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R1 V1 vs R1 V2 on the Launch Monitor: Which one performs better? Tuesaday Update: Getting fit for th


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Bringing this one back to the top as it has some good testing data available for the R1.

I am looking at both the R1 and RBZ S2... Tour TP drivers.
Seems like the R1 with the toe and heel weights, more loft adjustment, and face angle adjustment via the sole might be the better choice for about
+$50.

Big thanks to Caesar for all the work testing this driver!!

DRIVERS:  BLACK OPS TOUR 8*, Vanquish 4TX // Tour 9*, Diamana WB 53X // 0311 9*, Ventus Blue+ 5X

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[quote name='Big Ben' timestamp='1362099701' post='6523439']
Interesting that we had a post removed from a member that enlightened us on how he was able to purchase true tour issue clubs directly from Taylormade for less than retail if you know the right people, that must be how the volume of TM Tour issue gear manages its way to the open market. Specifically mentioned his R11 Dot and his 4 wood, wonder why it was pulled down?? BB
[/quote]


BB, I'm the member who made that post, and by my own doing I decided to remove it shortly thereafter. I figured you would read it because I quoted you and assumed you would get the email. Nothing I posted was secret, but I simply decided there was no point in stirring this pot any further. No conspiracy, just thought better of upsetting any fellow members here.

My tour issue clubs where not purchased from TaylorMade directly, they were purchased through a retailer who apparently has connections at TaylorMade and can occasionally get tour issue pieces. What I struggle to understand is not how a retailer can receive one or two tour pieces, but how Mr. Peoples can get tour issue pieces by the hundreds and openly sell them to the public at outrageously high prices with no recourse from TaylorMade. If I myself were an authorized TaylorMade retailer I would be outraged by this.

If you look in my signature you will see that I still game the 4 wood, it is by far the best fairway would I have ever played. However, the R11 Dot was more club than I could handle, the ball simply wouldn't stay in the air for me (my swing speed is just below 100). Out of the guys who have messed with the Dot, only the ones with swing speeds in the 115+ range got anything good out of it. So I guess sometimes tour issue equipment is good for an amateur, like my 4 wood, and sometimes it's not, like my R11 Dot.

I don't buy into the concept of tour issue equipment being the holy grail, because my personal results are mixed. I also don't buy into the concept that one or two retailers should have a monopoly on tour issue equipment and price gauge amateurs attempting to play what they perceive as better equipment.

Just my two cents...

PING G430 Max 10K Driver 8º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 5

PING G430 Max 3 Wood 14º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 6

Titleist TSr2 5 Wood 18º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 7

Titleist TSr2 7 Wood 21º ~ GD Tour AD-XC 8

Srixon ZX4 Mk II Irons 5–7 ~ Project X IO 6.0

Srixon ZX5 Mk II Irons 8–P ~ Project X IO 6.0

Vokey Design SM9 Raw Wedges 'Voke' Handground 50.12F • 56.08M • 62.08M ~ Project X 6.0
Odyssey  Tri-Hot 5K Three ~ BGT Stability Tour 2 Polar
Titleist Pro V1x ~ #12

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@G-Bone had both a R11 dot and R11 retail and the dot spun close to 700 rpm less at an avg 106 swing speed. So it worked for me and it also looked and sounded better.

In the live TM Q&A I asked the question on how tour issue gear (in bulk) got in the hands of some to sell? My question was quickly skipped over

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[quote name='G-Bone' timestamp='1363225151' post='6607967']
[quote name='Big Ben' timestamp='1362099701' post='6523439']
Interesting that we had a post removed from a member that enlightened us on how he was able to purchase true tour issue clubs directly from Taylormade for less than retail if you know the right people, that must be how the volume of TM Tour issue gear manages its way to the open market. Specifically mentioned his R11 Dot and his 4 wood, wonder why it was pulled down?? BB
[/quote]


BB, I'm the member who made that post, and by my own doing I decided to remove it shortly thereafter. I figured you would read it because I quoted you and assumed you would get the email. Nothing I posted was secret, but I simply decided there was no point in stirring this pot any further. No conspiracy, just thought better of upsetting any fellow members here.

My tour issue clubs where not purchased from TaylorMade directly, they were purchased through a retailer who apparently has connections at TaylorMade and can occasionally get tour issue pieces. What I struggle to understand is not how a retailer can receive one or two tour pieces, but how Mr. Peoples can get tour issue pieces by the hundreds and openly sell them to the public at outrageously high prices with no recourse from TaylorMade. If I myself were an authorized TaylorMade retailer I would be outraged by this.

If you look in my signature you will see that I still game the 4 wood, it is by far the best fairway would I have ever played. However, the R11 Dot was more club than I could handle, the ball simply wouldn't stay in the air for me (my swing speed is just below 100). Out of the guys who have messed with the Dot, only the ones with swing speeds in the 115+ range got anything good out of it. So I guess sometimes tour issue equipment is good for an amateur, like my 4 wood, and sometimes it's not, like my R11 Dot.

I don't buy into the concept of tour issue equipment being the holy grail, because my personal results are mixed. I also don't buy into the concept that one or two retailers should have a monopoly on tour issue equipment and price gauge amateurs attempting to play what they perceive as better equipment.

