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Ben Hogan 1988 Redline vs 1999 Apex Blade


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[quote name='super20dan' timestamp='1391255839' post='8576984']
but do we know what was in jacks bag? he may and prob pulled a faldo and just carried the slazenger bag. faldo carried a wilson bag with mizuno irons. heck even his "wilson " putter was the taylor made version.. its hard to imagine a person like jack not using his fav clubs for such a big event . the hardest thing about collecting hogans is deciding which set to play!
[/quote]

No we don't "know."

But we know what Jack wrote. He was very specific in writing about his ability to take clubs that were close to what he normally played and was able to make them perform as well as his normal set. I don't doubt that for a minute.

Believe what you want, but Jack has credibility with me that no one else has. I choose to believe him.

What Faldo and others did means nothing. They didn't have Jack's talent. Neither has anyone else, before or since.

Everyone talks about Hogan, but Hogan had to work 8 hours a day to groove a one way miss.

He had to have clubs made 6 degrees flat and grips with reminders so large that they are probably non conforming today offset in such a way that the club was naturally gripped wide open. And heads that were ground in such a way that they naturally flopped open at address. The woods were extra long (I've read it was a 45 inch driver) extra heavy and extremely stiff. No doubt he was great at using them, but he had to have a lot of help from the equipment in order to make his swing work. There were any number of stories over the years about guys ordering clubs from Hogan made exactly to Ben's specs and all of them were returned as unplayable.

Not denying Hogan's genius. To come up with all of that in a day when the only feedback one had was one's eyes and hands was remarkable. My admiration for the man is unquestioned, and everything above is simply a repeat of things I have read. I've read everything I could get my hands on about Ben Hogan.

But from all of the anecdotes over the years, Jack's clubs were pretty "stock." Of course there was the counterweighting and the leather grips that made that distinctive sound in the bag, but when it came to Jack, it wasn't much about the clubs.

"You think we play the same stuff you do?"

                                             --Rory McIlroy 

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[quote name='Shallowface' timestamp='1391261637' post='8577202']
[quote name='super20dan' timestamp='1391255839' post='8576984']
but do we know what was in jacks bag? he may and prob pulled a faldo and just carried the slazenger bag. faldo carried a wilson bag with mizuno irons. heck even his "wilson " putter was the taylor made version.. its hard to imagine a person like jack not using his fav clubs for such a big event . the hardest thing about collecting hogans is deciding which set to play!
[/quote]

No we don't "know."

But we know what Jack wrote. He was very specific in writing about his ability to take clubs that were close to what he normally played and was able to make them perform as well as his normal set. I don't doubt that for a minute.

Believe what you want, but Jack has credibility with me that no one else has. I choose to believe him.

What Faldo and others did means nothing. They didn't have Jack's talent. Neither has anyone else, before or since.

Everyone talks about Hogan, but Hogan had to work 8 hours a day to groove a one way miss.

He had to have clubs made 6 degrees flat and grips with reminders so large that they are probably non conforming today offset in such a way that the club was naturally gripped wide open. And heads that were ground in such a way that they naturally flopped open at address. The woods were extra long (I've read it was a 45 inch driver) extra heavy and extremely stiff. No doubt he was great at using them, but he had to have a lot of help from the equipment in order to make his swing work. There were any number of stories over the years about guys ordering clubs from Hogan made exactly to Ben's specs and all of them were returned as unplayable.

Not denying Hogan's genius. To come up with all of that in a day when the only feedback one had was one's eyes and hands was remarkable. My admiration for the man is unquestioned, and everything above is simply a repeat of things I have read. I've read everything I could get my hands on about Ben Hogan.

But from all of the anecdotes over the years, Jack's clubs were pretty "stock." Of course there was the counterweighting and the leather grips that made that distinctive sound in the bag, but when it came to Jack, it wasn't much about the clubs.
[/quote]http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2010-06/golf-johnson-equipment-0607

Ping G400 Testing G410.  10.5 set at small -
Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood

Ping G410 5 hybrid-not much use.  
Mizuno JPX 921 Hot Metal. 5-G
Vokey 54.10, 2009 58.12 M, Testing TM MG2 60* TW grind and MG3 56* TW grind.  Or Ping Glide Stealth, 54,58 SS.  
Odyssey Pro #1 black
Hoofer, Ecco, Bushnell
ProV1x-mostly
 

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Yeah...except for the "little Mexican boy" part. I imagine the delivery guy left that out when he gave Lee the clubs to demo.


