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PING’s Solheim Proposes Ball Rating System


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[quote name='Outlier' timestamp='1324328015' post='3961647']
Who says they [b]have [/b]to over-haul the course? It's 7000 yds., the avg. drive becomes 318, the average score becomes 67- NOW WHAT? Does the earth stop rotating or something?


[quote name='swbyps' timestamp='1324327614' post='3961609']

Respect the opinion but the fact is driving distances have been continually going up over the past years, and golf courses have continually had to increase yardage or move tees back. its getting to the point where great course setups with fairway bunkers etc are getting pushed out of rotation in pro events because the players are hitting over what used to be obstacles that required accuracy.

There's going to be an exception to every rule, as is Luke Donald. Whats worrisome is not the distances of today, but if the pace continues, at what point does it hurt the game when courses become 'too short' and the courses require more expensive upgrades. Isn't golf already expensive enough?

Golf is quickly becoming a game where you bomb it off the tee and hope to hit a putt. This is why some believe that today's game is a putting contest compared to the superior ball striking of 15-20 years ago. Its time to regulate the ball, i just hate the idea of offering a 'juiced ball' for short hitters that makes up for the fact that courses are becoming longer and longer.

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[quote name='Outlier' timestamp='1324328015' post='3961647']
Who says they [b]have [/b]to over-haul the course? It's 7000 yds., the avg. drive becomes 318, the average score becomes 67- NOW WHAT? Does the earth stop rotating or something?


[quote name='swbyps' timestamp='1324327614' post='3961609']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1324323792' post='3961295']
That...would never work. You could roll the ball back to balata and guys would still find ways to nail it 290+. The flaw in the logic (pertaining to the tour) is that it is the ball alone that makes guys so long. This mentality is fostered along by an aging group of former players that still fail to realize the amount of talent, skill, and strength possessed by the current best players. A shorter ball would only further serve to disadvantage the shorter hitters on tour. The longest guys are always going to be long, no matter what they play.
[/quote]

Yes the longer guys will always remain longer but I think the point is that the courses cannot keep up with the rate of the technology that contributes to them being able to hit it longer. Something has to be done because the average driving distance on tour is going to continue to increase. If its 300 now, where will it be 10 years from now? In todays economy I believe the issue is that these courses cannot continue with these major overhauls every 4 or 5 years in order to remain a viable venue for tour events. The only thing that happens in those cases is that some of those costs manifest in the form of higher membership dues, daily fees, beer and dogs at the turn, etc. The trickle down effect of that is eventually less people paying...etc etc etc. Im sure you get the point.
[/quote]
[/quote]

No..in the grand scheme of life..like the earth not rotating..it doesnt matter at all. But..apparently some (possibly many) of the powers that be in golf feel that this increased distance is an issue. Broadcasters, golf writers and commentators talk about it all the time. Im sure they're not making up these concerns or just blowing smoke. They are hearing it from somewhere. My guess is that somewhere is people like course architects, designers, managers, tour officials and the like. Seriously....you cant let this technology go unchecked then have the courses go stagnant because its too expensive to pay for renovations. Sooner or later...

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[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1324325169' post='3961419']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1324323792' post='3961295']
That...would never work. You could roll the ball back to balata and guys would still find ways to nail it 290+. The flaw in the logic (pertaining to the tour) is that it is the ball alone that makes guys so long. This mentality is fostered along by an aging group of former players that still fail to realize the amount of talent, skill, and strength possessed by the current best players. A shorter ball would only further serve to disadvantage the shorter hitters on tour. [b]The longest guys are always going to be long, no matter what they play.[/b]
[/quote]

Gonna have to agree with you here. Especially the bold
[/quote]

Yea but imagine Bubba with a balata ball, that dude would spin it 100 yards on some shots.

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^ HoosierMizuno you miss-quoted, it wasn't me that said that.

[quote name='ibradley' timestamp='1324328545' post='3961677']
I have a friend who plays on the Canadian Tour. He played in a special event the USGA put on to test a ball that flew about 30 yards shorter. He said he LOVED it. He really enjoyed hitting mid and the occasional long iron into greens instead of short irons and wedges. He loved being able to hit more drivers off tees instead of 3 & 5 woods.