Just my two cents...
[/quote]


Will Peoples doesn't get heads by the hundreds. He may get that many throughout the year, but never one bulk shipment as you suggested. I've made several posts regarding how/why Tour heads are acquired and are sold and each situation is a little different. What is it exactly that you don't like about Tour products being sold in the aftermarket by select people who are servicing a small market? Are you jealous that these people have to pay more to acquire them in most instances than retail wholesale, therefore that coupled with the limited availability the prices are higher? Their margins in most cases aren't as high as retail. There are some sellers who can buy old stock Tour heads late in the year from companies direct, when they are trying to cycle out old product. These heads sometimes are way out of spec for Tour use to begin with and they aren't true "Tour Heads"....not always but sometimes this is the case. It seems there are a handful of members on this site that truly think these companies need to release these heads in the retail market. I would be curious how many of these same members know the actual sales numbers that "Tour" inspired clubs actually pull in the retail market. How many of the normal golfing population can actually benefit from a club that fits so few? Is a Chevy Nascar race car engine the same as a normal Chevy Corvette? Should they be? Under this assumption that the market demands high performance and specific stuff, why don't all companies in all industries release every single option they have? The answer is, no, they shouldn't. If there was enough demand they would. The fact that a company like Taylormade lets some heads knowingly or unknowingly into the market through eBay or the forums is not a concern for most companies. In fact they like that they pull a premium and don't want to dilute that product for a variety of reasons. I like the fact that you at least acknowledge that Tour Issue isn't always "better" it's just more specific. For that reason I don't see many companies going backwards in sales to meet the demands of a really really small percentage of the total golfing population.

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[quote name='BirdieBob' timestamp='1362342250' post='6539629']
Bringing this one back to the top as it has some good testing data available for the R1.

I am looking at both the R1 and RBZ S2... Tour TP drivers.
Seems like the R1 with the toe and heel weights, more loft adjustment, and face angle adjustment via the sole might be the better choice for about
+$50.

Big thanks to Caesar for all the work testing this driver!!
[/quote]

You nailed it on the head. The R1 driver has more tuning options and in most cases is going to be the better performing driver because of more options. However, the R1 is very low spin even in Retail trim, so some players might benefit from the more spin of the RBZ Stage 2. The Stage 2 also fits the bill for players who want to have a matching bag of woods and aren't always concerned with the added tuning options. As odd as it sounds, there are still many people that don't even care about "fitting" and just walk in and buy what looks cool or matches.

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[quote name='whatshannenin' timestamp='1363301550' post='6613181']
[quote name='BirdieBob' timestamp='1362342250' post='6539629']
Bringing this one back to the top as it has some good testing data available for the R1.

I am looking at both the R1 and RBZ S2... Tour TP drivers.
Seems like the R1 with the toe and heel weights, more loft adjustment, and face angle adjustment via the sole might be the better choice for about
+$50.

Big thanks to Caesar for all the work testing this driver!!
[/quote]

You nailed it on the head. The R1 driver has more tuning options and in most cases is going to be the better performing driver because of more options. However, the R1 is very low spin even in Retail trim, so some players might benefit from the more spin of the RBZ Stage 2. The Stage 2 also fits the bill for players who want to have a matching bag of woods and aren't always concerned with the added tuning options. As odd as it sounds, there are still many people that don't even care about "fitting" and just walk in and buy what looks cool or matches.
[/quote]

What's your opinion on CG location changing as loft changes especially ones that adjust as far as the R1 one loft heads? By that I mean the trade offs as far and launch and spin go with the change in CG that counteracts the same change in loft?

[b]XHP 3-Deep (13)- 7.3X @ 43.5”
X-Forged UT (#3- 21)- DG X700
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Cameron Napa California @ 34"[/b]

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[quote name='whatshannenin' timestamp='1363301154' post='6613151']
[quote name='G-Bone' timestamp='1363225151' post='6607967']
[quote name='Big Ben' timestamp='1362099701' post='6523439']
Interesting that we had a post removed from a member that enlightened us on how he was able to purchase true tour issue clubs directly from Taylormade for less than retail if you know the right people, that must be how the volume of TM Tour issue gear manages its way to the open market. Specifically mentioned his R11 Dot and his 4 wood, wonder why it was pulled down?? BB
[/quote]


BB, I'm the member who made that post, and by my own doing I decided to remove it shortly thereafter. I figured you would read it because I quoted you and assumed you would get the email. Nothing I posted was secret, but I simply decided there was no point in stirring this pot any further. No conspiracy, just thought better of upsetting any fellow members here.

My tour issue clubs where not purchased from TaylorMade directly, they were purchased through a retailer who apparently has connections at TaylorMade and can occasionally get tour issue pieces. What I struggle to understand is not how a retailer can receive one or two tour pieces, but how Mr. Peoples can get tour issue pieces by the hundreds and openly sell them to the public at outrageously high prices with no recourse from TaylorMade. If I myself were an authorized TaylorMade retailer I would be outraged by this.

If you look in my signature you will see that I still game the 4 wood, it is by far the best fairway would I have ever played. However, the R11 Dot was more club than I could handle, the ball simply wouldn't stay in the air for me (my swing speed is just below 100). Out of the guys who have messed with the Dot, only the ones with swing speeds in the 115+ range got anything good out of it. So I guess sometimes tour issue equipment is good for an amateur, like my 4 wood, and sometimes it's not, like my R11 Dot.

I don't buy into the concept of tour issue equipment being the holy grail, because my personal results are mixed. I also don't buy into the concept that one or two retailers should have a monopoly on tour issue equipment and price gauge amateurs attempting to play what they perceive as better equipment.

