Oostie's arm swing?

[cardoustie]

[quote name='A.G.Blade' timestamp='1373454620' post='7423104']
De La Torre; arms do the down swing, body reacts
[/quote]

Also Jim Flick's methodology

[juststeve]

[quote name='haager831' timestamp='1373470183' post='7424492']
Hey JustSteve......Just Beat it...nobody cares about your Shakespeare references
[/quote]

Actually the literary reference was for Monte who strike me as a intelligent and cultured fellow. I didn't expect it to appeal to everyone. Pearls before swine is the expression. Hope that doesn't offend, its Biblical.

Steve

[haager831]

either way Steve, the slo mo swing clearly shows that Louie is starting down with the lower body whether or not he "feels" this

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1373470839' post='7424576']
Look guys, if the backswing coil is produced as a reaction to the swinging of the club back with the hands and arms, the body will uncoil as soon as the arms begin to move forward. As my own teacher would say, the body responds freely and immediately to the swinging of the club. In the words of another renowned teacher, Jim Flick, the swinging of the club turns the shoulders going back and going forward. This won't work if you are not relaxed and free. This won't work if you make a deliberate and artificial effort to turn going back. If you do that you need to make a deliberate and artificial effort to start down with the body. Works if you master it but totally unnecessary, as both Oosthuizen and Sam Snead attest. Both have said that the trigger for their downswing is in the arms, or in Snead's case the left hand. I take them at their word.

Steve
[/quote]
Don't move the goalposts Steve. No one is questioning the trigger. You insinuated that because he felt his arms were moving first, that actually was happening. That's not the case. A trigger and an actual sequence do not have to match.

[cardoustie]

I would also like to say that recently I have been working on this move myself and I was an upper body lunger / dipper at the ball and my misses were hooks. I was too steep and focused on holding the lag. Apparently some guys can over hold the lag as I have learned

No I feel like I stay tall, really stay behind it and release my hands and arms as fast as possible. Talk about an easy way to play golf. Makes it easy to clear left side

Ball is higher and straighter, though I have lost 5 yards on my irons due to flattening the attack angle

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='tngolf22' timestamp='1373470863' post='7424580']
[quote name='John Kreese' timestamp='1373470746' post='7424568']
Maybe just a case of "feel isn't real".
[/quote]

Exactly.
[/quote]

yes sir!

[Jetski]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1373484852' post='7426436']
[quote name='tngolf22' timestamp='1373470863' post='7424580']
[quote name='John Kreese' timestamp='1373470746' post='7424568']
Maybe just a case of "feel isn't real".
[/quote]

Exactly.
[/quote]

yes sir!
[/quote]

But surely feel is what is important? Real is irrelevant in the scheme of things. The trick, as Monte mentions, is getting the right feel to fit with a players natural tendency / counteract the key fault. Lots of people who can't play or teach worth a damn know the real sequence the body moves in.

Also, I enjoyed the Skakespearen aside.

[farmer]

Why is he up on his toes? Every time I see him, this bugs me. Not as bad as Laura Baugh, but still.

[juststeve]

[quote name='Jetski' timestamp='1373485161' post='7426466']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1373484852' post='7426436']
[quote name='tngolf22' timestamp='1373470863' post='7424580']
[quote name='John Kreese' timestamp='1373470746' post='7424568']
Maybe just a case of "feel isn't real".
[/quote]

Exactly.
[/quote]

yes sir!
[/quote]

But surely feel is what is important? Real is irrelevant in the scheme of things. The trick, as Monte mentions, is getting the right feel to fit with a players natural tendency / counteract the key fault. Lots of people who can't play or teach worth a damn know the real sequence the body moves in.

Also, I enjoyed the Skakespearen aside.
[/quote]

Excellent observation Jetski. I don't know how anyone can be expected to repeat something they don't feel.

Steve

[Scottk]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1373495215' post='7427606']
[quote name='Jetski' timestamp='1373485161' post='7426466']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1373484852' post='7426436']
[quote name='tngolf22' timestamp='1373470863' post='7424580']
[quote name='John Kreese' timestamp='1373470746' post='7424568']
Maybe just a case of "feel isn't real".
[/quote]

Exactly.
[/quote]

yes sir!
[/quote]

But surely feel is what is important? Real is irrelevant in the scheme of things. The trick, as Monte mentions, is getting the right feel to fit with a players natural tendency / counteract the key fault. Lots of people who can't play or teach worth a damn know the real sequence the body moves in.