Driver 10.5 Taylor Made Burner 2.0
Ping 3 and 7 woods
Component 5 and 6 hybrids
and 8 and 9 irons (SGI)

Scratch 47 degree PW

Alpha SW

All graphite shafts
Putter: uh, I have a few
 

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[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1391289642' post='8579376']
Yeah...except for the "little Mexican boy" part. I imagine the delivery guy left that out when he gave Lee the clubs to demo.
[/quote]Wow, the PC patrol is out today.

Ping G400 Testing G410.  10.5 set at small -
Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood

Ping G410 5 hybrid-not much use.  
Mizuno JPX 921 Hot Metal. 5-G
Vokey 54.10, 2009 58.12 M, Testing TM MG2 60* TW grind and MG3 56* TW grind.  Or Ping Glide Stealth, 54,58 SS.  
Odyssey Pro #1 black
Hoofer, Ecco, Bushnell
ProV1x-mostly
 

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[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1391289885' post='8579412']
[quote name='Kirasdad' timestamp='1391289642' post='8579376']
Yeah...except for the "little Mexican boy" part. I imagine the delivery guy left that out when he gave Lee the clubs to demo.
[/quote]Wow, the PC patrol is out today.
[/quote]

Lee used that phrase to describe himself in any number of interviews over the years.

"You think we play the same stuff you do?"

                                             --Rory McIlroy 

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I deleted my post that evidently caused the problem above.
I posted a remembrance of a story where Hogan paid Lee Trevino what I considered the ultimate compliment.
However, someone took offense to Hogan's words and a moderator stepped in.
Judge for yourself if the story is offensive.

http://www.gothamgolfblog.com/2012/07/lee-buck-trevino.html

"You think we play the same stuff you do?"

                                             --Rory McIlroy 

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[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1391360113' post='8583898']
I was wondering about that...being chastised for a direct quote, wow, just wow!
[/quote]

To be clear, the moderator did not remove my post (I did that), only the reaction to it.

But the reaction I saw, compared to things I've seen elsewhere on this site (that get no reaction from mods), was brief, tame and inoffensive. My contribution was that Trevino often refers to himself with the exact phrase Hogan used, and anyone can Google that for proof.

After thinking about it, I thought people might want to know what happened, so I posted a link to the story rather than the story itself.

Hogan wasn't one to hand out compliments, and to say what he said, however he phrased it, is a great story.

"You think we play the same stuff you do?"

                                             --Rory McIlroy 

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[quote name='Shallowface' timestamp='1391365289' post='8584340']
[quote name=''53 Precision' timestamp='1391360113' post='8583898']
I was wondering about that...being chastised for a direct quote, wow, just wow!
[/quote]

To be clear, the moderator did not remove my post (I did that), only the reaction to it.

But the reaction I saw, compared to things I've seen elsewhere on this site (that get no reaction from mods), was brief, tame and inoffensive. My contribution was that Trevino often refers to himself with the exact phrase Hogan used, and anyone can Google that for proof.

After thinking about it, I thought people might want to know what happened, so I posted a link to the story rather than the story itself.

Hogan wasn't one to hand out compliments, and to say what he said, however he phrased it, is a great story.
[/quote]I for one was not offended and took it in context.

Ping G400 Testing G410.  10.5 set at small -
Ping G410 3, 5 and 7 wood

Ping G410 5 hybrid-not much use.  
Mizuno JPX 921 Hot Metal. 5-G
Vokey 54.10, 2009 58.12 M, Testing TM MG2 60* TW grind and MG3 56* TW grind.  Or Ping Glide Stealth, 54,58 SS.  
Odyssey Pro #1 black
Hoofer, Ecco, Bushnell
ProV1x-mostly
 

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Right, I'm going to give my review of the 88' Redlines I had delivered today. I had been looking for the reputably best bladed irons for a long time. I've always played blades and loved the game more for learning how to master them. In doing my research the 88' Redlines by Hogan kept cropping up time after time. Lots of Hogan players online were saying the feeling of Hogan clubs in general and specifically the 88's was second to none. I had to find out.

