"THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION FORWARD TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT"

[williambenjamin11]

Eightiron, what do you do after the counterfall? I mean what starts your ds or transition?

[moehogan]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294662772' post='2886300']
[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1294605521' post='2884951']
[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294591869' post='2884487']
Dariusz, if I just turn the hips at start of bs, that will result to lateral motion and will make left hip so in front of the ball like Hogan. I mean just rotate the hips as hard as I can. But there's nothing automatic about it. I wait for my bs to end (when I feel the stretching and cocking of wrist to club), then I rotate or turn it as Hogan teaches in his book. How can you automatic the turn of hips?
[/quote]

You would need a help of the rear side of your body and horizontally oriented forces and torques. Building the firm rear side from the ground up and letting the motion happen sequentially also from the ground up will automate totally the linear motion in the pelvis area. The rear hip joint will go where the rear femur will lead it. Since the rotational RoM of ankle joint is much smaller of that of knee joint and the latter is much smaller that this of hip joint, etc. - the sequentiality of reaction for torques is established perfectly from the ground up without leaving any other option left. Consequently, the rotational part is just a natural consequence of the end of linear part since, again, there is no other option left for a biped. As someone (probably Knudson or Trevino) wisely said "lateral shift causes rotation" - which is very true.
IMHO, if you won't use the support of the rear side wall and horizontally oriented forces (say, because you turn your hips and move targetwise during the takeaway, i.e. too early) not only your chances to automate the pelvis area motion are fat but also you won't have big chances to create an optimal momentum in your motion.

Cheers
[/quote]


Dariusz, re "lateral shift causes rotation", Hogan didn't say that. In fact Hogan said entirely the opposite, turn the hips first. Then he said there [b][size="3"]will[/size][/b] be enough lateral motion forward etc etc... That's entirely opposite of what Knudson and Trevino is saying as you quote it.
[/quote]
WB,

Afraid you have misquoted Mr. Hogan's Five Lessons by using "WILL" instead of "MUST". "WILL" implies "as a result of", whereas, "MUST" implies an imperative. On the bottom third of page 90, he clear states:

[i]"To begin the downswing, TURN YOUR HIPS BACK TO THE LEFT. THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION FORWARD TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT. The path the hips take on the downswing is not the exact same path they traveled as they were turned on the backswing. On the downswing, their "arc" should be a trifle wider - both as regards the amount of lateral motion and the amount of eventual rotation around to the rear."

[/i]Cheers,

MH

[williambenjamin11]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1294672158' post='2886473']
[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294646898' post='2886218']
Moehogan, how do you do your lateral move?
[/quote]

I definitely feel the counterfall that eight describes. For me, the swing is a one continuous motion, a constant flow ... so it's hard for me to discern where BS ends and DS starts. I do feel lateral movement before I feel rotation on the DS. Check out the vid below ... I am not a student of this gentleman, but his description of the DS from about 1:15-2:15 is similiar to what I feel.

MH

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5bfIjfEb2s"]My link[/url]
[/quote]


Thanks MH. That's what I've been doing for years. Recently, I start, and I mean really begin, the ds with just turn of hips, and its really very conscious and nothing automatic. It made my day. Been making my day since. When I referred back to 5 lessons of Hogan, that's what he said exactly. I think its worth a try. Hogan said it is the turn of hips that makes you move the body to left (lateral), after end of bs mind you.so its intentional lateral at bs, then at transition you turn hips, which result to further lateral. Try it. I did. Got nothing to lose, just a few bucks for the range balls.

[williambenjamin11]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1294666636' post='2886357']
Gents, vertical forces are always present because our body has its mass and there is gravity in our reality, even if we are standing still. We do not need to use any motions aimed at increasing our weight (such as squatting or preparing to jump) to make vertical forces to act. Every dynamic motion, however, needs horizontal forces to act as well, and the importance of horizontal forces increases in specific situations requiring more than average friction (e.g. starting a motion from zero or changing the orientation of an existing motion). It does not mean that vertical forces ceased to act. It is simple as that, c'mon.
Reverting to Hogan - why do you think he preset the rear side by setting his rear foot perpendicular to the target ? or why he concluded that he needed an additional spike under his rear foot ? to create extra conditions for vertical or horizontal forces to increase and, consequently, to benefit from them ?

Cheers
[/quote]


I have a simple answer--Hogan preset the rear side to avoid overswinging. And i didnt figure that out myself, Hogan said that in 5 Lessons. Just following what he said. This is his forum aint it? And he said also that the turn of hips INAUGURATES the ds. I believe we should just follow Hogan. However, we should follow all he said bec if you miss just one, it wont be Hogan, and it wont be a swing that we all want.

[gvogel]

Just wondering....

Has anyone ever considered that all these body/core/hip movements take care of themselves if one's intention is to get the club swinging correctly at the beginning of the forward swing?

