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Heard an interesting take the other day


npark
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what's your opinion
Was talking to somone the other day and was told that you should play irons that are typically 'above' your ball striking level. He said it will force you to make better contact, this is, if you are trying to improve you ball striking. He said this applies if you are on a improving trend (say trending from a 15 to a 8) and didn't want to be buying multiple sets clubs. So I guess you would consider buying the players club to save $$ in the long run...trade off is a larger obstacle upfront. Now I don't struggle making a good move on the ball but at the same time I don't believe I would want to give up forgiveness when I don't have to...just made me scratch my head a bit. I had never actually heard this theory before and don't really have an opinion on it's merits or lack there of just curious as to what others think.
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I recall this being discussed here a few years ago. I don't understand it either.

It's a question of whether the golfer should develop to the level of his clubs, or whether the clubs should suit the golfer's skill level. I would think that a total beginner starting out with tour level blades would get frustrated quickly and give up the game altogether. :)

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Unfortunately, this is one of those questions that has 2 answers and will never have a correct one. For me, going from SGI's to CB's made me a better ball striker. I wouldn't be where I am today without making that jump from SGI's to CB's and finally to blades. Trust me though, once you start down the road of CB's and blades, for some reason your inner ho comes out and you begin to buy clubs all the time.

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You could buy player's clubs now and decide you don't like them and
end up with the same problem.(costly club change).

Just my opinion, of course, but I think it's good to weigh any advice
you get against what your goals are.

Not everyone wants to "graduate" to a more difficult club. There are
many good players using more forgiving SGI/GI irons. Just read
some of the threads on here. You may be surprised.

But if your goal is to move to more of a player's iron then getting
some and getting used to them may be a good idea.

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Interesting, so if this is a valid theory and I used to solidly strike my 962's and more recently my 775's (carrying an 8 HCI) I should possibly be looking at some sort of MB design to continue to "develope to the level of my clubs"? I am seriously contemplating getting the MP-53's in 3-7i and a full set of the MP-68's. I would start out using only the 8-PW from the 68's but then start swapping out the 53's for the 68's (one by one) in the 7-3i as my game 'developes' eventially having a full set of blades...assuming I don't get held up on one of the long irons.

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[quote name='GatorNate11' timestamp='1310359511' post='3381041']
Unfortunately, this is one of those questions that has 2 answers and will never have a correct one. For me, going from SGI's to CB's made me a better ball striker. I wouldn't be where I am today without making that jump from SGI's to CB's and finally to blades. Trust me though, once you start down the road of CB's and blades, for some reason your inner ho comes out and you begin to buy clubs all the time.
[/quote]
The thing is, there is no guarantee that the equipment will make you a better ball striker. If someone sucks with SGI clubs he will be even worse with blades. And using blades assumes that one needs to be a good ball striker to begin with. IMO there are easier and better ways to learn a skill than learning with equipment that's the hardest to use.

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[quote name='Interpol' timestamp='1310359389' post='3381038']
I recall this being discussed here a few years ago. I don't understand it either.

It's a question of whether the golfer should develop to the level of his clubs, or whether the clubs should suit the golfer's skill level. I would think that a total beginner starting out with tour level blades would get frustrated quickly and give up the game altogether. :)
[/quote]

I´m doing it, not thinkinjg about quitting. Funny thing. Everyone that I play witth says "Those clubs are to hard for you", and in the next sentence "you have a really solid swing". Funny thing that they don´t see the releationship. You just can´t play blades with a poor swing. It just doesen´t work. When I play with guys with the same handicap as me I see all kinds of weird swings. Better players often have better swings, but they also play players CB or similar clubs. Most claim that they wouldn´t touch a blade, it´s "too hard".

I guess if you play super GI clubs it will be hard to develope a solid swing, it´s just to forgiving for your mistakes. You might develope in to a great golfer, with great scores though. Making the switch as a single digit HC from SGI to blades will probably be very painful. As a beginner you are more tolerante of miss hits, they happen whether you play SGI clubs or blades.