Picked a set up on ebay for stupidly good money (considering their reputation). Fitted with the Apex 4 stiff steel shafts and standard length, possibly 1 deg up - lovely jubbly.

Got back from the range a few hours ago after taking them out for a test drive and I still can't quite understand how I'm going to accurately describe what they are like. They are unbelievable. Stunningly unbelievable. The feeling when you pure one out the centre is golf taken to another level. Truly. It's not that it's a super soft feeling. I have a set of Taylormade Miura forged 300s, and a set of Bridgestone J40cbs which are super soft. These are more of a simple pure strike feeling that leaves a faint pleasant tingle in your hands as the ball disappears into the far distance. The 88's are coming up to 25 years old, but I'm hitting them better and further than my current gamers which are modern muscleback blades.

And then there's the Apex 4 stiff steel shaft. I'd read these were fabulous shafts but I was a little skeptical. I've played S300's, R300s, PX 6.0, 6.5's, KBS stiff, Nippon Super Peening Blue''s all of which are excellent shafts. The Apex 4's are something else. On the downswing you feel like their lagging big style, but then they kick in with unreal power. Kind of like a cracking a whip. There's a lag, then bang. They feel very stable and very predictable. That and the nice heavy head weight and you know where you are at any point in the swing. They are stupidly easy to work the ball with either way, and sit lovely behind the ball with practically no offset (hoganites please correct me if I'm wrong on the offset)

Why hasn't Ben Hogan golf clubs taken over the world??

I am now a full Ben Hogan convert. Now I understand what the fans mean when they say Hogan irons feel different to everything else. They do. They really do.

My club ho days are over. What would be the point in getting anything else? Nothing could beat these clubs, the sensation at impact, the way they sit at address, the confidence you get when looking down at the short irons. That unbelievable Apex shaft!! I can't wait to get out on the course, just for the pleasure of hitting a ball with them. I suppose that's the best compliment you can give any club, that you just want that sensation again when you pure it :))

I don't suppose anyone will read this but hey, I enjoyed writing it :))

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great review. this is exacty how i feel about hogans. how could equiptment this good not get noticed by more players? when i was testing my apex 2,s -my last shot was flushed and got the same thing. a wonderfull soft feeling -almost like you didnt hit a ball but look up to see the ball soaring like a rocket. i have redlines on my wish list now too.

73 hogan apex

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I sent my Apex 2s off to Neil Gascoigne in Newcastle to have the lofts checked and the lies flattened (2 degrees)....and they came back today. Same story as Coleydan, while they've been away I've used the whole range of my back-up sets They are, in order of love, '63 FC 4000 blackface Diamond Mac Tourneys, 67/68 Dynas, Dyna adjustabacks, '58 Mac PT2s copperface, 87/88 Fluid Feels. I didn't have time to take out the Nicoll Cottons,
The Hogans were a set apart, as described above which I won't attempt to plagiarize.
Welcome back to Daddy! :happy:

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[quote name='stixman' timestamp='1392066133' post='8638835']
I sent my Apex 2s off to Neil Gascoigne in Newcastle to have the lofts checked and the lies flattened (2 degrees)....and they came back today. Same story as Coleydan, while they've been away I've used the whole range of my back-up sets They are, in order of love, '63 FC 4000 blackface Diamond Mac Tourneys, 67/68 Dynas, Dyna adjustabacks, '58 Mac PT2s copperface, 87/88 Fluid Feels. I didn't have time to take out the Nicoll Cottons,
The Hogans were a set apart, as described above which I won't attempt to plagiarize.
Welcome back to Daddy! :happy:
[/quote]

Chris - I heard Neil has dipped his toe into hickory, buying a few hickories from Scott Patrick recently ...

We'll all have to have 9 holes of Hogan blades and 9 holes of hickory when the weather gets better !

