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It's official: USGA, R&A propose anchor ban


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[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354122341' post='5990027']
All totally understandable positions and yes, the foot wedge thing was poorly thought out and irrelevant to the conversation. I was just trying to illustrate it in absurdity. I think we agree that the bottom line issue in all of this is what they tried to clarify. What constitutes a golf stroke? Clearly the lines are divided fairly evenly right now as far as the rule goes. But i believe in time that many who don't use an anchored putter but are sort of casually against the ban will look back on this and agree that it is in fact reasonable and fundamental to define a stroke as one made freely with just the [b]hand/club connection[/b].
[/quote]

LOL, that's the tamest thing you've posted all morning. I must not be giving you much to sink your teeth into. :taunt:

PS - don't forget the forearm.

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This is going to be so much fun for armchair rules officials in front of their HD TV sets, who like to call in and point out rules infractions.

A player who is built like Mark Calcvecchia or Kevin Stadler uses a longer putter with part of the grip sticking out.
Did the butt of the club touch his belly or not? Or maybe just his shirt?

A player who uses a long putter Adam Scott style:
Did his left hand touch his sternum or did it not? Was his left forearm pressed against his chest so that it was "anchored" or was it not?

A player who hits a shot from a weird lie with the ball way above his feet and from under branches, gripping down on the shaft, grip sticking out:
Did the butt of the club touch his belt buckle or did it not?

A player chipping from the fringe with a hybrid or fairway wood:
Did the grip touch his butt or did it not?

Starting 2016, we might have to wait until Tuesday evening, before all the video evidence has been reviewed and before we know who has actually won a tournament.

As I said, lots and lots of fun.

Disclosure: I tried belly putters and long putters and putted like crap with them, especially with belly putters stuck into my gut. I also think it looks ridiculous, when a young player uses them.
But the proposed new rule and the dozens of cans of worms it opens is even more ridiculous.

I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

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Q. For a long putter that I use to anchor to my upper chest........ [b]If I anchor my upper hand to my loose shirt that I pull down tight around my neck, is that ok? This is then anchored to my shirt, NOT my body![/b]

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CALLAWAY APEX 21 TOUR CB, 4 - GW, PX IO 6.5

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[quote name='Crab Daddy' timestamp='1354123148' post='5990089']
[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354122341' post='5990027']
All totally understandable positions and yes, the foot wedge thing was poorly thought out and irrelevant to the conversation. I was just trying to illustrate it in absurdity. I think we agree that the bottom line issue in all of this is what they tried to clarify. What constitutes a golf stroke? Clearly the lines are divided fairly evenly right now as far as the rule goes. But i believe in time that many who don't use an anchored putter but are sort of casually against the ban will look back on this and agree that it is in fact reasonable and fundamental to define a stroke as one made freely with just the [b]hand/club connection[/b].
[/quote]

LOL, that's the tamest thing you've posted all morning. I must not be giving you much to sink your teeth into. :taunt:

PS - don't forget the forearm.
PSS - what about the bicep? can I hold it along my arm up to the bicep? Armpit? I didn't see any armpits involved in the good/bad picture.
[/quote]

Except in every one of those examples, the whole of the putter still moves freely. I had considered how the Kuchar style might remain legal and they are basically saying it is merely another alternative grip I.E. the claw. Based on the merits they have given the rule and how they determined to make it, I think that makes sense as well. [quote name='avrag' timestamp='1354123160' post='5990091']
This is going to be so much fun for armchair rules officials in front of their HD TV sets, who like to call in and point out rules infractions.

A player who is built like Mark Calcvecchia or Kevin Stadler uses a longer putter with part of the grip sticking out.
Did the butt of the club touch his belly or not? Or maybe just his shirt?

A player who uses a long putter Adam Scott style:
Did his left hand touch his sternum or did it not? Was his left forearm pressed against his chest so that it was "anchored" or was it not?

A player who hits a shot from a weird lie with the ball way above his feet and from under branches, gripping down on the shaft, grip sticking out:
Did the butt of the club touch his belt buckle or did it not?

