Swing weight factors in relation to parts

[Stuart_G]

9 minutes ago, ohbigrig said:

I am building a Mizuno T20 50* wedge with PX 6.5... I was expecting to have to tip weight the shaft to make it play D3-D4 (online it appears that the stock setup is D3 with S400 - which being 132g and PX 6.5 being 125g means I am going to be light).... but the club comes out at D6.5 already!

 

Anybody have ideas what is going on?? Are Mizuno wedges actually D7 stock??

 

I doubt it but can't say for sure.

 

So what's going on?  Several possibilities.

 

Those rules of thumb about the influence of shaft weight are rubbish.  Shaft balance point is just as important as shaft weight and frequently the balance point will be altered by the designers to help account for the weight differences.  It's not uncommon for some lighter shafts to swing weight heavier than some heavier shafts.

 

Swing weight is very sensitive to playing length - and there is no one single method for measuring it.  So even if the actual numbers for playing length seem to be the same, there could still be differences in reality because of different methodologies.  And that will influence the swing weight.

 

Grip weight or even extra wraps of tape can influence the swing weight - at least what the swing weight scale will read - although those variations should typically be ignored.  It's actually better (IMO) to measure the club on the scale without a grip or grip tape and then just subtract 9 points.

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Stuart_G

[ohbigrig]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

I doubt it but can't say for sure.

 

So what's going on?  Several possibilities.

 

Those rules of thumb about the influence of shaft weight are rubbish.  Shaft balance point is just as important as shaft weight and frequently the balance point will be altered by the designers to help account for the weight differences.  It's not uncommon for some lighter shafts to swing weight heavier than some heavier shafts.

 

Swing weight is very sensitive to playing length - and there is no one single method for measuring it.  So even if the actual numbers for playing length seem to be the same, there could still be differences in reality because of different methodologies.  And that will influence the swing weight.

 

Grip weight or even extra wraps of tape can influence the swing weight - at least what the swing weight scale will read - although those variations should typically be ignored.  It's actually better (IMO) to measure the club on the scale without a grip or grip tape and then just subtract 9 points.

 

Thanks for replying... I must admit, I am still confused though, as the balance point of any club is pretty high up (the balance point on any shaft is within about a 3" section 2/3 up the shaft), well above the 14" fulcrum point on a SW scale... 

 

Also, I am using a standard SW scale, so there's no difference in methodologies... I try to compare apples to apples with all clubs I measure... and I have accounted for grips and tape, etc.

[Stuart_G]

13 minutes ago, ohbigrig said:

Thanks for replying... I must admit, I am still confused though, as the balance point of any club is pretty high up (the balance point on any shaft is within about a 3" section 2/3 up the shaft), well above the 14" fulcrum point on a SW scale... 

 

Also, I am using a standard SW scale, so there's no difference in methodologies... I try to compare apples to apples with all clubs I measure... and I have accounted for grips and tape, etc.

 

Balance point for the assembled club will always be pretty high up because the head weight is by far the heaviest component.

 

I was referring to just the balance pt for shafts and it's influence on the SW.  That can vary quite a lot.   Enough to shift swing weight up to 3-5 pts in some extreme cases.

 

Here is one set of examples, all clubs built to exact same length with the same grip and same head weight.  Only difference is the shaft.

TT DG s300 - D2

Recoil 95 F4 - D2 - much lighter shaft, exact same swing weight.

Steelfiber i95 stiff - D1   - only 1 sw pt lighter than DG despite the shaft being significantly lighter

Steelfiber i110 stiff  - C8 -  15 gm heavier than the i95's but 3 sw pts lighter.

 

Different methodologies I referenced were for measuring playing length, not measuring swing weight.  e.g.  How you determined where to butt cut the shaft when doing the build.    You could potentially have ended up with a club that was actually longer than the stock club despite trying to make it the same length.  That could be one possible way the swing weight could be a bit higher.

