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Moe Norman > Ben Hogan


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[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1342666744' post='5305308']
IMO, You are totally off base on the face rate closure thing.

Moe and hogan both controlled face rate closing VERY well, both had a huge range at the bottom of the arc where the club face was closing slowly when the wanted to hit those laser straight shots.

go find the slo mo video of Moe's left arm movements through impact.. Its on on YouTube.
[/quote]

Can you post a link? Moe's clubface went from open to close very quickly. He stands very far from the ball, and stays in forward flexion. Hogan didn't. Look at the comparative vids put up by BHSP above. (BHSP, thanks.) But that is an old Moe though. Maybe someone can show a comparative video of the young/in prime Moe and Hogan. BHSP?

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[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342659681' post='5304198']
GOLF SWING, the minute details of their swings. I apologized about the title already and I edited my initial post, but Moe hit it straighter than Hogan. I have no evidence to prove it. Only what the greats of the game have said about Moe. No one has evidence to disprove it either. We keep coming back to careers. As far as my attitude, I'm very open-minded, but when we try to take Moe down a peg with his personality and that he never won on the PGA tour. That's discriminating Moe and discrediting all his achievements.

(I'll bring it back.)

Young Moe vs Hogan

Their anchored Right foot. Moe later on kept it planted - I hypothesis that's what enabled him to be straighter. Enjoy the greats' footwork!

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiBX1LnOWCI[/media]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0H7PJ0ZGys[/media]
[/quote]

That is a pretty good swing of Moe in there. A lot changed from that to his later/older swings. Do you have a DTL of that same age/era of Moe?

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[quote name='k001k47' timestamp='1342667577' post='5305410']
[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342662450' post='5304568']
Please do talk about swing mechanics. I really would greatly appreciate it. That is where I want a discussion. I know being in a Hogan forum, it would be silly of me for people here not to be bias towards Hogan's swing, however, humor me a little and tell me what exactly makes Hogan's swing superior to Moe's. If you haven't watched that last youtube vid yet please do. Moe makes a comment about Hogan's swing taking more effort. Comments?
[/quote]

I would, but I'd make a fool of myself. I'll leave the position stuff to more learned folks. As far as what Moe says... well, I take a lot of things he says with a grain of salt. Case and point: [url="http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/myshot_gd0411?currentPage=1"]http://www.golfdiges...1?currentPage=1[/url] He wasn't 'right in the head'; if he was, he probably would have made a better career on the PGA tour...then again, he probably wouldn't have been as great a golfer if he was normal. However, Moe is completely right about Hogan's swing taking more effort. One of Hogan's philosophies about his swing was that the more pressure he put on it, the better it was. He also goes on to reveal in 5L that one of his swing thoughts is to go at it with everything he's got. I don't know what Moe is going on about in that video. Maybe he just didn't understand how Hogan was such a great ball striker with such an aggressive swing.
[/quote]

Excellent point. Could or would rather, Ben have been more accurate had he not lash a more powerful fade/draw instead of babying a straight drive/approach? Very Likely, since Ben was under the pressure of winning majors and tournaments while challenging the likes of Snead and Nelson. The man played the percentages better than most due to the fact many considered him a tactician. The pressure would seem to tighten the muscles more and not allow such a controlled release. I agree that Hogan had an aggressive swing. Much more so than Moe, however, for the average golfer who has more shot curvature than a satellite, wouldn't Moe seem like a better swing model at least to start with. I'm not taking about his address position either. I'm talking actual "move" through the golf ball. Even Hogan's weak grip/cupped wrist causes most players to slice the heck of it.

Food for thought.

Secret is in the dirt

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[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1342669307' post='5305604']
[/quote]

Thank you BHSP! These guys planed the shaft very well! That red line is practically split by both of these artists.

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342669844' post='5305666']
That is a pretty good swing of Moe in there. A lot changed from that to his later/older swings. Do you have a DTL of that same age/era of Moe?
[/quote]

Unfortunately, there is not. His angles are maintained rather well, yes? It has more of a conventional look, whereas his later swing contained what I believe to be his own idiosyncrasies.

Secret is in the dirt

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[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342669358' post='5305614']
Can you post a link? Moe's clubface went from open to close very quickly. He stands very far from the ball, and stays in forward flexion. Hogan didn't. Look at the comparative vids put up by BHSP above. (BHSP, thanks.) But that is an old Moe though. Maybe someone can show a comparative video of the young/in prime Moe and Hogan. BHSP?
[/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpqB9wr5i1s

Moe had used a palm-type right hand grip. Try it out. It feels to me like it's pretty hard to close the clubface without letting the left arm break down. That video above is blazing fast, but you can sort of tell that the clubface is not only square to the ball, but square to the arc of the swing.

Secret is in the dirt

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Here is a good view/analysis of Moe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzc2QLmd_MY

With that extended arms and far away ball, Moe's swing plane is as inclined as it can possibly be. That makes his baseline (the bottom of the plane that meets the target line) as short as possible. Plus, his grip makes his rate of face closure the fastest that it could possibly be. So, you have to have a pretty darn super-fast brain to time that squareness of the face at impact. Just imagine how Moe could change ball flights with that. It's his brain...lightning fast...

