8620 Steel VS. 1020 Steel

[Nessism]

3 minutes ago, denkea said:

Ness, respectfully, all steel is hot rolled to begin with.  

 

Not really.  A foundry will provide steel of whatever process type you want: cast ingots, hot rolled (many shapes), cold rolled (many shapes), and even forged (limited shapes without special tooling.)  

 

Saying "...all steel used in the golf industry is cast" is not the best way to describe the supply situation.   

 

 

[denkea]

2 minutes ago, Nessism said:

 

Not really.  A foundry will provide steel of whatever process type you want: cast ingots, hot rolled (many shapes), cold rolled (many shapes), and even forged (limited shapes without special tooling.)  

 

Saying "...all steel used in the golf industry is cast" is not the best way to describe the supply situation.   

 

 

All steel starts out in the molten form in a giant pot (ingot) then poured (cast) into a shape for further processing.  Cold rolling is a process after hot rolling.  

[Nessism]

26 minutes ago, denkea said:

All steel starts out in the molten form in a giant pot (ingot) then poured (cast) into a shape for further processing.  Cold rolling is a process after hot rolling.  

 

An ingot is a hard form shape; molten metal is poured into a mold where it cools, and an ingot of metal is the final result.  In effect, a cast club head is in of itself an ingot of sorts.

 

I know that cold worked comes after hot working.  

 

Correct, all steel is created in the molten state.  It's what happens after that though that's under discussion.  And saying that because the steel is born in a molten state means all steel used for club heads is cast is not technically accurate as industry people would define.

[denkea]

23 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

An ingot is a hard form shape; molten metal is poured into a mold where it cools, and an ingot of metal is the final result.  In effect, a cast club head is in of itself an ingot of sorts.

 

I know that cold worked comes after hot working.  

 

Correct, all steel is created in the molten state.  It's what happens after that though that's under discussion.  And saying that because the steel is born in a molten state means all steel used for club heads is cast is not technically accurate as industry people would define.

Yep.  My mistake.  Molten steel is in a ladle and then poured and an ingot is formed.  

 

Where casting is involved in the golf biz is when steel is remelted into smaller vessels and poured into molds of club heads.  I agree with your last statement.  

 

In discussing grain structure with metallurgists, in my business lifetime ages ago, it is my understanding that grain has much to do with the chemical composition.  So grain can be manipulated during smelting to an extecnt.  

 

Now where it is improved over just casting in a mold is the forging process.  Remember when Tom Wishon discussed the advantage of the fifth step in the forging process as increasing the quality of the grain structure?   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nessism]

On 10/25/2021 at 5:03 AM, denkea said:

Now where it is improved over just casting in a mold is the forging process.  Remember when Tom Wishon discussed the advantage of the fifth step in the forging process as increasing the quality of the grain structure?   

 

 

That last forging step really locks down the shape, so only minimal grinding is needed.  With less refined shaping through the forging process there is more flash and a greater need for grinding the shape to final form.  The lore of "master craftsman" grinding heads to exacting standards is the old school method.  Modern heads have more forging steps so after the last the head only needs minimal cleanup grinding to bring it to final shape per the designers intent.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Nessism

[UlfBane]

Found this post at:http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=3882

Forged Irons (bending the truth)

http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/styles/aktif/imageset/icon_post_target.gifby lagpressure » Wed May 07, 2014 4:40 pm

I had the chance to play with Ron Chalmers recently who ran the Precision Golf Shaft Company for decades. They made the Apex shaft for the Hogan company among other shafts. I respect Ron and his expertise in the golf gear industry.

Ron told me that true Forged irons irons are not made anymore. What the companies are doing is using the word forged in a very loose way. Apparently they are able to use the word forged to label a club based upon the characteristics or content of the metal. They don't actually forge irons anymore as they used to where a raw piece of metal would be pounded by a huge press slamming it into the basic shape under enormous pressure. From there the club would be ground and tooled removing excess material forming into the iron that would eventually be prepped for chroming etc.

