Provisional Ball place or drop?

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Last night I played a ball from under a ~8 foot pine tree that had been nicely edged, with dirt under the pine tree and a sharp edged line between the dirt and short rough. The ball was resting on the dirt against the edge of the grass. After striking my ball from under the tree I thought my ball may have gone OB, so I played a provisional.

 

Was I required to place the provisional in the same exact spot of my original or could I move it back a few inches so I could play the provisional from the grass instead of the dirt? I know the rule says "as near as possible" so I wasn't sure how much latitude that allows. If I dropped it, I could have easily made sure it hit the grass first hoping it would stay in the grass or am I required to place it in the dirt?

 

(Turns out the ball was not OB, so I didn't have to play my provisional :) )

 

Thanks

[KevCarter]

[b] 20-5. Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made[/b]

When a player elects or is required to make his next [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stroke"]stroke[/url][/i] from where a previous [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stroke"]stroke[/url][/i] was made, he must proceed as follows:

(a) On the Teeing Ground: The ball to be played must be played from within the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Teeing-Ground"]teeing ground[/url][/i]. It may be played from anywhere within the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Teeing-Ground"]teeing ground[/url][/i] and may be teed.

(b) Through the Green: The ball to be played [b]must be dropped [/b]and when dropped must first strike a part of the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Course"]course[/url][/i]
[i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Through-The-Green"]through the green[/url][/i].

(c) In a Hazard: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Course"]course[/url][/i] in the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Hazards"]hazard[/url][/i].

(d) On the Putting Green: The ball to be played must be placed on the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Putting-Green"]putting green[/url][/i].

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1374845288' post='7542958']
If I dropped it, I could have easily made sure it hit the grass first hoping it would stay in the grass or am I required to place it in the dirt?
[/quote]

In addition to Kevin's major point about dropping instead of placing I'd like to add something about your "making sure it hit the grass."

There were hundreds of posts on the topic of "as near as possible" in the thread surrounding Tiger's drop on 15 this year at the Masters. I'm not sure that the collective wisdom of GolfWRX ever got the issue completely nailed down, but both before and after reading that entire thread I had and have the same opinion:

You are required to drop as near as possible, and that means what it says. You must try to drop exactly on the spot. Given that the result of that attempt is very likely to be off by a little bit (let's say six inches to a foot or so) you don't have to re-drop if you're slightly off -- you lived up to your responsibility to drop "as nearly as possible." Of course, if you were off even an inch on the side close to the hole you'd have to re-drop due to the additional obligation to drop no nearer the hole. IMO if you attempt to drop on the grass as you say, that is deliberately avoiding the responsibility of trying to drop as near as possible, and IMO if you hit the ball after doing that you would be subject to a penalty -- just as Tiger was!

[goloworgohome]

I would like to piggy back off of this...

A standard drop is from shoulder height...from underneath a tree (for arguments sake lets say a pine tree where the branches start a foot or so above ground level) it seems like it would be almost impossible to drop from that height without risking that the ball gets hung up in the tree somehow or at very least bouncing around and possibly ending up a few feet to a few yards away...how should a ball be dropped in that situation?

An even more confusing situation...lets say you try to drop under the tree...it hits a branch and ricochets closer to the hole...re-drop and it happens again...now you are supposed to place at the point it hit...are you obligated to try to somehow place on that branch which seems awfully unreasonable?

[Colin L]

[quote name='go low or go home' timestamp='1374854130' post='7543962']
I would like to piggy back off of this...

A standard drop is from shoulder height...from underneath a tree (for arguments sake lets say a pine tree where the branches start a foot or so above ground level) it seems like it would be almost impossible to drop from that height without risking that the ball gets hung up in the tree somehow or at very least bouncing around and possibly ending up a few feet to a few yards away...how should a ball be dropped in that situation?