I am a scratch and I would love to have the option of playing a shorter golf ball. I think it would be great to get more variety in the game.
[/quote]
I agree, you can't just say "well hit shorter clubs off the tee" because its not the same. I don't even play my driver anymore, even par 5's are reachable with long irons/woods off the tee.

I think it would be great if the game could get back to more of a ball-striking contest than putting. Pros don't hit enough long irons into par 4's. If everyone has a short iron for a second shot and greens it than its all just putting. Long iron in hand and the margin for error is greater and thus the reward for good ball striking is greater as well.

Be it this 3 ball distance system or overall limit to the ball I think something needs to happen. Makes a lot more sense to change the ball than it does the course.

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[quote name='Outlier' timestamp='1324328015' post='3961647']
Who says they [b]have [/b]to over-haul the course? It's 7000 yds., the avg. drive becomes 318, the average score becomes 67- NOW WHAT? Does the earth stop rotating or something?


[quote name='swbyps' timestamp='1324327614' post='3961609']

If courses don't attempt to keep up with the improving club/shaft/ball technology allowing players to gain distance year to year, in 15 years we're going to be watching a glorified chip and putt contest. The whole point to moving tee beds back is an attempt to actually have a pro hit a mid iron as a second shot. as it is now short courses become a test of who's putter gets hot over the weekend.

I agree that long hitters will always be longer and they should have a advantage as it is a skill to be able to generate more clubhead speed, but the point is shorter hitters are becoming longer and longer hitters are becoming longer and there comes a point where the game of golf is fundamentally changed if courses can't keep up with distances players are hitting it.

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[quote name='bepo' timestamp='1324331068' post='3961907']I agree, you can't just say "well hit shorter clubs off the tee" because its not the same. I don't even play my driver anymore, even par 5's are reachable with long irons/woods off the tee.

I think it would be great if the game could get back to more of a ball-striking contest than putting. Pros don't hit enough long irons into par 4's. If everyone has a short iron for a second shot and greens it than its all just putting. Long iron in hand and the margin for error is greater and thus the reward for good ball striking is greater as well.

Be it this 3 ball distance system or overall limit to the ball I think something needs to happen. Makes a lot more sense to change the ball than it does the course.
[/quote]

I also agree that there should be an emphasis on ball striking as well. But they made some of the holes at AAC (PGA Champ) long enough to need long iron shots in there, and everyone cried and complained.

They have tournaments at GREAT courses where ball striking is at a premium and strategy is a necessity, but nobody really cares about them anymore. The long ball is sexy, and they love to talk that up on the telecasts.

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I wonder how much the champions of the shorter ball debate actually spend playing with true amateurs. Jack's monocle falls out every time he sees a pro hit a 190yd 7 iron but 99.99% of golfers still can't play a course over 6500yds. Meanwhile the pros driving distance hasn't really increased in 8 years. The only difference is that currently there are MORE long hitters then there used to be, but no one today is longer then Hank Kuehne was in 2004. So i don't know where the comments like "golf is becoming this" Or "golf is becoming that" etc etc....golf hasn't changed in 7-8 years now.

The arguments fall something like this

1) Courses are becoming obsolete for tour players
-Really? Maybe if we spent the millions of dollars changing the actual layout to make it more risk/reward then simply adding 75yds to each tee players wouldn't resort to bomb and gouge. Guys like Rees Jones thump their chest adding yardage while the people who hire him complain about distance becoming more predominant. That is the definition of idiocy. If all food in the world was 10 feet high would it be surprising if 100 years from now earth suddenly featured much better jumpers? It's called Darwinism. You want less distance then shorten the courses. Brian Gay does just fine against the bombers at Harbour Town

2) Courses are too expensive to maintain
-You mean the tour courses that are generally swanky resorts or swanky private clubs? Boohoo, they can afford it. If a course designer is designing a 7300yd course not intended for tour use he needs his head examined because he is a moron.

