don't like the look of them? Damage to the course? (really curious on that one) Afraid golf might be confused with a physical activity? Any supers or GMs that want to jump in here please let me know because I think if you have a nice course the best way to appreciate it is to walk it and many more people would walk if they had a push cart. I walk whenever I can and when I ride in a golf cart (especially on days when it is Cart Path Only) my experience is significantly diminished. 

 

PS - One funny reason I got was from a GM who said "we prefer our golf course to have a traditional look and we don't see push carts as part of that traditional, classic history." Oh yes, I long for the days of Sarazen, Jones and Hagen zipping around in their EZ-GO golf carts with GPS screens on them and absurdly large and ostentatious clubhouses with flat screen tvs throughout. YES CLASSIC GOLF!

 

 

I can't answer for the courses you are talking about specifically, but I imagine there are a number of reasons resort/public courses don't allow push carts. I'm also guessing a lot of these have already been mentioned in this thread at some point over time.

• Resort courses are typically for tourists not for local daily play so the people playing wouldn't usually be bringing their own pushcart. Therefore, the course would have to supply them and that is just another piece of equipment that needs to be purchased, maintained, and replaced. 
• People (for the most part) know they aren't supposed to drive a cart onto the tee box or green, but they don't know or don't think it's wrong to do that with a push cart. Plus all of the carts I've used at resort courses recently will literally shut off if you get too close to the tee or green with it
• Those courses may allow walking, but I'm guessing they don't encourage it. Walking usually (not always) slows down play and public/resort courses want to get as many golfers in and out of there in a day as humanly possible

[Argonne69]

19 hours ago, Abh159 said:

 

 

I can't answer for the courses you are talking about specifically, but I imagine there are a number of reasons resort/public courses don't allow push carts. I'm also guessing a lot of these have already been mentioned in this thread at some point over time.

• Resort courses are typically for tourists not for local daily play so the people playing wouldn't usually be bringing their own pushcart. Therefore, the course would have to supply them and that is just another piece of equipment that needs to be purchased, maintained, and replaced. 
• People (for the most part) know they aren't supposed to drive a cart onto the tee box or green, but they don't know or don't think it's wrong to do that with a push cart. Plus all of the carts I've used at resort courses recently will literally shut off if you get too close to the tee or green with it
• Those courses may allow walking, but I'm guessing they don't encourage it. Walking usually (not always) slows down play and public/resort courses want to get as many golfers in and out of there in a day as humanly possible

 

Lol. If riding sped up play every resort course in the world would be bragging about their sub-4 hour rounds. Until players are required to get a license to use a powered cart, the yahoos who ride and don't know how to play ready golf will continue to set the (slow) pace.

 

Sorry, but people do not know that they're not supposed to drive a cart on to a teebox or near the green. I've seen it waaaay too many times. They have to be taught the rules. If a course can teach players how to use a riding cart, they can certainly teach players how to use a push/pull cart if they believe it will/can cause damage.

 

If a course allows walking, then there's absolutely no reason not to allow push/pull carts. They don't have to provide them, although many do (e.g. Bandon, St Andrews), but not allowing a player to use their own trolley is ridiculous. 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

It was not that long ago that Pinehurst Resort and CC did not allow pull carts/push carts/trolley's (pick your name). Long ago I asked why and the answer was kind of vague. Now they are common and the club even supplies them. 

 

Times change. Earlier Covid regulations and one cart per golfer was a factor in this, but over-all I think that this is just a different perspective on what 'high end golf' is vs. several years ago. 

 

dave

[davep043]

21 hours ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

So why post about this? I just find it funny that many of the best courses in the world (ex. Pinehurst No 4/2, Old Course, Bandon, etc) not only allow pushcarts but supply them to visitors but these resort courses don't allow them.

 

21 hours ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

PS - One funny reason I got was from a GM who said "we prefer our golf course to have a traditional look and we don't see push carts as part of that traditional, classic history."