An even more confusing situation...lets say you try to drop under the tree...it hits a branch and ricochets closer to the hole...re-drop and it happens again...now you are supposed to place at the point it hit...are you obligated to try to somehow place on that branch which seems awfully unreasonable?
[/quote]

You would place the ball directly below where the ball hit the branch.

[goloworgohome]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1374854661' post='7544010']
[quote name='go low or go home' timestamp='1374854130' post='7543962']
I would like to piggy back off of this...

A standard drop is from shoulder height...from underneath a tree (for arguments sake lets say a pine tree where the branches start a foot or so above ground level) it seems like it would be almost impossible to drop from that height without risking that the ball gets hung up in the tree somehow or at very least bouncing around and possibly ending up a few feet to a few yards away...how should a ball be dropped in that situation?

An even more confusing situation...lets say you try to drop under the tree...it hits a branch and ricochets closer to the hole...re-drop and it happens again...now you are supposed to place at the point it hit...are you obligated to try to somehow place on that branch which seems awfully unreasonable?
[/quote]

You would place the ball directly below where the ball hit the branch.
[/quote]

That makes sense...thanks

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='go low or go home' timestamp='1374854130' post='7543962']
I would like to piggy back off of this...

A standard drop is from shoulder height...from underneath a tree (for arguments sake lets say a pine tree where the branches start a foot or so above ground level) it seems like it would be almost impossible to drop from that height without risking that the ball gets hung up in the tree somehow or at very least bouncing around and possibly ending up a few feet to a few yards away...how should a ball be dropped in that situation?

An even more confusing situation...lets say you try to drop under the tree...it hits a branch and ricochets closer to the hole...re-drop and it happens again...now you are supposed to place at the point it hit...are you obligated to try to somehow place on that branch which seems awfully unreasonable?
[/quote]

Colin gave the correct short answer, here are the relevant decisions.
[b] [i]20-2c/1.3[/i][/b]

[b] [i]Dropped Ball Strikes Tree Branch Then Ground; Whether Re-Drop Required[/i][/b]

[i]Q.A player drops a ball within the area prescribed by the applicable Rule. It bounces off a tree branch and as a result strikes the ground outside that area. What is the ruling?[/i]
[i]A.The ball struck a part of the course (the branch) where the applicable Rule requires (Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/#20-2b"]20-2b[/url]). Therefore, provided it does not roll into any of the positions listed in Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/#20-2c"]20-2c[/url], it is in play and must not be re-dropped. In measuring the two club-lengths to determine if a re-drop is required under Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/#20-2c%28vi%29"]20-2c(vi)[/url], the point on the ground immediately below the spot where the ball first struck a part of the course (the branch) shall be used for measuring purposes.[/i]
[b] 20-2a/5[/b]

[b] [i]Caddie Holds Back Tree Branch to Prevent Branch from Deflecting Dropped Ball[/i][/b]

[i]Q.May a player have his caddie hold back a tree branch that is waist high and situated at the spot at which the player wishes to drop his ball under a Rule?[/i]
[i]If the branch is not held back, the dropped ball might lodge in the branch or, in any case, the branch will be likely to deflect the dropped ball.[/i]
[i]A.No. Such an act would be a breach of Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-13/#13-2"]13-2[/url], which prohibits a player from improving the area in which he is to drop or place a ball by, among other things, moving or bending anything that is growing or fixed. The branch is part of the course in the area in which the player is to drop, and the player must accept that his ball may first strike the branch when proceeding under a Rule that requires the player to drop (see Decision [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-2c-1.3"]20-2c/1.3[/url]). The player would be in breach of Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-13/#13-2"]13-2[/url] at the moment that his caddie moves the branch. The penalty is not avoided if the branch is released prior to the player dropping the ball; the fact that the branch may return to its original location is irrelevant. (Revised)[/i]

[b] [i]20-2b/1[/i][/b]

[b] [i]Dropped Ball Never Strikes Ground[/i][/b]

[i]Q.A player drops a ball where the applicable Rule requires. It lodges in a bush without striking the ground. What is the ruling?[/i]
[i]A.The ball is in play. It struck a part of the course where required by the applicable Rule and did not roll into a position requiring it to be re-dropped under Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/#20-2c"]20-2c[/url].[/i]

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Thanks Sawgrass, Kevin and Stuart.

