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Greatest male player ever


tstephen

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[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1380560200' post='7932229']
I don't feel the fields deeper today, and I really doubt it was even close for the first half of Tiger's career.

I can't remember where I read it, but it sent something like...

pit the top 50 today against the top 50 yesterday. Today would win.

pit the top 10 today against the top 10 yesterday, it would be a masacre, today wouldn't come close.
[/quote]

I doubt that being one day older would hurt their game that much.

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The strength of the field argument is flawed. Golf isn't boxing.

In boxing, the strength of your competition is incredibly important because it's a one on one competition. So if you want to be known as an all-time great, but you lose to Buster Douglas, who never did anything important before or after the fight, your case is weakened. Either, for one night, Buster was the best boxer the world has ever known, but never repeated the feat again, or maybe the person who lost to Buster isn't as good as everyone thought.

That's not true in golf. You have to beat the entire field in golf. The field may include Tom Watson and Arnold Palmer, but it may also include Tommy Aaron and Charles Coody. You still have to beat them all to win the title. And if Tommy Aaron happens to golf better than everyone that weekend, then he wins the title.

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For the people that try and use the strength of field argument in tigers favour are kidding themselves on. When tiger was filling his boots early on in his career, golf had been at an all time low and add to that the tiger proofing of the golf courses, which all it achieved was removing 99% of his competitors. I wonder how many more majors Jack would have won had he been afforded that kind of luxury

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[quote name='Finbarr Saunders' timestamp='1380580612' post='7934009']
For the people that try and use the strength of field argument in tigers favour are kidding themselves on. When tiger was filling his boots early on in his career, golf had been at an all time low and add to that the tiger proofing of the golf courses, which all it achieved was removing 99% of his competitors. I wonder how many more majors Jack would have won had he been afforded that kind of luxury
[/quote]

Disagree.

The fact that Jack came in 2nd so many times points to lesser competition

And I have heard it argued that Watson would have had a more impressive career had he not run into superior competition. Bigger talent pools, deeper talent pools.

There is a reason why you see guys who played with Jack

Like Trevino and Watson say that perhaps or certainly

Tiger is better.

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[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1380583996' post='7934269']
Because Tiger's peak was better. Show me footage where someone says career.
[/quote]

You know what would be cool?

A montage of Jack's winning putts/winning each of his majors.

Must be bizarre for anybody on tour now to think that is remotely possible.

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Tiger has made the putts. The old/young Tiger. It sure will be interesting if Tiger has a putt to tie in a major again. There's a lot of doubt there now in the new/old Tiger. That's why he plays so well at Bay Hill, Muirfield Village and Firestone. It is like us going out and hitting the same putt for hours at our home course on those greens for Tiger. That is his genius nevertheless, but I will have fun watching him on the new greens at Doral.

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[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_men"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_men's_major_championships_winning_golfers[/url]

here is a list that could be representative of the best players of all time. Who had to go up against these guys more often, Tiger or Jack?

Even having to face Watson half your career isenough on it's own IMO.

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[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1380594528' post='7935345']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_men"]http://en.wikipedia....winning_golfers[/url]

here is a list that could be representative of the best players of all time. Who had to go up against these guys more often, Tiger or Jack?

Even having to face Watson half your career isenough on it's own IMO.
[/quote]Tiger Woods has competed against Tom Watson every single time he's played at The Masters and every British Open Tiger has played at except 2. In contrast, Watson didn't play the first dozen or so Masters etc. that Jack competed in.

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[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1380586639' post='7934533']
Tiger has made the putts. The old/young Tiger. It sure will be interesting if Tiger has a putt to tie in a major again. There's a lot of doubt there now in the new/old Tiger. That's why he plays so well at Bay Hill, Muirfield Village and Firestone. It is like us going out and hitting the same putt for hours at our home course on those greens for Tiger.
[/quote]

No, it's like us going out and playing a course that we only play one week per year. None of those courses is Tiger's home course. None of those courses have ever been Tiger's home course.

And I don't see you complaining about Jack winning six times at Augusta, over fields that were sometimes smaller than a WGC, even counting all the amateurs and old timers.

