Putting some Hogan in my swing.....

[virtuoso]

Starting to work on the right elbow move:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmrrXjzZnPQ[/media]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnmvkfpCKpM[/media]

[jay65]

Very nice! Hope you have a chance, sometime, to have a look at that email I sent you?

[virtuoso]

[sup]Hey jay, sorry for the delay. I took a quick peak at it the other day. I'll take a closer look and see if I have any ideas. It looked very good at first glance.[/sup]

[jay65]

[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1365089064' post='6759759']
[sup]Hey jay, sorry for the delay. I took a quick peak at it the other day. I'll take a closer look and see if I have any ideas. It looked very good at first glance.[/sup]
[/quote]

Thank you, any improvements/thoughts that perhaps is Hogan based, that you think may help, would be so gratefully received.

[ajc57]

[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1365089064' post='6759759']
[sup]Hey jay, sorry for the delay. I took a quick peak at it the other day. I'll take a closer look and see if I have any ideas. It looked very good at first glance.[/sup]
[/quote]

hmmm, I love it. Hogan hopefuls always come in here looking for unbiased feedback but rarely offer anything in return once they get it. Christo came in here with the hit it and quit it too lol

You a have great swing vituoso, but trying to do so many things "right" can kill your motion in the long run - there comes a point when it's just time to fire away. Hogan reached a point where he was just getting in his own way too - that's when he decided to finally start playing golf instead of experimenting in perpetuity. Every golfer hits a point where experimenting starts to bring diminishing returns, and that's when you gotta settle into the swing you have and enjoy the ride. Paralysis by analysis is very real, and it really should get more respect than it does...

[virtuoso]

Hey ajc, I think those a great points about letting go and just playing by feel.

What do you think are good indicators that someone should stop trying new things in their swing? How can a person tell when they've reached that point of diminishing returns?

[ajc57]

[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1365182717' post='6768593']
Hey ajc, I think those a great points about letting go and just playing by feel.

What do you think are good indicators that someone should stop trying new things in their swing? How can a person tell when they've reached that point of diminishing returns?
[/quote]

I read a great book about the process of becoming a so called master and it made very interesting and difinitive points. The one that sticks out most in my mind is that learning curve of a master. It doesn't look like anything one would expect. Typically, it is thought that the learning curve starts out flat and then somewhere at the end it spikes up veritically, well apparently that's not the case at all....at least not when it comes to the type of physical and mental skills needed to become an expert at activities like golf.

Without boring you, the spikes are very small at first and frequent, and as you progress they get bigger/higher but that's always preceded by a longer flatline than the one before. Each new spike is also followed by a drop to a spot lower than the current spike, but higher than the previous flat line. In other words, you land somewhere in between the old line, and the new line. As you become more and more of an expert the flat parts are longer and longer. That doesn't mean you're not learning, but rather it's more of an incubation process.

Now, taking all that into consideration, what happens when you constantly tinker - in particular the better player - is that you never get past the certain points because you never allow yourself to reach those drawn out, highly coveted spikes that follow longer and longer flat learning periods. Think of it like this, when you switch what you're working on without getting to that coveted spike, you not only lose focus on that skill, you also revert to old habits. If you stop making changes based on visual feedback/video, you brain is forced to rely on feel - and feel is where the expert makes progress...a feedback loop (video, mirror etc) is necessary to establish fundamentals, but the expert relies on feel and ball flight to master his craft, not visual feedback.

[jay65]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1365170173' post='6766905']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1365089064' post='6759759']
[sup]Hey jay, sorry for the delay. I took a quick peak at it the other day. I'll take a closer look and see if I have any ideas. It looked very good at first glance.[/sup]
[/quote]

hmmm, I love it. Hogan hopefuls always come in here looking for unbiased feedback but rarely offer anything in return once they get it. Christo came in here with the hit it and quit it too lol

You a have great swing vituoso, but trying to do so many things "right" can kill your motion in the long run - there comes a point when it's just time to fire away. Hogan reached a point where he was just getting in his own way too - that's when he decided to finally start playing golf instead of experimenting in perpetuity. Every golfer hits a point where experimenting starts to bring diminishing returns, and that's when you gotta settle into the swing you have and enjoy the ride. Paralysis by analysis is very real, and it really should get more respect than it does...
[/quote]

Yeah, thanks for your most positive remarks about somebody who you don't even know and have never met. That really helps alot, cheers!