Just my two cents...
[/quote]


Will Peoples doesn't get heads by the hundreds. He may get that many throughout the year, but never one bulk shipment as you suggested. I've made several posts regarding how/why Tour heads are acquired and are sold and each situation is a little different. What is it exactly that you don't like about Tour products being sold in the aftermarket by select people who are servicing a small market? Are you jealous that these people have to pay more to acquire them in most instances than retail wholesale, therefore that coupled with the limited availability the prices are higher? Their margins in most cases aren't as high as retail. There are some sellers who can buy old stock Tour heads late in the year from companies direct, when they are trying to cycle out old product. These heads sometimes are way out of spec for Tour use to begin with and they aren't true "Tour Heads"....not always but sometimes this is the case. It seems there are a handful of members on this site that truly think these companies need to release these heads in the retail market. I would be curious how many of these same members know the actual sales numbers that "Tour" inspired clubs actually pull in the retail market. How many of the normal golfing population can actually benefit from a club that fits so few? Is a Chevy Nascar race car engine the same as a normal Chevy Corvette? Should they be? Under this assumption that the market demands high performance and specific stuff, why don't all companies in all industries release every single option they have? The answer is, no, they shouldn't. If there was enough demand they would. The fact that a company like Taylormade lets some heads knowingly or unknowingly into the market through eBay or the forums is not a concern for most companies. In fact they like that they pull a premium and don't want to dilute that product for a variety of reasons. I like the fact that you at least acknowledge that Tour Issue isn't always "better" it's just more specific. For that reason I don't see many companies going backwards in sales to meet the demands of a really really small percentage of the total golfing population.
[/quote]

I'm not interested in debating if tour issue is better or not. I'm also not interested in in debating if TaylorMade should, or should not release tour issue equipment. My issue is simple, [u][i][b]IF[/b][/i][/u] TaylorMade is going to release tour issue equipment, then do just that, release it! But RELEASE IT TO EVERYONE, not just select boutiques who charge exorbitant amounts to ambitious amateurs like ourselves. It is really that simple.

I never said Mr. Peoples gets hundreds per shipment, I said he gets hundreds, and apparently you can confirm that, so thank you. As far as price gauging goes, I know exactly what wholesale was on my two TaylorMade tour issue heads, and it's safe to say that if Mr. Peoples paid the same wholesale price that I did, he is making considerably higher margins on his tour offerings than the average retailer is making on the standard retail offerings... And that my friend is a fact.

I hope this clears the air... Because I don't care if TaylorMade, Chevrolet, Apple or Kellogg's Cereal offers everything they have in their dark, secret, little rooms. I only care that if they do indeed choose to offer them, that they do it through their standard dealer network, thereby avoiding all the confusion and price gauging currently taking place.

PING G430 Max 10K Driver 8º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 5

PING G430 Max 3 Wood 14º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 6

Titleist TSr2 5 Wood 18º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 7

Titleist TSr2 7 Wood 21º ~ GD Tour AD-XC 8

Srixon ZX4 Mk II Irons 5–7 ~ Project X IO 6.0

Srixon ZX5 Mk II Irons 8–P ~ Project X IO 6.0

Vokey Design SM9 Raw Wedges 'Voke' Handground 50.12F • 56.08M • 62.08M ~ Project X 6.0
Odyssey  Tri-Hot 5K Three ~ BGT Stability Tour 2 Polar
Titleist Pro V1x ~ #12

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[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1363302903' post='6613301']
[quote name='whatshannenin' timestamp='1363301550' post='6613181']
[quote name='BirdieBob' timestamp='1362342250' post='6539629']
Bringing this one back to the top as it has some good testing data available for the R1.

I am looking at both the R1 and RBZ S2... Tour TP drivers.
Seems like the R1 with the toe and heel weights, more loft adjustment, and face angle adjustment via the sole might be the better choice for about
+$50.

Big thanks to Caesar for all the work testing this driver!!
[/quote]

You nailed it on the head. The R1 driver has more tuning options and in most cases is going to be the better performing driver because of more options. However, the R1 is very low spin even in Retail trim, so some players might benefit from the more spin of the RBZ Stage 2. The Stage 2 also fits the bill for players who want to have a matching bag of woods and aren't always concerned with the added tuning options. As odd as it sounds, there are still many people that don't even care about "fitting" and just walk in and buy what looks cool or matches.
[/quote]

What's your opinion on CG location changing as loft changes especially ones that adjust as far as the R1 one loft heads? By that I mean the trade offs as far and launch and spin go with the change in CG that counteracts the same change in loft?
[/quote]


C.O.G is definitely changed when you open or close the face. To the exact degree? I haven't done that research, yet. I've asked a similar question to a couple top people when I was at a function and received a wide eyed reaction of "How would you know such a thing" however, if you take a MWT driver like the R1 and open or close the face....watch the height of the C.O.G and location change. So the MWT bias on a Neutral face angle is going to be different when that face is set at +3 Open and loft of 8*. TM has a patent on C.O.G height and placement, and I would say with almost certainty that this is going to be an option to some degree in the future. It's going to take some serious engineering to employ, but it's definitely the final step in a 100% complete clubhead.

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[quote name='G-Bone' timestamp='1363303680' post='6613387']
[quote name='whatshannenin' timestamp='1363301154' post='6613151']
[quote name='G-Bone' timestamp='1363225151' post='6607967']
[quote name='Big Ben' timestamp='1362099701' post='6523439']
Interesting that we had a post removed from a member that enlightened us on how he was able to purchase true tour issue clubs directly from Taylormade for less than retail if you know the right people, that must be how the volume of TM Tour issue gear manages its way to the open market. Specifically mentioned his R11 Dot and his 4 wood, wonder why it was pulled down?? BB
[/quote]


BB, I'm the member who made that post, and by my own doing I decided to remove it shortly thereafter. I figured you would read it because I quoted you and assumed you would get the email. Nothing I posted was secret, but I simply decided there was no point in stirring this pot any further. No conspiracy, just thought better of upsetting any fellow members here.