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[quote name='Brock Savage' timestamp='1380597297' post='7935583']
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1380586639' post='7934533']
Tiger has made the putts. The old/young Tiger. It sure will be interesting if Tiger has a putt to tie in a major again. There's a lot of doubt there now in the new/old Tiger. That's why he plays so well at Bay Hill, Muirfield Village and Firestone. It is like us going out and hitting the same putt for hours at our home course on those greens for Tiger.
[/quote]

No, it's like us going out and playing a course that we only play one week per year. None of those courses is Tiger's home course. None of those courses have ever been Tiger's home course.

And I don't see you complaining about Jack winning six times at Augusta, over fields that were sometimes smaller than a WGC, even counting all the amateurs and old timers.
[/quote]

I did say Augusta was a home course for Jack. I was complementing Tiger's genius as Hank Haney said that Tiger has the most incredible built in green memorization. But you are so Tiger-defensive that you don't know a complement when you see it. He clearly does not have the same confidence on greens which he is not familiar. If you can't see that you are way too biased.

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[quote name='Guia' timestamp='1380512735' post='7930315']
I don't think that the Champions Tour is legit. These guys are past their prime, to most of the players
it is just a buddies tour. Their Majors materialized out of the clear blue sky with no tradition.
I watched these players in their prime, now they are a shadow.
I enjoy watching the LPGA more.
[/quote]

Really? The Senior PGA dates back to 1937. Vardon almost won The US Open at 50. When he was 61, Snead nearly took The LA Open at Riviera where Jack and Tiger have both suffer from The Hogan Curse, winless in many attempts. We all know about Watson and Norman. If anything The Champions Tour has saved The PGA tour from these guys being around on a regular basis schooling Tiger's deep fields and sending them into the local pro-shops of America.

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[quote name='gusmahler' timestamp='1380595912' post='7935483']
[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1380594528' post='7935345']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_men"]http://en.wikipedia....winning_golfers[/url]

here is a list that could be representative of the best players of all time. Who had to go up against these guys more often, Tiger or Jack?

Even having to face Watson half your career isenough on it's own IMO.
[/quote]Tiger Woods has competed against Tom Watson every single time he's played at The Masters and every British Open Tiger has played at except 2. In contrast, Watson didn't play the first dozen or so Masters etc. that Jack competed in.
[/quote]

You aren't seriously suggesting that Tiger has faced more competition from Tom Watson than Jack did?

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[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1380598292' post='7935655']
[quote name='Brock Savage' timestamp='1380597297' post='7935583']
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1380586639' post='7934533']
Tiger has made the putts. The old/young Tiger. It sure will be interesting if Tiger has a putt to tie in a major again. There's a lot of doubt there now in the new/old Tiger. That's why he plays so well at Bay Hill, Muirfield Village and Firestone. It is like us going out and hitting the same putt for hours at our home course on those greens for Tiger.
[/quote]

No, it's like us going out and playing a course that we only play one week per year. None of those courses is Tiger's home course. None of those courses have ever been Tiger's home course.

And I don't see you complaining about Jack winning six times at Augusta, over fields that were sometimes smaller than a WGC, even counting all the amateurs and old timers.
[/quote]

I did say Augusta was a home course for Jack. I was complementing Tiger's genius as Hank Haney said that Tiger has the most incredible built in green memorization. But you are so Tiger-defensive that you don't know a complement when you see it. He clearly does not have the same confidence on greens which he is not familiar. If you can't see that you are way too biased.
[/quote]

Right. Someone who has written 500+ Tiger-bashing posts in one thread is complimenting him when you repeat the stale canard about him only being able to win on a few courses.

Tiger's putting was streaky all year. He had some of his worst weeks at Augusta and Muirfield, courses which by your theory he should have known with his eyes closed. He won five times because he was the best all around player on tour, in the top 25 in total driving, GIR, and sand saves, as well as putting.

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[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1380594528' post='7935345']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_men"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_men's_major_championships_winning_golfers[/url]

here is a list that could be representative of the best players of all time. Who had to go up against these guys more often, Tiger or Jack?

Even having to face Watson half your career isenough on it's own IMO.
[/quote]

And tiger has had to compete against Phil, who has similar career numbers to Watson.

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[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1380599766' post='7935759']
[quote name='gusmahler' timestamp='1380595912' post='7935483']
[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1380594528' post='7935345']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_men"]http://en.wikipedia....winning_golfers[/url]

here is a list that could be representative of the best players of all time. Who had to go up against these guys more often, Tiger or Jack?