My situation would have been similar to what "go low..." said, and Stuart clarified nicely about dropping through branches.

However it seems odd to me that dropping is preferred over placing in my situation, because there is no way to insure a similar lie on the hard dirt against the edge of the grass unless I placed it. It also seems that dropping is rather punitive, because not only was I incurring a stroke for the drop, but also the ball could have rolled into an even worse situation. Or perhaps a better situation by bouncing off a branch or the dirt and rolling onto the grass for a better lie. Seems too random to be legit.

[goloworgohome]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1374857657' post='7544320']
[quote name='go low or go home' timestamp='1374854130' post='7543962']
I would like to piggy back off of this...

A standard drop is from shoulder height...from underneath a tree (for arguments sake lets say a pine tree where the branches start a foot or so above ground level) it seems like it would be almost impossible to drop from that height without risking that the ball gets hung up in the tree somehow or at very least bouncing around and possibly ending up a few feet to a few yards away...how should a ball be dropped in that situation?

An even more confusing situation...lets say you try to drop under the tree...it hits a branch and ricochets closer to the hole...re-drop and it happens again...now you are supposed to place at the point it hit...are you obligated to try to somehow place on that branch which seems awfully unreasonable?
[/quote]

Colin gave the correct short answer, here are the relevant decisions.
[b] [i]20-2c/1.3[/i][/b]

[b] [i]Dropped Ball Strikes Tree Branch Then Ground; Whether Re-Drop Required[/i][/b]

[i]Q.A player drops a ball within the area prescribed by the applicable Rule. It bounces off a tree branch and as a result strikes the ground outside that area. What is the ruling?[/i]
[i]A.The ball struck a part of the course (the branch) where the applicable Rule requires (Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/#20-2b"]20-2b[/url]). Therefore, provided it does not roll into any of the positions listed in Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/#20-2c"]20-2c[/url], it is in play and must not be re-dropped. In measuring the two club-lengths to determine if a re-drop is required under Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/#20-2c%28vi%29"]20-2c(vi)[/url], the point on the ground immediately below the spot where the ball first struck a part of the course (the branch) shall be used for measuring purposes.[/i]
[b] 20-2a/5[/b]

[b] [i]Caddie Holds Back Tree Branch to Prevent Branch from Deflecting Dropped Ball[/i][/b]

[i]Q.May a player have his caddie hold back a tree branch that is waist high and situated at the spot at which the player wishes to drop his ball under a Rule?[/i]
[i]If the branch is not held back, the dropped ball might lodge in the branch or, in any case, the branch will be likely to deflect the dropped ball.[/i]
[i]A.No. Such an act would be a breach of Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-13/#13-2"]13-2[/url], which prohibits a player from improving the area in which he is to drop or place a ball by, among other things, moving or bending anything that is growing or fixed. The branch is part of the course in the area in which the player is to drop, and the player must accept that his ball may first strike the branch when proceeding under a Rule that requires the player to drop (see Decision [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-2c-1.3"]20-2c/1.3[/url]). The player would be in breach of Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-13/#13-2"]13-2[/url] at the moment that his caddie moves the branch. The penalty is not avoided if the branch is released prior to the player dropping the ball; the fact that the branch may return to its original location is irrelevant. (Revised)[/i]

[b] [i]20-2b/1[/i][/b]

[b] [i]Dropped Ball Never Strikes Ground[/i][/b]