My tour issue clubs where not purchased from TaylorMade directly, they were purchased through a retailer who apparently has connections at TaylorMade and can occasionally get tour issue pieces. What I struggle to understand is not how a retailer can receive one or two tour pieces, but how Mr. Peoples can get tour issue pieces by the hundreds and openly sell them to the public at outrageously high prices with no recourse from TaylorMade. If I myself were an authorized TaylorMade retailer I would be outraged by this.

If you look in my signature you will see that I still game the 4 wood, it is by far the best fairway would I have ever played. However, the R11 Dot was more club than I could handle, the ball simply wouldn't stay in the air for me (my swing speed is just below 100). Out of the guys who have messed with the Dot, only the ones with swing speeds in the 115+ range got anything good out of it. So I guess sometimes tour issue equipment is good for an amateur, like my 4 wood, and sometimes it's not, like my R11 Dot.

I don't buy into the concept of tour issue equipment being the holy grail, because my personal results are mixed. I also don't buy into the concept that one or two retailers should have a monopoly on tour issue equipment and price gauge amateurs attempting to play what they perceive as better equipment.

Just my two cents...
[/quote]


Will Peoples doesn't get heads by the hundreds. He may get that many throughout the year, but never one bulk shipment as you suggested. I've made several posts regarding how/why Tour heads are acquired and are sold and each situation is a little different. What is it exactly that you don't like about Tour products being sold in the aftermarket by select people who are servicing a small market? Are you jealous that these people have to pay more to acquire them in most instances than retail wholesale, therefore that coupled with the limited availability the prices are higher? Their margins in most cases aren't as high as retail. There are some sellers who can buy old stock Tour heads late in the year from companies direct, when they are trying to cycle out old product. These heads sometimes are way out of spec for Tour use to begin with and they aren't true "Tour Heads"....not always but sometimes this is the case. It seems there are a handful of members on this site that truly think these companies need to release these heads in the retail market. I would be curious how many of these same members know the actual sales numbers that "Tour" inspired clubs actually pull in the retail market. How many of the normal golfing population can actually benefit from a club that fits so few? Is a Chevy Nascar race car engine the same as a normal Chevy Corvette? Should they be? Under this assumption that the market demands high performance and specific stuff, why don't all companies in all industries release every single option they have? The answer is, no, they shouldn't. If there was enough demand they would. The fact that a company like Taylormade lets some heads knowingly or unknowingly into the market through eBay or the forums is not a concern for most companies. In fact they like that they pull a premium and don't want to dilute that product for a variety of reasons. I like the fact that you at least acknowledge that Tour Issue isn't always "better" it's just more specific. For that reason I don't see many companies going backwards in sales to meet the demands of a really really small percentage of the total golfing population.
[/quote]

I'm not interested in debating if tour issue is better or not. I'm also not interested in in debating if TaylorMade should, or should not release tour issue equipment. My issue is simple, [u][i][b]IF[/b][/i][/u] TaylorMade is going to release tour issue equipment, then do just that, release it! But RELEASE IT TO EVERYONE, not just select boutiques who charge exorbitant amounts to ambitious amateurs like ourselves. It is really that simple.

I never said Mr. Peoples gets hundreds per shipment, I said he gets hundreds, and apparently you can confirm that, so thank you. As far as price gauging goes, I know exactly what wholesale was on my two TaylorMade tour issue heads, and it's safe to say that if Mr. Peoples paid the same wholesale price that I did, he is making considerably higher margins on his tour offerings than the average retailer is making on the standard retail offerings... And that my friend is a fact.

I hope this clears the air... Because I don't care if TaylorMade, Chevrolet, Apple or Kellogg's Cereal offers everything they have in their dark, secret, little rooms. I only care that if they do indeed choose to offer them, that they do it through their standard dealer network, thereby avoiding all the confusion and price gauging currently taking place.
[/quote]


I understand what you are saying. In my opinion a limited release would make sense for Taylormade of Tour products, but I think they have realized it's a hard sale for almost all retailers, especially to stock them. If they were offered through higher end accounts, say a "Tech" account like a Cool Clubs/Hotstix style operation or through their network of Performance Labs, would that suffice? Like I've said in several other threads, if there was a market, do you think they would leave money on the table?

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What bothers me is if there are minimal differences in performance and those numbers are not properly exposed than WE as a community is doing a DISSERVICE to each other. Spending $1,000.00 for a head and get different result than you read is a crying shame for us and the game. Because of this reason we need to be vigilant to discover and be completely transparent.

Zak is writing the story and should be finished by next week but after talking to TMag I cant see the need to want a tour head. But we have not been able to design a proper DOE to analyze the two heads either. Meaning we cant objectively say of the performance is appreciatively different. There are a lot of variables.

Personally I just got one in and I will compare it but unless we measure the face angle of each head the experiment will be flawed. But one thing that I will hit by hitting them both on Flightscope is a apples to apples test to see if one is better for me over another.

I have only heard from TMag no appreciative differences in performance over the two. I am sure we will have more data than you ever wanted to read before this year is over. Not by myself or our editor team, rather from our membership. How many of us will read similar tests side by side. The data is just now starting to seep out.

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@whatshannenin,



Almost anything is better than what is happening now, we can agree on that.