A player chipping from the fringe with a hybrid or fairway wood:
Did the grip touch his butt or did it not?

Starting 2016, we might have to wait until Tuesday evening, before all the video evidence has been reviewed and before we know who has actually won a tournament.

As I said, lots and lots of fun.

Disclosure: I tried belly putters and long putters and putted like crap with them, especially with belly putters stuck into my gut. I also think it looks ridiculous, when a young player uses them.
But the proposed new rule and the dozens of cans of worms it opens is even more ridiculous.
[/quote]

Read the rule. All of this incidental type contact is covered, and not subject to penalty

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[quote name='Openwater22' timestamp='1354122970' post='5990079']
[quote name='GIR LOL' timestamp='1354119071' post='5989655']
If I hear one more recreational golfer saying they are "quitting the game because I can't play a normal putter due to back problems" I'm going to lose it. No one at your local course or country club is going to stop you from using your "illegal" putter. Chill out.
[/quote]

You're missing the point. Most players insist on playing by the rules, all the rules, regardless of whether they are playing a US Open qualifier or a Saturday morning skins game at the local muni.
[/quote]

Those players need to get over themselves. I have 2 herniated discs and a fractured vertebrae in my back. If it comes to playing with an illegal putter or not playing golf at all, then the golf police can come arrest me for all I care.

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[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1354123160' post='5990091']
This is going to be so much fun for armchair rules officials in front of their HD TV sets, who like to call in and point out rules infractions.

A player who is built like Mark Calcvecchia or Kevin Stadler uses a longer putter with part of the grip sticking out.
Did the butt of the club touch his belly or not? Or maybe just his shirt?

A player who uses a long putter Adam Scott style:
Did his left hand touch his sternum or did it not? Was his left forearm pressed against his chest so that it was "anchored" or was it not?

A player who hits a shot from a weird lie with the ball way above his feet and from under branches, gripping down on the shaft, grip sticking out:
Did the butt of the club touch his belt buckle or did it not?

A player chipping from the fringe with a hybrid or fairway wood:
Did the grip touch his butt or did it not?

Starting 2016, we might have to wait until Tuesday evening, before all the video evidence has been reviewed and before we know who has actually won a tournament.

As I said, lots and lots of fun.

Disclosure: I tried belly putters and long putters and putted like crap with them, especially with belly putters stuck into my gut. I also think it looks ridiculous, when a young player uses them.
But the proposed new rule and the dozens of cans of worms it opens is even more ridiculous.
[/quote]

I don't care one way or another about enforcement on the Tour. They have the resources at their disposal to deal with it. What I'm dismayed by is member-guest tournaments, money games at the club, match play tournaments, etc. That's going to be fun to enforce. I can't wait until the first $20 Nassau ends up creating a huge argument about whether one's opponent "created an anchor point with his forearm." Tons of fun.

The worst kind of legislation attempts to solve a problem that is not there and instead creates new problems. That is precisely what this proposal does.

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[quote name='Rockminer' timestamp='1354116477' post='5989395']IMO there is no other way to take it other than he want's credit for it. Every thread that has to do with this subject has been locked by [b]ZAK[/b]. ( many started a long time ago). I agree that one thread would be good, but there we're plenty of good conversations going on, that we're blown up, so that Zak could have the only ulocked thread on the subject.[/quote]

[b]Zak is just doing his job, guys. [/b]

[b]We've had a general policy here to lock or merge threads on the same topic, resulting in one group "conversation" on significant subjects. This is something that had been suggested/requested by many members in the past -- members who don't want to "miss anything" but don't have the time to jump around 3 or 4 different threads to keep up with the discussion.[/b]

[b]Thanks. :)[/b]

[i][color=#0000cd][b][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Treating others the way you want to be treated is the key component to preservation of our goals.[/font][/b][/color][/i]

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[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1354123503' post='5990117']

[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1354123160' post='5990091']
This is going to be so much fun for armchair rules officials in front of their HD TV sets, who like to call in and point out rules infractions.

A player who is built like Mark Calcvecchia or Kevin Stadler uses a longer putter with part of the grip sticking out.
Did the butt of the club touch his belly or not? Or maybe just his shirt?