what a ridiculous idea changing the ball is, i'm glad i stopped playing Ping clubs

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Exactly...I agree with all these points, including:

" [color="#1C2837"][size="2"]No..in the grand scheme of life..like the earth not rotating..it doesnt matter at all. But..apparently some (possibly many) of the powers that be in golf feel that this increased distance is an issue. Broadcasters, golf writers and commentators talk about it all the time. Im sure they're not making up these concerns or just blowing smoke. They are hearing it from somewhere. My guess is that somewhere is people like course architects, designers, managers, tour officials and the like. Seriously....you cant let this technology go unchecked then have the courses go stagnant because its too expensive to pay for renovations. Sooner or later...[/size][/color]<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">[color="#1C2837"][size="2"]WITB 2025: D 5w 6i 7i 8i 9i 45* 48* 50* 53* 56* 60* 64* long putter"[/size][/color]
[size="2"] [/size]
[color="#1c2837"][size="2"]My fundamental point is that the stated RATIONAL is a bogus one. They "outlawed" dunking in college for a spell when a guy named Lew Alcindor came along because it "fundamentally altered the game....".[/size][/color]
[size="2"][color="#1c2837"]No I say it's all a bogus con-job to artificially keep little rich dudes viable. Still haven't had anybody address why bid daddy grooves on wedges were an affront to the inherent skill of the game, but grooves on putters are not? [/color][/size]
[size="2"] [/size]
[size="2"][color="#1c2837"]As to the COST to lengthen argument, I am calling BS on it too. Over time (say 5 years), what do you think costs more: (a) lengthening a hole 70 yards; or (b) installing a "sub-air" system, fertilizer, pesticides, maintenance or similar to ensure the absolute pristine year-round (lush deep green, 100% smooth) conditions players require now-a-days? Many would argue these new conditions [i]fundamentally changed the nature of the game [/i]as much as anything else.[/color][/size]
[size="2"] [/size]
[size="2"][color="#1c2837"]At the end of the day, I just see these proposed and new rules as hypocritical at every turn and they always strike me as full of selective and subjective logic. [/color][/size]
[size="2"] [/size]
[size="2"] [/size]
[size="2"] [/size]
[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1324335036' post='3962255']
[quote name='bepo' timestamp='1324331068' post='3961907']I agree, you can't just say "well hit shorter clubs off the tee" because its not the same. I don't even play my driver anymore, even par 5's are reachable with long irons/woods off the tee.

I think it would be great if the game could get back to more of a ball-striking contest than putting. Pros don't hit enough long irons into par 4's. If everyone has a short iron for a second shot and greens it than its all just putting. Long iron in hand and the margin for error is greater and thus the reward for good ball striking is greater as well.

Be it this 3 ball distance system or overall limit to the ball I think something needs to happen. Makes a lot more sense to change the ball than it does the course.
[/quote]

I also agree that there should be an emphasis on ball striking as well. But they made some of the holes at AAC (PGA Champ) long enough to need long iron shots in there, and everyone cried and complained.

They have tournaments at GREAT courses where ball striking is at a premium and strategy is a necessity, but nobody really cares about them anymore. The long ball is sexy, and they love to talk that up on the telecasts.
[/quote]

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I don't have a horse in the race, but I think the "Suits" will debate this forever, and make another bad decision for the game. The first being the groove rule.

Dear USGA and R&A, make golf fun for everyone and make the game easier and faster. Stop worrying about the guys on Tour and focus on the masses.

(I don't care if they make the groove bigger, balls longer, drivers bigger, or courses shorter, just keep golf fun. Especially considering the number of players who are competitive VS. non handicap carrying players)

People love hitting their wedge 40 feet away and watching it spin back 10 feet, everyone of them.

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Considering the men's tees at my home course are 6500 and I drive the ball around 280-290... I do not shoot par. I think distance doesn't mean anything other than hitting a shorter club into the green..

Although I usually play the black tees, which are only 6900 yards. I think this ball changing would be stupid. I am gonna keep using Pro V1's.