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[quote name='Fundadores' timestamp='1310368447' post='3381212']
I´m doing it, not thinkinjg about quitting. Funny thing. Everyone that I play witth says "Those clubs are to hard for you", and in the next sentence "you have a really solid swing". Funny thing that they don´t see the releationship. You just can´t play blades with a poor swing. It just doesen´t work. When I play with guys with the same handicap as me I see all kinds of weird swings. Better players often have better swings, but they also play players CB or similar clubs. Most claim that they wouldn´t touch a blade, it´s "too hard".

I guess if you play super GI clubs it will be hard to develope a solid swing, it´s just to forgiving for your mistakes. You might develope in to a great golfer, with great scores though. Making the switch as a single digit HC from SGI to blades will probably be very painful. As a beginner you are more tolerante of miss hits, they happen whether you play SGI clubs or blades.
[/quote]
The flaw in your reasoning is that you are assuming that one will have more trouble developing a solid or correct swing using SGI clubs versus gamer clubs. That's not true at all. Consider the possibility that it may take 2 or 3 times as long to become a good ball striker using blades and I'd say it's a draw. In order to become a GOOD ball striker, you need to start out being a ball striker first. Game improvement clubs do that job nicely.

You have my respect for developing your game with equipment that's difficult to use, but don't think you are the norm in this situation. Attitude does play a part in this as well. What total neophyte wants to have a horrible experience playing with blades for months or years before getting better, when he can use SGI clubs and gradually improve his game while having fun doing it? Yes, as a beginner you are more tolerant of mishits but would you rather be in the first cut of rough or in the other fairway?

Cobra King F9, Atmos TS 7X
Ping G 3W
Ping G410 3H
TaylorMade P-790 4-PW
Titleist Vokey SM5 52, 56
Titleist Vokey SM7 60
Ping Karsten TR Anser 5

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The flaw in your reasoning is that it´s not possible that it takes 2-3 times longer to learn how to hit the sweet spot with blades vs SGI clubs. It takes the same time. It´s just that an SGI club is more forgiving for poor shots, so the learning curve will be, or at least feel, smoother. In 3 years time most players will probably have learnt to have a consistent swing and learn how to hit the sweet spot, both on a blade and an SGI club. But I think, and that just by observation, that some players, due to the forgiving nature of SGI clubs, for example continiously keep hitting the toe of the club, just because they can. They have not yet been punished for that mistake. If or when they buy a harder club, the will be forced then to correct that flaw, or they will go back to more forgiving clubs. You will painstakingly learn with blades that a toe hit is a big no no. Hence you have to be thorough setting up your stance and keeping the correct distance to the ball.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I think you can as a beginner, intermediate or advanced player choose a hard club. It might take longer time to master, but IMHO it will force you to be more thorough.

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i have always been told to practice with mb then play tournaments with a players cavity or cb... this way in the tournament you will strike the ball better as you are use to hitting a smaller sweet spot during practice.

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Everyone is different, myself I like irons with some forgiveness, but I like a blade style putter. I always find it somewhat ironic that guys who play blades so they can hit the sweetspot more often will play a giant over sized, face balanced mallet with alignment aids all over it. Personally I think a putter is where you need the most feedback, along with wedges, ....if this theory is really true then why do you want a large 460 cc driver as well?

Just use what works for you and don't worry about what others think, in the end you should play what you enjoy using, because golf is mostly mental anyway. :crazy2:

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[quote name='Interpol' timestamp='1310359389' post='3381038']
I would think that a total beginner starting out with tour level blades would get frustrated quickly and give up the game altogether. :)
[/quote]
The best players I know started playing with blades!

I'm 30 now but when I began playing, almost everyone started with an old set of blades. For us, that was the way to learn.

I've always disagreed that game improvement irons actually [i]improve[/i] your game but once you know how to strike the ball properly, use what you want!

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I always find it somewhat ironic that guys who play blades so they can hit the sweetspot more often will play a giant over sized, face balanced mallet with alignment aids all over it. Personally I think a putter is where you need the most feedback, along with wedges, ....if this theory is really true then why do you want a large 460 cc driver as well?

 

Guilty of the putter, busted2.gif the driver is 365 cc at least.