A player who uses a long putter Adam Scott style:
Did his left hand touch his sternum or did it not? Was his left forearm pressed against his chest so that it was "anchored" or was it not?

A player who hits a shot from a weird lie with the ball way above his feet and from under branches, gripping down on the shaft, grip sticking out:
Did the butt of the club touch his belt buckle or did it not?

A player chipping from the fringe with a hybrid or fairway wood:
Did the grip touch his butt or did it not?

Starting 2016, we might have to wait until Tuesday evening, before all the video evidence has been reviewed and before we know who has actually won a tournament.

As I said, lots and lots of fun.

Disclosure: I tried belly putters and long putters and putted like crap with them, especially with belly putters stuck into my gut. I also think it looks ridiculous, when a young player uses them.
But the proposed new rule and the dozens of cans of worms it opens is even more ridiculous.
[/quote]

Read the rule. All of this incidental type contact is covered, and not subject to penalty
[/quote]

I did. The rule says "intentional".

The problem in all of those cases will be to determine
a) what happened
b) was it intentional or not.

But this was to be expected, when the rule was to be worded in a way which defines a legal stroke versus an illegal stroke.

I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

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What took them so long. This ban should be put in effect jan1 of 2013!! As a tournament playing senior ,who putts conventionally ,and has placed second several times in national and state level championships behind players using anchored putters, this can't be put into effect too soon. A seniors competitive carrier is short. Waiting until 2016 makes this rule change ineffective and almost inconsequential. Players with anchored putters will continue to dominate senior championships. By the time this ban goes into effect the current crop of seniors will be past their competive (sr) prime.

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[quote name='SheriffBooth' timestamp='1354121848' post='5989973']
When did broomsticks start showing up on the Senior Tour? The early 80's?

Good to know that it only takes the USGA watchdog 30 years to recognize a threat to the "essence" of the golf swing.
[/quote]

But up until just recently the broomsticks on the senior tour were not anchored. They were long putters that were held up at the top and swept.

I tried one in the early 90s (5feet long) - worked fantastic for short putts (inside 6 feet) but I had tremendous difficulties getting long putts close - over 25-30 feet was extremely difficult for me. So I stopped using it and went back to a normal length putter. Still consider going back as my back has issues and I can't practice as much as I'd like or need.

But the extra length of the putter was great for drops. Two club lengths = 10 feet. Versus normal driver at 8 feet (max sized) most about 7.5 feet. That extra 2.5 feet can make a world of difference in the lie and placement.

It's not hard to pick up and understand how to use a very long putter. but getting the feel is much harder.

The real key on the ruling is that the long putter is not outlawed, just anchoring it, so the older broomsticks are still legal. All those old long putters sitting in the pro shop are still legal and good. It's just the anchoring against the body that will be illegal now. And to be honest, I can live with that. Other rules are issues that are much more important to me.

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[quote name='mshills' timestamp='1354123715' post='5990129']

The worst kind of legislation attempts to solve a problem that is not there and instead creates new problems. That is precisely what this proposal does.

[/quote]

Exactly. This is what I already expressed in a topic I started in the RoG forum months ago.
Having worked in my country's ministry of justice for years, trying to word statute laws according to the wishes of the politicians has taught me that.
And working as a judge for more than 16 years now, trying to make sense of these types of statute laws and trying to enforce them has taught me that even more.

I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

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[quote name='BirdieBob' timestamp='1354123383' post='5990111']
Q. For a long putter that I use to anchor to my upper chest........ [b]If I anchor my upper hand to my loose shirt that I pull down tight around my neck, is that ok? This is then anchored to my shirt, NOT my body![/b]
[/quote]


Also, what If I use an "anchor strap" that hangs around my neck and use the lower end of the strap to anchor my upper hand to?
I am not anchoring my upper hand to my body, but to the strap!

RULING NEEDED.