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[quote name='NewGeneration' timestamp='1324393967' post='3965075']
Considering the men's tees at my home course are 6500 and I drive the ball around 280-290... I do not shoot par. I think distance doesn't mean anything other than hitting a shorter club into the green..

Although I usually play the black tees, which are only 6900 yards. I think this ball changing would be stupid. I am gonna keep using Pro V1's.
[/quote]

1) I would never say "only" 6900 yards

2) Who cares how far you hit it

3) I don't think a 22 handicap should play a prov1 or play the back tees.

(I don't if you are 15, that's foolish)

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While the ball will need to be regulated and I've said so many times that MLB has an official ball, NCAA Football has theirs, NFL another, etc etc, it is time for golf to not necessarily pick a brand, but enforce a limit.

But what's next, ban the pros from hitting the gym?

I think a lot of the distance gains we see are the evolution of Masters winners going from Craig Stadlers towards Tigers and Shwartzels. No pun intended, but even Daly isn't fit enough to get a tour card anymore. Don't get me started on how Duval lost his game (and gained about 5 pant sizes)

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[quote name='Fatz' timestamp='1324398592' post='3965491']
While the ball will need to be regulated and I've said so many times that MLB has an official ball, NCAA Football has theirs, NFL another, etc etc, it is time for golf to not necessarily pick a brand, but enforce a limit.

But what's next, ban the pros from hitting the gym?

I think a lot of the distance gains we see are the evolution of Masters winners going from Craig Stadlers towards Tigers and Shwartzels. No pun intended, but even Daly isn't fit enough to get a tour card anymore. Don't get me started on how [b]Duval lost his game (and gained about 5 pant sizes)[/b]
[/quote]

And just how did Duval lose his game, by getting fat? Pretty sure there is more to it than that.

run of the mill driver with stock shaft
a couple of outdated hybrids
shovel-ier shovels
wedges from same shovel company
some putter with a dead insert and
a hideous grip

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[quote name='Fatz' timestamp='1324398592' post='3965491']
While the ball will need to be regulated and I've said so many times that MLB has an official ball, NCAA Football has theirs, NFL another, etc etc, it is time for golf to not necessarily pick a brand, but enforce a limit.

But what's next, ban the pros from hitting the gym?

I think a lot of the distance gains we see are the evolution of Masters winners going from Craig Stadlers towards Tigers and Shwartzels. No pun intended, but even Daly isn't fit enough to get a tour card anymore. Don't get me started on how Duval lost his game (and gained about 5 pant sizes)
[/quote]


I don;t think anyone with the name FATZ, needs to be commenting on anyone's talent level. Golf is 90% mental...

maybe that's why Tiger struggled, because his body fat percentage went up by .05% ?

come on.

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I have been around serious trainers, extremely dedicated athletes (weekend warriors to pros) and nutritionists since the mid 80's. David Duval achieved a body transformation like none I have [u]ever [/u]seen without serious hormonal assistance. He became lean [u]and[/u] more muscular than he had been his whole life from what I have seen. Plenty of dedicated folks are able to bulk up from being skinny; plenty of dedicated folks are able to slim down from being chunky....I cannot think of a similar natural case of building that much muscle while losing that much fat.

Always curious he was never "talked" about regarding the completely yo-yo. Either he is a genetic anomaly or.....

When did the PGA begin to enforce a PED policy?




[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1324399299' post='3965547']
[quote name='Fatz' timestamp='1324398592' post='3965491']
While the ball will need to be regulated and I've said so many times that MLB has an official ball, NCAA Football has theirs, NFL another, etc etc, it is time for golf to not necessarily pick a brand, but enforce a limit.

But what's next, ban the pros from hitting the gym?