Those folks have apparently never played the reasonably traditional courses like the Old Course at St Andrews, Carnoustie, Prestwick, Ballybunion, Lahinch, and dozens (probably hundreds) more where the locals are almost always seen using trolleys.  

[2bGood]

On 8/31/2010 at 5:22 AM, Rohlio said:

I never understand the arguments against push carts...there is a lot less pressure on the ground from a 25lb. golf bag sitting on a three wheeled push cart than from a 250 lb. a hole and his pounding footsteps. By this kind of logic we should charge fat people more to walk on or around the green/teebox.

In my opinion it is very simply a money issue. The course is trying to fleece you for cart fee's or caddy fees knowing full well that most guys who use a push cart do so because although they like to walk their back won't hold up to carrying the bag.

I generally find members who are opposed to push carts to be the same ones who saunter out of their cart that they just drove right down the middle of the fairway and then proceed to move their belly out of the way while trying to look down and see the ball. Not all but certainly seems to be a trend.

FYI there are few really good study that looks at the damage caused by carry v push carts v drive. - here is one that ran some of  the numbers - The numbers on cart damage

 

Push carts cause (or have the potential to cause) significantly more damage than carrying a bag, mainly because the wheels are in constant contact with the ground. 

 

I think banning push/pull carts is ridiculous, but I post this as reminder for all golfers to be mindful where they take carts and not to assume they cause no issue.

[GooseHook]

At my club, we have a rule that you can't take your own pushcart and must rent the club's carts. After two years I've concluded that there are only two factors that keep this rule in place:

1. A loud minority of old members who want to remain stuck with their ideals, and

2. The head pro pocketing  revenue from renting out the carts. 

 

If people just came out and said that, I'd be more inclined to support it because at least that's honest. I've heard the arguments about "the looks" of members unloading carts in the lot, but more than half the members change their shoes in the lot and do the same with their bags. Using the club's carts would also be fine, if the model they force us to rent wasn't crappy. It's a base model Bag Boy Quad from a few years ago and half of the cart brakes don't work. My Quad XL is easily worth twice the money and presents much better visually...and IT WORKS! My back isn't great and carrying in hot weather is tough for me due to some skin issues, but when I first learned about the rule I bought an ultralight bag almost out of spite. I'd rather pay ~250 for a lightweight bag than shell out 7 or 8 bucks for every round to use a piece of gear that sucks and isn't my own property. 

 

I understand the cart damage argument, but I've seen tens of members drive their full size carts up and around the greens and in areas doing orders of magnitude more damage. 

[david.c.w]

45 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

FYI there are few really good study that looks at the damage caused by carry v push carts v drive. - here is one that ran some of  the numbers - The numbers on cart damage

 

Push carts cause (or have the potential to cause) significantly more damage than carrying a bag, mainly because the wheels are in constant contact with the ground. 

 

I think banning push/pull carts is ridiculous, but I post this as reminder for all golfers to be mindful where they take carts and not to assume they cause no issue.

 

Interesting math to show that a push cart has 7x more impact to the course.  I would venture to say that the likelihood of significant damage is not that great, but I will say that at our course, you can see in the Bermuda grass where push carts have been, but not where full size carts have been.  Granted you see it a lot where full size carts would never go, like between tees and the start of the fairway.  But the push cart tracks are very obvious throughout the course.  Not sure if this is considered some sort of damage or just cosmetic.  My guess is a bit of both.  I am headed to Bandon Dunes at the end of October and while I will probably have a caddie all my rounds, I am interested in seeing these wide wheel push carts that they encourage to roll ONTO THE GREENS.

 

As an aside, I have started walking more the past few years, and probably walk 90% of the rounds in the fall/winter (summer too hot).  I tried several push carts and at the end of the day I found it easier to carry, perhaps due to our course being fairly hilly.  Pushing a cart up the hill or holding it from rolling down is awkward and generally uncomfortable.  However I can see it being a breeze on a flatter course.

