Moving Backwards in Time - Why do you play vintage clubs?

[Kirasdad]

I have mentioned this a year or so ago, but can't remember which thread. I do think a GPS, Range Finder, whatever the gizmo of choice is, does have a valuable use for amateurs. You use it once. You go out and play nine on a Monday when there are very few folks on the course, and hit several balls per hole using every club in the bag as many times as practical. You shoot the distance that most of them go. Not the best, mind you, but most of them. Then you have a baseline for how far you ACTUALLY hit your clubs. I find that most of my friends, pretty good players in the main, don't really know how far they hit it. Well, putting it another way, they think they hit it farther than they do, especially on the fly. Of course, this doesn't take into account the aforementioned conditions, elevation, wind, and so on, but at least you have a pretty accurate default position, especially important with your wedges, or in my case with hickory, my wedge (niblick).

[Fellaheen51]

K, your posting coincides with thoughts I've had for one value of a laser/GPS device. Benchmarking how far I REALLY hit my various golf clubs. A D isn't really that hard to calculate. The hole is x number of yards long and one has y number of yards for a second shot. Simple subtraction gives you the distance. But it's the second shot club, especially a longish second, where distances get a little sketchy. Inside of 100 yards, no so much of an issue. Usually SW, just a matter of matching the swing needed for the required distance. Suppose one could benchmark full swing, 3/4, 1/2, etc. distances. But I'm not that good with to much information, gets in the way of "feeling" what needs to be accomplished. Anyway, all of this does not warrant going out a dropping $ on said device. It is what it is for all this time, will continue to be most likely.

[oldschoolrocker]

Kdad,
Agree with the majority of ams ego adding a few yards to each club. I learned early on to "over club" from what my ego told me and although I don't always adhere to that mindset, I do have a solid baseline of actual distances with each club. The fly in the ointment, or, the added fun is when finding a "new" to me vintage set and seeing how they perform against a known standard.
For example, the '74 Dynapowers are my most consistent and longest yardage per number on the sole club I play. So, when aquiring a new, to me, vintage set I will take a long, medium, and short iron from the baseline Dynapowers along with the same numbered clubs from the recently aquired set to the range. After a couple of sessions I have a reasonably accurate idea of the new clubs expected yardage.
Now, if I were the ball striker I would like to be, this would translate perfectly to the course, but, my names not on my bag, so some days are more consistent than others.
All in all, this method has worked well for me.

[scomac2002]

For amateurs yardage is an approximation at best. There are simply too many variables at play -- swing, club, wind, temperature, humidity, elevation and accuracy of the course measurement. Is it any wonder the typical bogie golfer has so few GIRs?

As has been previously mentioned, gadgets aren't particularly helpful to spacial awareness beyond assisting in setting the base-point. To my way of thinking spacial awareness is all connected. If you rely on a gadget for an approach distance what impact will that have on your senses with judging a pitch, a chip or even a lag putt? Will you have to measure everything?

[TimV]

My disdain for all those things is about equal to what I have toward the guy that takes 10 practice swings...
right before shanking it into the underbrush. Which I find is often the case with the guys who need a reading on every shot as well.

[jonnygrouville]

I spent many years scratch or better, never really being in possession of a short game to speak of, so backed myself from a ball-striking point of view. Nonetheless, never felt that I needed anything like that level of accuracy because I was still not dealing with those sorts of standard deviations. Certainly not over wedge range anyway. Also played windy courses with elevation change in the freezing cold, so would seem a stone-cold miracle that anyone ever hits any green at all.

Now there is something to be said for having the confidence from a precise number and my wedge game was always awful. A mate who played college golf in the US before heading over to Blighty loved having 88 yards and would always stick it close from 88 yards, but sometimes I wonder whether he told himself he had 88 yards even if he did not, even if it was just a 3/4 wedge.

Can't see why some people seem to like turning their leisure into work, mentally water-boarding themselves with this sort of rubbish. Half-sets, no laser range finders, just bloody enjoy yourself. You'll get round in three and a half hours and get to spend some time with your family, with your feet up drinking cold beer, sitting in a bus-stop smoking crack from an old shoe, whatever floats your boat.

Just say no.... to range-finders.