As far as leaving money on the table, I'm pretty sure Mark King makes money in his sleep! We both know there's money to be made... That's why you and I can buy V2 and V3 heads right now on eBay or Mr. Peoples website, right?

PING G430 Max 10K Driver 8º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 5

PING G430 Max 3 Wood 14º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 6

Titleist TSr2 5 Wood 18º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 7

Titleist TSr2 7 Wood 21º ~ GD Tour AD-XC 8

Srixon ZX4 Mk II Irons 5–7 ~ Project X IO 6.0

Srixon ZX5 Mk II Irons 8–P ~ Project X IO 6.0

Vokey Design SM9 Raw Wedges 'Voke' Handground 50.12F • 56.08M • 62.08M ~ Project X 6.0
Odyssey  Tri-Hot 5K Three ~ BGT Stability Tour 2 Polar
Titleist Pro V1x ~ #12

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[quote name='easyyy' timestamp='1363306255' post='6613643']
What bothers me is if there are minimal differences in performance and those numbers are not properly exposed than WE as a community is doing a DISSERVICE to each other. Spending $1,000.00 for a head and get different result than you read is a crying shame for us and the game. Because of this reason we need to be vigilant to discover and be completely transparent.

Zak is writing the story and should be finished by next week but after talking to TMag I cant see the need to want a tour head. But we have not been able to design a proper DOE to analyze the two heads either. Meaning we cant objectively say of the performance is appreciatively different. There are a lot of variables.

Personally I just got one in and I will compare it but unless we measure the face angle of each head the experiment will be flawed. But one thing that I will hit by hitting them both on Flightscope is a apples to apples test to see if one is better for me over another.

I have only heard from TMag no appreciative differences in performance over the two. I am sure we will have more data than you ever wanted to read before this year is over. Not by myself or our editor team, rather from our membership. How many of us will read similar tests side by side. The data is just now starting to seep out.
[/quote]

If it is the case that there "no appreciative differences in performance", than TMAG should have no issue with being honest with the consumers and saying that the tour pros are ALL using a different head, and explaining that the differences are not that great. The issue would be solved. As it stands now, it just looks like they are hiding something.

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[quote name='mosesgolf' timestamp='1361295884' post='6458815']
I've hit dozens and dozens of tour issue drivers over the years with virtually all the latest and greatest shafts. Sorry tour ho's but retail = tour once properly dialed in. Tour feel comes from hot melt. It's funny how the tour crowd is scratching their heads and trying to come up with ways to improve the tour head #'s. Even if the swingweight is brought up and if that's going to even help, the numbers will not be skewed so much that the retail head becomes inferior.
[/quote]

amen

Tsr2 9*

BRNR Mini 13.5*

Gen 5 XF 17.5*

818 H1 20*/24*

Ping i210 6-P (29*-45*)

Ping iE1 50*/Ping Glide 3.0 54*/58*

Ping Fetch

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[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1363306982' post='6613697']
[quote name='easyyy' timestamp='1363306255' post='6613643']
What bothers me is if there are minimal differences in performance and those numbers are not properly exposed than WE as a community is doing a DISSERVICE to each other. Spending $1,000.00 for a head and get different result than you read is a crying shame for us and the game. Because of this reason we need to be vigilant to discover and be completely transparent.

Zak is writing the story and should be finished by next week but after talking to TMag I cant see the need to want a tour head. But we have not been able to design a proper DOE to analyze the two heads either. Meaning we cant objectively say of the performance is appreciatively different. There are a lot of variables.

Personally I just got one in and I will compare it but unless we measure the face angle of each head the experiment will be flawed. But one thing that I will hit by hitting them both on Flightscope is a apples to apples test to see if one is better for me over another.

I have only heard from TMag no appreciative differences in performance over the two. I am sure we will have more data than you ever wanted to read before this year is over. Not by myself or our editor team, rather from our membership. How many of us will read similar tests side by side. The data is just now starting to seep out.
[/quote]

If it is the case that there "no appreciative differences in performance", than TMAG should have no issue with being honest with the consumers and saying that the tour pros are ALL using a different head, and explaining that the differences are not that great. The issue would be solved. As it stands now, it just looks like they are hiding something.
[/quote]

as you saw by my tests i saw barely any difference, i just liked the sound and somewhat feel more with the V2 and the way i could work the ball. now after playing it for a few weeks...its killing me. misses are exaggerated with the smaller head.

overall i dont spin it any overly less, or have greater ball speed with one or the other. it all depends on the swing i put on it. other then sound and feel i wouldnt know a difference in the heads.

Taylormade M4 8.5 Oban Kiyoshi White
Taylormade Aeroburner 15* Diamana S+ 72
Taylormade SLDR 17* Hybrid S+ 82
Taylormade P770 4-PW KBS Ctaper Lite
Taylormade Milled Grind 51* 55* 60*
Taylormade Spider Ghost

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[quote name='dplambert1' timestamp='1363310878' post='6614139']
[attachment=1584955:meme.jpg]
[/quote]

Hahaha!

Well said!

PING G430 Max 10K Driver 8º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 5

PING G430 Max 3 Wood 14º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 6

Titleist TSr2 5 Wood 18º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 7

Titleist TSr2 7 Wood 21º ~ GD Tour AD-XC 8

Srixon ZX4 Mk II Irons 5–7 ~ Project X IO 6.0

Srixon ZX5 Mk II Irons 8–P ~ Project X IO 6.0

Vokey Design SM9 Raw Wedges 'Voke' Handground 50.12F • 56.08M • 62.08M ~ Project X 6.0
Odyssey  Tri-Hot 5K Three ~ BGT Stability Tour 2 Polar
Titleist Pro V1x ~ #12

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[quote name='dplambert1' timestamp='1363310878' post='6614139']
[attachment=1584955:meme.jpg]
[/quote]That cracks me up. Nice work!

Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Aldila Rogue Silver 60X
Callaway Big Bertha Alpha 16.5 Aldila Rogue Silver 70s
Callaway XR Pro 3-PW KBS Tour V 110S
Ping Anser 50 KBS Tour 120S
Ping Tour S Rustique 54 bent to 55 KBS Tour 120S
Callaway XForged 60 TT S400
Scotty Cameron Select Newport 2 2012

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[quote name='easyyy' timestamp='1363306255' post='6613643']
What bothers me is if there are minimal differences in performance and those numbers are not properly exposed than WE as a community is doing a DISSERVICE to each other. Spending $1,000.00 for a head and get different result than you read is a crying shame for us and the game. Because of this reason we need to be vigilant to discover and be completely transparent.

Zak is writing the story and should be finished by next week but after talking to TMag I cant see the need to want a tour head. But we have not been able to design a proper DOE to analyze the two heads either. Meaning we cant objectively say of the performance is appreciatively different. There are a lot of variables.

Personally I just got one in and I will compare it but unless we measure the face angle of each head the experiment will be flawed. But one thing that I will hit by hitting them both on Flightscope is a apples to apples test to see if one is better for me over another.

I have only heard from TMag no appreciative differences in performance over the two. I am sure we will have more data than you ever wanted to read before this year is over. Not by myself or our editor team, rather from our membership. How many of us will read similar tests side by side. The data is just now starting to seep out.
[/quote]

I don't want to dig my own grave...but I'm a little confused as to why there is an outcry now? Every company has been offering Tour Only clubs for as long as I've been alive. I know you know this too. I'm all for educating the membership, but it seems as if Taylormade is getting singled out from all of the other companies that do the same thing. Personally, I don't see any foul from a company offering specialized heads that meet the demands of their paid endorsers if it helps sell similar style heads in retail trim. Too many people have bought the BSG Kool-aid and think that Tour Issue is ALWAYS better and they are getting shafted and to quote Mike Gundy "That's Not True!". What in actuality does a 10-30 handicapper stand to gain from a head designed to be played by someone who swings 20-30 MPH faster and hits the center of the face 90-95% of the time? I am on this site for at least a couple minutes a day and have been for several years, but I have pointed out in another post...while this is the best golf forum there is....total views and membership are still very low compared to total golfing population. That's not a knock on the site in any capacity. We are the golfing geeks of the world....ones who know more than companies used to not want us to know. I think the site influences some stuff with companies which is great....golf companies should listen to certain consumers....however.....what makes more sense: Releasing 2 heads that are going to fit 98-99.5% of the golfing population or one that fits %.002? How many people do these Tour Issue head legitimately fit? How many people that are paying $1k a head are truly seeing performance gain? Or are they just bragging in arbitrary forums to try and look cool amongst the clones? There is no way to tell completely, but either way....I don't see faults by either side of the argument.

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My guess for "why now" is because the R1 I can demo and purchase at GS has "1 loft technology" while every single driver head on tour does not. People are confused why tour players aren't using the new technology. Some people don't like it because of the marketing, they do say "you can play DJ's driver, here are his specs". A few, all much smarter than me, think the COG changes and the 1 loft tech may not be all that.

Ping/Epon/Scratch/Bettinardi WITB Link

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[quote name='whatshannenin' timestamp='1363327885' post='6615545']
[quote name='easyyy' timestamp='1363306255' post='6613643']
What bothers me is if there are minimal differences in performance and those numbers are not properly exposed than WE as a community is doing a DISSERVICE to each other. Spending $1,000.00 for a head and get different result than you read is a crying shame for us and the game. Because of this reason we need to be vigilant to discover and be completely transparent.

Zak is writing the story and should be finished by next week but after talking to TMag I cant see the need to want a tour head. But we have not been able to design a proper DOE to analyze the two heads either. Meaning we cant objectively say of the performance is appreciatively different. There are a lot of variables.

Personally I just got one in and I will compare it but unless we measure the face angle of each head the experiment will be flawed. But one thing that I will hit by hitting them both on Flightscope is a apples to apples test to see if one is better for me over another.

I have only heard from TMag no appreciative differences in performance over the two. I am sure we will have more data than you ever wanted to read before this year is over. Not by myself or our editor team, rather from our membership. How many of us will read similar tests side by side. The data is just now starting to seep out.
[/quote]

I don't want to dig my own grave...but I'm a little confused as to why there is an outcry now? Every company has been offering Tour Only clubs for as long as I've been alive. I know you know this too. I'm all for educating the membership, but it seems as if Taylormade is getting singled out from all of the other companies that do the same thing. Personally, I don't see any foul from a company offering specialized heads that meet the demands of their paid endorsers if it helps sell similar style heads in retail trim. Too many people have bought the BSG Kool-aid and think that Tour Issue is ALWAYS better and they are getting shafted and to quote Mike Gundy "That's Not True!". What in actuality does a 10-30 handicapper stand to gain from a head designed to be played by someone who swings 20-30 MPH faster and hits the center of the face 90-95% of the time? I am on this site for at least a couple minutes a day and have been for several years, but I have pointed out in another post...while this is the best golf forum there is....total views and membership are still very low compared to total golfing population. That's not a knock on the site in any capacity. We are the golfing geeks of the world....ones who know more than companies used to not want us to know. I think the site influences some stuff with companies which is great....golf companies should listen to certain consumers....however.....what makes more sense: Releasing 2 heads that are going to fit 98-99.5% of the golfing population or one that fits %.002? How many people do these Tour Issue head legitimately fit? How many people that are paying $1k a head are truly seeing performance gain? Or are they just bragging in arbitrary forums to try and look cool amongst the clones? There is no way to tell completely, but either way....I don't see faults by either side of the argument.
[/quote]