[ajc57]

[quote name='jay65' timestamp='1365189030' post='6769253']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1365170173' post='6766905']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1365089064' post='6759759']
[sup]Hey jay, sorry for the delay. I took a quick peak at it the other day. I'll take a closer look and see if I have any ideas. It looked very good at first glance.[/sup]
[/quote]

hmmm, I love it. Hogan hopefuls always come in here looking for unbiased feedback but rarely offer anything in return once they get it. Christo came in here with the hit it and quit it too lol

You a have great swing vituoso, but trying to do so many things "right" can kill your motion in the long run - there comes a point when it's just time to fire away. Hogan reached a point where he was just getting in his own way too - that's when he decided to finally start playing golf instead of experimenting in perpetuity. Every golfer hits a point where experimenting starts to bring diminishing returns, and that's when you gotta settle into the swing you have and enjoy the ride. Paralysis by analysis is very real, and it really should get more respect than it does...
[/quote]

Yeah, thanks for your most positive remarks about somebody who you don't even know and have never met. That really helps alot, cheers!
[/quote]

lol, I was actaully referring to Virtuoso, not you. He has lots of time to talk about his own swing but when you asked him to look at yours you get the cold shoulder. that's all I was saying brother. Anyway, cheers to you too.

[jay65]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1365189766' post='6769337']
[quote name='jay65' timestamp='1365189030' post='6769253']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1365170173' post='6766905']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1365089064' post='6759759']
[sup]Hey jay, sorry for the delay. I took a quick peak at it the other day. I'll take a closer look and see if I have any ideas. It looked very good at first glance.[/sup]
[/quote]

hmmm, I love it. Hogan hopefuls always come in here looking for unbiased feedback but rarely offer anything in return once they get it. Christo came in here with the hit it and quit it too lol

You a have great swing vituoso, but trying to do so many things "right" can kill your motion in the long run - there comes a point when it's just time to fire away. Hogan reached a point where he was just getting in his own way too - that's when he decided to finally start playing golf instead of experimenting in perpetuity. Every golfer hits a point where experimenting starts to bring diminishing returns, and that's when you gotta settle into the swing you have and enjoy the ride. Paralysis by analysis is very real, and it really should get more respect than it does...
[/quote]

Yeah, thanks for your most positive remarks about somebody who you don't even know and have never met. That really helps alot, cheers!
[/quote]

lol, I was actaully referring to Virtuoso, not you. He has lots of time to talk about his own swing but when you asked him to look at yours you get the cold shoulder. that's all I was saying brother. Anyway, cheers to you too.
[/quote]

I'm big enough to apologize for my misunderstanding. Sorry about the 'crossed wires'. I would say that Nick has since got back to me and given me some help, which has been very useful though.

[ajc57]

[quote name='jay65' timestamp='1365190660' post='6769443']
I'm big enough to apologize for my misunderstanding. Sorry about the 'crossed wires'. I would say that Nick has since got back to me and given me some help, which has been very useful though.
[/quote]

No apology needed. It happens to me all the time. I think I may be too direct for the internet lol

Glad I was wrong about virtuoso, sounds like he dishes out as much as he takes - the way it should be. We're all in this together, after all...

[virtuoso]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1365186398' post='6768993'] [quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1365182717' post='6768593'] Hey ajc, I think those a great points about letting go and just playing by feel. What do you think are good indicators that someone should stop trying new things in their swing? How can a person tell when they've reached that point of diminishing returns? [/quote] I read a great book about the process of becoming a so called master and it made very interesting and difinitive points. The one that sticks out most in my mind is that learning curve of a master. It doesn't look like anything one would expect. Typically, it is thought that the learning curve starts out flat and then somewhere at the end it spikes up veritically, well apparently that's not the case at all....at least not when it comes to the type of physical and mental skills needed to become an expert at activities like golf. Without boring you, the spikes are very small at first and frequent, and as you progress they get bigger/higher but that's always preceded by a longer flatline than the one before. Each new spike is also followed by a drop to a spot lower than the current spike, but higher than the previous flat line. In other words, you land somewhere in between the old line, and the new line. As you become more and more of an expert the flat parts are longer and longer. That doesn't mean you're not learning, but rather it's more of an incubation process. Now, taking all that into consideration, what happens when you constantly tinker - in particular the better player - is that you never get past the certain points because you never allow yourself to reach those drawn out, highly coveted spikes that follow longer and longer flat learning periods. Think of it like this, when you switch what you're working on without getting to that coveted spike, you not only lose focus on that skill, you also revert to old habits. If you stop making changes based on visual feedback/video, you brain is forced to rely on feel - and feel is where the expert makes progress...a feedback loop (video, mirror etc) is necessary to establish fundamentals, but the expert relies on feel and ball flight to master his craft, not visual feedback. [/quote]