I think a lot of the distance gains we see are the evolution of Masters winners going from Craig Stadlers towards Tigers and Shwartzels. No pun intended, but even Daly isn't fit enough to get a tour card anymore. Don't get me started on how [b]Duval lost his game (and gained about 5 pant sizes)[/b]
[/quote]

And just how did Duval lose his game, by getting fat? Pretty sure there is more to it than that.
[/quote]

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[quote name='Outlier' timestamp='1324404269' post='3965927']
I have been around serious trainers, extremely dedicated athletes (weekend warriors to pros) and nutritionists since the mid 80's. David Duval achieved a body transformation like none I have [u]ever [/u]seen without serious hormonal assistance. He became lean [u]and[/u] more muscular than he had been his whole life from what I have seen. Plenty of dedicated folks are able to bulk up from being skinny; plenty of dedicated folks are able to slim down from being chunky....I cannot think of a similar natural case of building that much muscle while losing that much fat.

Always curious he was never "talked" about regarding the completely yo-yo. Either he is a genetic anomaly or.....

When did the PGA begin to enforce a PED policy?




[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1324399299' post='3965547']
[quote name='Fatz' timestamp='1324398592' post='3965491']
While the ball will need to be regulated and I've said so many times that MLB has an official ball, NCAA Football has theirs, NFL another, etc etc, it is time for golf to not necessarily pick a brand, but enforce a limit.

But what's next, ban the pros from hitting the gym?

I think a lot of the distance gains we see are the evolution of Masters winners going from Craig Stadlers towards Tigers and Shwartzels. No pun intended, but even Daly isn't fit enough to get a tour card anymore. Don't get me started on how [b]Duval lost his game (and gained about 5 pant sizes)[/b]
[/quote]

And just how did Duval lose his game, by getting fat? Pretty sure there is more to it than that.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Considering Duval has a ton of money, resources and time to workout, I don't find his transformation that shocking at all.

I've lost 29.0 (210 to 181) pounds over the last 6 months and I'm also stronger than I was 6 months ago. It's all about diet and lifting - I don't do cardio and I eat cookies, I just control my total caloric intake every day by scanning the bar code of items I eat (myFitnessPal on iPhone) and I'm specific with the amount I eat of each thing I scan (it's a piece of cake).

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I really don't see any problem with bifurcation of ball standards - "one rule for them and one for us"
[list][*]One standard for top-level tournament play (PGA/ Nationwide Tours, top-level USGA titles etc.) that we would never see and never be even able to buy. Be it softer, lighter, "spinnier", whatever. They could stamp them ProV1x in the same way we see Chevy Impalas at Talladega if that makes a difference.[*]One standard for "the rest of us", which is the standard we all use now[/list]My thoughts run as follows:
[list][*]There are plenty of precedents for a bifurcation (or more) of equipment standards for elite competitions[list][*]NASCAR doesn't use production cars. Maybe 20-30 years ago, but not in my memory[*]Pro baseball can only use wooden bats, college and below (i.e., the rest of us) can use metal bats[*]The NFL uses different balls (I forget the specifics, but it's not insubstantial), goalposts (narrower) etc than college play[/list][*]Even in our game, most of the pros use different equipment than we do, even if it's stamped the same[*]Courses ARE getting too long, and it's hitting all of us in the back pocket . The latest course opened near my place features any number of 480 - 500 yd par-4s and a 640yd par 5 - this is no resort course, just a run-of-the-mill paid-for-by-real estate effort. So, 15% longer, 15% + wider - how much extra real estate does that need, not to mention extra maintenance? And don't think that extra $$$ isn't passed on by way of greens fees and what have you[/list]And while we're at it, limit the clubhead size back to mid-90s sizes. Take titanium, absurdium and whatever other unobtanium out of the equation because it would be too light, and halve equipment prices in one stroke. If anything keeps people out of the game it's overpriced equipment!