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[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1310375557' post='3381274']
Everyone is different, myself I like irons with some forgiveness, but I like a blade style putter. I always find it somewhat ironic that guys who play blades so they can hit the sweetspot more often will play a giant over sized, face balanced mallet with alignment aids all over it. Personally I think a putter is where you need the most feedback, along with wedges, ....if this theory is really true then why do you want a large 460 cc driver as well?

Just use what works for you and don't worry about what others think, in the end you should play what you enjoy using, because golf is mostly mental anyway. :crazy2:
[/quote]
Come on mate. The golf swing and the putting stroke are two dramatically different things and as a generalisation, drivers are for distance and irons are for precision. That's why plenty of blade users are also using a 460cc driver.

Agree with the last comment though! :drinks:

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Everyone learns differently, so there is no right or wrong answer here.
Some people like to start out in the wading pool and maybe splash around a bit to get comfortable.
Others like to jump in the deep end and force themselves to learn as quick as possible.

Everyone also has different levels of tolerance and patience.
Some people won't bother spending a lot of time on something if it is too difficult for them.
Others won't bother doing something if it doesn't challenge them.

Choose whatever helps you on your way to becoming a better player and keeps you in the game,
How other people learn should be of no concern.

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[quote name='npark' timestamp='1310359115' post='3381026']
Was talking to somone the other day and was told that you should play irons that are typically 'above' your ball striking level. He said it will force you to make better contact, this is, if you are trying to improve you ball striking. He said this applies if you are on a improving trend (say trending from a 15 to a 8) and didn't want to be buying multiple sets clubs. So I guess you would consider buying the players club to save $ in the long run...trade off is a larger obstacle upfront. Now I don't struggle making a good move on the ball but at the same time I don't believe I would want to give up forgiveness when I don't have to...just made me scratch my head a bit. I had never actually heard this theory before and don't really have an opinion on it's merits or lack there of just curious as to what others think.
[/quote]

An interesting twist on this is that I find that I hit my CBs much better - and more consistently - then my GI clubs. My hypothesis is that when I stand over the ball, I know my margin of error is much smaller and I focus on putting a really clean swing on the ball. With the GI, for whatever reason, I tend to get lazy and hit some terrible shots. I think the issue is that 50% of the time, I can put a bad swing on the ball with the GI and still get reasonable results, so I don't focus on making a good swing. With the CB, a bad swing is much more punitive, so I put the extra effort in. It will be interesting to see if I adapt and get 'lazy' with the CBs as I transition over to them...

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I played with a mid capper this past weekend who had a set of hogan blades. Funny thing was his iron play was miles ahead of the rest of his game. Where he got himself in trouble was off the tee and around the green. Reminded me of myself actually.

I personally find my x-22 tours to be a nice mix of both worlds. They have plenty of forgiveness in my opinion, but still demand some attention. My miss has always been a fat shot. I'm working to get rid of it but sometimes I still hit the ground 2 inches behind the ball. No matter what club I'm playing, sgi or blades, my shot won't turn out the way I want it to.

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Play what you like and go from there. I bet if you gave me 3 sets of irons, GI, CB and players CB or MB (all setup the same) my scores would be just about the same. More importantly to me I want a club that looks good from address and gives me the feel I want from a good swing.

I know a few good players that play GI clubs. You see guys on tour using GI clubs. There are guys out there that like the look of offset from the top. There are also plenty of good players that hit a low ball and need to launch it higher.

So again, play what you like.

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Miura has this same take. Read about why he created his baby or small blades.

http://www.miuragolf.com/series57_blade.asp


I think there is some merit to this, but within reason. An 18 handicapper probably wouldn't benefit from hitting blades. Honestly, it really just boils down to confidence. If you think you can hit it, you will. For most golfers, the confidence seems to dwindle away when they get the long irons in their hands simply based on appearance. I bet if you took a set of blades or player CBs and started with the PW and 9i and just hit them for a week everyday then the next week moved to the 7and 8i and continued this each week, by the time you got to the 3 and 4i you'd be surprised at the results.

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As a new golfer, I had the same debate recently. Some people told me to get SGI clubs, others told me to get GI clubs or better and just learn to make better contact. In the end, I went with a set of SGI clubs that are said, by golfers far better than myself, to be more workable than most SGI clubs, and provide good distance as well. This means that I won't outgrow them in 3 or 4 months. It also means that while I'm learning the game, it will be less frustrating overall, because the clubs will provide more forgiveness on mishits.

