Hogan's 13 spikes-why?

[AM19]

So I've been thinking about Hogan's transition lately, and I'm wondering if Hogan's extra spike has something to do with it. In 5L, there is some mention of restricting the hips in the backswing. However, I don't think Hogan meant attempt to freeze them in place. To some degree, it is preset at setup with the slightly kicked in right knee, but unless the right foot stays perfectly in place this alone will not restrict the hips, hence the extra spike.

 

The relevance of this to the transition is how Hogan describes it in 5L-as just turning the hips. Now if your right foot moves and you over rotate, this advice will lead to a spin out. However, if your right foot grips the ground, as Hogan's extra spike facilitated, the momentum you have generated in turning back will be redirected, since the right foot does not allow it to turn anymore. Therefore the hips, unable to go any further around or laterally away from the ball due to the right foot, shift forward, and then you just need to turn. This also fits with Hogan's transition appearing to occur almost in his backswing.

 

Thoughts?

[ajc57]

[quote name='AM19' timestamp='1371493345' post='7264830']
So I've been thinking about Hogan's transition lately, and I'm wondering if Hogan's extra spike has something to do with it. In 5L, there is some mention of restricting the hips in the backswing. However, I don't think Hogan meant attempt to freeze them in place. To some degree, it is preset at setup with the slightly kicked in right knee, but unless the right foot stays perfectly in place this alone will not restrict the hips, hence the extra spike.

The relevance of this to the transition is how Hogan describes it in 5L-as just turning the hips. Now if your right foot moves and you over rotate, this advice will lead to a spin out. However, if your right foot grips the ground, as Hogan's extra spike facilitated, the momentum you have generated in turning back will be redirected, since the right foot does not allow it to turn anymore. Therefore the hips, unable to go any further around or laterally away from the ball due to the right foot, shift forward, and then you just need to turn. This also fits with Hogan's transition appearing to occur almost in his backswing.

Thoughts?
[/quote]

This may or may not be, but I guarantee you one thing - if you think about this while you swing - you will tense up.

[Titleist87]

Because 13 hurt more than 12 when he would walk all over the competition.

[XYB34A]

sounds like you have never really played that much with metal spikes. I hate to admit I am in my 50s, but I am. I played with metal spikes from age 13 till I was in my middle to late 30s the difference in the amount of traction u get in your golf swing with metal spikes vs soft spikes is a huge difference if people could and would pick up their feet then metal would have never gone away

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='justaman5' timestamp='1371562812' post='7271134']
sounds like you have never really played that much with metal spikes. I hate to admit I am in my 50s, but I am. I played with metal spikes from age 13 till I was in my middle to late 30s the difference in the amount of traction u get in your golf swing with metal spikes vs soft spikes is a huge difference if people could and would pick up their feet then metal would have never gone away
[/quote]

Yes. I hit the ball considerably further with metal. Esp the long metal spikes. NEVER ever slip! But hard to walk on anything but grass haha.

[ej002]

I miss metal spikes. For a while Nike had little stubs that protruded outward and were positioned near the outside of the balls of the feet. There were a lot of them also. Those were actually pretty good. I have no idea how people play with those stupid echos. No idea.

[dairic]

What do you guys think of Janzen getting the boot?

[ajc57]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1371572402' post='7272868']
What do you guys think of Janzen getting the boot?
[/quote]

I think it was the right move - whether they give you an advantage or not can be argued - but I can't imagine the man was wearing them for anything other than with the intent of getting an advantage over the field. Of course it only reveal his desperation, he knew his game wasn't up to par, literally (75)

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1371564102' post='7271280']
I miss metal spikes. For a while Nike had little stubs that protruded outward and were positioned near the outside of the balls of the feet. There were a lot of them also. Those were actually pretty good. I have no idea how people play with those stupid echos. No idea.
[/quote]

I play them and they are insanely comfortable, especially the biom hybrids. As long as I don't get jumpy* with them I'm fine. If anything I think it might encourage good footwork. Although it might make me quiet my pivot down a little more than ideal sometimes.