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TAYLORMADE P790 - 4, 5, 6, PX IO 6.5
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CALLAWAY APEX 21 MB, 5 - GW, PX LS 6.5

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[quote name='BirdieBob' timestamp='1354124180' post='5990171']
[quote name='BirdieBob' timestamp='1354123383' post='5990111']
Q. For a long putter that I use to anchor to my upper chest........ [b]If I anchor my upper hand to my loose shirt that I pull down tight around my neck, is that ok? This is then anchored to my shirt, NOT my body![/b]
[/quote]


Also, what If I use an "anchor strap" that hangs around my neck and use the lower end of the strap to anchor my upper hand to?
I am not anchoring my upper hand to my body, but to the strap!

RULING NEEDED.
[/quote]
No ruling needed. That's a swing aid.
AGAINST THE RULES.

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[quote name='BirdieBob' timestamp='1354124180' post='5990171']
[quote name='BirdieBob' timestamp='1354123383' post='5990111']
Q. For a long putter that I use to anchor to my upper chest........ [b]If I anchor my upper hand to my loose shirt that I pull down tight around my neck, is that ok? This is then anchored to my shirt, NOT my body![/b]
[/quote]


Also, what If I use an "anchor strap" that hangs around my neck and use the lower end of the strap to anchor my upper hand to?
I am not anchoring my upper hand to my body, but to the strap!

RULING NEEDED.
[/quote]

That's easy. That would be "unusual equipement". Already against the rules.

I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

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[quote name='Cyd' timestamp='1354117825' post='5989509']
Ban the Pro V1
Ban 460CC Drivers
Ban Oversized irons
Ban Heavy putters
Ban Two and Three ball putters
Reign in the distance balls fly.

The only reason this rule change is being proposed is because Eldrick is whining and crying. No other reason.
[/quote]

Phew. Finally some reasoned and rational thinking...
:russian_roulette:

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[quote name='myronm' timestamp='1354124162' post='5990165']
[quote name='SheriffBooth' timestamp='1354121848' post='5989973']
When did broomsticks start showing up on the Senior Tour? The early 80's?

Good to know that it only takes the USGA watchdog 30 years to recognize a threat to the "essence" of the golf swing.
[/quote]

But up until just recently the broomsticks on the senior tour were not anchored. They were long putters that were held up at the top and swept.

[/quote]

What does this even mean?

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[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1354124341' post='5990179']
[quote name='BirdieBob' timestamp='1354124180' post='5990171']
[quote name='BirdieBob' timestamp='1354123383' post='5990111']
Q. For a long putter that I use to anchor to my upper chest........ [b]If I anchor my upper hand to my loose shirt that I pull down tight around my neck, is that ok? This is then anchored to my shirt, NOT my body![/b]
[/quote]


Also, what If I use an "anchor strap" that hangs around my neck and use the lower end of the strap to anchor my upper hand to?
I am not anchoring my upper hand to my body, but to the strap!

RULING NEEDED.
[/quote]

That's easy. That would be "unusual equipement". Already against the rules.
[/quote]


OK, forget the strap............ I do wear a shirt, so is that ok?
Also, if NOT then if the end of the putter touches my shirt is that illegal?

RULING NEEDED!

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TAYLORMADE SIM2 RESCUE, 16*, Diamana Thump 105g X
TAYLORMADE SIM2 RESCUE, 21*, Diamana Thump 105g X
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:D i'm [b]happy[/b] because...[list]
[*]traffic on the website i own, [url="http://www.dictionary.com"]www.dictionary.com[/url], is way up in the last hour. seems due to the keyword search [i]"bifurcation" [/i]
[*]steve williams will make less money and nobody deserves less money than steve williams
[*]i always thought it was cheating and am glad it's gone. i tried it for 1 round and was disgusted with myself. my head said it was within the rules, but my gut wanted to puke. this is the right move
[*]i can't stand keegan bradley and webb simpson... and slightly off topic, but they both have male boobies which is a total juxtaposition on skinny dudes.
[/list]
:( i'm [b]sad [/b]because...[list]
[*]it's delayed to 2016. put it in now.
[*]my favorite golfer of all time, ernie els, will have a difficult time winning again. this hurts me (and the game of golf at large)
[*]adam scott will be mediocre. once again. what a shame considering he has the best swing in golf
[*]carl pettersson is a good dude, but he will suffer, and i don't like when good dudes have to suffer
[*]kevin stadler may actually hurt himself if he has to use a short putter
[/list]
:angry2: i'm [b]angry[/b] because...[list]
[*]i will have to listen to rich "bison-head" lerner, who is intolerable at the best of times, even when there is no controversy in the game
[*]in general, dumb people make me angry. many amateurs and hacks alike think they have to abide by the new rule. they don't realize they can play with belly putters, old grooves, and non-conforming drivers. whatever helps you enjoy the game man. get over it.
[*]i can't handle all the "bad back" stories and it's only been a few hours since the announcement. i'm the canadian version of fred couples, and add to that bad knees to boot..... but it would take a heck of lot more than aches and pains to keep me off the golf course. there's nothing else i'd rather be doing. doesn't anyone use alieve?
[/list]