[i]"Don't play too much golf ... two rounds a day are plenty" [/i]

[b]Harry Vardon[/b] (1870-1937)

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[quote name='Shallowface' timestamp='1392068409' post='8639101']
So what were you guys playing in 1988 that caused you to miss out on these the first time around?
[/quote]

Yeah, I remember seeing the '88 Redlines a few months after I spent some big bucks on my '87 PC's (1-SW)...I knew after a few mishits with the PC's that the sweet spot was closer to the hosel than I preferred it to be and about the size of a gnat!

CHASING CLASSIC CLUBS
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I was at West Point golf course in the late fall of 1987 (playing Hogan Apex PCs) at the time; playing in a College golf tourney. One of the top players finished 18 and dropped his bag right next to me and I saw these Redlines. He must have had the 1st set that came out, or knew the Rep. My twin brother bought them in 88 and I kept playing my PCs. I loved my PCs.

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in 88 is was still playing my pat simmons tiger shark irons but was beggining to see the limitations of them. in 89i bought used 1983 ping eye2 irons from a pro that had worn several of them out. i didnt care just so excited to get pings(my dream clubs ) played them till big bertha irons came out in 96. i didnt pick up a hogan till last year. bought a lot of clubs for 10$ at flea market. didnt even want the apex irons but was told i had to take the whole bag full or no deal(wanted a few woods and a hybrid from the bag) the hogans were in such bad shape i thought of selling them as scrap metal-----blastphmy!! strangely the apex,s had new grips on them. this gave me a clue that i should at least try them out. so glad i did! i was just amazed.

73 hogan apex

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I have to admit, I really don't get the whole affinity for the Redlines. In fact, the Redlines had me looking away from Hogan for my early blade sets. Also don't care for the Apex shaft too much, but then I'm a DGX user, and I haven't come across many sets with Apex 5. :)

The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM 300 Mini 11.5*, 43.5", Phenom NL 60X -or- Cobra SpeedZone, ProtoPype 80S, 43.5"

Fwy woods: King LTD 3/4, Rogue Black 75X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour 3w, NV105 X -or- TEE E8 Beta 12*, Rogue Silver 70X
Hybrid:  Cobra King Tec 2h, MMT 80 S -or- TEE CBX 17*, HZRDUS 85 6.0

2 iron:  Arias D-23, Modus3 120 S; Mizuno MP-20 HMB, NS Pro 950 R

Irons grab bag:  1-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 1-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R; 2-PW Golden Ram Vibration Matched, NS Pro 950WF S; testing: Arias D-23 5i w/Modus 120 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Cobra Snakebite 56* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S -or- Ram TW282 SW -or- Ram TW276 SW
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34" -or- Cleveland Huntington Beach #1, 34.5" -or- Golden Ram TW Custom, 34" -or- Rife Bimini, 34" -or- Maxfli TM-2, 35"
Balls: Chrome Soft, Kirkland Signature 3pc (v3), Wilson Triad

Grip preference: various GripMaster leather options or Star Grip Sidewinders of assorted colors

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[quote name='HoganApexBlades' timestamp='1392069962' post='8639303']
[quote name='Shallowface' timestamp='1392068409' post='8639101']
So what were you guys playing in 1988 that caused you to miss out on these the first time around?
[/quote]

Yeah, I remember seeing the '88 Redlines a few months after I spent some big bucks on my '87 PC's (1-SW)...I knew after a few mishits with the PC's that the sweet spot was closer to the hosel than I preferred it to be and about the size of a gnat!
[/quote]

I remember reading somewhere that the PCs were really the beginning of the downfall of the Hogan Company. So many of their club pro staff, not to mention those pros' members, found them so difficult to hit that Hogan lost many of their club pros to Ping, which was red hot with the Eye2 at that time.

"You think we play the same stuff you do?"

                                             --Rory McIlroy 

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[quote name='super20dan' timestamp='1392122006' post='8642985']
was the pc between the apex 2 and redline? timeline wise?
[/quote]

Yes - exactly right.