NOt to discount the notion that one can't work to improve body movement, but if one tries to get the club swinging at the beginning of the forward swing, and tries to keep the shoulders quiet, then the club swings out and down towards the ball, and the shoulders follow - just like the LINK above where the instructor keeps turning his shoulders a bit more backward as the hips go left and start to unwind.

Also, if one realizes that the club must go low left after impact to keep the ball from hooking - correct, I said keep the ball from hooking - then, the hips must turn hard through impact to allow for that club head path.

Just wondering... does the body motion make the swinging of the clubhead, or does the swinging clubhead force the movement of the body?

[williambenjamin11]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1294673912' post='2886514']
[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294662772' post='2886300']
[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1294605521' post='2884951']
[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294591869' post='2884487']
Dariusz, if I just turn the hips at start of bs, that will result to lateral motion and will make left hip so in front of the ball like Hogan. I mean just rotate the hips as hard as I can. But there's nothing automatic about it. I wait for my bs to end (when I feel the stretching and cocking of wrist to club), then I rotate or turn it as Hogan teaches in his book. How can you automatic the turn of hips?
[/quote]

You would need a help of the rear side of your body and horizontally oriented forces and torques. Building the firm rear side from the ground up and letting the motion happen sequentially also from the ground up will automate totally the linear motion in the pelvis area. The rear hip joint will go where the rear femur will lead it. Since the rotational RoM of ankle joint is much smaller of that of knee joint and the latter is much smaller that this of hip joint, etc. - the sequentiality of reaction for torques is established perfectly from the ground up without leaving any other option left. Consequently, the rotational part is just a natural consequence of the end of linear part since, again, there is no other option left for a biped. As someone (probably Knudson or Trevino) wisely said "lateral shift causes rotation" - which is very true.
IMHO, if you won't use the support of the rear side wall and horizontally oriented forces (say, because you turn your hips and move targetwise during the takeaway, i.e. too early) not only your chances to automate the pelvis area motion are fat but also you won't have big chances to create an optimal momentum in your motion.

Cheers
[/quote]


Dariusz, re "lateral shift causes rotation", Hogan didn't say that. In fact Hogan said entirely the opposite, turn the hips first. Then he said there [b][size="3"]will[/size][/b] be enough lateral motion forward etc etc... That's entirely opposite of what Knudson and Trevino is saying as you quote it.
[/quote]
WB,

Afraid you have misquoted Mr. Hogan's Five Lessons by using "WILL" instead of "MUST". "WILL" implies "as a result of", whereas, "MUST" implies an imperative. On the bottom third of page 90, he clear states:

[i]"To begin the downswing, TURN YOUR HIPS BACK TO THE LEFT. THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION FORWARD TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT. The path the hips take on the downswing is not the exact same path they traveled as they were turned on the backswing. On the downswing, their "arc" should be a trifle wider - both as regards the amount of lateral motion and the amount of eventual rotation around to the rear."

[/i]Cheers,

MH
[/quote]

Oops, pardon me MH. You're correct. But I take Hogan to mean that you still turn the hips first. And I think he meant only the hips. Now, if you turn the hips correctly, there will be enough transfer of weight to left foot. He's just telling us that the transfer must happen, otherwise you're hip turn is wrong. So the lateral is indeed a byproduct of the hip turn and not an act by itself. To further support this, look at the previous pages, ahhh page 87 where he first mentions the hip turn. He said, and I quote:

"... The golfer gets on this second plane--without thinking he is changing planes--when he turn his hips back to the left at the start of downswing. THIS MOVES HIS BODY TO THE LEFT and automatically lowers the right shoulder." (Caps supplied.)

And on page 90, the par right before your quoted par, Hogan said, and I quote:

"THE HIPS INITIATE THE DOWNSWING. They are the pivotal element in the chain action. Starting them first and moving them correctly--this ONE action practically makes the downswing. It creates early speed. IT TRANSFERS THE WEIGHT FROM THE RIGHT FOOT TO THE LEFT FOOT..."

[moehogan]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294674250' post='2886522']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1294672158' post='2886473']
[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294646898' post='2886218']
Moehogan, how do you do your lateral move?
[/quote]

I definitely feel the counterfall that eight describes. For me, the swing is a one continuous motion, a constant flow ... so it's hard for me to discern where BS ends and DS starts. I do feel lateral movement before I feel rotation on the DS. Check out the vid below ... I am not a student of this gentleman, but his description of the DS from about 1:15-2:15 is similiar to what I feel.

MH

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5bfIjfEb2s"]My link[/url]
[/quote]


Thanks MH. That's what I've been doing for years. Recently, I start, and I mean really begin, the ds with just turn of hips, and its really very conscious and nothing automatic. It made my day. Been making my day since. When I referred back to 5 lessons of Hogan, that's what he said exactly. I think its worth a try. Hogan said it is the turn of hips that makes you move the body to left (lateral), after end of bs mind you.so its intentional lateral at bs, then at transition you turn hips, which result to further lateral. Try it. I did. Got nothing to lose, just a few bucks for the range balls.
[/quote]
Funny that I have come from where you are now and vice versa. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree ... proves that there's lots of ways to skin this cat. Glad you found something that works for you ... enjoy!