[stevemcgee99]

...standard deviations...
...mentally water-boarding...

I love this forum.

[Fellaheen51]

LOL Jonny. Well posted. No contraptions, evah.

Your posting made me recall an incident from my college years (at least one thing I hazily remember). I lost a bet and had to drink a beer out of an old tennis shoe. Ugghh, it was terrible. The beer wasn't cold.

I was young.

[Nellarecneps]

Well. Not that my clubs are so vintage and so sought after but it started with a McGregor golden bear 3 wood at a thrift shop last summer. Ended up buying the matching driver and 5 wood and some "matching" McGregor irons (golden bear). This is the set I've learned on although the driver has been replaced with a ping eye 2 that has a graphite stiff shaft. Tbh I play old clubs because they are decently cheap and I'm a very new player. Wish I would've picked up golf before highschool. Wouldve loved to play for the team

[oldschoolrocker]

A wonderful thing about this game Nell is that there is no starting age. One starts when one starts and the journey continues from there. Welcome to our little corner cafe'.

[Shambles]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1437523060' post='11995580']
A wonderful thing about this game Nell is that there is no starting age. One starts when one starts and the journey continues from there. Welcome to our little corner cafe'.
[/quote]

Very well said.



Shambles

[oldschoolrocker]

becsuse I find I can hit shots with them that I can't with modern clubs. Can still work the ball to a degree with the right modern ball.
Had a few shots yesterday that required some precision bending and all I could think of after the shot, was that would have never happened with the modern stuff.
And, it was extremely gratifying to see the shot, pull it off and feel like I was "playing golf," instead of point and shoot.
190 to the front from light left rough, water left of the green, tree line on left, sharp dogleg left back to the green. Quail high 3 iron that bent lazily around the corner ending up on the front fringe. Wouldn't even attempt with a modern 3, either overcooked in the water, or straight right of the green.
High cut 3 wood that sits down in the short grass. No way with a modern.
And Bulge and Roll on the driver, what could be better.

[scomac2002]

Thanks for the reminder, Randy. Your description painted a mental image that made me recall a shot I hit early in the spring during one of my first rounds with my vintage bag.

The truth is I don't play the game the same anymore even when I bring out the modern bag. My swing is smoother and more deliberate. Perhaps I've finally made a bit of headway into curing my hit tendency. Choke down, take a bit off, try and move the ball a bit left or right; what once seemed like a foreign concept is now becoming more comfortable to attempt. It has become much more about see the shot, feel the shot, hit the shot and measuring one's progress with success or failure on any given shot rather than the number on the card at the end of the day. It's much more satisfying than chasing some random number that doesn't really reflect much about how you golfed your ball. I think I'm finally appreciating the wisdom behind the Bagger Vance quote: [i]"Golf is not a game that can be mastered; it can only be played." [/i]Which reminds me; I need to show my 3 iron a bit more love next time I hit the links!

[premazipp]

I only play the older stuff in my irons, but for me, they look better (compact, thin top line, etc) and they require a better swing. It's amazing how a couple of rounds with my old Hogan irons make my "modern" MP67 and MB2 irons feel easy.

[Sweet]

i practice with my MacGregor MT2's because when I grab my "current" clubs, it makes them effortless and incredibly forgiving

[CHE KJARRVERA]

Nice thread. Many of today's transformeresque irons and 'tin can on a surfcaster' drivers are devoid of soul. In the spirit of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, there's a lot to be learned from assembling and maintaining a bag of trusty links weapons.

[sbboudreau]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1373574629' post='7434100']
I've been gaming vintage irons a bit more regularly lately (especially with the addition of a set of Wilson Staff FG-17s), and I'm starting to come to the conclusion that we all go back either:
- Looking for something which was familiar and comfortable to us when we were young
- Looking for something that we couldn't have when we were young, and now we can

And much like many members of this thread still find joy in playing vintage blades and woods, twenty years from now, this forum will be full of people playing "vintage" Burner Bubble drivers, and "vintage" Mizuno T-Zoids.