Very interesting stuff ajc, thanks for the insight.

[virtuoso]

Back to work on this...

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_te0rkXAfI[/media]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQxvIqQ2sd8[/media]

[virtuoso]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsIUK83CXF8[/media]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F03hSknNCLs[/media]

[virtuoso]

Normal speed:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moPCuMq02gI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moPCuMq02gI[/url]

[jblacoustics]

Virtuoso,

How do you do the pitch elbow even with a slowed down swing?

Excellent swing btw...

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1365186398' post='6768993']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1365182717' post='6768593']
Hey ajc, I think those a great points about letting go and just playing by feel.

What do you think are good indicators that someone should stop trying new things in their swing? How can a person tell when they've reached that point of diminishing returns?
[/quote]

I read a great book about the process of becoming a so called master and it made very interesting and difinitive points. The one that sticks out most in my mind is that learning curve of a master. It doesn't look like anything one would expect. Typically, it is thought that the learning curve starts out flat and then somewhere at the end it spikes up veritically, well apparently that's not the case at all....at least not when it comes to the type of physical and mental skills needed to become an expert at activities like golf.

Without boring you, the spikes are very small at first and frequent, and as you progress they get bigger/higher but that's always preceded by a longer flatline than the one before. Each new spike is also followed by a drop to a spot lower than the current spike, but higher than the previous flat line. In other words, you land somewhere in between the old line, and the new line. As you become more and more of an expert the flat parts are longer and longer. That doesn't mean you're not learning, but rather it's more of an incubation process.

Now, taking all that into consideration, what happens when you constantly tinker - in particular the better player - is that you never get past the certain points because you never allow yourself to reach those drawn out, highly coveted spikes that follow longer and longer flat learning periods. Think of it like this, when you switch what you're working on without getting to that coveted spike, you not only lose focus on that skill, you also revert to old habits. If you stop making changes based on visual feedback/video, you brain is forced to rely on feel - and feel is where the expert makes progress...a feedback loop (video, mirror etc) is necessary to establish fundamentals, but the expert relies on feel and ball flight to master his craft, not visual feedback.
[/quote]

good stuff - what's the book? Mastery?

[ajc57]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1366123938' post='6856471']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1365186398' post='6768993']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1365182717' post='6768593']
Hey ajc, I think those a great points about letting go and just playing by feel.

What do you think are good indicators that someone should stop trying new things in their swing? How can a person tell when they've reached that point of diminishing returns?
[/quote]

I read a great book about the process of becoming a so called master and it made very interesting and difinitive points. The one that sticks out most in my mind is that learning curve of a master. It doesn't look like anything one would expect. Typically, it is thought that the learning curve starts out flat and then somewhere at the end it spikes up veritically, well apparently that's not the case at all....at least not when it comes to the type of physical and mental skills needed to become an expert at activities like golf.

Without boring you, the spikes are very small at first and frequent, and as you progress they get bigger/higher but that's always preceded by a longer flatline than the one before. Each new spike is also followed by a drop to a spot lower than the current spike, but higher than the previous flat line. In other words, you land somewhere in between the old line, and the new line. As you become more and more of an expert the flat parts are longer and longer. That doesn't mean you're not learning, but rather it's more of an incubation process.