MH

[williambenjamin11]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1294677245' post='2886613']
[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294674250' post='2886522']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1294672158' post='2886473']
[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294646898' post='2886218']
Moehogan, how do you do your lateral move?
[/quote]

I definitely feel the counterfall that eight describes. For me, the swing is a one continuous motion, a constant flow ... so it's hard for me to discern where BS ends and DS starts. I do feel lateral movement before I feel rotation on the DS. Check out the vid below ... I am not a student of this gentleman, but his description of the DS from about 1:15-2:15 is similiar to what I feel.

MH

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5bfIjfEb2s"]My link[/url]
[/quote]


Thanks MH. That's what I've been doing for years. Recently, I start, and I mean really begin, the ds with just turn of hips, and its really very conscious and nothing automatic. It made my day. Been making my day since. When I referred back to 5 lessons of Hogan, that's what he said exactly. I think its worth a try. Hogan said it is the turn of hips that makes you move the body to left (lateral), after end of bs mind you.so its intentional lateral at bs, then at transition you turn hips, which result to further lateral. Try it. I did. Got nothing to lose, just a few bucks for the range balls.
[/quote]
Funny that I have come from where you are now and vice versa. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree ... proves that there's lots of ways to skin this cat. Glad you found something that works for you ... enjoy!

MH
[/quote]

Yup, let's agree to disagree. But maybe you are doing the hip turn incorrectly? (Sorry, can't help myself to stop now.. Insomnia.. ) and in trying out the different ways to turn the hips, my checkpoints are: there should be a lateral move of body, and there must be weight transfer from right foot to left. If one is not happening, the hip turn is done improperly. Anyway...

[williambenjamin11]

[quote name='gvogel' timestamp='1294675485' post='2886558']
Just wondering....

Has anyone ever considered that all these body/core/hip movements take care of themselves if one's intention is to get the club swinging correctly at the beginning of the forward swing?

NOt to discount the notion that one can't work to improve body movement, but if one tries to get the club swinging at the beginning of the forward swing, and tries to keep the shoulders quiet, then the club swings out and down towards the ball, and the shoulders follow - just like the LINK above where the instructor keeps turning his shoulders a bit more backward as the hips go left and start to unwind.

Also, if one realizes that the club must go low left after impact to keep the ball from hooking - correct, I said keep the ball from hooking - then, the hips must turn hard through impact to allow for that club head path.

Just wondering... does the body motion make the swinging of the clubhead, or does the swinging clubhead force the movement of the body?
[/quote]

But gvogel, that's not what Hogan said.

[rok78]

The problem with trying to discern actual movements from an individual's feel is there will be differences in interpretation. Hogan said in the Tschetter book that all he did and could do was describe his feels.

One person may need to feel pure rotation while another may need to feel lateral movement in order to end up at the same place. You will end up going in circles trying to define mechanics from feels.

[tembolo1284]

This is a fascinating topic. Some comments:

Sadly what Hogan wrote is not always what he did.

I think Hogan had a very unique transition move. There is no question he moved weight to the right leg and actually moved his head off the ball. This is true especially for the longest clubs. The unique thing with Hogan was before he completed his backswing, he had actually already moved his head and body back to its original position at address. This back and forth move before he was done with his backswing means he was already more laterally positioned toward the target than most of us. Most of us (especially those that swing using 'classical' instruction) move to our right, then bump and move our hip laterally and THEN turn the hips to the left. I think Hogan was different. He already had moved a bit to his left before his backswing was done.... and combined with his backswing continuing it created so much torque that he had nowhere to go but left. So I think he truly believed that all he had to do was start his downswing by turning his hips to the left (as he wrote). He also said there must be enough lateral motion...but he never said WHEN to do it!!!!!!! I think everyone has assumed for the longest that you shift to the right, complete the backswing, and THEN move to the left a bit and THEN turn the hips. But this is not what Hogan did. If you, incorrectly, move to your right leg and then just start the downswing by turning your hips to your left, you will be dead, 100% of the time. You will never be able to get enough weight on your left side and you will most likely come way over the top. This is why, also incorrectly, many people say Hogan looks very 'stacked' at the top of his swing. It's true but don't tell me that he didn't move weight to his right leg, because he definitely does.

So to answer your question, follow Hogan and go back into your right leg...and before you complete your backswing you should be already moving laterally and turning. This way when you actually do begin your downswing, you will be so torqued up that all you will need to consciously think about is turning to the left...your coil and the momentum you built up moving toward the target during your backswing will throw you plenty laterally. Isn't Hogan a genius?

[JOEGOLFWRX]

wouldn't cranking up vertical forces stabilize a violent hip dominated action.

