Need a ruling....Repair hail damage on green?

[sui generis]

19 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I gotta admit I would have thought we could fix hail marks now. But not so as Sui posted. 
But “damage on the putting green ” does not include any damage or conditions that result from:
Irrigation or rain or other natural forces
 

 

Sui, would the committee be able to allow hail damage repair to enable a tournament to continue properly?

 

I would think so. 

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

@Augster and @Halebopp have pointed out the correct rule, it was issued as a Clarification in December 2018, just before the new rules went into effect.  

I do not often say this...well maybe except for their US Open setups...but this is stupid on the USGA’s part. Looking at the rules and Interpretations it is still not allowed. Since the clarification was issued before the new rules why would they not include it in, you know, the actual new rule? 
But hey, ya learn something new every day. So when asked about a certain on course predicament I now know to look at the rule, then the interpretations, AND now the clarifications. Even the ones that were issued before the rules were created.?

[sui generis]

7 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I do not often say this...well maybe except for their US Open setups...but this is stupid on the USGA’s part. Looking at the rules and Interpretations it is still not allowed. Since the clarification was issued before the new rules why would they not include it in, you know, the actual new rule? 
But hey, ya learn something new every day. So when asked about a certain on course predicament I now know to look at the rule, then the interpretations, AND now the clarifications. Even the ones that were issued before the rules were created.?

 

I'll offer a weak defense of the USGA and R&A.

 

I attended a PGA/USGA Rules Workshop late in 2018 to get ready for the 2019 season. The PGA instructor was an old friend, Larry Startzel, but USGA representative was new to me. Mark Reinemann, who happened to be the Chairman of the USGA Rules Committee and said that he'd been in the new Rules project since its inception. He had some good stories and some fascinating insights into the process, but he did confess that they'd "run out of time!" 

 

It'll always be so. Let's be appreciative of a system which allows the ruling bodies to be responsive to their own errors and omissions and to be able to adapt to unforeseen problems.

[davep043]

22 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I do not often say this...well maybe except for their US Open setups...but this is stupid on the USGA’s part. Looking at the rules and Interpretations it is still not allowed. Since the clarification was issued before the new rules why would they not include it in, you know, the actual new rule? 
But hey, ya learn something new every day. So when asked about a certain on course predicament I now know to look at the rule, then the interpretations, AND now the clarifications. Even the ones that were issued before the rules were created.?

I haven't checked, but it seems to me that the phone app adds a link to any rule which has been "clarified", so you know to refer further.  The web-based rules don't have that link.  

[rogolf]

33 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I do not often say this...well maybe except for their US Open setups...but this is stupid on the USGA’s part. Looking at the rules and Interpretations it is still not allowed. Since the clarification was issued before the new rules why would they not include it in, you know, the actual new rule? 
But hey, ya learn something new every day. So when asked about a certain on course predicament I now know to look at the rule, then the interpretations, AND now the clarifications. Even the ones that were issued before the rules were created.?

I'm sure that the Rule books and Official Guide had gone out for printing before that one was completed!

[Shilgy]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I'm sure that the Rule books and Official Guide had gone out for printing before that one was completed!

That was my first thought...but the app as well?? They have done other updates and clarifications. But not this one.

[Shilgy]

14 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I haven't checked, but it seems to me that the phone app adds a link to any rule which has been "clarified", so you know to refer further.  The web-based rules don't have that link.  

Thank you for that...there is a little blue banner with the clarification. Now I know to look for those as well. Seems to me considering they have updated other rules they could do the same on this one but no. Clarification it is.

 

 

Thank you all.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

That was my first thought...but the app as well?? They have done other updates and clarifications. But not this one.

Are you saying that the Rules (only the Rules) on the app are different than the Rules in the book?  I wouldn't think so.

[Shilgy]

28 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Are you saying that the Rules (only the Rules) on the app are different than the Rules in the book?  I wouldn't think so.

Should they be different though. When the clarification came out in 2018 did the book change? Of course not. There have been other changes that made the rules app with an update I seem to recall. Why not change this one? Just seems odd to me. With the number of golfers that rely on the app for rules decisions why not make changes via updates? Perhaps with a note to show paper users when the change came into being.

[rogolf]

29 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Should they be different though. When the clarification came out in 2018 did the book change? Of course not. There have been other changes that made the rules app with an update I seem to recall. Why not change this one? Just seems odd to me. With the number of golfers that rely on the app for rules decisions why not make changes via updates? Perhaps with a note to show paper users when the change came into being.

I don't believe the Rules themselves have changed, nor Interpretations as printed in the Official Guide.  Clarifications are scheduled to be issued every three months (obviously impacted by Covid).  Imo, the Rules in the book and on the app should always be the same.

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

I don't believe the Rules themselves have changed, nor Interpretations as printed in the Official Guide.  Clarifications are scheduled to be issued every three months (obviously impacted by Covid).  Imo, the Rules in the book and on the app should always be the same.

Are people buying a new rules book every three months? Why not put the clarification right into the rules app with a note that it is a clarification since last printing? Seems like it would be easier for most to find.

But i have learned to look for clarifications tonight. Not just the rules and interpretations.

 

Thank you all.

[rogolf]

16 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Are people buying a new rules book every three months? Why not put the clarification right into the rules app with a note that it is a clarification since last printing? Seems like it would be easier for most to find.

But i have learned to look for clarifications tonight. Not just the rules and interpretations.

 

Thank you all.

I still read the paper versions, including Clarifications printed at home, much better than the electronic versions.  And I carry the printed versions on the course when I'm refereeing.  I find them easier to deal with.

[jobin]

Is a dog a 'natural force'?  Dogs here lie on the green, scrape and dig. Dog crap-sure can be moved aside as is a 'loose impediment' except if dog has diarrhea.

What a pile these rules are!

[rogolf]

42 minutes ago, jobin said:

Is a dog a 'natural force'?  Dogs here lie on the green, scrape and dig. Dog crap-sure can be moved aside as is a 'loose impediment' except if dog has diarrhea.

What a pile these rules are!

No, a dog is not a natural force according to the Rules.  The dog would be an outside influence.

Edited September 15, 2020 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

19 hours ago, rogolf said:

I don't believe the Rules themselves have changed, nor Interpretations as printed in the Official Guide.  Clarifications are scheduled to be issued every three months (obviously impacted by Covid).  Imo, the Rules in the book and on the app should always be the same.

 

It seems to me that this is the case.