Also, I enjoyed the Skakespearen aside.
[/quote]

Excellent observation Jetski. I don't know how anyone can be expected to repeat something they don't feel.

Steve
[/quote]

Steve: How exactly do you call Jetski's observation's excellent but criticize Monte for saying the exact same thing. I'm sure Shakespeare would have something to say about that.

[juststeve]

Scottk:

What I criticized Monte for was saying that Oosthuizen doesn't do what Oosthuizen says he is doing. I think Oosthuizenis in a better position to know what Oosthuizen is doing that either Monte or I for that matter. I didn't read Jetski as saying any such thing. In any event Monte says I misunderstood him which is good enough for me.

Now the ball is in your court. What would Shakespeare say about that?

Steve

[Jim Waldron]

When a tour pro talks about "swinging his arms faster" or "starting down with his arms sooner" he is NOT talking about how 99.9% of amateurs understand those two sentences. He is talking about un-coiling his shoulder girdle - the base of his Triangle - faster and/or earlier, to be in synch with his Core and his hips, ie not lagging too far behind in the sequence.


The average amateur interprets "swinging the arms" to mean actively moving the upper arms from the shoulder sockets, independently of the shoulder girdle, and across mid-line of the body - total arm disconnection and the Number One mechancial flaw in most golfer's swings.

See the Arm Swing Illusion for more detailed explanation.

Louis does not move his arms across mid-line until well after impact - and only from momentum from his pivot.

[virtuoso]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1373497177' post='7427786']
Scottk:

What I criticized Monte for was saying that Oosthuizen doesn't do what Oosthuizen says he is doing. I think Oosthuizenis in a better position to know what Oosthuizen is doing that either Monte or I for that matter. I didn't read Jetski as saying any such thing. In any event Monte says I misunderstood him which is good enough for me.

Now the ball is in your court. What would Shakespeare say about that?

Steve
[/quote]

Well, Shakespeare was a big fan of irony....so take your pick.

[shankarrific]

A swing, a swing, my kingdom for a golf swing!

[JustTheTips]

Feels are only important as long as they are working. When things stop working, you need to know what is real. For example if the body is getting ahead, the feel of starting with the arms might keep things in sync. In 6 months when the arms are getting ahead of the body, you need to be able to figure that out and switch to a feel where the body starts things up. If you have real data of good swings (imagine one of those 6 degree trackers with a balance plate. Most of us have to go to video) when things go bad you can compare you good swing to the bad ones and figure out what is messed up.


[quote name='Jetski' timestamp='1373485161' post='7426466']

But surely feel is what is important? Real is irrelevant in the scheme of things. The trick, as Monte mentions, is getting the right feel to fit with a players natural tendency / counteract the key fault. Lots of people who can't play or teach worth a damn know the real sequence the body moves in.

Also, I enjoyed the Skakespearen aside.
[/quote]

[pinhigh27]

Eventually you will learn that what top golfers say and what top golfers do are generally 2 completely different things.

[virtuoso]

[quote name='shankarrific' timestamp='1373506213' post='7428726']
A swing, a swing, my kingdom for a golf swing!
[/quote]

Or maybe, instead of being just ironic, it is slightly hypocritical for Monte to take issue with being misinterpreted, when he himself may have misinterpreted what oostie said. In that case, Shakespeare might say: "Few love to hear the sins they love to act."

On the other hand, if Monte means that, although Pro's are good, they don't necessarily know exactly what they actually do, then I would agree....and this whole post of mine would suggest that God has given me one face.....and I have made myself another.

[Dave D]

i think this article by Zach Johnson proves monte's and others' points. [url="http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2012-01/zach-johnson-downswing-drills"]http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2012-01/zach-johnson-downswing-drills[/url]

Here Zach says about the arms starting down and pulling the body, yet Johnson has one of the most pivot driven swings on tour. he probably has to have this feel to keep his arms infront of his strong pivot, if he didn't he'd get stuck all the time.

this feel for someone who has a very poor pivot will lead them to pulling the handle and getting in a whole world of trouble. feel isn't real.

[thug the bunny]

I like the way this thread turned out - lots of good discussion going on, Shakesperian controversies notwithstanding.

I like the talk about using feel to compensate for natural tendencies. It is my overall MO for playing the game. Over the years I have learned ball flight laws and what in my swing produces certain bad results, and I have compiled a short list of compensations to correct them. As has been said, these feel compensations might not actually be executed the way they feel because they are going counter to the thing they are correcting, and the two influences offset each other to some extent.