Even having to face Watson half your career isenough on it's own IMO.
[/quote]Tiger Woods has competed against Tom Watson every single time he's played at The Masters and every British Open Tiger has played at except 2. In contrast, Watson didn't play the first dozen or so Masters etc. that Jack competed in.
[/quote]

You aren't seriously suggesting that Tiger has faced more competition from Tom Watson than Jack did?
[/quote]

No, he's just pointing out that the idea of Jack having to fight off Palmer and Watson every week is nonsense. Arnie won his last major in 1964, and Tom won his first in 1975.

Jack was 35 years old when Watson won his first major, the same age Tiger was when Rory won his first. So Watson was Jack's Rory, not his Phil.

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[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1380599766' post='7935759']
[quote name='gusmahler' timestamp='1380595912' post='7935483']
[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1380594528' post='7935345']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_men"]http://en.wikipedia....winning_golfers[/url]

here is a list that could be representative of the best players of all time. Who had to go up against these guys more often, Tiger or Jack?

Even having to face Watson half your career isenough on it's own IMO.
[/quote]Tiger Woods has competed against Tom Watson every single time he's played at The Masters and every British Open Tiger has played at except 2. In contrast, Watson didn't play the first dozen or so Masters etc. that Jack competed in.
[/quote]

You aren't seriously suggesting that Tiger has faced more competition from Tom Watson than Jack did?
[/quote]

I know, that was another pre-school post from someone without much knowledge or a bad sense of humor.

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[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1380601362' post='7935893']
[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1380594528' post='7935345']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_men"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_men's_major_championships_winning_golfers[/url]

here is a list that could be representative of the best players of all time. Who had to go up against these guys more often, Tiger or Jack?

Even having to face Watson half your career isenough on it's own IMO.
[/quote]

And tiger has had to compete against Phil, who has similar career numbers to Watson.
[/quote]

No way, NOT ACCORDING TO BROCK, Vardons, Money Titles, POTY ...Watson 14 and Phil 0.
If you come over to my camp regarding majors and top 3 performance in majors it would be 8 to 5.
AND Phil ahead of Watson in top 3s 20 to 18.

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TSTEPHEN: The Senior PGA Championship Tournament has been around since 1937, but not the Championship
Tour. The Senior PGA Championship, founded in 1937, was for many years the only high-profile tournament for golfers over 50. The idea for a senior tour grew out of a highly successful event in 1978, the Legends of Golf, which featured competition between two-member teams of some of the greatest older golfers of that day. The tour was formally established in 1980 and was known as the Senior PGA Tour until October 2002.

I attended the 1978 Senior Event and had a good time watching the great players of yesterday. To me
though that was a unique experience to see many players that were not fully exposed by TV in their
Heyday. IMO the Championship Tour is boring, I have seen them all at their best, and they are now well
past those days. The courses they play are set up easier and most of them are but faded champions.
They are boring, boring, boring.

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[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1380603587' post='7935987']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1380601362' post='7935893']
[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1380594528' post='7935345']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_men"]http://en.wikipedia....winning_golfers[/url]

here is a list that could be representative of the best players of all time. Who had to go up against these guys more often, Tiger or Jack?

Even having to face Watson half your career isenough on it's own IMO.
[/quote]

And tiger has had to compete against Phil, who has similar career numbers to Watson.
[/quote]

No way, NOT ACCORDING TO BROCK, Vardons, Money Titles, POTY ...Watson 14 and Phil 0.
[/quote]

Correct. Watson was the best player in the world for several years. Phil was never the best player in the world for even one season. I don't hold it against him that he couldn't do it when Tiger was playing well, but he had over ten years where Tiger was either injured, slumping, or still an amateur. That's why Watson is in my all time top 5, and Phil is somewhere in the second ten.

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[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1380599766' post='7935759']
[quote name='gusmahler' timestamp='1380595912' post='7935483']
[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1380594528' post='7935345']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_men"]http://en.wikipedia....winning_golfers[/url]

here is a list that could be representative of the best players of all time. Who had to go up against these guys more often, Tiger or Jack?

Even having to face Watson half your career isenough on it's own IMO.
[/quote]Tiger Woods has competed against Tom Watson every single time he's played at The Masters and every British Open Tiger has played at except 2. In contrast, Watson didn't play the first dozen or so Masters etc. that Jack competed in.
[/quote]

You aren't seriously suggesting that Tiger has faced more competition from Tom Watson than Jack did?
[/quote]It was a joke.