 

 

 

 

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, david.c.w said:

I am headed to Bandon Dunes at the end of October and while I will probably have a caddie all my rounds, I am interested in seeing these wide wheel push carts that they encourage to roll ONTO THE GREENS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The thing to remember about places like Bandon and Cabot that allow the carts to go across the greens is that the grass/soil is not the same as most places in North America. It's much firmer and the grass (fescue) is a lot more tolerant.

 

We didn't make a single ball mark at Cabot the day after it poured rain overnight.

[mneumann]

My buddy's private club does not allow outside push carts. Not a revenue thing because the guest fee is the guest fee whether you walk and carry, take a club cart, or a riding cart (or if I ride in my buddy's cart). 

 

I showed up once with my push cart and they made me put it away and take one of theirs. The guy was super cool about it and I asked him why. He said 2 things, one the club wants a consistent look ( which I laughed at because they made me put away my black clicgear to take their black clicgear, but he explained they had to be consistent or people would drag any old cart out there). Number 2 was the super was concerned about foreign material specifically fungus and such being transferred from other courses on the wheels of the push cart. Made enough sense to me and I'm a guest so I do what they ask 

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, david.c.w said:

 

Interesting math to show that a push cart has 7x more impact to the course.  I would venture to say that the likelihood of significant damage is not that great, but I will say that at our course, you can see in the Bermuda grass where push carts have been, but not where full size carts have been.  Granted you see it a lot where full size carts would never go, like between tees and the start of the fairway.  But the push cart tracks are very obvious throughout the course.  Not sure if this is considered some sort of damage or just cosmetic.  My guess is a bit of both.  I am headed to Bandon Dunes at the end of October and while I will probably have a caddie all my rounds, I am interested in seeing these wide wheel push carts that they encourage to roll ONTO THE GREENS.

 

As an aside, I have started walking more the past few years, and probably walk 90% of the rounds in the fall/winter (summer too hot).  I tried several push carts and at the end of the day I found it easier to carry, perhaps due to our course being fairly hilly.  Pushing a cart up the hill or holding it from rolling down is awkward and generally uncomfortable.  However I can see it being a breeze on a flatter course.

 

 

 

 

The type of turf/grass/conditions etc play a big role. I have been on the greens committee off and on at our course for 20years and we can see a big difference in damage from push carts v carrying golfer. This happen particularly in the winter when we see lots of rain. The push carts all travel similar paths to get around greens and really cause some big damage that later results in compaction and can even present as hydrophobic areas over the summer. We now make a point of roping off areas to force the push carts over to paths or away from high play areas. 

 

I am like you though, I walk and carry almost all of my rounds as I find carrying easier than pushing the cart. 

[miamistomp]

18 minutes ago, mneumann said:

My buddy's private club does not allow outside push carts. Not a revenue thing because the guest fee is the guest fee whether you walk and carry, take a club cart, or a riding cart (or if I ride in my buddy's cart). 

 

I showed up once with my push cart and they made me put it away and take one of theirs. The guy was super cool about it and I asked him why. He said 2 things, one the club wants a consistent look ( which I laughed at because they made me put away my black clicgear to take their black clicgear, but he explained they had to be consistent or people would drag any old cart out there). Number 2 was the super was concerned about foreign material specifically fungus and such being transferred from other courses on the wheels of the push cart. Made enough sense to me and I'm a guest so I do what they ask 

 Did you have to use their shoes also, to prevent other course contamination ?

  

[Argonne69]

1 hour ago, miamistomp said:

 Did you have to use their shoes also, to prevent other course contamination ?

  

 

Lol. They probably get the shoes from the local bowling alley.

 

[GooseHook]

18 hours ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Lol. They probably get the shoes from the local bowling alley.

 

And heaven forbid if you use a plastic tee, carrying foreign seed and disease from other courses to your home tee boxes 🙂

 

I guess you have to draw the line somewhere though. I was always of the opinion that 3/4 wheeled cart spread out the weight enough that there wasn't much of a concern for turf wear, at least compared to someone above 200lbs with aggressive spikes. 

[2bGood]

10 minutes ago, GooseHook said:

I guess you have to draw the line somewhere though. I was always of the opinion that 3/4 wheeled cart spread out the weight enough that there wasn't much of a concern for turf wear, at least compared to someone above 200lbs with aggressive spikes. 