[williambenjamin11]

I think there's no inconsistency with what Hogan said and what he did. Here's my take on what he did and said:

1. In bs, his hips did not move laterally to the right but he transferred weight "internally" or put pressure on his right foot as eightiron said. Hogan said he maintained the angle in his right leg, and that's what he did;

2. He moved his head a little to the right but mainly because his upper body is tilted right at address and its turning during bs;

3. While doing that and still during bs, he is falling off to left as eightiron said, but mainly its his left hip that is moving targetwards. At end of bs (before transition), his left hip is already aligned or stacked with his left ankle. He didn't say this, but its clear in his videos. So no inconsistency with what he did and say. And I think the alignment of left hip and ankle is very important bec that really helps the next move--starting the ds with turn of hips. I find I can't turn hips properly and fast if the alignment is not there. So maybe that's why Hogan aligned it first during bs. (I'm wondering if we can do the alignment at setup so no need for lateral or fall off move during BS). Anyway...

4. Then, as the bs has ended, he started the ds by turning the hips first. Hogan used the words "start" and "inaugurates" and only says "hips". And I think that's what he did. He said when you start the ds by turning the hips, "this moves the body to the left" and "this transfers the weight from the right foot to the left foot". He also said there must be enough lateral motion forward. Note that this is already in the DS and after the lateral move or falling-off during BS. So its an additional or further lateral move left. That's why Hogan's belt buckle is so in front of ball. So if you're turning your hips without moving the body left, transferring weight or enough lateral motion during that or as a result of the turning of hips, you're not turning the hips as Hogan did. The turning I belive is the most diffcult to master among Hogan's lessons. He even saaid he studied film reels/strips of players to study just how the hips turn or moves.

5. Upon starting the ds with hips, its just one fluid motion of the shoulders, arms then hands. He said these. He even said people are skeptic when he says this and he said that when he said these, people are saying "oh that's ok for Hogan who has practically slept in the golf course...etc or something to that effect. Heck, in shell gollf match video MH posted, Hogan even said that the most impt in golf swing is starting the ds with turn of hips and even described how to do it. I studied that turn of hips for days. I tried to look like that and when I did, my swing performed like Hogan too relatively that is

6. The beauty of it is I can't ott whatever I do. As Hogan said, you are forced to hit inside out and you're the captive of your own swing.

[williambenjamin11]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1294680577' post='2886732']
My interpretation is that Hogan underlined that there must be enough lateral motion onto lead foot so that starting the downswing with rotation of the hips have sense. You surely can start turn your hips while having majority of the weight on the rear side which will be a recipee for a disaster.
Hogan wanted to say, IMO, that the lateral shift is indispensable and did not sacrificed more than this only one sentence to this phenomenon because it was unintentional for him and he merely felt it.

Cheers
[/quote]

Dariusz, i think i did not make myself clear. There is lateral during bs, with the objective of putting left hip on top of left ankle. Then, when you have that, you can now star the ds with just the turn of hips. That turn of hips will make your body move left or lateral again or further. But in this case, the lateral is only a byproduct of the main action which is the hip turn. The jip turn will only be a recipe for disaster if you have majority of weight on right foot AND your left hip is NOT on top of or aligned with left ankle. Thats why i believe hogan made a lateral DURIG BS--in order to align the left hip with left ankle, so that he can turn the hips, which in turn moves the body to left again/further and transfers weight from right foot to left foot (which he clearly said in his book as i quoted above).

Wow, this lead me to another questionning, do you need to have weight on left foot (vertical forces as eightiron said) at end of bs and star of ds? Hogan said that the turn of hips first to start/inaugurate/initiate the ds transfers the weight from right foot to left foot, right? So does that mean Hogan does not have weight on left foot YET at end of bs and start of ds? So the purpose of the lateral or falloff during bs of Hogan is to merely align or put left hip on top of left so he can turn properly? Also, he said its ok to lift the ankle during the bs, right? And thats what he did also. So there is no need to put weight on left foot during bs, then when you turn hips to start ds, the weight will automatically transfer to the right foot as the body moves left also?

Let me rephrase the questionning for clarity's sake--in addition to putting your left hip on top of left ankle at end of bs, is there a need to also put weight on left foot? This questionning considering that Hogan lifted his left heel even at end of bs, and he said its the hip turn that moves body to left and moves weight from right foot to left foot.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1294666636' post='2886357']
Gents, vertical forces are always present because our body has its mass and there is gravity in our reality, even if we are standing still. We do not need to use any motions aimed at increasing our weight (such as squatting or preparing to jump) to make vertical forces to act. Every dynamic motion, however, needs horizontal forces to act as well, and the importance of horizontal forces increases in specific situations requiring more than average friction (e.g. starting a motion from zero or changing the orientation of an existing motion). It does not mean that vertical forces ceased to act. It is simple as that, c'mon.
Reverting to Hogan - why do you think he preset the rear side by setting his rear foot perpendicular to the target ? or why he concluded that he needed an additional spike under his rear foot ? to create extra conditions for vertical or horizontal forces to increase and, consequently, to benefit from them ?