[AM19]

Admittedly by the time I started playing the vast majority of shoes were not sold with metal spikes so I've never had the opportunity to play in a pair, but I have always wondered why Hogan considered an extra spike necessary if the stability was that much better with metal spikes. Were they actually banned for any other reason than the damage to greens? Any other ideas why Hogan would have done this?

[dairic]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1371573459' post='7273020']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1371572402' post='7272868']
What do you guys think of Janzen getting the boot?
[/quote]

I think it was the right move - whether they give you an advantage or not can be argued - but I can't imagine the man was wearing them for anything other than with the intent of getting an advantage over the field. Of course it only reveal his desperation, he knew his game wasn't up to par, literally (75)
[/quote]

I just think it's too bad that he got kicked out for wearing golf shoes at a golf tournament.

[dairic]

[quote name='AM19' timestamp='1371576009' post='7273512']
Admittedly by the time I started playing the vast majority of shoes were not sold with metal spikes so I've never had the opportunity to play in a pair, but I have always wondered why Hogan considered an extra spike necessary if the stability was that much better with metal spikes. Were they actually banned for any other reason than the damage to greens? Any other ideas why Hogan would have done this?
[/quote]

I imagine that the flatter your swing gets the more horizontal ground forces get. This would require a stronger connection with the ground.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1371576703' post='7273614']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1371573459' post='7273020']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1371572402' post='7272868']
What do you guys think of Janzen getting the boot?
[/quote]

I think it was the right move - whether they give you an advantage or not can be argued - but I can't imagine the man was wearing them for anything other than with the intent of getting an advantage over the field. Of course it only reveal his desperation, he knew his game wasn't up to par, literally (75)
[/quote]

I just think it's too bad that he got the kicked out for wearing golf shoes at the golf tournament.
[/quote]

I think it's sad. Why would they allow metal in actual pga tour play but not in qualifying? Kinda dumb. Keep it consistent one way or the other and stick with it.

[ajc57]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1371579038' post='7274070']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1371576703' post='7273614']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1371573459' post='7273020']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1371572402' post='7272868']
What do you guys think of Janzen getting the boot?
[/quote]

I think it was the right move - whether they give you an advantage or not can be argued - but I can't imagine the man was wearing them for anything other than with the intent of getting an advantage over the field. Of course it only reveal his desperation, he knew his game wasn't up to par, literally (75)
[/quote]

I just think it's too bad that he got the kicked out for wearing golf shoes at the golf tournament.
[/quote]

I think it's sad. Why would they allow metal in actual pga tour play but not in qualifying? Kinda dumb. Keep it consistent one way or the other and stick with it.
[/quote]

Good point, but it's not really about that to the officials. We can def argue that it's a ridiculous rule, but it was a rule nonetheless and if they don't enforce it, well we know how that goes...

[tsmithers]

Not sure if this helps or is true but from the book, "The Match":

"Crafted by a master London boot maker, the sole of each shoe included an extra cleat just behind the ball of the foot, an innovation Hogan had asked for to help stay connected to the ground throughout his aggressive swing."

[KYMAR]

[quote name='AM19' timestamp='1371576009' post='7273512']
Admittedly by the time I started playing the vast majority of shoes were not sold with metal spikes so I've never had the opportunity to play in a pair, but I have always wondered why Hogan considered an extra spike necessary if the stability was that much better with metal spikes. Were they actually banned for any other reason than the damage to greens? Any other ideas why Hogan would have done this?
[/quote]

Damage to the greens was part of the reason damage to flooring at clubhouses is probably a bigger reason.

[ej002]

I actually think the new spikes damage the greens more, there is a larger surface area on a soft spike, also old spikes served the dual purpose of aerification.

[tembolo1284]

A shame metal got removed.

[larrybud]

Spikes were never long enough to have any effect on aeration. They were terrible on the greens, even if people walked correctly.

Just think of hundreds thousands (yes, true) of holes in a 6' diameter around the cup, every single day.