[i]Q.A player drops a ball where the applicable Rule requires. It lodges in a bush without striking the ground. What is the ruling?[/i]
[i]A.The ball is in play. It struck a part of the course where required by the applicable Rule and did not roll into a position requiring it to be re-dropped under Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/#20-2c"]20-2c[/url].[/i]
[/quote]

Interesting that if the ball comes to rest IN the tree or bush it is in play...seems to me like you would probably just be better off taking the unplayable from the get go to not risk a double penalty (one for the OB then one for the unplayable you would probably have to take with the ball in the tree...unless you want to risk hitting that one OB too)

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='go low or go home' timestamp='1374861762' post='7544842']

Interesting that if the ball comes to rest IN the tree or bush it is in play...seems to me like you would probably just be better off taking the unplayable from the get go to not risk a double penalty (one for the OB then one for the unplayable you would probably have to take with the ball in the tree...unless you want to risk hitting that one OB too)
[/quote]

Here is one of the many things that are wrong with me:

While I never think I can hit the ball as far as a pro . . . I always think I can get out of trouble as well as a pro. Until I hit the ball. Then, 75% of the time, I'm reminded of one of the many things that are wrong with me . . .

[Newby]

[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1374859150' post='7544484']Seems too random to be legit. [/quote]

The lie you had originally was pretty random. So it make sense that the result of your drop should be random also.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1374875961' post='7546294']
[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1374859150' post='7544484']Seems too random to be legit. [/quote]

The lie you had originally was pretty random. So it make sense that the result of your drop should be random also.
[/quote]

Not really, because the rules say the provisional should be played as near as possible to the original shot location. There is nothing random about that wording. The only way to be as near as possible and replicate the same lousy lie I had was to place it in the hard dirt against the edged grass.

[Newby]

[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1374943149' post='7550026']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1374875961' post='7546294']
[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1374859150' post='7544484']Seems too random to be legit. [/quote]

The lie you had originally was pretty random. So it make sense that the result of your drop should be random also.
[/quote]

Not really, because the rules say the provisional should be played as near as possible to the original shot location. There is nothing random about that wording. The only way to be as near as possible and replicate the same lousy lie I had was to place it in the hard dirt against the edged grass.
[/quote]

It is the result of the drop that introduces the randomness.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1374945527' post='7550194']
[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1374943149' post='7550026']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1374875961' post='7546294']
[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1374859150' post='7544484']Seems too random to be legit. [/quote]

The lie you had originally was pretty random. So it make sense that the result of your drop should be random also.
[/quote]

Not really, because the rules say the provisional should be played as near as possible to the original shot location. There is nothing random about that wording. The only way to be as near as possible and replicate the same lousy lie I had was to place it in the hard dirt against the edged grass.
[/quote]

It is the result of the drop that introduces the randomness.
[/quote]

NEWBY, what I am struggling with is why the rule says we must "play" the ball from a spot as close as possible, then ask us to drop, which absolutely will give us random results. I wonder why the rule wouldn't say "drop" as near as possible, or "place" to get the desired end result of "playing" from as near as possible? I know there is a good reason as there is with everything else in the book...

Thanks,
Kevin

[BlackDiamondPar5]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1374945935' post='7550208']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1374945527' post='7550194']
[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1374943149' post='7550026']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1374875961' post='7546294']
[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1374859150' post='7544484']Seems too random to be legit. [/quote]

The lie you had originally was pretty random. So it make sense that the result of your drop should be random also.
[/quote]

Not really, because the rules say the provisional should be played as near as possible to the original shot location. There is nothing random about that wording. The only way to be as near as possible and replicate the same lousy lie I had was to place it in the hard dirt against the edged grass.
[/quote]

It is the result of the drop that introduces the randomness.
[/quote]

NEWBY, what I am struggling with is why the rule says we must "play" the ball from a spot as close as possible, then ask us to drop, which absolutely will give us random results. I wonder why the rule wouldn't say "drop" as near as possible, or "place" to get the desired end result of "playing" from as near as possible? I know there is a good reason as there is with everything else in the book...