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Too long for who? You?...That's a YOU (and Cory Pavin) problem. Typical pre-diversity approach..."if you can't beat 'em, change the rules".
[quote name='IdahoAussie' timestamp='1324415868' post='3967375']
I really don't see any problem with bifurcation of ball standards - "one rule for them and one for us"
[list][*]One standard for top-level tournament play (PGA/ Nationwide Tours, top-level USGA titles etc.) that we would never see and never be even able to buy. Be it softer, lighter, "spinnier", whatever. They could stamp them ProV1x in the same way we see Chevy Impalas at Talladega if that makes a difference.[*]One standard for "the rest of us", which is the standard we all use now[/list]My thoughts run as follows:
[list][*]There are plenty of precedents for a bifurcation (or more) of equipment standards for elite competitions[list][*]NASCAR doesn't use production cars. Maybe 20-30 years ago, but not in my memory[*]Pro baseball can only use wooden bats, college and below (i.e., the rest of us) can use metal bats[*]The NFL uses different balls (I forget the specifics, but it's not insubstantial), goalposts (narrower) etc than college play[/list][*]Even in our game, most of the pros use different equipment than we do, even if it's stamped the same[*]Courses ARE getting too long, and it's hitting all of us in the back pocket . The latest course opened near my place features any number of 480 - 500 yd par-4s and a 640yd par 5 - this is no resort course, just a run-of-the-mill paid-for-by-real estate effort. So, 15% longer, 15% + wider - how much extra real estate does that need, not to mention extra maintenance? And don't think that extra $$ isn't passed on by way of greens fees and what have you[/list]And while we're at it, limit the clubhead size back to mid-90s sizes. Take titanium, absurdium and whatever other unobtanium out of the equation because it would be too light, and halve equipment prices in one stroke. If anything keeps people out of the game it's overpriced equipment!
[/quote]

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No.

There isn't a distance problem.

This is to address the play of less than 1/10 of 1% of the golfing population.

I'm tired of condition of competition items as if they aren't rules. They are, no matter what you call the requirements.

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Absolutely no need to change the ball standards. Today's professional golfers spend way more time in the gym then most realize. They train as hard as other sports, baseball and football included. Add in dedicated trainers and nutritionists and you are currently seeing what athletes can do to a game that quite frankly has historical not had true athletes play the game. Golf is now cool to play from a young age, and kids are training specifically for golf. The professional athlete golfer of today is only in its infancy, give it another 10 years. The equipment is playing a part but it's not nearly having the effect of a dedicated well trained athlete who is training specifically for peak performance.

People with the size and skill of a Dustin Johnson are going to be the norm not the exception. Just wait, it's coming !!!

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[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1324432812' post='3968603']
Absolutely no need to change the ball standards. Today's professional golfers spend way more time in the gym then most realize. They train as hard as other sports, baseball and football included. Add in dedicated trainers and nutritionists and you are currently seeing what athletes can do to a game that quite frankly has historical not had true athletes play the game. Golf is now cool to play from a young age, and kids are training specifically for golf. The professional athlete golfer of today is only in its infancy, give it another 10 years. The equipment is playing a part but it's not nearly having the effect of a dedicated well trained athlete who is training specifically for peak performance.

[b]People with the size and skill of a Dustin Johnson are going to be the norm not the exception.[/b] Just wait, it's coming !!!
[/quote]

Well hopefully they'll be better with their wedges and course management. Not that I dislike DJ.

run of the mill driver with stock shaft
a couple of outdated hybrids
shovel-ier shovels
wedges from same shovel company
some putter with a dead insert and
a hideous grip

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[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1324432812' post='3968603']
Absolutely no need to change the ball standards. Today's professional golfers spend way more time in the gym then most realize. They train as hard as other sports, baseball and football included. Add in dedicated trainers and nutritionists and you are currently seeing what athletes can do to a game that quite frankly has historical not had true athletes play the game. Golf is now cool to play from a young age, and kids are training specifically for golf. The professional athlete golfer of today is only in its infancy, give it another 10 years. The equipment is playing a part but it's not nearly having the effect of a dedicated well trained athlete who is training specifically for peak performance.