Because chroming is banned in many places now for a variety of reasons, the cast industry took over the making of golf clubs.
The new "FORGED" irons are actually cast, but with a metal that "qualifies" as a forged metal under... well, a bending of the truth as it was know to be in the past generation.

So it should be understood that the reason forged was preferred in the past was for the feel of it. It feels different, like persimmon feels different than metal.

I know for a fact that the thousands of older forged irons that I have put in my bending vice are much softer than any modern forged irons that have come into my shop or Mike's. The softer metals at a minimum offer more options for customizing the heads loft and lie, and of course are much easier to grind and alter the soles, flanges etc particularly with wedges. The classic chromed irons are beautiful to my eye... just as most of the cars were from that era. I like to look down and like what I see. It's part of why I play golf. The aesthetic beauty of the gear, the course, and the feel of the ball itself.

I'm certainly no expert on the mechanical forging process new or old, but just thought I would share hear what I learned from Ron.

[Nessism]

3 hours ago, UlfBane said:

Found this post at:http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=3882

Forged Irons (bending the truth)

http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/styles/aktif/imageset/icon_post_target.gifby lagpressure » Wed May 07, 2014 4:40 pm

I had the chance to play with Ron Chalmers recently who ran the Precision Golf Shaft Company for decades. They made the Apex shaft for the Hogan company among other shafts. I respect Ron and his expertise in the golf gear industry.

Ron told me that true Forged irons irons are not made anymore. What the companies are doing is using the word forged in a very loose way. Apparently they are able to use the word forged to label a club based upon the characteristics or content of the metal. They don't actually forge irons anymore as they used to where a raw piece of metal would be pounded by a huge press slamming it into the basic shape under enormous pressure. From there the club would be ground and tooled removing excess material forming into the iron that would eventually be prepped for chroming etc.

Because chroming is banned in many places now for a variety of reasons, the cast industry took over the making of golf clubs.
The new "FORGED" irons are actually cast, but with a metal that "qualifies" as a forged metal under... well, a bending of the truth as it was know to be in the past generation.

So it should be understood that the reason forged was preferred in the past was for the feel of it. It feels different, like persimmon feels different than metal.

I know for a fact that the thousands of older forged irons that I have put in my bending vice are much softer than any modern forged irons that have come into my shop or Mike's. The softer metals at a minimum offer more options for customizing the heads loft and lie, and of course are much easier to grind and alter the soles, flanges etc particularly with wedges. The classic chromed irons are beautiful to my eye... just as most of the cars were from that era. I like to look down and like what I see. It's part of why I play golf. The aesthetic beauty of the gear, the course, and the feel of the ball itself.

I'm certainly no expert on the mechanical forging process new or old, but just thought I would share hear what I learned from Ron.

 

This is wrong.  There are true one piece forged irons being made in Japan, China, and Thailand (maybe other places too but I'm not sure.)  Nothing in the USA though.

[PhlashPhace]

21 minutes ago, Nessism said:

 

This is wrong.  There are true one piece forged irons being made in Japan, China, and Thailand (maybe other places too but I'm not sure.)  Nothing in the USA though.

+1.  There is a lot of bad information in the topic but that is probably the worst.  I love the type of metal that qualifies as forged argument.  Also I'm not sure that chrome plating is banned to the point it doesn't exist and I'm not sure why that would cause a club to be cast and not forged.

[UlfBane]

Reall

On 11/30/2021 at 2:14 PM, Nessism said:

 

This is wrong.  There are true one piece forged irons being made in Japan, China, and Thailand (maybe other places too but I'm not sure.)  Nothing in the USA though.

There is an interesting thread on Tom Wishon's web site comfirming this.

https://wishongolf.com/2011/09/12/forged-irons-from-japan-vs-us-or-china-the-facts/

I read the whole thing. I then posted a question about form forging andthe use of 8620 asking him to please chime in on this topic. Here is his reply.