Read the USGA study from 1983

http://www.usga.org/course_care/articles/other/spikes/Golf-Shoe-Study-II/

[farmer]

Also, fairways and tees were not groomed to standards we see today. He may have needed the extra traction in the longer grass. As for Janzen, he knew the rule (or should have), he should have followed the rule.

[tembolo1284]

I miss metal spikes.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='AM19' timestamp='1371493345' post='7264830']
So I've been thinking about Hogan's transition lately, and I'm wondering if Hogan's extra spike has something to do with it. In 5L, there is some mention of restricting the hips in the backswing. However, I don't think Hogan meant attempt to freeze them in place. To some degree, it is preset at setup with the slightly kicked in right knee, but unless the right foot stays perfectly in place this alone will not restrict the hips, hence the extra spike.

The relevance of this to the transition is how Hogan describes it in 5L-as just turning the hips. Now if your right foot moves and you over rotate, this advice will lead to a spin out. However, if your right foot grips the ground, as Hogan's extra spike facilitated, the momentum you have generated in turning back will be redirected, since the right foot does not allow it to turn anymore. Therefore the hips, unable to go any further around or laterally away from the ball due to the right foot, shift forward, and then you just need to turn. This also fits with Hogan's transition appearing to occur almost in his backswing.

Thoughts?
[/quote]

Hogan is no different than other athletes, even amateur golfers. We all have quirks and or degrees of superstition. One thing I am reasonably confident in, one extra spike didn't make the difference between Hogan's success and the lesser success of those that didn't have the extra spike.

[AM19]

This is a main reason I don't post too much- my theories often change daily so whilst I still think some of what I said has merit, maybe one extra spike cant cause all of those things lol

I do wonder if the switch away from metal has affected players swings through grip differences-I know the abs guys talk a lot about ground forces, although I don't profess to understand them well, surely less traction would influence the overall motion if these forces are important?

[tembolo1284]

I'd take extra spikes any day. Esp on gooey turf.

[hoganfan924]

I think it was probably the location of the extra spike that counted most. Hogan (as with many players with very strong pivots) was prone to having the right foot slip (as happened on 18 tee at Olympic against Fleck). I can't find an image, but my recollection is that the extra spike was right under the ball of the big toe, the spot where you would twist your foot as if putting out a cigarette. So it would be the spot that his foot would pivot around in the early downswing. Located there, it would be less likely to tear the turf and would hold it's position, IMO.

I personally miss metal spikes.

[dairic]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1372171095' post='7320316']
I think it was probably the location of the extra spike that counted most. Hogan (as with many players with very strong pivots) was prone to having the right foot slip (as happened on 18 tee at Olympic against Fleck). I can't find an image, but my recollection is that the extra spike was right under the ball of the big toe, the spot where you would twist your foot as if putting out a cigarette. So it would be the spot that his foot would pivot around in the early downswing. Located there, it would be less likely to tear the turf and would hold it's position, IMO.

I personally miss metal spikes.
[/quote]

Here's an image which I believe is a bunch of Hogan stuff on display at Colonial.

[attachment=1750776:extra spike.jpg]

[tembolo1284]

that's sexy! So he had it on the left and right feet? That extra spike?

[jak_bot]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1372191857' post='7322734']
that's sexy! So he had it on the left and right feet? That extra spike?
[/quote]

Yes, he had them on both the right and left shoe. In some cases he had two extra spikes in each shoe. In the famous Merion picture, you can clearly see two extra spikes in the middle of the shoe.

[tembolo1284]

I also remember Venturi saying something about how on the inside of the right shoe the right side of the foot was higher than the left side. So Hogan kind of automatically had his right knee always kicked in. Almost like you are stepping on a ball with the outside of your right foot.

Is that true?

I tried to get an extra spike put in by a company that did this in Spain. Took them 3 months to tell me they couldn't do it in the end. I was so mad.

[rileyj]

It may have been 1 extra spike at one time but there was also a period where it was a whole extra row. Snead had the same thing. It's no secret, just "more traction is better".

http://persimmongolftoday.org/archives/1483