 

Do these carts push themselves with no golfer behind them? 😉

 

With the push cart you still get the golfer (of what over size and with what ever spikes) and then the cart in addition. 

 

Truth is push carts cause more wear than a walking golfer, logic and plenty of studies support this. By the way I think it is crazy to ban in them in any situation.

[Argonne69]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

Do these carts push themselves with no golfer behind them? 😉

 

With the push cart you still get the golfer (of what over size and with what ever spikes) and then the cart in addition. 

 

Truth is push carts cause more wear than a walking golfer, logic and plenty of studies support this. By the way I think it is crazy to ban in them in any situation.

 

Isn't that walker carrying 20+ lbs of gear?

 

If pushcarts caused damage they'd be banned on practically every course. Instead, push carts are allowed on what, 99.99% of courses?

 

[david.c.w]

 

54 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

 

Isn't that walker carrying 20+ lbs of gear?

 

If pushcarts caused damage they'd be banned on practically every course. Instead, push carts are allowed on what, 99.99% of courses?

 

 

What @2bGood is saying is that the push cart has compounding damage to the course, especially around greens and high traffic areas.  I did some quick math and here is the additional turf impact to the course on a 500 yard par 5, assuming walking in a straight line from tee to green.

 

500 yards

6,000 feet

72,000 inches

216,000 in^2 per wheel assuming 3" wheel width

648,000 in^2 per wheel assuming 3 wheeled cart

 

This totals up to 4,500 ft^2 of additional turf impact per hole per push cart (on top of the person walking).

 

Will you see ruts made from push carts?  Probably not.

Will you see compacted turf in high traffic areas?  Absolutely.

 

 

[Purple Toupee]

On 9/22/2021 at 11:06 AM, 2bGood said:

FYI there are few really good study that looks at the damage caused by carry v push carts v drive. - here is one that ran some of  the numbers - The numbers on cart damage

 

Push carts cause (or have the potential to cause) significantly more damage than carrying a bag, mainly because the wheels are in constant contact with the ground. 

 

I think banning push/pull carts is ridiculous, but I post this as reminder for all golfers to be mindful where they take carts and not to assume they cause no issue.

This isn’t a study, it’s just a list of psi measurements and estimated areas covered by different modes of traveling the course.  Then the author just assumes causation.  He certainly didn’t study anything to see if it was true.  There would have to be a minimum psi for noticeable damage to occur.  Does the author know that value, because it is never mentioned?  Let’s say you need a minimum psi of 5 to cause damage.  If that’s the case, using a pull cart would be no worse than walking and carrying.  An actual study would try to find that out.

[Argonne69]

1 hour ago, david.c.w said:

 

 

What @2bGood is saying is that the push cart has compounding damage to the course, especially around greens and high traffic areas.  I did some quick math and here is the additional turf impact to the course on a 500 yard par 5, assuming walking in a straight line from tee to green.

 

500 yards

6,000 feet

72,000 inches

216,000 in^2 per wheel assuming 3" wheel width

648,000 in^2 per wheel assuming 3 wheeled cart

 

This totals up to 4,500 ft^2 of additional turf impact per hole per push cart (on top of the person walking).

 

Will you see ruts made from push carts?  Probably not.

Will you see compacted turf in high traffic areas?  Absolutely.

 

 

 

You're simply transferring the pressure from the person to the wheeled cart. The 20 lb bag and 18 lb pushcart has ~9 square inches of surface area, or 4.2 psi. That 20 lb bag on the 200 player carrying is spread across ~8 square inches each time the player takes a step, or an additional 2.5 psi on top of the 25 psi the walker applies.

 

I don't believe the extra 1.7 psi of the pushcart amounts to a hill of beans. 

 

[dubbelbogey]

That "study" isn't a very rigorous take on it. It actually needs to measure actual additional damage, not make it through questionable inference. 