 

[K13]

On 4/22/2020 at 11:36 PM, Howard_Jones said:

Questions about reducing head weight often comes up, and for irons and Wedges HOSEL DRILLING is the way to go with a drill press and hosel fixture. Most heads today has a BBGM of 1.25 and higher, so thats the "drilling area", MINUS a safe limit. We also have to study the hosel to see if its a "full cylinder shape" all the way down, or of it goes smaller / flat or bends, so we dont drill trough the hosel walls at that point. This Charts for drill bits an depts can be used to see whats needed of drilling to remove the amount of weight you need to remove. We can in general remove up to 10 grams from iron heads, if BBGM is higher like it often is on wedges, even more.

Swing weights is NOT 2 grams pr SWP, it vary depending on play length, so use this char for a more exact dry fit, and forget that rule of thumb.

Thank you for posting this!
 

You don’t need it until you need it... I needed to take a few grams out of a wedge and this made something I’d have otherwise been using trial and error for simple and easy. 

[wely324]

Not sure if this the right thread, but I bought a driver and love the feel and how I was hitting hit. So I then decided to throw on my normal grip that I use. There was a tour velvet on the driver, but I prefer the BCT cord version. The difference of the grip weight was 8.3 grams heavier for the cord, decreasing my swing weight by about 2 points (waiting for the grip to dry to get an accurate measure. Being the weight added is in the handle, I assume I should just leave the head weight alone, as I would then be affecting shaft flex???

[Stuart_G]

9 hours ago, wely324 said:

Not sure if this the right thread, but I bought a driver and love the feel and how I was hitting hit. So I then decided to throw on my normal grip that I use. There was a tour velvet on the driver, but I prefer the BCT cord version. The difference of the grip weight was 8.3 grams heavier for the cord, decreasing my swing weight by about 2 points (waiting for the grip to dry to get an accurate measure. Being the weight added is in the handle, I assume I should just leave the head weight alone, as I would then be affecting shaft flex???

 

You should start by leaving the head weight alone but not because of what it might do to flex but rather because the swing weight concept was never intended to manage grip side weight.   So give it a try and see how it feels.   If any adjustment to the head weight is needed, it should be done by feel instead of using the swing weight scale or rules.

 

[SCOTT4099]

Thinking of ordering a new epic max driver. I want it at a 45 inch length in a hzrdus 60 gram shaft. Would this make the swingweight much lighter and if so should I get a 70 gram shaft instead to offset the lost weight of the 60 at 45 inches?  
 

I was considering the hzrdus blue or the hzrdus smoke IM10 70 gram shaft. The blue is counterbalanced so might that also be a problem with the swingweight?

 

 

thanks in advance

Edited February 22, 2021 by SCOTT4099

[jeffstaylor]

I need to add 1/2 inch length to my iron shafts. I currently play DG 120s. If I wanted to change shafts to +1/2; what shaft weight do I need to look for? Also, how would it change my lie angle. 

[Stuart_G]

11 hours ago, jeffstaylor said:

I need to add 1/2 inch length to my iron shafts. I currently play DG 120s. If I wanted to change shafts to +1/2; what shaft weight do I need to look for? Also, how would it change my lie angle. 

 

You shouldn't  need to change shaft weight assuming the they are already a good fit before extending.  What shaft weight will be a good fit generally wont change if you need the irons a little longer.

 

What you will need is lighter head weights - by about 7 gm.  That's why it's usually better getting over length irons that come out of the factory that way instead of trying to extend a standard set.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Stuart_G

[dukebasketball717]

I want to subtract 1/2" from my driver shaft.  Will this affect the swing weight by much?  If so how much weight should I add back in an aftermarket weight?

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, dukebasketball717 said:

I want to subtract 1/2" from my driver shaft.  Will this affect the swing weight by much?  If so how much weight should I add back in an aftermarket weight?

 

The swing weight "rules" should NOT be used to figure that out.   The best way is to go to the range with some lead tape.  Use this tutorial to help you figure it out.

 

 

[Philipape]

Can someone estimate swingweight on a standard Callaway apex pro 19 with dynamic gold x7. With standard shafts it should be d3.

[ColoradoMike]

Reshafting my CB's which came stock with the S300 (127 grams) and going to the KBS C-taper lite (110 grams). I was planning on doing this myself, but now I'm not sure after reading about SW measurements etc... I'm assuming there are SW's in the tips of the S300 and the specs are D2 for the CB's, but with a lighter shaft, will these need to be replaced? Thanks for any info. 