Cheers
[/quote]

Dj ,

You keep altering the picture ...... the original point you put forward is that the horizontal forces / friction and a firm right side automatically produce the same cog shift as Hogan made ( post 1950 etc ).......... add that to the right side pulling notion you state Hogan made and I kinda wonder what it ends up looking like

So you are of the opinion that the real experts , 20 years biomedical engineers are indeed wrong about what causes the center of mass to start moving left ? I mean i want to know cause a lot of people need to get refunds off these experts !

the right foot, how can it be perpendicular to the target if he is using a closed stance , extra spike , way too much made of that , just like he said in power golf , he liked to dig in , athletic stance and add some push off the cleats for extra distance

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1294742146' post='2888559']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1294740400' post='2888546']Dj ,

You keep altering the picture ...... the original point you put forward is that the horizontal forces / friction and a firm right side automatically produce the same cog shift as Hogan made ( post 1950 etc ).......... add that to the right side pulling notion you state Hogan made and I kinda wonder what it ends up looking like

So you are of the opinion that the real experts , 20 years biomedical engineers are indeed wrong about what causes the center of mass to start moving left ? I mean i want to know cause a lot of people need to get refunds off these experts !

the right foot, how can it be perpendicular to the target if he is using a closed stance , extra spike , way too much made of that , just like he said in power golf , he liked to dig in , athletic stance and add some push off the cleats for extra distance
[/quote]

I am not altering anything, just was compelled to start to explain the simplest possible things as e.g. thatt vertical forces act always. If your experts claim that it is possible to duplicate Hogan's action without presence or with marginal one of horizontal forces then yes, I think they do not know well the subject and they need to learn more.
Besides, it would be good if you present a link to summaries of their work on the subject so I could read what they wrote in detail. And I do not need to read about vertical forces domination in such motions as walking or running.

Cheers
[/quote]

Ok I will dig it up ......... just in case , i did summarize your cog shift and hip rotation science correctly?

[eightiron]

Ah never mind Dj , here is what a real biomedical engineer says about it all...... here is his bio

[url="http://www.welch-e.com/chris_welch_bio.pdf"]http://www.welch-e.c...s_welch_bio.pdf[/url]


[size="2"][b]Lower Body Mechanics: The Foundation of an Effective Golf Swing
Chris Welch, Welch-e Technologies[/b][/size]

[size="2"]Just like a house, a solid golf swing must be built on a solid foundation. That foundation is [b]lower body mechanics. [/b]The movement of the lower body is composed of [b]both linear and rotational [/b]components. It is the proper interaction between the two that creates a stable basis for the rest of the swing.[/size]

[size="2"][b]Definition of Terms[/b]
Your feet generate forces when they push against the ground. These forces act to propel
your body and create motion. There are two kinds of forces that are important to the golf swing: [b]Normal and Shear[/b].[/size]

[size="2"][b]Linear[/b]
[b]Normal force [/b]is applied by the feet downward or perpendicular to the ground. Weight is transferred to the back foot during the backswing and the front foot during the downswing. When weight is shifted to one foot, the amount of normal force applied by that foot increases, while the normal force applied by the other foot decreases. This action defines the linear component of movement. The linear movement of the lower body during the golf swing is very important, [b]because it is from this movement that the body develops momentum that is in turn transformed into torque and rotation speed.[/b][/size]

[size="2"][b]Rotational[/b]
[b]Shear force[/b] is applied by the feet along the surface or parallel to the ground. Throughout the swing, shear forces are being applied by both feet. These shear forces create torque that turns the hips around the axis of the trunk and creates rotational speed at the pelvis. This defines the rotational component of lower body movement. The rotational component provides the basis for power during the swing and can be most directly related to generation of club head speed.[/size]



[size="2"]also noted you state slice with the reverse -k set up restricts the cog shift/ linear component but say it isn't Hogan, well fair enough , but after one views this video linked below , you could safely say the pattern may have less vertical / normal forces due to less cog shift and be more rotational ( shear forces ) based and your science would also produce less cog shift/ counter-fall than what Hogan actually had ....... in fact this guy just is at complete odds with the stuff you proclaim to be science[/size]

[size="2"][url="http://eunph.com/video/zenoLINK_lower-body-mechanics.wmv"]Check out the video here[/url][/size]

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1294747371' post='2888594']
It is the proper interaction between the two that creates a stable basis for the rest of the swing.
[/quote]
thats what i was trying to say. when i look at hogan all i see is vertical, he's like an oil drill, lol.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294710747' post='2887934']
I think there's no inconsistency with what Hogan said and what he did. Here's my take on what he did and said:

1. In bs, his hips did not move laterally to the right but he transferred weight "internally" or put pressure on his right foot as eightiron said. Hogan said he maintained the angle in his right leg, and that's what he did;

2. He moved his head a little to the right but mainly because his upper body is tilted right at address and its turning during bs;

3. While doing that and still during bs, he is falling off to left as eightiron said, but mainly its his left hip that is moving targetwards. At end of bs (before transition), his left hip is already aligned or stacked with his left ankle. He didn't say this, but its clear in his videos. So no inconsistency with what he did and say. And I think the alignment of left hip and ankle is very important bec that really helps the next move--starting the ds with turn of hips. I find I can't turn hips properly and fast if the alignment is not there. So maybe that's why Hogan aligned it first during bs. (I'm wondering if we can do the alignment at setup so no need for lateral or fall off move during BS). Anyway...