For myself, as I'm getting older (mid 40's feels both young and old at the same time), I seem to be suffering a bit of this nostalgia for my youth; when the golf course was a near holy place where I would go to commune with God, nature, and the spirits of Bobby Jones, and later, Ben Hogan. Not that I don't still have these moments on a course, but you can never capture lightning in a bottle again. To see a course again anew through the eyes of a 14-year old, playing as often as he could afford it (which wasn't very often, even at youth discounted fees) is something I'll never recapture.

I so vivdly remember the first time I saw a green. I didn't believe it was grass. I had to go up to it on my hands and knees, and peer at it closely, and pull out a few blades before I would believe it was alive. In my mind, I still hear the sound of my borrowed clubs (Lady Campbell 7 piece set) clanking together in the bag thrown over my shoulder. I still can hear the exact noise the bag made when I dropped it to the ground. And I can still smell the blooming trees, hear the singing birds, and see the hazy sunlight reflecting off the dew on the greens on another humid Manitoba summer morning.

And most of all, I remember what being a poor kid on a golf course was like. People who had money could order fries from the enticing smelling restaurant in the clubhouse. People who had money played the same brand of ball every time they went out, and could buy pretty much any pristine new ball they wanted. People with money had 11-piece sets, metal woods, Anser-style putters, and pull carts. People with money played with equipment that I saw in my Uncle's hand-me-down Golf Digest magazines; I would read the ads, with my young heart breaking knowing that I couldn't and would likely never attain any of this beautiful, modern equipment.

So I find myself now still looking at vintage equipment, and maybe in my own way, I'm attempting to recapture some of that simplicity of golf in my youth (nostalgia) while owning everything I wanted back then (compensating).

Ping Eye 2s, Anser putters, Wilson Staff Irons, anything that said "Ben Hogan" on it. Modern, classy, and all beautiful to a poor kid playing with a small set of hand me down lady clubs.

So here I am today. The poor kid is gone, replaced with a successful business professional who provides a good standard of living to his family. And my newest set of irons is about 25 years old. My current gamers are Ping Eye 2s. Usually the Wilson Staff FG-17s get played once every two weeks. I have a set of Ben Hogan Black Cameos coming in the mail. There's also a set of 60's Staff Fluid Feel Turfriders in the garage I simply can't hit. My main putter is a Ping Pal, but I do also have a Slotline Inertial when I need a heavier club. And my bag is an 80's vintage Ping white staff bag.

Sure, I may play modern woods, and a modern version of a classic wedge (Eye 2XG LW), but already my woods are starting to creep back too. The 2008 MacGregor MT 3W was replaced by a TM Burner Bubble. I'm thinking of replacing it with a BH 2W I have sitting around. I honestly see nothing in my bag except the driver as being newer than 30 years old within the next few months. And even if my league partner gives me the gears for playing blades (he always does), they may come out for a permanent spin in the bag. Mind you, the Eye 2s sure help out when you're drinking beer at league.

And I look down at the blade at address, and I get a little smile on my face, as this is the way a golf club is supposed to look. Even the Eye 2s look right. Not like my Nickent 3DX Hybrid irons I had with the thick toplines, or my Cleveland TA6 irons with the progressively wider soles. Should someone see the sole of their iron at address? I didn't think so. All good clubs, but not for the optical part of my brain.

So here I am, moving backward in time in my clubs, and enjoying every minute of it. I'll never replace that feeling of wonder the 14 year old boy had on his first visit to the golf course, with the feeling of anxiety and nervousness he had hitting his first tee shot while people stood and watched. I'll never forget asking my Uncle on the first hole we played, "Should I use my 3 Wood here?" on a 176yd Par 3 (I never had a chance to hit the green). I'll never replace the first par I had at 16, when I got to a Par 5 in 3 and lag putted to 1' away for my par (I could get there in 2 now). I'll never even replace the first eagle I had, a 150yd 7i that hopped into the cup on a par 4 in my mid-20s.

I love vintage clubs for their craftsmanship, because they allow me to recapture some of my favourite moments from a less-than-perfect youth, and because they let me know, "Hey! You're not a poor kid anymore." That's pretty good stuff, simply based on swinging a bashed out lump of metal that was then glued to another piece of metal, then given a grip. And I feel like a thief when I see how little I pay for these.