But the part about Jack not competing against Watson is true. The first year Watson competed in all 4 majors was 1975, which was the 14th time Jack competed in all 4. People seem to forget that fact and assume their careers overlapped a lot more than they actually did.

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The guy to make a relative Tiger to Phil comparison with Jack is not Watson, Trevino, or Palmer. It is Gary Player. Player is just over 4 years older than Jack and Phil just a little more than 5 years older than Tiger. Brock's recipe for greatness Player 1, Phil 0 & my recipe Player 9, Phil 5, but top 3s Phil 20, Gary 18.

Biggest difference: Phil #2 in Tiger's era and Player #4 in Jack's era.

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[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1380674313' post='7940077']
The guy to make a relative Tiger to Phil comparison with Jack is not Watson, Trevino, or Palmer. It is Gary Player. Player is just over 4 years older than Jack and Phil just a little more than 5 years older than Tiger. Brock's recipe for greatness Player 1, Phil 0 & my recipe Player 9, Phil 5, but top 3s Phil 20, Gary 18.

Biggest difference: Phil #2 in Tiger's era and Player #4 in Jack's era.
[/quote]

No, the biggest difference is that there are thousands of people trying to play on the PGA Tour, which results in getting the BEST players from top to bottom. In Jack's era there were a few hundred going to q school and the international pool was very small compared to what we have now.
In Jack's era he had to compete against a smaller talent pool of good players, which results in more wins for the top players.

Can you please explain how the tour was able to find better golfers, from the top of the money list to the bottom of the money list, from a smaller pool of golfers? There is not one other sport that can do that, but somehow pro golf did?

Are you claiming that the pga tour was able to identify the best 100 golfers in the world from a pool of several hundred, but in today's game they can't even though they are pulling from a pool of 5000?

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[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1380675159' post='7940133']
Are you claiming that the pga tour was able to identify the best 100 golfers in the world from a pool of several hundred, but in today's game they can't even though they are pulling from a pool of 5000?
[/quote]

Not only that, but golf is the only sport where the athletes have gotten worse over the last 50 years. Today's college football teams from Alabama or Oregon could beat the 1972 Miami Dolphins; high school girls can beat the times of men who won Gold Medals for swimming in the 1964 Olympics; but somehow, golfers are not as good today as they were in the 60's.

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Being a great golfer is like being a great artist. Composers, painters, sculptors, and golfers are in the same class. Better yet Brock, since you are a literary scholar, are there also so many more great writers today?

I would still start any MLB team today with Mays, Mantle, and Clemente in the outfield and Koufax, Gibson, Ryan, and Seaver as my starting rotation. I could complete the team with whatever players were left in today's draft and I am going to The World Series.

Football players are so much bigger and faster today. Let me ask a 2 year old why that is true?

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[quote name='Brock Savage' timestamp='1380675630' post='7940169']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1380675159' post='7940133']
Are you claiming that the pga tour was able to identify the best 100 golfers in the world from a pool of several hundred, but in today's game they can't even though they are pulling from a pool of 5000?
[/quote]

Not only that, but golf is the only sport where the athletes have gotten worse over the last 50 years. Today's college football teams from Alabama or Oregon could beat the 1972 Miami Dolphins; high school girls can beat the times of men who won Gold Medals for swimming in the 1964 Olympics; but somehow, golfers are not as good today as they were in the 60's.
[/quote]

My nephew was the fastest in NorCal swimming. Have you looked at The world records lately Brock? I have not, but I can tell you that a lot of records will be stuck in the year 2009 because of technology(the body suits).

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[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1380677667' post='7940383']
Being a great golfer is like being a great artist. Composers, painters, sculptors, and golfers are in the same class. Better yet Brock, since you are a literary scholar, are there also so many more great writers today?

I would still start any MLB team today with Mays, Mantle, and Clemente in the outfield and Koufax, Gibson, Ryan, and Seaver as my starting rotation. I could complete the team with whatever players were left in today's draft and I am going to The World Series.

Football players are so much bigger and faster today. Let me ask a 2 year old why that is true?
[/quote]

And do you think the rosters of major league baseball team were as strong top to bottom as they are now? Sure, there were some great players back then, but the rosters were nowhere near as strong as they are today. There were players who can dominate, but there was a huge talent drop off from the top players to the rest.

Just like in golf, there were some great players at the top during jack's era, but there were fewer players who had the potential to win. When there are fewer players who have the potential to win, then the top players end up winning more.

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