Now, to go a bit OT, has anyone else had the issue of a feel compensation working intitally, but then over time it goes too far producing another unwanted result, at which point you have to introduce an opposite compensation?

[Stryker]

[quote name='davekzg' timestamp='1373555201' post='7431708']
i think this article by Zach Johnson proves monte's and others' points. [url="http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2012-01/zach-johnson-downswing-drills"]http://www.golfdiges...ownswing-drills[/url]

Here Zach says about the arms starting down and pulling the body, yet Johnson has one of the most pivot driven swings on tour. he probably has to have this feel to keep his arms infront of his strong pivot, if he didn't he'd get stuck all the time.

this feel for someone who has a very poor pivot will lead them to pulling the handle and getting in a whole world of trouble. feel isn't real.
[/quote]

I wonder how he achieves this without breaking his triangle at the top and moving the hands across mid line.

[tngolf22]

Ok great thread so far.

So if I've been focused on a pivot-driven swing (9-3 drills, ET, Jim Waldron threads, Arm Swing Illusion thread), and for the last few years have been fairly successful with it, is it fair to say I'm not doing what I feel? I say this because I can still miss the ball both ways and I still hit the ball further AND higher when I feel like I'm taking the arms hands way up high and just slinging the hell out of it with my hands. I also play just as well. I'm wondering if my swing was in synch while playing well either way and it's just a matter of I'm not doing what I'm feeling. Maybe if I just keep doing what works I shouldn't worry about it.

[virtuoso]

[quote name='tngolf22' timestamp='1373556903' post='7431944'] Maybe if I just keep doing what works I shouldn't worry about it. [/quote]

Oh for goodness sake, don't do that. If we all did that, the entire GolfWRX Instruction Academy would vanish into thin air.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='tngolf22' timestamp='1373556903' post='7431944']
Ok great thread so far.

So if I've been focused on a pivot-driven swing (9-3 drills, ET, Jim Waldron threads, Arm Swing Illusion thread), and for the last few years have been fairly successful with it, is it fair to say I'm not doing what I feel? I say this because I can still miss the ball both ways and I still hit the ball further AND higher when I feel like I'm taking the arms hands way up high and just slinging the hell out of it with my hands. I also play just as well. I'm wondering if my swing was in synch while playing well either way and it's just a matter of I'm not doing what I'm feeling. Maybe if I just keep doing what works I shouldn't worry about it.
[/quote]

There is a clear and simple answer: you need to tape your swing on a regular basis so that you can verify for yourself whether or not your body and club are actually doing what you intend/feel them to be doing. The results are quite often shocking.

I had a 12 handicap student about 15 years ago come to see me and when I asked him to hit some balls for me, he said to me "Which of my three swings should I use? My Nicklaus swing, my Trevino swing or my Hogan swing?" I was kind of stunned and said "You really have three swings? Pretty tough to just master one, how have you managed to learn three?" So he showed me all "three" swings.....ZERO DIFFERENCE. He did not believe me when I told him, so I taped him doing all "three" swings, and the look on his face was pricelsss when he saw the video. The weirdest part was - his actual swing was nothing like either of those pros swings.

So often I read many posts on this forum wherein the poster is going on and on about what he thinks or feels he is doing in this golf swing, AS IF THE INTENTION TO DO IT IS THE SAME THING AS ACTUALLY DOING IT. And of course - they are nowhere near the same thing. Analytical type personatlites seem to be the most prone to this kind of self-deception.

Intention is the Feed Forward circuit in the brain/body system. The problem is, most average golfers have a very under-developed Feed Forward circuit, ie their body seldom does what their conscious mind is telling the body to do, at normal swing speeds. Even sometimes at slow motion, the body does something entirely different.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1373558674' post='7432176']
[quote name='tngolf22' timestamp='1373556903' post='7431944']
Ok great thread so far.

So if I've been focused on a pivot-driven swing (9-3 drills, ET, Jim Waldron threads, Arm Swing Illusion thread), and for the last few years have been fairly successful with it, is it fair to say I'm not doing what I feel? I say this because I can still miss the ball both ways and I still hit the ball further AND higher when I feel like I'm taking the arms hands way up high and just slinging the hell out of it with my hands. I also play just as well. I'm wondering if my swing was in synch while playing well either way and it's just a matter of I'm not doing what I'm feeling. Maybe if I just keep doing what works I shouldn't worry about it.
[/quote]

There is a clear and simple answer: you need to tape your swing on a regular basis so that you can verify for yourself whether or not your body and club are actually doing what you intend/feel them to be doing. The results are quite often shocking.