[lefthack]

Maybe it's because my irons are older than dirt, or maybe I'm crazy. But the weight between the bare heads seem to be a little all over the map. 

 

From 4 gram to 8 gram difference between each. I calculated the built swing weight before I pulled them apart to prep for my graphite shafts and there is a good spread. From C8 in my PW to D5 in my 3i.

 

They play amazing and hope they play even better after the shaft change. But the whole swing weight thing is in the back of my mind. But the way these heads weigh out, trying to get a consistent swing weight through the set would be way to much work 

[Eldrick Tont]

Does the swing weight in a driver affect how you’re able to load the shaft? 

[Stuart_G]

7 hours ago, Eldrick Tont said:

Does the swing weight in a driver affect how you’re able to load the shaft? 

 

Head weight feel has the potential to effect the swing in countless ways.  So it's certainly possible.

 

Given swing that is exactly repeated (e.g. a robot), the amount of head weight (which is not the same as saying swing weight) will effect how much the shaft loads.  Although it usually takes a decent amount of head weight change before it's noticeable - maybe on the order of enough to change the SW by 4-5 points for some, more for others.  Even then it's still a pretty subtle change in feel.

[joostin]

The 2nd rule of thumb in this thread is the 2g to 1 swingweight point which works pretty well in real life.  Just testing some actual numbers with my Excel calculator on 3 clubs just to see - Driver, 6 iron, and 60° wedge.  Here are the results for 2g of lead tape placed around the middle of each club head like this (and bottom center of the driver head).

 

 

The red highlighted lines are "modifying" each club with 2g centered at the measured distance from the butt of the club (approx. 37.7" on the 6 iron above).

- Driver increased 1.3 SWP

- 6 iron increased 1.0 SWP

- Lob wedge increased 0.8 SWP

- So, it's definitely a good estimate across the clubs, just a little more towards driver and a little less toward the LW.👍

 

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by joostin

[joostin]

More testing on the SW calculator - for the first and third rules of thumb:

 

*1/2" = 3 SWP

I'm just using calcs for choking up 1/2" for driver, 6 iron, and lob wedge:

- Driver changed 3.4 SWP

- 6 iron changed 4.3 SWP

- Lob wedge changed 4.9 SWP

- All are more than the 3 SWP assumed.  Choking up is different though than cutting or extending because you will lose or add weight and shift balance point, but still a 1/2" change on different clubs will not change SWP by exactly the same increment.

 

*5g grip = 1 SWP

Assuming 5 gram lighter grips with balance points 4" from the butt (negative 5 entered):

- Driver changed 1.0 SWP

- 6 iron changed 1.1 SWP

- Lob wedge changed 1.0 SWP

- All spot on to the rule of thumb

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by joostin

[mogc60]

Great info Joostin! Thank you for posting those spec tests

[joostin]

Testing the 4th rule of thumb:

* 9 gr shaft weight differences = 1 swing weight point

 

Using the components tab on the spreadsheet with hypothetical component weights (typical 200g driver head, 263g 6 iron head, 300g lob wedge head...), and only changing the shaft weight by 9 grams with the same balance point, as shown for each club:

 

- Driver changed 2.0 SWP

- 6 iron changed 0.8 SWP

- Lob wedge changed 0.5 SWP

 

Clearly it's a rough guideline, probably best for irons only.

[joostin]

Testing the 5th and last rule of thumb:

* 4* flatter lie or more up right lie = increase or decrease 1 swing weight point

 

This was the most difficult to test because it involves the clubhead COG shifting with lie adjustments.  The following all play a role to determine this:  the "center" point of bend for a clubhead; the "center" point of adjustment on an adapter; and the location of the head's COG.  In this case swingweight only cares how far the head's COG moves in relation to the butt of the shaft and fulcrum point (the direction parallel to the shaft only).  Here are measurements from CAD:

 

 

Plugging the circled numbers for 4° flat on each clubhead (balance points are .11", .09", .08" farther from the butt of the clubs):

- Driver changed 0.4 SWP

- 6 iron changed 0.5 SWP

- Lob wedge changed 0.5 SWP

 

You would have to adjust lies more than 8° in either direction to get a true 1 swingweight point change for each of these clubs.