For us mere mortals...using his method would be suicide...yeah, he is an excellent ball striker though...too bad he dislikes putting and the media/social fuss in an era where his eccentricity is less understood...

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[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342670855' post='5305754']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342669358' post='5305614']
Can you post a link? Moe's clubface went from open to close very quickly. He stands very far from the ball, and stays in forward flexion. Hogan didn't. Look at the comparative vids put up by BHSP above. (BHSP, thanks.) But that is an old Moe though. Maybe someone can show a comparative video of the young/in prime Moe and Hogan. BHSP?
[/quote]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpqB9wr5i1s[/media]

Moe had used a palm-type right hand grip. Try it out. It feels to me like it's pretty hard to close the clubface without letting the left arm break down. That video above is blazing fast, but you can sort of tell that the clubface is not only square to the ball, but square to the arc of the swing.
[/quote]

Of course, his clubface is squarer relative to the ARC of the clubhead. It is because of that far away from the ball and super-extended arms at setup and inline clubshaft with his L arm. But, that also makes his plane line very much more inclined (flatter). Hence, the arc or baseline curves quicker/earlier relative to the ball. Hogan's clubhead arc/baseline curves much later. This is why I've been saying, Moe has computer fast brain processing. He has to time that very short baseline exactly in time for the ball when the face is square.

In short, his setup and grip sets him up for a very fast closure rate of the clubface/sweetspot and a very short baseline or too curving baseline/arc. Why would you want that?

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[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1342672221' post='5305866']
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_75GT_7e30[/media]

Watch Moe in slow mo. One of the slowest rates of club face closure through the impact zone... Watch his left arm carefully just through impact
[/quote]

Well, first, that is a wedge/short iron. With so his plane is much more vertical in that. So the baseline is longer. However, his face closure is pretty fast. It's built in in him. So, secondly, I'd say he's holding it off in there with his hands. He's keeping the face square with his hands intentionally during the strike. That causes the flip. Hogan didn't flip, you know that. And take note, Moe has a 3-knuckler grip.

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The face closure is EXTREMELY slow with moe. His left elbow moves through along his path for a fraction of a second past impact on ALL his shots. Put the club in the palm of your right hand with a strong grip with 10 fingers, and do his elbow thing moving across the body for an instant longer and you'll do that knee dip thing post impact too and that clubface will be slowed like crazy through impact with that left elbow move. Gotta stop the nonsense and go try it. You'll see.

Hogan did it totally different, of course.

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[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1342673691' post='5306004']
The face closure is EXTREMELY slow with moe. His left elbow moves through along his path for a fraction of a second past impact on ALL his shots. Put the club in the palm of your right hand with a strong grip with 10 fingers, and do his elbow thing moving across the body for an instant longer and you'll do that knee dip thing post impact too and that clubface will be slowed like crazy through impact with that left elbow move. Gotta stop the nonsense and go try it. You'll see.

Hogan did it totally different, of course.
[/quote]

He is HOLDING IT OFF with his hands. That is not nonsense. With his shoulder plane, arm plane and grip, he has built in a fast closing clubface (Edit: ...relative to the ball) that is conducive to a hold off release at impact zone (Edit:...face kept square to the arc). Edit:...but still, his arc and baseline curves quicker than anybody in the game. The only way to make it longer is to become army and hadsy. Now, good luck with his method.

I am at a loss why you even brought out that L elbow thingy. That is used not for tweaking face closure. Go figure and ask him.

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Face rate closure rate will decline the stronger your grip is, because it is equivalent to the axial rotation of the club shaft, which will generally decline if your starting position has a stronger right hand grip.

Moe does not have to hold anything off, he returns it to his start position, and he does not flip. But extends further down the line with his left elbow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7RTJ7ALmzs

It's obvious you don't understand Moe's elbow move. Try it before you post more non sensical BS

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[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1342675708' post='5306118']
Face rate closure rate will decline the stronger your grip is, because it is equivalent to the axial rotation of the club shaft, which will generally decline if your starting position has a stronger right hand grip.

Moe does not have to hold anything off, he returns it to his start position, and he does not flip. But extends further down the line with his left elbow.

It's obvious you don't understand Moe's elbow move. Try it before you post more non sensical BS
[/quote]

You are so biggie in your head on that L elbow move, huh? That is not for tweaking face closure....lol...go ask him again if he'll answer....lol...all along I thought you understand...lol

So why does Moe has to fix the L elbow, to allow the face to go on closing?! So that is not a hold-off move?..ROFL

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By the way, his L wrist flips after impact...that's what happens if you hold-off during impact...and no, he held it off with his L wrist...not the other one...