I had a 12 handicap student about 15 years ago come to see me and when I asked him to hit some balls for me, he said to me "Which of my three swings should I use? My Nicklaus swing, my Trevino swing or my Hogan swing?" I was kind of stunned and said "You really have three swings? Pretty tough to just master one, how have you managed to learn three?" So he showed me all "three" swings.....ZERO DIFFERENCE. He did not believe me when I told him, so I taped him doing all "three" swings, and the look on his face was pricelsss when he saw the video. The weirdest part was - his actual swing was nothing like either of those pros swings.

So often I read many posts on this forum wherein the poster is going on and on about what he thinks or feels he is doing in this golf swing, AS IF THE INTENTION TO DO IT IS THE SAME THING AS ACTUALLY DOING IT. And of course - they are nowhere near the same thing. Analytical type personatlites seem to be the most prone to this kind of self-deception.

Intention is the Feed Forward circuit in the brain/body system. The problem is, most average golfers have a very under-developed Feed Forward circuit, ie their body seldom does what their conscious mind is telling the body to do, at normal swing speeds. Even sometimes at slow motion, the body does something entirely different.
[/quote]

LOL.

What a great story.

[tembolo1284]

That's a great story indeed! haha.

[tngolf22]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1373558674' post='7432176']
[quote name='tngolf22' timestamp='1373556903' post='7431944']
Ok great thread so far.

So if I've been focused on a pivot-driven swing (9-3 drills, ET, Jim Waldron threads, Arm Swing Illusion thread), and for the last few years have been fairly successful with it, is it fair to say I'm not doing what I feel? I say this because I can still miss the ball both ways and I still hit the ball further AND higher when I feel like I'm taking the arms hands way up high and just slinging the hell out of it with my hands. I also play just as well. I'm wondering if my swing was in synch while playing well either way and it's just a matter of I'm not doing what I'm feeling. Maybe if I just keep doing what works I shouldn't worry about it.
[/quote]

There is a clear and simple answer: you need to tape your swing on a regular basis so that you can verify for yourself whether or not your body and club are actually doing what you intend/feel them to be doing. The results are quite often shocking.

I had a 12 handicap student about 15 years ago come to see me and when I asked him to hit some balls for me, he said to me "Which of my three swings should I use? My Nicklaus swing, my Trevino swing or my Hogan swing?" I was kind of stunned and said "You really have three swings? Pretty tough to just master one, how have you managed to learn three?" So he showed me all "three" swings.....ZERO DIFFERENCE. He did not believe me when I told him, so I taped him doing all "three" swings, and the look on his face was pricelsss when he saw the video. The weirdest part was - his actual swing was nothing like either of those pros swings.

So often I read many posts on this forum wherein the poster is going on and on about what he thinks or feels he is doing in this golf swing, AS IF THE INTENTION TO DO IT IS THE SAME THING AS ACTUALLY DOING IT. And of course - they are nowhere near the same thing. Analytical type personatlites seem to be the most prone to this kind of self-deception.

Intention is the Feed Forward circuit in the brain/body system. The problem is, most average golfers have a very under-developed Feed Forward circuit, ie their body seldom does what their conscious mind is telling the body to do, at normal swing speeds. Even sometimes at slow motion, the body does something entirely different.
[/quote] Yep. Makes perfect sense.

[SteveG673]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1373558674' post='7432176']
[quote name='tngolf22' timestamp='1373556903' post='7431944']
Ok great thread so far.

So if I've been focused on a pivot-driven swing (9-3 drills, ET, Jim Waldron threads, Arm Swing Illusion thread), and for the last few years have been fairly successful with it, is it fair to say I'm not doing what I feel? I say this because I can still miss the ball both ways and I still hit the ball further AND higher when I feel like I'm taking the arms hands way up high and just slinging the hell out of it with my hands. I also play just as well. I'm wondering if my swing was in synch while playing well either way and it's just a matter of I'm not doing what I'm feeling. Maybe if I just keep doing what works I shouldn't worry about it.
[/quote]

There is a clear and simple answer: you need to tape your swing on a regular basis so that you can verify for yourself whether or not your body and club are actually doing what you intend/feel them to be doing. The results are quite often shocking.