 

Ash(@ash)

 4 days ago

First of all Ron is completely misinformed when it comes to his comment that true forged irons are not made anymore. He may know the shaft industry but that comment about forgings is completely wrong. I know this because over the past 20 odd years or so I have worked on the side as a consultant to what is now the leading company in the golf industry that makes true forged irons and drivers as well. They most certainly do forge iron heads for most of the biggest companies that start life as a round, hot dog shaped bar of steel, after which they are forged numerous times in the process of producing a finished forged iron head.

Form forging is not really used much these days as it had its “hey day” in the golf equipment industry in the mid to late 90s going into the early 00s. Back in those days there really were no high quality forging companies. All the US based forging companies had gone out of business due to a lack of demand for their services. And the Asia based forging companies were either non existent then or in such a fledgling stage that their quality was not yet very good. So form forging came about as a way for companies to sort of fool the market into thinking they were making heads that were in essence, “the best of both worlds” – accuracy and consistency of casting + so called softness of a forging. But it was far more marketing hooey than anything else.

Form forging as you say, starts life as an investment cast iron that then is put into a die that applies force to press the head and its material a little “tighter” in an attempt to tighten up the grain structure of the metal. Thing is, it doesn’t really have much of any effect on changing the grain structure and is truthfully more of a marketing thing to make people believe that the head is close to or even the same as a bar forged head. It isn’t. It just becomes a cast head with a little smoother surface is all.

You can true forge any metal, even the hardest stainless steels and titanium alloys, IF YOU HAVE A BIG ENOUGH FORGING PRESS. Obviously the higher the strength of the metal, the more force is required to actually forge the material. In doing actual forged titanium driver heads, this forging factory that I consult for uses a 2000 TON forging press, while most of the forging steps done on carbon steel irons are done with their 600 ton press.

Most forged irons are made from the 10-series of carbon steels, alloys such as 1020 to 1050. In the nomenclature, the 10 digits designates the alloy is a carbon steel while the last two digits inform of the percentage of carbon in the steel, e.g. 1050 means 0.5% carbon, 1020 means 0,2% carbon. The higher the carbon the stronger the carbon steel alloy and the more forging force required to make the heads.

8620 carbon steel is a very versatile carbon steel alloy because it can either be cast or forged. The 10 series can only be forged as the chemistry of the alloy just does not lend itself to the stability and surface consistency required of a castable alloy. So most companies that make an 8620 head will cast it. If they want to make a true forging, most typically they will choose one of the lower carbon 10 series carbon steels.

Hope this helps,
TOM

[TKS]

Thanks for posting this. This asks the question, on the DTC iron models, I find very little detail on forging materials and processes, for all I can tell, they are offering 3 step/stage forgings using open models then CNCing the cavity shapes. Long live Tom Wishon!

Edited December 7, 2021 by TKS
Spelling

[PhlashPhace]

4 hours ago, UlfBane said:

Reall

There is an interesting thread on Tom Wishon's web site comfirming this.

https://wishongolf.com/2011/09/12/forged-irons-from-japan-vs-us-or-china-the-facts/

I read the whole thing. I then posted a question about form forging andthe use of 8620 asking him to please chime in on this topic. Here is his reply.

 

Ash(@ash)

 4 days ago

First of all Ron is completely misinformed when it comes to his comment that true forged irons are not made anymore. He may know the shaft industry but that comment about forgings is completely wrong. I know this because over the past 20 odd years or so I have worked on the side as a consultant to what is now the leading company in the golf industry that makes true forged irons and drivers as well. They most certainly do forge iron heads for most of the biggest companies that start life as a round, hot dog shaped bar of steel, after which they are forged numerous times in the process of producing a finished forged iron head.