So, what do vintage clubs do for you? Why you collect them or play them?
[/quote]Wait until you hit 54 or 64 or 74. Those memories will make you actually cry, at least bring a tear to your eyes. My younger brother, now 50 and I used to play at least 2 times a week for almost 4 years straight in the early to mid 90's, then he found crack (dummy, he's sober now thank God). He lives in Maine now and I in SC. Boo Hoo!

[oldschoolrocker]

Glad he is off the *****. Will keep him in my prayers. Where in SC?

[grim322]

When I graduated from high school (over 45 years ago), I got a brand new set of First Flight Golden Eagle woods and irons. Top of the line clubs for 1970. I used them for nearly 20 years, then they were handed down to my son and nephew. They then spent 20 years in my brother's attic until I was reunited with them last summer. I reshafted the irons with Dynamic Gold R400 and refinished the woods, but left the original True Temper pro-lite shafts in them. I was also back with my Walter Hagen Starline brass putter.Took them out one day just for fun on a short (5600 yard) par 70 course and the magic began. My "just for fun" turned into a 6 under 64. I don't hit as long, but the workability and accuracy were unbelievable. I've bounced back and forth between my new clubs and my old clubs and find myself being drawn to the old clubs. I am thinking of making my #1 set of clubs a blend of old and new by trying to get the best of both worlds.

The driver will be metal with a graphite shaft- they are longer

3,4, and 5 wood- real wood with metal shafts

4 hybrid- graphite shaft- easier to hit than long iron blade

4,5,6,7,8,9,pw- old forged blades

56 degree modern wedge- great around the green

whatever putter is hot (I do like the old Walter Hagen)

 

I could play that set on any length course and not feel like I'm sacrificing any distance. If I play a shorter course, I would consider playing the wood driver. Not as long, but very accurate.

[Fellaheen51]

Let me be the first to welcome you to the Classic section. This place becomes rather addictive as there is so much to read and learn around here. Your "finding myself being drawn to the old clubs" is a common refrain by all of us. From those with hickory shafts to clubs with graphite, old forged irons to modern cast ones (What? LOL), the motto around here is play whatever brings you enjoyment. We don't make judgements as to the right or wrong of one's implements. All that's required is that you keep us updated on your endeavors.

 

My experience, a persimmon (laminate) 5W plays much like a 22* (4H) hybrid. My Hogan 5W is about the same size, shape and loft as the modern hybrid. Actually have preferred it over the latter this season. Tendency is to hit it straighter (steel shaft?) and about the same distance (170'ish).

 

A lot of us play blended kits, a mix of the old and new. Clubs move in and out of the bag with regularity. Depending on how we're hitting them or whatever suits our fancy for a given day. A thread that may be of interest on the "blended bag" concept:

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/878584-a-set-for-all-seasons/

[grim322]

Remember back to the days when nobody carried 3 or 4 wedges? I played for 20 years with one wedge- a pitching wedge. I used it for virtually every shot inside 110 yards. Full, half and 3/4 shots. Opened the club face and played from sand traps or laid it fully open and hit flop shots. I grew up playing the municipal courses in and around Springfield, Ohio- the greens weren't that soft and I was probably playing an Achusnet Club Special that wasn't going to stop anyway, so I learned to play the bump and run. Low trajectory shot that hit in the front fringe, took one hop onto the green and rolled to the hole- a lost art for most of today's golfers. The bump and run is still my shot of choice around the green. Those are the little things that vintage clubs bring back that makes the game fun and interesting.

[fly47]

Retired over 20 years with a fixed income, can't afford new or latest. I have sets from the 90's from my son after he's equipped with newer from golf companies... Mizuno,, Cleveland. Being old school, don't like the cosmetics. Like chromed or brushed forged club. Feels and looks good to me. Prefer smaller driver heads...400cc. Older, heavier, stiffer make me swing better with satisfying feel. Last new set I bought...80's Yamaha forged blades.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Always glad to see this thread pop back up from time to time.

 

The visual of the first time I saw a real putting green (and my likely bizarre behaviour when doing so) is still such a fresh memory over 30 years later.

 

Wish I could build a time machine. Oh yes, and welcome to all the new converts. Great to have more people here who can see through the BS of the marketing machine.