Now, taking all that into consideration, what happens when you constantly tinker - in particular the better player - is that you never get past the certain points because you never allow yourself to reach those drawn out, highly coveted spikes that follow longer and longer flat learning periods. Think of it like this, when you switch what you're working on without getting to that coveted spike, you not only lose focus on that skill, you also revert to old habits. If you stop making changes based on visual feedback/video, you brain is forced to rely on feel - and feel is where the expert makes progress...a feedback loop (video, mirror etc) is necessary to establish fundamentals, but the expert relies on feel and ball flight to master his craft, not visual feedback.
[/quote]

good stuff - what's the book? Mastery?
[/quote]

Yeap. What stood out for me was the concept that at some point you have to let go and let your work do the thinking for you. Classic Hogan.

[tylerdurden]

Yeah I love that book. I read it a while back. Need to pick it back up again. I've kind of experienced what you described as well too. Just practice through the rough spots and here and there you get flashes of insight where tremendous progress is made. Studying Hogan and seeing iteach and Slicefixer accelerated that process for me for sure though. But things that I learned from them or noticed from Hogan randomly kind of pop up in my practice seasons now and they seem to fit (whereas before I'd try to do them and it wouldn't fit at all).

[ajc57]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1366134486' post='6858007']
Yeah I love that book. I read it a while back. Need to pick it back up again. I've kind of experienced what you described as well too. Just practice through the rough spots and here and there you get flashes of insight where tremendous progress is made. Studying Hogan and seeing iteach and Slicefixer accelerated that process for me for sure though. But things that I learned from them or noticed from Hogan randomly kind of pop up in my practice seasons now and they seem to fit (whereas before I'd try to do them and it wouldn't fit at all).
[/quote]

I've never taken a lesson but that's only because I find that you learn more from going down the wrong path, than you do the right one (the book states this over and over)...with the obvious caveat that you eventually have to find your way back to the right moves, albeit with more perspective. I have swings from when I first started that I look at now and I can tell I was doing a lot right, but because I didn't know what the altenative aka "the wrong way" was - the latter would creep into my swing without me even knowing it, usually when I was free wheeling it...

They say golf is just like life and that rings specially true in this regard, having failed at certain technique or move helps infinitely more than being fed the right pieces, IMO. Kinda like when your parents shelter you your whole life but the minute you're on your own, you come crashing down because you don't have them to guide you in the right direction anymore. Sam Snead actually spoke at length about how teaching yourself is the best way to prepare for tournament play.

Btw, don't take it the wrong way about taking lessons, cause obviously it's bringing you more joy and I'm sure you've saved time doing so...just not my MO

[virtuoso]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7CXsfCO6l0[/media]

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1366144852' post='6859353']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1366134486' post='6858007']
Yeah I love that book. I read it a while back. Need to pick it back up again. I've kind of experienced what you described as well too. Just practice through the rough spots and here and there you get flashes of insight where tremendous progress is made. Studying Hogan and seeing iteach and Slicefixer accelerated that process for me for sure though. But things that I learned from them or noticed from Hogan randomly kind of pop up in my practice seasons now and they seem to fit (whereas before I'd try to do them and it wouldn't fit at all).
[/quote]

I've never taken a lesson but that's only because I find that you learn more from going down the wrong path, than you do the right one (the book states this over and over)...with the obvious caveat that you eventually have to find your way back to the right moves, albeit with more perspective. I have swings from when I first started that I look at now and I can tell I was doing a lot right, but because I didn't know what the altenative aka "the wrong way" was - the latter would creep into my swing without me even knowing it, usually when I was free wheeling it...

They say golf is just like life and that rings specially true in this regard, having failed at certain technique or move helps infinitely more than being fed the right pieces, IMO. Kinda like when your parents shelter you your whole life but the minute you're on your own, you come crashing down because you don't have them to guide you in the right direction anymore. Sam Snead actually spoke at length about how teaching yourself is the best way to prepare for tournament play.

Btw, don't take it the wrong way about taking lessons, cause obviously it's bringing you more joy and I'm sure you've saved time doing so...just not my MO
[/quote]

I understand. IMO golf is hard enough. Mistakes are inevitable with or without even the best instruction. Even Hogan and numerous influences throughout his childhood and early in his career. I figured out stuff on my own and with instructors too. Instructors don't figure it out for you. They just kick you on the right path so you can figure it out quicker (like you said) which is invaluable IMO because I want to get as good as possible and steepening the learning curve helps do that IMO.

[tembolo1284]

I like this move!