Form forging is not really used much these days as it had its “hey day” in the golf equipment industry in the mid to late 90s going into the early 00s. Back in those days there really were no high quality forging companies. All the US based forging companies had gone out of business due to a lack of demand for their services. And the Asia based forging companies were either non existent then or in such a fledgling stage that their quality was not yet very good. So form forging came about as a way for companies to sort of fool the market into thinking they were making heads that were in essence, “the best of both worlds” – accuracy and consistency of casting + so called softness of a forging. But it was far more marketing hooey than anything else.

Form forging as you say, starts life as an investment cast iron that then is put into a die that applies force to press the head and its material a little “tighter” in an attempt to tighten up the grain structure of the metal. Thing is, it doesn’t really have much of any effect on changing the grain structure and is truthfully more of a marketing thing to make people believe that the head is close to or even the same as a bar forged head. It isn’t. It just becomes a cast head with a little smoother surface is all.

You can true forge any metal, even the hardest stainless steels and titanium alloys, IF YOU HAVE A BIG ENOUGH FORGING PRESS. Obviously the higher the strength of the metal, the more force is required to actually forge the material. In doing actual forged titanium driver heads, this forging factory that I consult for uses a 2000 TON forging press, while most of the forging steps done on carbon steel irons are done with their 600 ton press.

Most forged irons are made from the 10-series of carbon steels, alloys such as 1020 to 1050. In the nomenclature, the 10 digits designates the alloy is a carbon steel while the last two digits inform of the percentage of carbon in the steel, e.g. 1050 means 0.5% carbon, 1020 means 0,2% carbon. The higher the carbon the stronger the carbon steel alloy and the more forging force required to make the heads.

8620 carbon steel is a very versatile carbon steel alloy because it can either be cast or forged. The 10 series can only be forged as the chemistry of the alloy just does not lend itself to the stability and surface consistency required of a castable alloy. So most companies that make an 8620 head will cast it. If they want to make a true forging, most typically they will choose one of the lower carbon 10 series carbon steels.

Hope this helps,
TOM

 

When people are talking about 10 series carbon not being used in casting are they talking specifically about golf club heads or do they just not know what they're talking about?  10 series is very commonly used in both sand and investment cast products so I'm assuming they're talking about it not being used in golf club heads specifically.

 

8620 can be both cast and is commonly forged - a lot of crankshafts are forged 8620 - and it's used so widely because it's easy to work with and manipulate through heat treat.

[jsixman]

I had a set of tour issue MC TM irons from 2012 that were 8620, that's what they were sworn to me as, and they were the best feeling irons I have ever hit.  I hit some retail sets of these and there wasn't even a comparison.  I sold them and have been looking for a set ever since. 

[UlfBane]

22 hours ago, PhlashPhace said:

8620 can be both cast and is commonly forged - a lot of crankshafts are forged 8620 - and it's used so widely because it's easy to work with and manipulate through heat treat.

Here is a quote from a similar thread at: https://forum.Not allowed because of spam.com/topic/12650-8620-vs-1020-will-the-real-forged-iron-please-stand-up/

"8620 Carbon Steel can be cast OR forged, although when it is forged, it is generally pre-cast prior to the final forging step.  Cleveland Golf used to call this "form forged".  I studied metallurgy in college as a requirement for my secondary degree (I have a dual degree in Mechanical / Industrial Engineering Technology and Production Management), and we learned that it is far more difficult and costly (because it wears out the forging dies and tooling faster) to forge the harder grades of Carbon Steel, such as 8620."

[PhlashPhace]

6 hours ago, UlfBane said:

Here is a quote from a similar thread at: https://forum.Not allowed because of spam.com/topic/12650-8620-vs-1020-will-the-real-forged-iron-please-stand-up/

"8620 Carbon Steel can be cast OR forged, although when it is forged, it is generally pre-cast prior to the final forging step.  Cleveland Golf used to call this "form forged".  I studied metallurgy in college as a requirement for my secondary degree (I have a dual degree in Mechanical / Industrial Engineering Technology and Production Management), and we learned that it is far more difficult and costly (because it wears out the forging dies and tooling faster) to forge the harder grades of Carbon Steel, such as 8620."