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titleist 910h/18*/diamana 90x
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ping hoofer / titleist prov1x
cameron studio stainless laguna 2.5

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[quote name='golfin2' timestamp='1354120548' post='5989821']
Great move. HUGE amounts of juniors have been using the belly putters and anchoring. The entire game was going to change.

This will prevent that. Perfect timing by the USGA.

I really don't want to watch pro golf with a bunch of men with their putter stuffed into their belly.

This will separate the players again.
[/quote]
There are a few belly putters on Big Break. What will happen with that? Should these guys win a prize and a shot at a tour with a technique that others guys didn't use that will soon be banned?
Hmmm.

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[quote name='307golf' timestamp='1354123628' post='5990121']
Accidentally touching the club to your body is not part of this rule change. The word "intentional" was added intentionally...
[/quote]

This creates even more of a problem.
Most rules infractions you see today, which the players honestly police themselves, are incidental. I would even think that if the incidental contact were outlawed, it would be easier to enforce.
The "intentional" part is exactly what opens the can of worms in all of those scenarios aside from the putting stroke, in which it might be useful to have a club anchored to the body.

I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

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Personally, I think this is a good rule change. Anchored putting was as bad as putting croquet-style and should have been banned a long time ago, but better late than never.

Its gonna suck for some of my friends however...

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1984 Ben Hogan Apex PC 2-E   1968 Wilson Dual Wedge
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New stuff
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[quote name='BirdieBob' timestamp='1354123383' post='5990111']
Q. For a long putter that I use to anchor to my upper chest........ [b]If I anchor my upper hand to my loose shirt that I pull down tight around my neck, is that ok? This is then anchored to my shirt, NOT my body![/b]
[/quote]


still lookiing for a RULES DECISION!
Is this a legit workaround? :D

CALLAWAY Customs (Black w/Silver) "The FREAK" Mavrik Sub Zero Driver, 9*, Accra TZ6/M5 72g X
CALLAWAY Mavrik Sub Zero 3 Wood, 15*, Accra TZ6/M5 80g X

TAYLORMADE SIM2 RESCUE, 16*, Diamana Thump 105g X
TAYLORMADE SIM2 RESCUE, 21*, Diamana Thump 105g X
TAYLORMADE P790 - 4, 5, 6, PX IO 6.5
CALLAWAY APEX 21 TOUR CB, 4 - GW, PX IO 6.5