Why can't you understand the simple dynamics of shoulder turn plane, hands plane, and the relationship between that grip of Moe and face closure? Tsk tsk tsk...only a few dudes has figured it out...and our teacher knows, he's just not telling 'ya...lol

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[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1342665674' post='5305132']
[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342663182' post='5304712']
[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1342662879' post='5304650']
Really? now you are in to the "HA! I KNEW IT" thing because I didn't respond to your video of that creepy little man hitting balls? I didn't comment because i didn't watch it, I didn't watch it, because I don't care. This shouldn't be this hard to comprehend.

We get it, you like Moe. Congrats
[/quote]

Ignorance is bliss. Don't watch it. You might not like what you hear, the sound of a golfball being compressed properly.
[/quote]

Youre just a troll with an agenda.
[/quote]
:)

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[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342676990' post='5306206']
"Face rate closure will decline the stronger you grip is...."..... :stink: ...that's because a stronger grip makes the pronation built-in for you...its what results in the BS/top that makes you feel what you're feeling...go figure that out on your own...lol
[/quote]

Exactly right. Not rocket science. So the face moves through a more narrow range of motion and does not close as fast. What I said.

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[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1342677328' post='5306228']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342676990' post='5306206']
"Face rate closure will decline the stronger you grip is...."..... :stink: ...that's because a stronger grip makes the pronation built-in for you...its what results in the BS/top that makes you feel what you're feeling...go figure that out on your own...lol
[/quote]

Exactly right. Not rocket science. So the face moves through a more narrow range of motion and does not close as fast. What I said.
[/quote]

That's because the clubhead is more put behind you during the BS...its more pronated...like the effect of lag...but Hogan had clearly a weak grip and didn't accomplish the lag with just a strong grip...that's why Moe had a stronger grip, he couldn't achieve lag with his #3 and grip...but no, you wouldn't understand that...rofl

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Ok, no need for insults.

So hoganfan101 believes Hogan had a slower rate of clubface closure compared to Moe. drewspin, I see and agree with you on Moe's elbow/strong-palm grip allowing him to stay squarer down the line OF the arc of the swing throughout the hitting zone. I believe Hogan's lag lies the effect of his infamous fade. You said it yourself hoganfan101 that Hogan would have a more down the line from the ball follow-through being that Hogan wasn't stretched out like Moe. If Hogan had a much longer time down the line from the ball and you combine that with a weak grip allowing for his lag, then that means Hogan had to release it ala '3 right hands.' From wide open to square would be a recipe for a fade. Moe had it square from the start because he was already in his impact position. Less moving parts and no need to actively release to square it - dead straight. Moe had it braced(my avatar), Hogan had a release(postcard finish).

Continue . :read:

Secret is in the dirt

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[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1342678537' post='5306284']
Ok, no need for insults.

So hoganfan101 believes Hogan had a slower rate of clubface closure compared to Moe. drewspin, I see and agree with you on Moe's elbow/strong-palm grip allowing him to stay squarer to the arc of the swing throughout the hitting zone. I believe Hogan's lag lies the effect of his infamous fade. You said it yourself hoganfan101 that Hogan would have a more down the line follow-through being that Hogan wasn't stretched like Moe. If Hogan had a much longer time down the line combined with a weak grip allowing for his lag, then that means Hogan had to release it ala 3-right hands. From wide open to square would be a recipe for a fade. Moe had it square from the start because he was already in his impact position. Less moving parts and no need to react to square it. Moe had it braced(my avatar), Hogan had a release(postcard finish).

Continue . :read:
[/quote]

Nice arguments. But which one do you think will have more power/distance? You cannot correct a fault with another fault (get more accuracy by sacrificing distance).

IMO, Hogan's clubface will remain square to his elongated baseline no matter what he does about his power, i.e., whether he fired or don't fire with his 3 R hands, whether he rotated the pivot slowly, bit more or to his max. He found a way for a very slow rate of face closure even if he delayed the release of the clubhead with his lag until he came down to elbow plane. With this, he achieved distance control with no worries about accuracy. It became VERY DIFFICULT for him to close the face at impact zone even though he squared it earlier than most. Hence he can slow down the pivot for lesser distance shots, and max out his pivot for max distance, all without affecting the squareness of the face.

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Hogan had WAY, WAy more lag, way more power than moe (at least the later years version of moe). I believe Hogan had a totally different way to control the face closure and turn his draw into to the powerful straight shot that flew higher and fell right.

There's a bunch of good reasons other than looks not to emulate Moe's swing pattern.

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[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1342678501' post='5306282']
If you start with a stronger grip in the right hand, club face square, the right hand is more SUPINATED to start, and the left hand and forearm will pronate LESS at the top of the BS. You're a smart guy, think it all the way through.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree. That's a hold off mechanism. Moe is holding off. Thank you.

He had to do those things because his face closure is so freakin fast, actually it is the fastest available face closure in the whole wide world...lol...

But how about the loss of clubhead travel with his 3? How would you recover that in terms of power, with Moe's aging and out of shape body? Hogan was never affected by his bum L shoulder, L knee, L eye, or whatever part of his body he got from his accident, plus his old age never affected his ball striking as well. He just can't putt anymore and too painful to walk 18 holes.

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