I understand that.  Tooling for golf heads is expensive which is why they forge 10 series.  My main question is why everyone keeps saying 1020 can't be cast.

[UlfBane]

" As long as you keep searching,the answers will come." - Author: Mitch Kynock

 

As I mentioned in my first post on this topic, I currently game 8620 Wilson Staff Irons and wedges and I am very fond of them. I went back to search out the resources that convinced me to buy them in the first place and came across this quote: "Precision-forged from soft 8620 mild carbon steel for buttery soft feedback at impact." http://www.intheholegolf.com/WIL-FG62IS/Wilson-Staff-FG62-Iron-Set.html 

This led me to research the topic what exactly IS meant by "Precision-forged"?
According to WISEGEEK https://www.wise-geek.com/what-is-precision-forging.htm
"In the process of forging metal, there are a variety of techniques utilized, depending on the needs for the product designed and the stage of product manufacturing. Often, forging is meant to shape the metal; however, some techniques go beyond shaping. Precision forging is more of a refinement process than a shaping process. When a product is near completion, precision forging is done using existing forging technology to refine the product to the point that little or no further machining is needed before using the product for its intended purpose. Usually, after the precision process, final touches are done to the metal before either shipping or using the product in another part of the manufacturing process."

 

So, in golf head manufacturing, it is "a refinement process" that theoreticallly COULD be perfomed on either forged or cast heads. ("Form Forging"). 

 

OR IS IT?

 

According to Tom Wishon, Wilson's factory, the last forging house in the U.S. closed down around 1999 and there were little or no forging alternatives that were good and cheap enough offshore, leading to the proliferation of cast heads in the market.

 

Today there are better options.Tom is now consulting for facilities in China that he says are better than the U.S. factories he used to assist.The wesite of one of these modern chinese foundries is a treasure trove of information
https://www.dropforging.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Precision Forging vs Precision Casting

 

Precision Forging is a process where metal is preheated and pressed into desires shapes with forging equipments in different tons.

Precision Casting is the metal forming process by puring metal liquid into shell mold, cut the products from the tree assembling after cooling, and remove excess material for final product by polishing.

Complicated shape parts are available in precision forging. We all know that conventional closed die forging process is limited to produce parts with simple shape. However, in precision forging process, more complex shape is allowed, which is the same as casting. (in other words casting is no longer the only process capable of producing complicated shapes).

 

Steel Forging is More Cost-effective for Large Quantities

 

.../although the cost of forging dies are higher than that of casting molds, ...the unit cost of steel forging is much lower than steel casting. So in terms of cost, when the quantity is large, steel forging is more cost-effective."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottom Line
While it may have made sense to cast a head and then "forge it" 20 years ago,today it appears that modern 8620 "Precision-forged" clubs are in fact FORGED after all, and that makes me VERY HAPPY.
 

[woodriff]

I’d love to find any components made with 303 stainless. Awesome feel. Accuform Canada used 303 for the longest time. 

[Nessism]

15 hours ago, PhlashPhace said:

I understand that.  Tooling for golf heads is expensive which is why they forge 10 series.  My main question is why everyone keeps saying 1020 can't be cast.

 

1020 doesn't lend its self well to casting items such as club heads.  Tom Wishon stated as much in the earlier posted message.  He did sell a club that employed cast 102X steel and I remember reading in his catalog where it was stated that the foundry created a special process to do so.  It's not common though, and since 8620 works so well for casting, that's what's more commonly used.

[Nessism]

9 minutes ago, woodriff said:

I’d love to find any components made with 303 stainless. Awesome feel. Accuform Canada used 303 for the longest time. 

 

304 is used for club heads.  Wishon makes wedges from this material and Bang has some blades.  I'm unaware of anyone using 303.