CALLAWAY APEX 21 MB, 5 - GW, PX LS 6.5

CALLAWAY JAWS Forged Wedges, Chrome, 55/11C; 60/10C; PX LS 6.5

TOULON GARAGE Austin Custom Rose Gold

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[quote name='tv23' timestamp='1354124481' post='5990201']
:D i'm [b]happy[/b] because...[list]
[*]traffic on the website i own, [url="http://www.dictionary.com"]www.dictionary.com[/url], is way up in the last hour. seems due to the keyword search [i]"bifurcation" [/i]
[*]steve williams will make less money and nobody deserves less money than steve williams
[*]i always thought it was cheating and am glad it's gone. i tried it for 1 round and was disgusted with myself. my head said it was within the rules, but my gut wanted to puke. this is the right move
[*]i can't stand keegan bradley and webb simpson... and slightly off topic, but they both have male boobies which is a total juxtaposition on skinny dudes.
[/list]
:( i'm [b]sad [/b]because...[list]
[*]it's delayed to 2016. put it in now.
[*]my favorite golfer of all time, ernie els, will have a difficult time winning again. this hurts me (and the game of golf at large)
[*]adam scott will be mediocre. once again. what a shame considering he has the best swing in golf
[*]carl pettersson is a good dude, but he will suffer, and i don't like when good dudes have to suffer
[*]kevin stadler may actually hurt himself if he has to use a short putter
[/list]
:angry2: i'm [b]angry[/b] because...[list]
[*]i will have to listen to rich "bison-head" lerner, who is intolerable at the best of times, even when there is no controversy in the game
[*]in general, dumb people make me angry. many amateurs and hacks alike think they have to abide by the new rule. they don't realize they can play with belly putters, old grooves, and non-conforming drivers. whatever helps you enjoy the game man. get over it.
[*]i can't handle all the "bad back" stories and it's only been a few hours since the announcement. i'm the canadian version of fred couples, and add to that bad knees to boot..... but it would take a heck of lot more than aches and pains to keep me off the golf course. there's nothing else i'd rather be doing. doesn't anyone use alieve?
[/list]
[/quote]

I'm ANGRY because...

I won't get the 30 seconds of my life back for reading this dreck...

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I guess the three months gives Keegan Bradley time to file his lawsuit.

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Callaway Epic Max Fairway Wood, 18.0, Project X HZRDUS Smoke iM10 60 Graphite 5.5
Titleist T200 Irons, 4 to AW, True Temper AMT Black R300
Titleist Vokey SM7 Wedges, 56* and 60*, M Grind, True Temper Dynamic Gold S200
Titleist Scotty Cameron Special Select Putter, Newport 2

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[quote name='Asleep' timestamp='1354123764' post='5990139']
[quote name='Rockminer' timestamp='1354116477' post='5989395']IMO there is no other way to take it other than he want's credit for it. Every thread that has to do with this subject has been locked by [b]ZAK[/b]. ( many started a long time ago). I agree that one thread would be good, but there we're plenty of good conversations going on, that we're blown up, so that Zak could have the only ulocked thread on the subject.[/quote]

[b]Zak is just doing his job, guys. [/b]

[b]We've had a general policy here to lock or merge threads on the same topic, resulting in one group "conversation" on significant subjects. This is something that had been suggested/requested by many members in the past -- members who don't want to "miss anything" but don't have the time to jump around 3 or 4 different threads to keep up with the discussion.[/b]

[b]Thanks. :)[/b]
[/quote]

Fair enough. I just didn't see threads talking about a ruling to come, and threads talking about the ruling we're the exact same. Now that the rule has come out, i figured they would go away on their own. ( they would come here )

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Here's the weird thing about this rule change.
I was raised playing golf under the impression that anchoring WAS illegal. My dad basically taught me that.
A lot of my friends believed the same thing. In fact, I would argue the majority of golfers believed anchoring was illegal already.
It wasn't until last year that it was brought to my attention that there was no rule stipulating it's illegality.

I didn't change to anchoring once I learned I could.
But, up until Bradley and Simpson et al, put it in vogue, I think most recreational golfers thought it was not a legal move. Am I wrong?
So, how much does this rule REALLY change golf for people who aren't playing for millions on Sunday?

The honest truth is, most of the people I've played with that anchored were older gentlemen. They had back issues, etc. I never made a big deal out of it when I played with them b/c it's not like we had money riding on it AND they weren't pros. So.... no big deal.
I don't expect this ruling to make for any real changes with anybody I play with or know.

It just sucks that we will have ONE LESS THREAD TOPIC to exercise our hyperbole on, ad nauseum.

Driver Callaway Razr Fit Xtreme
Callaway X Hot Pro 13.5* and 17* FW
Callaway Razr X Tour 21* Hybrid
Callaway Apex Pro 5-PW, Mizuno JPX 50*,
Mizuno MPT-11 54*, Vokey SM4 60/10,
Scotty Cameron Circa 62 #2

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