 

Hope anyone reading through these found it interesting as I did.  One of the reasons I made a swingweight spreadsheet, and continue to tweak it, was to make testing different scenarios like these pretty easy to do.  As mentioned in other threads if you have a real SW scale, great!  It's easier and generally more accurate measuring one thing..  If you don't, don't worry, just take time to be as accurate as possible getting weights and balance points.  Remember, a calculator is perfect in itself when made correctly.  You be as close to perfect as you can!

 

Same latest file as in other threads:

Swingweight_Calculator_20210324.xlsx

 

Cheers 🍻 

Edited April 15, 2021 by joostin

[Stuart_G]

11 hours ago, joostin said:

Testing the 4th rule of thumb:

* 9 gr shaft weight differences = 1 swing weight point

 

Clearly it's a rough guideline, probably best for irons only.

 

No, it's not best for any club since the assumptions it's based on (no change in balance point) will rarely be true (if ever). 

 

I appreciate the effort you're putting into all of this but you still have to be realistic about the usefulness of the work.

 

 

[joostin]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

No, it's not best for any club since the assumptions it's based on (no change in balance point) will rarely be true (if ever). 

 

I appreciate the effort you're putting into all of this but you still have to be realistic about the usefulness of the work.

 

 

Fair enough sir.  We would really need uncut shaft balance point data.  IIRC someone (Howard, Wishon?) had an Excel database of shafts posted in the past with BPs I believe measuring from the tip side.

 

I'm curious to see how BP changes with something like a Diamana D+ 60 vs 70 vs 80, or a DG S300 vs same length DG 120 S300.  I remember seeing that the lighter DG SL was designed to maintain swingweight if coming from the traditional DG.

 

Anyway my intent was to visually show the breakdown of these things that affect swingweight.  Whatever can be adjusted can be calculated.  As good as the guidelines have been for people through the years, we can still break it down to get more accuracy, based on the torque math, for the range of clubs we work and play with.  We just need weights and balance points. 

 

The spreadsheet is free for anyone to validate with their own numbers and their own physical scales.  Don't just take my examples! 

[roarkerandall]

Maybe a dumb question, but I can't find any more detailed specs on KBS's site. I'm buying the C-Taper lite stiff shafts. Their website says the shafts are 110 grams, and that the 9/PW wedge is 37.5" and the rest are longer in .5" increments. Does that mean the 40" long 4 iron is 110 grams also? Or is one shaft 110 grams and each iron in the set slightly differ?

 

I ask because I'm using the swing weight planner (http://golf.okrasa.eu/clubs/swingweight-en/sw-plan-en/) and it needs the raw weight of the shaft. When I calculated out my build the swing weight dropped through the set from D3 to D1. Obviously that's an estimate but I'm just looking or a dry run.

[Stuart_G]

3 hours ago, roarkerandall said:

Their website says the shafts are 110 grams, and that the 9/PW wedge is 37.5" and the rest are longer in .5" increments. Does that mean the 40" long 4 iron is 110 grams also?

 

Yes for the taper tip version (not parallel tip).  They are referred to as constant weight shafts.  The cut shaft weight will be the same despite the 1/2" difference in length between each club.

 

Quote

I ask because I'm using the swing weight planner (http://golf.okrasa.eu/clubs/swingweight-en/sw-plan-en/) and it needs the raw weight of the shaft.

 

First of all, you'll need the cut shaft weight for anything like that, not the uncut shaft weight.  You should never use the web site specs for those types of calculations.  You should always weigh the shaft yourself after cutting it to length.

 

Second it's a bad idea to use anything like that that does not take into consideration (take as input) the balance point of the shaft.  That's just as important as the cut shaft weight in determining the swing weight.   You'd be way better off dry fitting the parts and using something like the club swing weight estimator on leaderboard.com than you would be using the tool at that link.