[PhlashPhace]

19 minutes ago, Nessism said:

 

1020 doesn't lend its self well to casting items such as club heads.  Tom Wishon stated as much in the earlier posted message.  He did sell a club that employed cast 102X steel and I remember reading in his catalog where it was stated that the foundry created a special process to do so.  It's not common though, and since 8620 works so well for casting, that's what's more commonly used.

I agree that everyone seems to have settled in on 8620 because it's easy to cast, versatile and readily available but I don't buy that they couldn't figure out how to cast a head out of 1020.  Alloy foundries cast 1020 every day.

[Bad9]

13 minutes ago, PhlashPhace said:

I agree that everyone seems to have settled in on 8620 because it's easy to cast, versatile and readily available but I don't buy that they couldn't figure out how to cast a head out of 1020.  Alloy foundries cast 1020 every day.

 

I guess the question to answer would "what would be the benefits of casting a clubbed out of 1020 rather than 8620'? What is to be gained from investing in creating a new process?

[UlfBane]

" As long as you keep searching,the answers will come." - Author: Mitch Kynock (UPDATE)

Here is the smoking gun straight from an article done in conjuction with WILSON when announcing the NEW (current) Staff Model irons: https://Not allowed because of spam.com/first-look-wilson-staff-model-blades/

8620 VS. 1020/1025

There are still forged purists who don’t consider 8620 irons true forged irons. Technically, 8620 carbon steel irons are initially cast to a near net shape, and then traditionally forged to finish the process. 1020 or 1025 forgings are forged from a single billet of steel.

“There’s a consistency to the 8620 process,” says Pergande. “We have to forge and polish less material, so we can make a more consistent product from one iron to the next in the same set, and from one set to the next.”

Does 8620 lack the same softness as 1020 or 1025? In reality, it’s very difficult to discern a difference because the irons are so similar in design. Elite players may be able to tell the difference, but sole configuration, CG location, and muscle back properties are equally as important.

 

Guess my FG62's aren't initially forged after all.

 

Good thing I just picked up a set of 1987 Staff Fluid Fell irons (1-PW)!

[JCAG]

If memory serves me correctly, at one time Ralph Maltby had two identical looking and identical spec irons. One head was forged. One head was cast. He had a series of golfers hit them both and asked which was forged and which was cast. Most said they felt and behaved no different. There was no correlation to those that said which was which.

[raggal62]

Wishon's (Dynacraft) circa early 90's C/S Classic 1030 (cast) & chrome plated. I still have a set of these I play on occasion. Pure butter.

[PhlashPhace]

3 hours ago, Bad9 said:

 

I guess the question to answer would "what would be the benefits of casting a clubbed out of 1020 rather than 8620'? What is to be gained from investing in creating a new process?

I'm with you and I get it but I'm just curious why Wishon keeps saying 1020 can't be cast.  I don't think there would need to be much of a new investment though because foundries pour 1020 every day.  

[Nessism]

3 hours ago, PhlashPhace said:

I'm with you and I get it but I'm just curious why Wishon keeps saying 1020 can't be cast.  I don't think there would need to be much of a new investment though because foundries pour 1020 every day.  

 

There is a misunderstanding.  Go to wishongolf.com and look up the 771 CSI iron heads, they are cast 1020 steel.  The material may be a variant of 1020 though, tweaked for casting purposes.  

 

https://wishongolf.com/designs/iron-sets/new-771csi/

[PhlashPhace]

13 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

There is a misunderstanding.  Go to wishongolf.com and look up the 771 CSI iron heads, they are cast 1020 steel.  The material may be a variant of 1020 though, tweaked for casting purposes.  

 

https://wishongolf.com/designs/iron-sets/new-771csi/

That's why I found it curious when Ari and Tom have both posted that 1020 cannot be cast.  I agree that there probably aren't any advantage to casting something with 1020 when 8620 is more versatile and probably better suited but to say 1020 cannot be cast isn't accurate.