I had a 12 handicap student about 15 years ago come to see me and when I asked him to hit some balls for me, he said to me "Which of my three swings should I use? My Nicklaus swing, my Trevino swing or my Hogan swing?" I was kind of stunned and said "You really have three swings? Pretty tough to just master one, how have you managed to learn three?" So he showed me all "three" swings.....ZERO DIFFERENCE. He did not believe me when I told him, so I taped him doing all "three" swings, and the look on his face was pricelsss when he saw the video. The weirdest part was - his actual swing was nothing like either of those pros swings.

So often I read many posts on this forum wherein the poster is going on and on about what he thinks or feels he is doing in this golf swing, AS IF THE INTENTION TO DO IT IS THE SAME THING AS ACTUALLY DOING IT. And of course - they are nowhere near the same thing. Analytical type personatlites seem to be the most prone to this kind of self-deception.

Intention is the Feed Forward circuit in the brain/body system. The problem is, most average golfers have a very under-developed Feed Forward circuit, ie their body seldom does what their conscious mind is telling the body to do, at normal swing speeds. Even sometimes at slow motion, the body does something entirely different.
[/quote]

Lol. Unless I had a ball flight like Nicklaus, Trevino, or Hogan's, I don't think I would have the chutzpah to say my swing resembled theirs...

[thug the bunny]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1373558674' post='7432176']
[quote name='tngolf22' timestamp='1373556903' post='7431944']
Ok great thread so far.

So if I've been focused on a pivot-driven swing (9-3 drills, ET, Jim Waldron threads, Arm Swing Illusion thread), and for the last few years have been fairly successful with it, is it fair to say I'm not doing what I feel? I say this because I can still miss the ball both ways and I still hit the ball further AND higher when I feel like I'm taking the arms hands way up high and just slinging the hell out of it with my hands. I also play just as well. I'm wondering if my swing was in synch while playing well either way and it's just a matter of I'm not doing what I'm feeling. Maybe if I just keep doing what works I shouldn't worry about it.
[/quote]

There is a clear and simple answer: you need to tape your swing on a regular basis so that you can verify for yourself whether or not your body and club are actually doing what you intend/feel them to be doing. The results are quite often shocking.

I had a 12 handicap student about 15 years ago come to see me and when I asked him to hit some balls for me, he said to me "Which of my three swings should I use? My Nicklaus swing, my Trevino swing or my Hogan swing?" I was kind of stunned and said "You really have three swings? Pretty tough to just master one, how have you managed to learn three?" So he showed me all "three" swings.....ZERO DIFFERENCE. He did not believe me when I told him, so I taped him doing all "three" swings, and the look on his face was pricelsss when he saw the video. The weirdest part was - his actual swing was nothing like either of those pros swings.

So often I read many posts on this forum wherein the poster is going on and on about what he thinks or feels he is doing in this golf swing, AS IF THE INTENTION TO DO IT IS THE SAME THING AS ACTUALLY DOING IT. And of course - they are nowhere near the same thing. Analytical type personatlites seem to be the most prone to this kind of self-deception.

Intention is the Feed Forward circuit in the brain/body system. The problem is, most average golfers have a very under-developed Feed Forward circuit, ie their body seldom does what their conscious mind is telling the body to do, at normal swing speeds. Even sometimes at slow motion, the body does something entirely different.
[/quote]

I think most everyone in this thread is vehemently agreeing with you. The consensus is that we need to feel we are performing a certain move to offset a tendency, but [b]we are not in any way saying that we are actually performing said move[/b]. Nevertheless, we need to have that feel, whether it is real or not. E.g., I know when I am pull-hooking, I need to feel like my right hand is under the grip and the club face is wide open, however from the straight or slight push ball flight when this compensation is working, I know that this is not true.

[dreich54311]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1373462434' post='7423594']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1373399835' post='7419154']
He probably has an active lower body and needs to feel his arms start first so they don't get too far behind.

Not how the sequence happens though.
[/quote]

To paraphrase Hamlet, there are more things in heaven and earth, Monte, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

As a matter of fact there are a lot of good to great golfers who have and do control their swing with the hands and arms and allow the body of react, playing a supportive role. .To deny that one such player actually does what he thinks he does is a bit Horatio of you, don't you think.

Steve
[/quote]

Thats the controversy arm initiate swing or body does. I favor the former.

[crapula]

Sometimes I feel like I swing out of my a**, but I'm just using my upper body first. When I remember to use my lower body first, I stay in my a**. That sounds weird.