I don't have an answer for "why now," but my response would be "why NOT now?" As a membership, as a tight community of "golf geeks," we should not be proud of paying $1000 for a single driver head. Instead, we should be outraged that a monopoly has been created that allows the market price of tour issue equipment to go so high (gauging). As I mentioned in my previous post, not all tour issue gear fits amateurs, and not all amateur gear fits tour pros, but why should we be required to pay two to three times retail value to find out?

As easyyy mentioned, if that data was available we wouldn't be left to guess, as you mentioned, one size doesn't fit all, and as I have mentioned, TaylorMade and all retailers for that matter, should either release tour issued equipment or not release tour issue equipment (avoiding the goofy situation we are now seeing). Why should the select few of us who are now "in the know" (as you have pointed out so eloquently) be required to pay outrages prices to [i]maybe[/i] get a performance gains from tour issue equipment? I understand that no one makes us buy anything, but if we want to play what the "big boys play" its no secret that we are required to "pay for the big toys!"

Wouldn't it be nice if this elite tour issue equipment was handled through standard retail channels, thereby allowing this equipment to be found in fitting carts around the country? Allowing "golf geeks" like you and I to know what fits us best before opening our wallets? That's how it works now with retail equipment, why not tour issue (again, if they are going to release it, then just release it!)? Better yet, if this were an option, we would have hundreds of less threads here won GolfWRX's discussing the tour issued conspiracy theories.... OK, maybe those will never go away. :)

PING G430 Max 10K Driver 8º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 5

PING G430 Max 3 Wood 14º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 6

Titleist TSr2 5 Wood 18º ~ GD Tour AD-IZ 7

Titleist TSr2 7 Wood 21º ~ GD Tour AD-XC 8

Srixon ZX4 Mk II Irons 5–7 ~ Project X IO 6.0

Srixon ZX5 Mk II Irons 8–P ~ Project X IO 6.0

Vokey Design SM9 Raw Wedges 'Voke' Handground 50.12F • 56.08M • 62.08M ~ Project X 6.0
Odyssey  Tri-Hot 5K Three ~ BGT Stability Tour 2 Polar
Titleist Pro V1x ~ #12

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[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1363378382' post='6618651']
Not all companies do it. Some companies have the same product and services available to any customer that are available to the tour professional.
[/quote]

Who, Ping? How much do they charge for that digital head measuring service....and how many normal retail purchasers actually take advantage of that?

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[quote name='G-Bone' timestamp='1363356275' post='6616389']
[quote name='whatshannenin' timestamp='1363327885' post='6615545']
[quote name='easyyy' timestamp='1363306255' post='6613643']
What bothers me is if there are minimal differences in performance and those numbers are not properly exposed than WE as a community is doing a DISSERVICE to each other. Spending $1,000.00 for a head and get different result than you read is a crying shame for us and the game. Because of this reason we need to be vigilant to discover and be completely transparent.

Zak is writing the story and should be finished by next week but after talking to TMag I cant see the need to want a tour head. But we have not been able to design a proper DOE to analyze the two heads either. Meaning we cant objectively say of the performance is appreciatively different. There are a lot of variables.

Personally I just got one in and I will compare it but unless we measure the face angle of each head the experiment will be flawed. But one thing that I will hit by hitting them both on Flightscope is a apples to apples test to see if one is better for me over another.

I have only heard from TMag no appreciative differences in performance over the two. I am sure we will have more data than you ever wanted to read before this year is over. Not by myself or our editor team, rather from our membership. How many of us will read similar tests side by side. The data is just now starting to seep out.
[/quote]

I don't want to dig my own grave...but I'm a little confused as to why there is an outcry now? Every company has been offering Tour Only clubs for as long as I've been alive. I know you know this too. I'm all for educating the membership, but it seems as if Taylormade is getting singled out from all of the other companies that do the same thing. Personally, I don't see any foul from a company offering specialized heads that meet the demands of their paid endorsers if it helps sell similar style heads in retail trim. Too many people have bought the BSG Kool-aid and think that Tour Issue is ALWAYS better and they are getting shafted and to quote Mike Gundy "That's Not True!". What in actuality does a 10-30 handicapper stand to gain from a head designed to be played by someone who swings 20-30 MPH faster and hits the center of the face 90-95% of the time? I am on this site for at least a couple minutes a day and have been for several years, but I have pointed out in another post...while this is the best golf forum there is....total views and membership are still very low compared to total golfing population. That's not a knock on the site in any capacity. We are the golfing geeks of the world....ones who know more than companies used to not want us to know. I think the site influences some stuff with companies which is great....golf companies should listen to certain consumers....however.....what makes more sense: Releasing 2 heads that are going to fit 98-99.5% of the golfing population or one that fits %.002? How many people do these Tour Issue head legitimately fit? How many people that are paying $1k a head are truly seeing performance gain? Or are they just bragging in arbitrary forums to try and look cool amongst the clones? There is no way to tell completely, but either way....I don't see faults by either side of the argument.
[/quote]

I don't have an answer for "why now," but my response would be "why NOT now?" [b]As a membership, as a tight community of "golf geeks," we should not be proud of paying $1000 for a single driver head. I[/b]nstead, we should be outraged that a monopoly has been created that allows the market price of tour issue equipment to go so high (gauging). As I mentioned in my previous post, not all tour issue gear fits amateurs, and not all amateur gear fits tour pros, but why should we be required to pay two to three times retail value to find out?