 

 

[bladehunter]

I’m as stick in the mud as anyone.  But this is beyond stupidity.   Traditional look ?  Do they have 3 wheels golf carts with a tiller instead of a steering wheel ?   The idea that a riding cart is more traditional than a guy walking with a push cart is ignorance on display by way of having more $ than brains.  
 

I might respect a “ walking only “ policy with no pushcarts.  But if you’re letting riders on the course you lose all credibility by banning push carts.  

[Argonne69]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

I’m as stick in the mud as anyone.  But this is beyond stupidity.   Traditional look ?  Do they have 3 wheels golf carts with a tiller instead of a steering wheel ?   The idea that a riding cart is more traditional than a guy walking with a push cart is ignorance on display by way of having more $ than brains.  
 

I might respect a “ walking only “ policy with no pushcarts.  But if you’re letting riders on the course you lose all credibility by banning push carts.  

 

No kidding. Ever seen someone riding at the St Andrews Golf Links? You'll see plenty of trolleys in use. 

 

[Shilgy]

I believe the disconnect is that going back years in the US the private clubs had caddies and the munis had push carts. I’m not saying that generalization is correct but it certainly is the belief…especially in the Northeast and Midwest where the oldest established clubs are. 
 My private club we have all sorts of devices available.  The club has riding carts available(same as most courses everywhere except the UK) at a reasonable daily fee as well as a limited availability ten year plan….we have two and three wheel push carts provided by the club that the daily fee recently was changed from a small daily fee to no charge.  You can also bring your own push cart…..or as myself and many others have a motorized walking cart….or for a reasonable trail fee a member can use their own two person golf cart or one of the motorcycle style golf carts.

   Oh, and one member “rides” the single wheel skateboard style motorized “cart”.

  Or of course you can still walk and carry.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Argonne69 said:

 

No kidding. Ever seen someone riding at the St Andrews Golf Links? You'll see plenty of trolleys in use. 

 

They do have a few "buggies" (power carts) available at the Old Course - medical permission required and will be driven by a caddie (fee involved).  There are also days where trolleys (push/pull carts) are not permitted until after 12 PM - assists the caddies.

[bladehunter]

Now that’s an angle I hadn’t considered.  If the course has a caddie barn full of loopers , sign me up.  I’d much rather have a guy to carry for me and read my putts. Lol.  But I doubt that’s the issue. 

[larrybud]

On 9/22/2021 at 12:03 PM, david.c.w said:

 

Interesting math to show that a push cart has 7x more impact to the course.  I would venture to say that the likelihood of significant damage is not that great, but I will say that at our course, you can see in the Bermuda grass where push carts have been, but not where full size carts have been. 

 

I think their numbers are old for push carts, since they refer to "pull carts" which are 2 wheels. I rarely see anybody with a "pull cart" and I'm pretty sure you can't buy them new anymore.

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by larrybud

[Purple Toupee]

26 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

I think their numbers are old for push carts, since they refer to "pull carts" which are 2 wheels. I rarely see anybody with a "pull cart" and I'm pretty sure you can't buy them new anymore.

 

Yes, the article (I refuse to call it a “study”) is from 2004.

[dugue4]

2 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

I think their numbers are old for push carts, since they refer to "pull carts" which are 2 wheels. I rarely see anybody with a "pull cart" and I'm pretty sure you can't buy them new anymore.

 

yes you can🙂

https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/tour-gear-tg-2-lightweight-2-wheel-pull-golf-cart?sku=black

[Halebopp]

2 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

I think their numbers are old for push carts, since they refer to "pull carts" which are 2 wheels. I rarely see anybody with a "pull cart" and I'm pretty sure you can't buy them new anymore.

 

 

Here's another one:

 

http://www.clicgear.com/pushcarts/model-6+/

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

Here's another one:

 

http://www.clicgear.com/pushcarts/model-6+/

It’s weird how folks think that cart is meant to be pushed.  Like the defunct(now Bagboy is using the name) Riksha those two wheelers are balance so well they almost roll forward on their own once tipped backwards a bit. Folks that pull those rather that push must really like the extra exertion.