Thanks,
Kevin
[/quote]

The only valid reason I can see for a drop would be so you can't fluff/tee your ball up in the rough. That would not have been possible in my situation.

I sleep well knowing I placed my ball such that I gave my self no advantage over the original lie.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1374951054' post='7550574']
[

I sleep well knowing I placed my ball such that I gave my self no advantage over the original lie.
[/quote]

I call, "Philosophical Conundrum!"

How can you sleep well knowing you violated a Rule, when it's your intention to "give yourself no advantage" in regards to the Rules?

[Colin L]

[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1374951054' post='7550574']
I sleep well knowing I placed my ball such that I gave my self no advantage over the original lie.
[/quote]

I feel guilty that I might be jeopardising your next night's sleep,

By placing the ball instead of dropping it you [i]did[/i] give yourself an advantage. By placing it you maybe thought you were doing a good thing by ensuring you did not get the advantage of a drop ending up in a better position on the grass, but you are ignoring that the dropped ball might have ended up in a worse position than the original (eg unplayable up against the tree).

The randomness of dropping a ball includes both the chance of something better and the risk of something worse. In a particular situation, it might not be apparent , but over the piece it evens out. And it sure beats allowing players the chance of placing their ball .

[BlackDiamondPar5]

[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1375000970' post='7553662']
[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1374951054' post='7550574']
I sleep well knowing I placed my ball such that I gave my self no advantage over the original lie.
[/quote]

I feel guilty that I might be jeopardising your next night's sleep,

By placing the ball instead of dropping it you [i]did[/i] give yourself an advantage. By placing it you maybe thought you were doing a good thing by ensuring you did not get the advantage of a drop ending up in a better position on the grass, but you are ignoring that the dropped ball might have ended up in a worse position than the original (eg unplayable up against the tree).

The randomness of dropping a ball includes both the chance of something better and the risk of something worse. In a particular situation, it might not be apparent , but over the piece it evens out. And it sure beats allowing players the chance of placing their ball .
[/quote]

Nah, not gonna impact my sleep, especially since I didn't have to play the provisional, and also because I had already lost the match so it was irrelevant.

I still find ambiguity in this claim of "randomness" when the rules say it should be played as "near as possible."

Also in my case a drop which resulted in it rolling in a worse location would have definitely been closer to the hole. The only place I could have gone to insure no closer to the hole would have put the ball back on the grass which clearly would have improved my previous lie.

[sui generis]

[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1375010144' post='7553834']
[quote name='Colin L' timestamp='1375000970' post='7553662']
[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1374951054' post='7550574']
I sleep well knowing I placed my ball such that I gave my self no advantage over the original lie.
[/quote]

I feel guilty that I might be jeopardising your next night's sleep,

By placing the ball instead of dropping it you [i]did[/i] give yourself an advantage. By placing it you maybe thought you were doing a good thing by ensuring you did not get the advantage of a drop ending up in a better position on the grass, but you are ignoring that the dropped ball might have ended up in a worse position than the original (eg unplayable up against the tree).

The randomness of dropping a ball includes both the chance of something better and the risk of something worse. In a particular situation, it might not be apparent , but over the piece it evens out. And it sure beats allowing players the chance of placing their ball .
[/quote]

Nah, not gonna impact my sleep, especially since I didn't have to play the provisional, and also because I had already lost the match so it was irrelevant.

I still find ambiguity in this claim of "randomness" when the rules say it should be played as "near as possible."

Also in my case a drop which resulted in it rolling in a worse location would have definitely been closer to the hole. The only place I could have gone to insure no closer to the hole would have put the ball back on the grass which clearly would have improved my previous lie.
[/quote]

Each time I think that I know better than the Rules, I find that I don't. Anyone else thinking they have a better idea needs to read Tufts or read Tufts again or even reread for the third or fourth time.