As easyyy mentioned, if that data was available we wouldn't be left to guess, as you mentioned, one size doesn't fit all, and as I have mentioned, TaylorMade and all retailers for that matter, should either release tour issued equipment or not release tour issue equipment (avoiding the goofy situation we are now seeing). Why should the select few of us who are now "in the know" (as you have pointed out so eloquently) be required to pay outrages prices to [i]maybe[/i] get a performance gains from tour issue equipment? I understand that no one makes us buy anything, but if we want to play what the "big boys play" its no secret that we are required to "pay for the big toys!"

Wouldn't it be nice if this elite tour issue equipment was handled through standard retail channels, thereby allowing this equipment to be found in fitting carts around the country? Allowing "golf geeks" like you and I to know what fits us best before opening our wallets? That's how it works now with retail equipment, why not tour issue (again, if they are going to release it, then just release it!)? Better yet, if this were an option, we would have hundreds of less threads here won GolfWRX's discussing the tour issued conspiracy theories.... OK, maybe those will never go away. :)
[/quote]


What if they did release true Tour stuff and charged the prices the market is drawing now....maybe even slightly more, would that change people's minds? They would have to charge A LOT more to offer true Tour products to retail with all of the variables. You can't expect a company that makes clubs for 50-100 players on their staff to what ever degree that they need to then change directions and offer that same type of service to millions of people....that would be a total disaster. Other companies do offer Tour like services....Ping is the only major one that comes to mind though.....and possibly Adams in some avenues. Vokey, Cameron and Cleveland offer stamping and personalization, but not much beyond that. Scratch Golf and James Patrick are the only true one of a kind hand shape cavity and offset operations for irons and wedges. There are a ton of boutique putter companies as well. But what are there sales volumes and prices compared to a big company like Taylormade, Callaway or Titleist? There is a point of diminishing returns when you extend yourself too much in a market.

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[quote name='whatshannenin' timestamp='1363383434' post='6619235']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1363378382' post='6618651']
Not all companies do it. Some companies have the same product and services available to any customer that are available to the tour professional.
[/quote]

Who, Ping? How much do they charge for that digital head measuring service....and how many normal retail purchasers actually take advantage of that?
[/quote]

Retailer can charge whatever they want but its not much. The point is you are still using and buying the same exact club as the guys playing on tour. The only difference as you mentioned as "build to spec" which they will do with heads that are pulled from the same box as those for retail. Personally I think that's cool and I'm not saying the R1 retail head doesn't perform but every single release its always the same thing. V1 V2, dot, B head, C head.

[b]XHP 3-Deep (13)- 7.3X @ 43.5”
X-Forged UT (#3- 21)- DG X700
716MB (5-PW)- DG S400
Vokey (TVD SM7 RAW 52 & SM6 RAW 58)- DG S400
Cameron Napa California @ 34"[/b]

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[quote name='zakkozuchowski' timestamp='1363384197' post='6619321']
Guys,

Here's our front page story on TaylorMade "Tour heads " -- [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/76747/the-inside-scoop-on-taylormades-tour-heads/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...des-tour-heads/[/url]

- Zak
[/quote]

thanks Zak!

Taylormade M4 8.5 Oban Kiyoshi White
Taylormade Aeroburner 15* Diamana S+ 72
Taylormade SLDR 17* Hybrid S+ 82
Taylormade P770 4-PW KBS Ctaper Lite
Taylormade Milled Grind 51* 55* 60*
Taylormade Spider Ghost

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[quote name='zakkozuchowski' timestamp='1363384197' post='6619321']
Guys,

Here's our front page story on TaylorMade "Tour heads " -- [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/76747/the-inside-scoop-on-taylormades-tour-heads/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...des-tour-heads/[/url]

- Zak
[/quote]

Well done. Confirms all of my rebuttals stating why they don't release Tour Only stuff.

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[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1363384643' post='6619373']
[quote name='whatshannenin' timestamp='1363383434' post='6619235']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1363378382' post='6618651']
Not all companies do it. Some companies have the same product and services available to any customer that are available to the tour professional.
[/quote]

Who, Ping? How much do they charge for that digital head measuring service....and how many normal retail purchasers actually take advantage of that?
[/quote]

Retailer can charge whatever they want but its not much. The point is you are still using and buying the same exact club as the guys playing on tour. The only difference as you mentioned as "build to spec" which they will do with heads that are pulled from the same box as those for retail. Personally I think that's cool and I'm not saying the R1 retail head doesn't perform but every single release its always the same thing. V1 V2, dot, B head, C head.
[/quote]

At the end of the day, after reading Zak's article....there aren't a lot of people that are going to benefit from a Tour Only club. There are some, but not enough to warrant releasing them to the masses. It would hurt them more by having too many models that fit a small percentage rather than having one model that fits the overwhelming majority of golfers. I can see both sides of the argument and I've been on the forums for a very long time and have been on all sides of the Tour vs. Retail debates. Tour can be beneficial to some, but most likely not enough to warrant any kind of investment. You can't be everything to everyone even if your companies' mission statement is that. You have to pick what you do well and stick to it. We should feel lucky (even though most don't because of the increased costs) that there are some Tour heads available and that there are certain custom shops with the ability to fit and meet that small demand for those specific heads.

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