People with the size and skill of a Dustin Johnson are going to be the norm not the exception. Just wait, it's coming !!!
[/quote]

you make an interesting point that hasn't been brought up much yet, and that's the level of athleticism we see now. And that to me is even more of a reason to not change the game right now. How many young players have talked about how they were influenced by Tiger. Lots...Golf IS cooler then it used to be, and while the statistics of number of people playing might not reveal it yet, sports don't get transformed in 5 or even 10 years. the NBA and NFL didn't go from barnstorming leagues to the most popular sports in america overnight (the NBA in the 90s, NFL since then). Due to the increased availability to play (public courses) , the ability to make your own schedule (as oppose to team sports) and safety of the sport, golf could end up being one of the most popular sports in the US within 25 years, especially once concussion studies become more publicized in football and hockey. Why are we in such a rush to change it? People love hitting it far....look at the participation in long drive events. Making the game less fun will hurt it in the long run.

Just use more courses that are shorter and more strategic. You neutralize the long hitters while still keeping the game the same for everyone else. What's hilarious is if you start a thread called "how important is distance" everyone will say it's over-rated. But when it comes to the pro game so many people are quick to say the only way to challenge pros is to make courses 7500yds.

pebble beach, Spyglass, harbour town....course can challenge without being overly long and that protects the game's present and future.

Srixon ZX5 w/PX Hzrdus Red 60

Srixon ZX 15 w/PX Hzrdus Red 70

Tour Edge C723 21* w/PX hzrdus black 80

Titleist T150 4-AW w/PX LZ 6.0

Titleist Jet Black 54/60 with PX LZ 6.0

Deschamps Crisp Antique 

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This ball rating system is the most stupid thing I have heard on this distance debate so far. I have 5 points and I am done.

1- Distance has not increased for 7-8 years, and have actually come back slightly over the last 3.
2- The players are stronger, bigger, and have better mechanics then players only a decade ago.
3- Ball speeds are already governed and regulated by the USGA.
4- The groove rule has not changed anything as far as scoring and scrambling stats are concerned.
5- No matter what, the longest and strongest players will remain just that.

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What exactly are the physical factors that result in a golf balls going further with each iteration? Do golf balls have higher CORs? Is it that manufacturers have been able to make them react with increasingly lower spin from the driver but maintain high spin on shorter clubs?

I guess my question is, is the golf ball really getting hotter, or is it that 1.) guys just able to dial in launch conditions better as equipment in general improves, and 2.) the pros are becoming better athletes using increasingly improving techniques?

I think another big factor that gets overlooked in the whole distance issue is the loft of wedges. In my opinion, loft should be limited to 56 or 57 degrees. If that happened, pros would be forced to think very hard about what kind of risks they are willing to take in their shot selections, and bomb and gouge would be a much less viable strategy. IIRC, the lob wedge was only adopted on tour in the 80s, with Tom Kite the first player to use it, so it is a relatively recent phenomenon. It gave the players a "get out of jail free card" of sorts, and I believe the governing bodies blew it with that one.

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The increased skill and athleticism of players is something to be applauded, not regretted. No-one can control this (at least unless that effort has some pharmaceutical assistance), but equipment standards can be controlled. This line of argument is a red herring as far as I am concerned

The retail end (that's us, guys) is affected by what happens at the elite end. Always has been, always will be. We will always have the element with more testosterone than common sense who want to emulate the "big boys", and providers who (with similar testosterone issues) are happy to pander to them. Anyone relish the prospect of paying the greens fees on an 8000 yard par-70 real-estate development course (which is now 2 hours' drive away because there isn't enough spare land any closer) because the owner wants to "keep up with the big boys" who have just seen their first 9000 yarder go into play?

There are many sports that have seen equipment changes in response to the increased performance levels at the elite end. In track-and-field, they had to change the specs on the javelin because spectators at the other end of the stadium were in danger of becoming part of the action - distances reduced, but the better competitors still won because, well, they were better.

I am actually starting to lose interest in the tour, because I have less and less in common with someone who is pinging it 350 and hitting a PW where I would be hitting 4 or 5. As I see it, we're in a vicious circle of increasing distance which no-one wants to stop

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Again what bothers me...is that it was OK, smart, awesome, innovative when Tom Kite used a lob wedge- now it's an abomination? That again strikes me as subjective...it's comes down to the "who" not the "what". My point is that even if we froze equipment in 1997, this anti-Darwinism would still exist.