Also, I don't look like this guy . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYJnqTSp08k

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Similar claims can be made for bagging a dual-hinge Medicus, which

# Lets you know when you swing incorrectly
# teaches you to swing in tempo & on plane
# Instantly identifies the flaw in your swing
# Improves consistency and control

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I understand the thought behind it. However, there is a cheaper solution. Many years ago as I was becoming a better golfer. I got my hands on a Mizuno MP-29 5-iron. I was playing Tommy Armour 845's at the time. I would go to the range, warm up with my 845's, and then I would take that blade and hit shot after shot making sure I made solid contact. I got so good with shaping shots...hitting them high, low, draw, fade..straight. Then I would pull any 845 and I could do anything with it. It gave me so much confidence that when I went to the course, my scores dropped drastically.

Go order a 5 or 6 iron in a "player's iron"...incorporate it into your practice...you will then become a better ball striker.

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Practicing a correct swing (one that works) is ALL that will make you better. You can practice 'till the cows come home with blades and if you don't have a workable swing, you will just hit them poorly.

You can tell when you hit a SGI club poorly, and the fact is, even if you know exactly where you hit the ball (toe, heel etc. ) unless you know how to fix the mishit it is useless information.

You should get the clubs that allow you to enjoy the game the most. Practice with what you plan to play. Get a few lessons if that is what you need.

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[quote name='Fundadores' timestamp='1310370367' post='3381230']
The flaw in your reasoning is that it´s not possible that it takes 2-3 times longer to learn how to hit the sweet spot with blades vs SGI clubs. It takes the same time. It´s just that an SGI club is more forgiving for poor shots, so the learning curve will be, or at least feel, smoother. In 3 years time most players will probably have learnt to have a consistent swing and learn how to hit the sweet spot, both on a blade and an SGI club. But I think, and that just by observation, that some players, due to the forgiving nature of SGI clubs, for example continiously keep hitting the toe of the club, just because they can. They have not yet been punished for that mistake. If or when they buy a harder club, the will be forced then to correct that flaw, or they will go back to more forgiving clubs. You will painstakingly learn with blades that a toe hit is a big no no. Hence you have to be thorough setting up your stance and keeping the correct distance to the ball.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I think you can as a beginner, intermediate or advanced player choose a hard club. It might take longer time to master, but IMHO it will force you to be more thorough.
[/quote]


I actually quite like this reasoning.


Good post

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Good concept but flawed overall as it kills confidence and may not fit the player.

There are a lot of good players out there still playing SGI that trend way lower than the recommended handicap they are designed for, plus there are more folks going to players CB's for the same reason.

Spend the money on range time and lessons, then decide what fits your game or what inspires the most confidence.

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[quote name='Fundadores' timestamp='1310370367' post='3381230']
The flaw in your reasoning is that it´s not possible that it takes 2-3 times longer to learn how to hit the sweet spot with blades vs SGI clubs. It takes the same time. It´s just that an SGI club is more forgiving for poor shots, so the learning curve will be, or at least feel, smoother. In 3 years time most players will probably have learnt to have a consistent swing and learn how to hit the sweet spot, both on a blade and an SGI club. But I think, and that just by observation, that some players, due to the forgiving nature of SGI clubs, for example continiously keep hitting the toe of the club, just because they can. They have not yet been punished for that mistake. If or when they buy a harder club, the will be forced then to correct that flaw, or they will go back to more forgiving clubs. You will painstakingly learn with blades that a toe hit is a big no no. Hence you have to be thorough setting up your stance and keeping the correct distance to the ball.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I think you can as a beginner, intermediate or advanced player choose a hard club. It might take longer time to master, but IMHO it will force you to be more thorough.
[/quote]
Interesting take. However, you are still assuming that forgiveness encourages and promotes sloppiness, which is not true. Some people may accept hitting off the toe all the time as their 'normal' swing, but there is no reason why one cannot learn correct swing mechanics using game improvement clubs. The type of club used is more or less irrelevant.

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