4. [b]Then, as the bs has ended, he started the ds by turning the hips first. Hogan used the words "start" and "inaugurates" and only says "hips". And I think that's what he did. He said when you start the ds by turning the hips, "this moves the body to the left" and "this transfers the weight from the right foot to the left foot". He also said there must be enough lateral motion forward. Note that this is already in the DS and after the lateral move or falling-off during BS. So its an additional or further lateral move left.[/b] That's why Hogan's belt buckle is so in front of ball. So if you're turning your hips without moving the body left, transferring weight or enough lateral motion during that or as a result of the turning of hips, you're not turning the hips as Hogan did. The turning I belive is the most diffcult to master among Hogan's lessons. He even saaid he studied film reels/strips of players to study just how the hips turn or moves.

5. Upon starting the ds with hips, its just one fluid motion of the shoulders, arms then hands. He said these. He even said people are skeptic when he says this and he said that when he said these, people are saying "oh that's ok for Hogan who has practically slept in the golf course...etc or something to that effect. Heck, in shell gollf match video MH posted, Hogan even said that the most impt in golf swing is starting the ds with turn of hips and even described how to do it. I studied that turn of hips for days. I tried to look like that and when I did, my swing performed like Hogan too relatively that is

6. The beauty of it is I can't ott whatever I do. As Hogan said, you are forced to hit inside out and you're the captive of your own swing.
[/quote]


all points I agree with except the bolded parts of point 4. If you transfer your weight to your right side and don't do this falling back to the left move that Hogan does before your backswing is completed, if you start your downswing by turning your hips left, you'll spin out and come severely over the top. You will never get enough weight onto your left side. The ONLY reason Hogan can truly start his downswing with just a hip to the left turn is simply because he has gotten himself 'stacked' by the end of his backswing and has already moved himself back to the address position lines. Nobody does this now...so it's very important that this be done in this sequence. Or you can try Stack and Tilt, but I believe you lose all or the majority of your momentum and snap created during your backswing by not getting your weight into your right side to help create this whip like motion.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1294752503' post='2888640']
Thank you very much for the Zenolink video. Since I guess it was aimed at destroying my concepts I found it funny that the guy just supports some of them Too bad that the guy did not explain his version why the diagonal stance is optimal for a golfer, however, what he shows is indeed very similar to the concept I invented and prescribe.
As regards the impact of the ground forces - well...I agree in general what he says, however, I cannot agree that he totally omits the horizontal forces of the rear side. He talks about mass center being outside the base and, therefore, causing linear actions (good) but never specified how it is possible that one can transfer the pressure onto the rear foot and leave the CoM in front of it ! And, of course, this is possible only thanks to shear/horizontal forces. Imagine now that you create the scenario to enlarge the impact of those horizontal forces creating torques in ankle/knee joints that helps to make the counterfall as early (!) and as powerfully (!) as possible. This is the horizontal forces aspect I talk about forever and this is the importance of an aspect he probably is not aware of.
Pushing off the ground he mentions all the time can be 100% vertical, or aimed at an angle (it is not possible that it is 100% horizontal whenboth feet are on the ground and not, e.g. rear foot on the wall perpendicular to the target). If we want the linear action occur targetwise the percentage of horizontally oriented forces must be huge, otherwise we would just jump up.

Cheers
[/quote]


Honestly , its just a presentation of facts from an expert in the field of bio-mechanics. Surely kidding yourself, he is basically the complete opposite of what you state , in regard to how counter-fall / cog / linear shift happen , ground forces , he is basically stating stepping on to the right foot and then back to the left foot with counter-fall as in the baseball swing and a golf swing is condensed version of that, I don't think he agrees with the center of pressure being moved towards the back foot via shear forces nor does he seem to say anything about shear / horizontal forces creating torques in joints to make a counter-fall happen, nor horizontal forces being responsible for linear shift , something to do with rotation from what I read and watched. Total opposite of your science in most aspects

Best he go back to school then , I wanna refund

[williambenjamin11]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1294740400' post='2888546']
[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1294666636' post='2886357']
Gents, vertical forces are always present because our body has its mass and there is gravity in our reality, even if we are standing still. We do not need to use any motions aimed at increasing our weight (such as squatting or preparing to jump) to make vertical forces to act. Every dynamic motion, however, needs horizontal forces to act as well, and the importance of horizontal forces increases in specific situations requiring more than average friction (e.g. starting a motion from zero or changing the orientation of an existing motion). It does not mean that vertical forces ceased to act. It is simple as that, c'mon.
Reverting to Hogan - why do you think he preset the rear side by setting his rear foot perpendicular to the target ? or why he concluded that he needed an additional spike under his rear foot ? to create extra conditions for vertical or horizontal forces to increase and, consequently, to benefit from them ?