Ernie Els was bigger than most and drank beer, John Daly could hit it a mile, and became a slob, Greg Norman had the physical tools but swallowed apples on Sunday. Short knockers like Pavin and Price could still compete. The only one famous for fitness was 5'5" 140lbs. Gary Player.

Today half the tour can look Ernie eye to eye, and has been stretching and lifting weights since 12 years old. Look what Tiger did with an x100 shaft in a 9 degree steel driver, with a wound ball....and yet they immediately went about "Tiger proofing" everything. If no equipment changed, Vegas, Bubba, Dustin, Gary etc. would still crank it too far for Nick Price to compete with (unless he cut back to a pack of cigs a day, and went to the gym).


[quote name='eroc' timestamp='1324460715' post='3970031']
What exactly are the physical factors that result in a golf balls going further with each iteration? Do golf balls have higher CORs? Is it that manufacturers have been able to make them react with increasingly lower spin from the driver but maintain high spin on shorter clubs?

I guess my question is, is the golf ball really getting hotter, or is it that 1.) guys just able to dial in launch conditions better as equipment in general improves, and 2.) the pros are becoming better athletes using increasingly improving techniques?

I think another big factor that gets overlooked in the whole distance issue is the loft of wedges. In my opinion, loft should be limited to 56 or 57 degrees. If that happened, pros would be forced to think very hard about what kind of risks they are willing to take in their shot selections, and bomb and gouge would be a much less viable strategy. IIRC, the lob wedge was only adopted on tour in the 80s, with Tom Kite the first player to use it, so it is a relatively recent phenomenon. It gave the players a "get out of jail free card" of sorts, and I believe the governing bodies blew it with that one.
[/quote]

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Low "T" ? - Consult your Doctor.

I / We the consumer love it!! I can't dunk anymore, (I'm mid 40's and 5'8"), and find I have less and less in common with NBA players like 6'8" athletic LeBron or 7' outside shooter Dirk. But you don't see me pushing for a 15' rim for them.

As to the "it's too expensive" argument- it is a BS red herring; as previously stated: perfect green grass, lack of weeds, pristine sand, ultra smooth putting turf, fertilzer, sub-air systems, mowing everyday are all changes over the last generation that have increased the cost of a typical round FAR MORE than adding 30 or 40 yards per hole. ( Probably also changed the nature of the competition.)
[quote name='IdahoAussie' timestamp='1324480597' post='3970661']
The increased skill and athleticism of players is something to be applauded, not regretted. No-one can control this (at least unless that effort has some pharmaceutical assistance), but equipment standards can be controlled. This line of argument is a red herring as far as I am concerned

The retail end (that's us, guys) is affected by what happens at the elite end. Always has been, always will be. We will always have the element with more testosterone than common sense who want to emulate the "big boys", and providers who (with similar testosterone issues) are happy to pander to them. Anyone relish the prospect of paying the greens fees on an 8000 yard par-70 real-estate development course (which is now 2 hours' drive away because there isn't enough spare land any closer) because the owner wants to "keep up with the big boys" who have just seen their first 9000 yarder go into play?

There are many sports that have seen equipment changes in response to the increased performance levels at the elite end. In track-and-field, they had to change the specs on the javelin because spectators at the other end of the stadium were in danger of becoming part of the action - distances reduced, but the better competitors still won because, well, they were better.

I am actually starting to lose interest in the tour, because I have less and less in common with someone who is pinging it 350 and hitting a PW where I would be hitting 4 or 5. As I see it, we're in a vicious circle of increasing distance which no-one wants to stop
[/quote]

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I will give you that course maintenance has improved out of sight, which has also increased costs. If you have courses growing bigger every year to "keep up", however, are we not just compounding that issue? Bigger courses are more expensive to build and maintain, no matter how well we choose to maintain them, and we're running out of land to build 'em - unless you want to travel hours out of town to your "local". How well we maintain courses these days is just another reason to keep them shorter, not a justification to let the madness continue.

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