 

And I'm with Grim - bump and run is still a major component to my game these days. Stopping an old otti dimpled Top Flite was akin to finding a rainbow unicorn.

[Nomad Golfer]

A wood was a wood and a #4 wood had a head on it the same size as a #4 hybrid. The balls were wound, smaller than they are today (USA size compared to European size), A driver was called a #1 wood, spoons brassies and niblicks were common labels, my bag was leather and the wheels on my trolley were spoked with white tyres. Irons ranged from 2 - 9 and a pitching wedge nor sand wedge were included. Holes were shorter and there were generally no toilets halfway around. My bag contained a #2 wood and #4 wood, irons 2-9 and a putter, that's all it would hold comfortably. Do I miss those good 'ol days? HELL NO !

[stevemcgee99]

And I'm with Grim - bump and run is still a major component to my game these days. Stopping an old otti dimpled Top Flite was akin to finding a rainbow unicorn.

I do it most of the time. Strange, though, at Lake Chabot Monday I dropped and stopped a couple but it's El Nino lol. Puddles forming on the greens.

 

Seems to me that bump and run is the safest shot considering greens are not uniform. And I like how MacKenzie, Jones, Fleming, Loch, et al shape the raised platform to encourage a shaped shot (or well-placed drive) and to block anything rolling from the wrong direction.

[baloo]

I love the vintage stuff. There's something simple about it that I really appreciate. And I score about the same. Golf courses are more interesting too - you have to hit every club in the bag.

Buying the clubs for peanuts is great too.

[grim322]

Nomad Golfer brings up some valid points about the "bad" memories of old clubs. I think a lot of it depends on your age and when you began to play good golf and moved up to a premium set of clubs. I'm old enough that my first set of premium clubs was before Ping revolutionized the golf world with cavity back investment cast clubs. I had the privilege of playing a set of professional grade forged blades and wooden woods. Back before graphite shafts, nobody really talked about torque or kick point- pretty much just flex- regular or stiff. The rule of thumb for telling the quality of a metal shaft was to count the steps. Cheap clubs from the discount store would have only 3 or 4 steps. The quality stuff would have 12 or more steps on the woods. If it was a quality shaft, it was a good bet that it was a quality head. Cheap shaft, cheap head- that's the way the manufacturers made them.

 

So, if you are new to vintage clubs and looking at some used clubs, count the shaft steps. That will give you a quick idea of what you are getting.

[Sky High Handicap]

I have been meaning to reply to this thread for a while now. So why do I play vintage clubs? Several reasons, I suppose. The clubs I liked and wanted when I first started playing were expensive back then, but are dirt cheap now.

 

I should have started chasing more of them down 3 or 4 years ago when they were easier to come by in great condition at play it again sports and the golf shops. Now they have so little trade in value that they don't show up in the stores much, and when you do find them either the heads are marked up bad, or else the grips are starting to crumble. I waited a couple of years too late to start buying up the good old stuff locally. I could have gotten so much good stuff 3 or 4 years ago. I don't buy clubs online.

 

With very few exceptions, I don't think clubs have improved much in the last 14 to 18 years; at least not in meaningful ways that I can take advantage of. I can't square up huge 460CC heads very well, and I can't hit long shafts very straight, so all of the new drivers are wrong for me. The best example of a new driver I have found, is a TM RBZ 13* Tour Spoon that is a great tee box option.

 

I do like small headed hybrid irons. They live up to the hype.

[scruffynick]

I've also wanted to reply to this for a while, so why older clubs?? A few reasons mainly, but in truth I don't think the irons have changed much over the last 20 years except the lofts. Which brings me to the lofts, I spent years through my youth learning how far I hit a 7 iron.....only to find the newer irons have turned a 9 iron into a 7 iron! That's alien to me! But I just love the older models, the simple classic looks (ping eye 2 being my favourite club of all time) and in a way it all reminds me of being 15 again. I just like having something that reminds me of life pre wife and kids, and my vintage/older clubs do this to me! In truth a classic vintage golf club makes me smile!

[Sky High Handicap]

I honestly forgot to mention, "because this is what I can afford", as a factor which also influences my taste in equipment.