Cheers
[/quote]

Dj ,

You keep altering the picture ...... the original point you put forward is that the horizontal forces / friction and a firm right side automatically produce the same cog shift as Hogan made ( post 1950 etc ).......... add that to the right side pulling notion you state Hogan made and I kinda wonder what it ends up looking like

So you are of the opinion that the real experts , 20 years biomedical engineers are indeed wrong about what causes the center of mass to start moving left ? I mean i want to know cause a lot of people need to get refunds off these experts !

the right foot, how can it be perpendicular to the target if he is using a closed stance , extra spike , way too much made of that , just like he said in power golf , he liked to dig in , athletic stance and add some push off the cleats for extra distance
[/quote]


Eightiron, did Hogan still push with the cleats later in his career (I mean post accident) during ds? Didn't believe so. I think there's no more need for it because he made the fall off move already during bs. All he has to do is turn the hips.

[williambenjamin11]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1294750679' post='2888616']
[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294710747' post='2887934']
I think there's no inconsistency with what Hogan said and what he did. Here's my take on what he did and said:

1. In bs, his hips did not move laterally to the right but he transferred weight "internally" or put pressure on his right foot as eightiron said. Hogan said he maintained the angle in his right leg, and that's what he did;

2. He moved his head a little to the right but mainly because his upper body is tilted right at address and its turning during bs;

3. While doing that and still during bs, he is falling off to left as eightiron said, but mainly its his left hip that is moving targetwards. At end of bs (before transition), his left hip is already aligned or stacked with his left ankle. He didn't say this, but its clear in his videos. So no inconsistency with what he did and say. And I think the alignment of left hip and ankle is very important bec that really helps the next move--starting the ds with turn of hips. I find I can't turn hips properly and fast if the alignment is not there. So maybe that's why Hogan aligned it first during bs. (I'm wondering if we can do the alignment at setup so no need for lateral or fall off move during BS). Anyway...

4. [b]Then, as the bs has ended, he started the ds by turning the hips first. Hogan used the words "start" and "inaugurates" and only says "hips". And I think that's what he did. He said when you start the ds by turning the hips, "this moves the body to the left" and "this transfers the weight from the right foot to the left foot". He also said there must be enough lateral motion forward. Note that this is already in the DS and after the lateral move or falling-off during BS. So its an additional or further lateral move left.[/b] That's why Hogan's belt buckle is so in front of ball. So if you're turning your hips without moving the body left, transferring weight or enough lateral motion during that or as a result of the turning of hips, you're not turning the hips as Hogan did. The turning I belive is the most diffcult to master among Hogan's lessons. He even saaid he studied film reels/strips of players to study just how the hips turn or moves.

5. Upon starting the ds with hips, its just one fluid motion of the shoulders, arms then hands. He said these. He even said people are skeptic when he says this and he said that when he said these, people are saying "oh that's ok for Hogan who has practically slept in the golf course...etc or something to that effect. Heck, in shell gollf match video MH posted, Hogan even said that the most impt in golf swing is starting the ds with turn of hips and even described how to do it. I studied that turn of hips for days. I tried to look like that and when I did, my swing performed like Hogan too relatively that is

6. The beauty of it is I can't ott whatever I do. As Hogan said, you are forced to hit inside out and you're the captive of your own swing.
[/quote]


all points I agree with except the bolded parts of point 4. If you transfer your weight to your right side and don't do this falling back to the left move that Hogan does before your backswing is completed, if you start your downswing by turning your hips left, you'll spin out and come severely over the top. You will never get enough weight onto your left side. The ONLY reason Hogan can truly start his downswing with just a hip to the left turn is simply because he has gotten himself 'stacked' by the end of his backswing and has already moved himself back to the address position lines. Nobody does this now...so it's very important that this be done in this sequence. Or you can try Stack and Tilt, but I believe you lose all or the majority of your momentum and snap created during your backswing by not getting your weight into your right side to help create this whip like motion.
[/quote]


Tembolo, I agree completely and exactly. Aren't we saying same things? What you said is what I said in item no. 3. Also, see my post in reply to Dariusz re hip turn is disaster only if left hip and left ankle is not stacked.

So, fall off or lateral first DURING BS in order that at the end of bs the left hip and left ankle is already stacked. Then, to start ds, you just turn the hips. And that means you really rotate the hips. Circular, not linear. That rotation though will still move the body left, so there will still be linear move.