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Stuart_G

[roarkerandall]

10 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Yes for the taper tip version (not parallel tip).  They are referred to as constant weight shafts.  The cut shaft weight will be the same despite the 1/2" difference in length between each club.

 

 

First of all, you'll need the cut shaft weight for anything like that, not the uncut shaft weight.  You should never use the web site specs for those types of calculations.  You should always weigh the shaft yourself after cutting it to length.

 

Second it's a bad idea to use anything like that that does not take into consideration (take as input) the balance point of the shaft.  That's just as important as the cut shaft weight in determining the swing weight.   You'd be way better off dry fitting the parts and using something like the club swing weight estimator on leaderboard.com than you would be using the tool at that link.

 

I'm going to do that also, but I'm wondering roughly what tip weights I need to buy. 

[Lazy Banjo]

On 1/8/2021 at 5:24 AM, ohbigrig said:

I am building a Mizuno T20 50* wedge with PX 6.5... I was expecting to have to tip weight the shaft to make it play D3-D4 (online it appears that the stock setup is D3 with S400 - which being 132g and PX 6.5 being 125g means I am going to be light).... but the club comes out at D6.5 already!

 

Anybody have ideas what is going on?? Are Mizuno wedges actually D7 stock??

I've just pulled apart my set of MP 64 to rebuild soft stepping my $ taper at 1/2 over. My 50 is a T20 that I've pulled as well. My MP 64 P head weighs 291 grams. The T20 50 weighs 309!! No wonder it felt out of whack. I've ditched it to go back to an old Vokey for now that weighs 301 grams and is still heavy for 1/4 inch gaps in wedges and 9 iron. I'm in Australia so maybe we get Japanese heads that are heavy as they use shorter clubs? No idea but goodbye T20.... On a different note the soft stepped $ Taper do feel better as I removed tip weights to build a MOI set based on feel. They were way too heavy before with some crazy tip weights installed. My 9 is now perfect to start as base club at D3 whereas before it was D6.5. The info here is great! Thank you all for your contributions 🙂

[Seamus_McDuff]

9 hours ago, Lazy Banjo said:

I've just pulled apart my set of MP 64 to rebuild soft stepping my $ taper at 1/2 over. My 50 is a T20 that I've pulled as well. My MP 64 P head weighs 291 grams. The T20 50 weighs 309!! No wonder it felt out of whack. I've ditched it to go back to an old Vokey for now that weighs 301 grams and is still heavy for 1/4 inch gaps in wedges and 9 iron. I'm in Australia so maybe we get Japanese heads that are heavy as they use shorter clubs? No idea but goodbye T20.... On a different note the soft stepped $ Taper do feel better as I removed tip weights to build a MOI set based on feel. They were way too heavy before with some crazy tip weights installed. My 9 is now perfect to start as base club at D3 whereas before it was D6.5. The info here is great! Thank you all for your contributions 🙂

Yea, that seems heavy. My T20 52 weighs 297 grams. 

[Buckeye Hutch]

I've been doing some experimenting with my Ping G410 Plus driver.  It came stock at 45.25" with the Alta CB 55 shaft.  I changed in a Fujikura Fuel 60 gram shaft (grip on this shaft is 8 grams less) that has been butt shortened .75" so the driver plays at 44.5".  For my experiment, I tried different head weights.  The tungsten weight that came with the club is 12 grams.  First I tried an 18 gram weight (neutral - back middle position).  I was guessing that maybe this setup might be "close" in swingweight to the stock setup?  The driver performed pretty well.  Next I replaced the 18 gram weight with two 12 gram weights (24 grams total) placed in the fade and draw positions.  Obviously, this made the driver fairly heavy.  But surprisingly I am hitting it really well...very stable through impact.  I don't have a scale...but would really appreciate it if anyone has a pure guess at what swingweight this thing is with 24 grams?  D8-D9??  So basically the Fuji shaft +5 grams was shortened .75".  Grip is 8 grams lighter, and the head weight is +12 grams.

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, Buckeye Hutch said:

I don't have a scale...but would really appreciate it if anyone has a pure guess at what swingweight this thing is with 24 grams? 

 

http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWT.HTM

 

You just need to be very accurate with the balance point measurement and it will give you a decent estimate.