[quote name='Shallowface' timestamp='1392117015' post='8642801']
[quote name='HoganApexBlades' timestamp='1392069962' post='8639303']
[quote name='Shallowface' timestamp='1392068409' post='8639101']
So what were you guys playing in 1988 that caused you to miss out on these the first time around?
[/quote]

Yeah, I remember seeing the '88 Redlines a few months after I spent some big bucks on my '87 PC's (1-SW)...I knew after a few mishits with the PC's that the sweet spot was closer to the hosel than I preferred it to be and about the size of a gnat!
[/quote]

I remember reading somewhere that the PCs were really the beginning of the downfall of the Hogan Company. So many of their club pro staff, not to mention those pros' members, found them so difficult to hit that Hogan lost many of their club pros to Ping, which was red hot with the Eye2 at that time.
[/quote]

I can understand how they might suffer in comparison to Eye 2s - but I really think the "difficulty" of PCs is exaggerated. I've never found them any harder to hit than other blades - and the sole grind is, IMO, slightly more forgiving than many (including the Apex II)

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The PCs were a beautiful set and IMO not any harder to hit than any other players club of the time. If you noticed the serial numbers on the hosel of the PC are pretty much all the same, except for the 1st letter. For example some models start with H7xxx, others Fxxx and I believe K. I'm pretty sure the model with the H were made the year Hogan made them with a rounder sole. I had that set in the late 80s for thru the very early 90s when I ditched them for a set of Nicklaus JNP cavity back. I never found the PC hard to hit. The model with the sharper leading edge might be a slighly different story. I have a set of those now and have played with them occassionally. I had apex 4's in my original set and love that shaft.

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[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1392123369' post='8643059']



I can understand how they might suffer in comparison to Eye 2s - but I really think the "difficulty" of PCs is exaggerated. I've never found them any harder to hit than other blades - and the sole grind is, IMO, slightly more forgiving than many (including the Apex II)
[/quote]

I too always thought the PCs felt really solid.

But the Eye2 was much easier for most, including club pros, and evidently that caused an exodus from Hogan to Ping. Not even the Magnum could stem the tide! :-)

I never did play well with the Eye2 irons (liked the woods and oddly enough the wedges). Too light and too much offset. Switched from them to FG-17s, which is what I was playing in 1988.

"You think we play the same stuff you do?"

                                             --Rory McIlroy 

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The eye2s are still a forgiving club, even by today's standards. When they first arrived, they were almost like cheating. They certainly became the biggest selling iron of their time, probably of all time. As I'd guess that Ping had a relatively small share of the iron market before the Eye 2s, they must have taken a huge bite out of every other traditional forged blade. I think the PCs were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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[quote name='Shallowface' timestamp='1392068409' post='8639101']
So what were you guys playing in 1988 that caused you to miss out on these the first time around?
[/quote]

lol. Great question. In 1988 I was madly in love with a set of '84 Staff Fluid Feels. I got a killer deal on them and they kicked a worn out set of '68 VIPs out of the bag. Shiny new Redlines were too rich for my blood back then, though I can remember them coming out and being VERY jealous whenever I'd see them in someone else's bag.

Ahhhhh.....back in the day.....Everyone either played blades of one strip or another, or BeCu Eye2s. Simpler times.

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[quote name='freddiec' timestamp='1392124909' post='8643201']
The PCs were a beautiful set and IMO not any harder to hit than any other players club of the time. If you noticed the serial numbers on the hosel of the PC are pretty much all the same, except for the 1st letter. For example some models start with H7xxx, others Fxxx and I believe K. I'm pretty sure the model with the H were made the year Hogan made them with a rounder sole. I had that set in the late 80s for thru the very early 90s when I ditched them for a set of Nicklaus JNP cavity back. I never found the PC hard to hit. The model with the sharper leading edge might be a slighly different story. I have a set of those now and have played with them occassionally. I had apex 4's in my original set and love that shaft.
[/quote]

As far as I know, the serial number on the Apex PC blades indicate the month of manufacture (1st digit) / year of manufacture (2nd digit) / model # (3rd & 4th digits) / Shaft flex (5 digit) / Swingweight (6th digit). My PC's are G72042 which should mean G = JULY / 7 =1987 / 20 = PC / 4 = Apex 4 / 2 = D2.

Of course, I could be wrong...

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      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
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      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
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