[williambenjamin11]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1294741782' post='2888557']
[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294717665' post='2888208']
Wow, this lead me to another questionning, do you need to have weight on left foot (vertical forces as eightiron said) at end of bs and star of ds? Hogan said that the turn of hips first to start/inaugurate/initiate the ds transfers the weight from right foot to left foot, right? So does that mean Hogan does not have weight on left foot YET at end of bs and start of ds? So the purpose of the lateral or falloff during bs of Hogan is to merely align or put left hip on top of left so he can turn properly? Also, he said its ok to lift the ankle during the bs, right? And thats what he did also. So there is no need to put weight on left foot during bs, then when you turn hips to start ds, the weight will automatically transfer to the right foot as the body moves left also?
[/quote]

William, this is what I believe in after my studies as regards this subject (please use vizualization images):

http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2010/11/ground-forces-feet-and-pressure-points.html

In ideal world, the downswing vertical axis of rotation is being established not sooner than both the linear shift has been completed and the lead ankle area is firmly on the ground again. Horizontal forces on the lead side start to act while approaching impact and the time point they start to act depends on the angle of the lead foot towards the target.
Again, for clarity reasons, my ideal kinetic world is not always exactly the same as in Hogan's motion, but somehow close to his post-secret one. Moreover, I prefer to watch what Hogan did carefully from all possible angles than to read about what he felt. This concerns to all best ballstrikers I included into my researches.

Cheers
[/quote]


Dariusz, I thought you said earlier that horizontal forces acts upon reaching the biolimits of the bs? Now you said before impact? Can you clarify please, and simpler explanation please.

My question is answerable by yes or no. Do you need to put weight on left foot in order to turn your hips at start of ds (after aligning left hip and ankle with the fall off or lateral move during bs)? My answer is no. Yours?

Tested it earlier, and I think there is no need as long as the left hip is already stacked over the left ankle by end of bs. So you transfer internally weight to right as soon as you takeaway/bs, this while falling off or lateralling targetwards until left hip is aligned to left ankle at end of bs. At this time left heel may be off the ground, doesn't matter as long as not more than an inch as Hogan said because it doesn't matter if weight is there or not. Then you rotate the hips to initiate ds, this moves body left and transfers weight from right to left foot.

HOWEVER, I am not sure of the above. I have doubts. Why? Because Hogan also said to retard the hips during bs so that there will be torque in hips or between upper and lower body, which is important so that you'll have something to start the rotation of hips in ds! And how do you retard the hips in bs? You keep the weight at setup on your left foot, right? So that means there's weight on left foot when you rotate the hips at start of ds!

In relation to this, is there any other method to retard the hips in bs in order to create torque between upper and lower body?

[chris_golf]

The players in the 50´s used all the ground with shear forces and overtorquing- this is Jimmy Demaret and maybe you have to look this frame by frame to see his ankles, knees and hipmovement and you can see it is very similar to Mr. Hogans... I believe there counterfall was just a reaction to there overtorque in the backswing... <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OFd8ClRq_cI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OFd8ClRq_cI?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></object> Chris

[Mathias]

Mr. Darius,

Can you please help explain how the "counter fall" occurs in half swings (like 9 to 3 swings) or less than full swings? Because Mr. Hogan also had it even in those swings. I want to understand how biomechanics can explain this, as in those less than full swings, I assume (if I understand your theory correctly) that the hip hasn't reached their biolimit/hasnt maxed out their RoM. Thanks in advance!

[supercharger]

I don't really agree with counterfall in hogans swing. I completely disagree with the biomechanic guy in the link above. His rotation of the hips is absolutely comical and a forced muscle action. As far as the short shots like Demaret does, one only needs to narrow the stance and bring the right foot toward the ball and pull the left foot away from it. This will force the right hip over left heel faster thus, shortening the whole sequence. If one does not understand forced rotation and how it happens it will be hard to grasp.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='supercharger' timestamp='1294793103' post='2889889']
I don't really agree with counterfall in hogans swing. I completely disagree with the biomechanic guy in the link above. His rotation of the hips is absolutely comical and a forced muscle action. As far as the short shots like Demaret does, one only needs to narrow the stance and bring the right foot toward the ball and pull the left foot away from it. This will force the right hip over left heel faster thus, shortening the whole sequence. If one does not understand forced rotation and how it happens it will be hard to grasp.


[/quote]


I agree and think the hip move is conscious. It's impossible to automate this.

[eightiron]

Yep that Z guy has no clue about real science of forces , center mass / and pressure . I mean really how could this bloke say horizontal/shear forces are hip rotation torque and center mass / and pressure / vertical forces are counter-fall and linear components..... gee I am pissed off I wasted time reading up on the science that he also taught to the TPI experts , they should have just come over and learnt of a real bio-mechanics expert on wrx who has the opposite science on this stuff. He better hope all those tour players and instructors / students using his stuff don't read this or he may be out of business overnight

[supercharger]

That guy may know science, but he does not know hogan and forced hip rotation. Yes, he better hope those tour players don't read this stuff and realize that their actions are robotic actioins and not reactions due to skeletal chain reactions that a human body can produce automatically. There will be alot of people out of work when this tgm brainwash ivy league stuff comes to a wash. The big league left brain ivy stuff that obama put together has been working quite well, oh maybe not so well.

[eightiron]

Yep, he's gone for sure . So are those TPI blokes , don't know about the TGM reference , may as well throw them in ... gone