Do scratch golfers/ better players have an untapped knowledge for the game of golf? The TRIAL AND ER

[dreich54311]

[quote name='Ezgolfer' timestamp='1376868336' post='7700972']
Tiger wood is missing from the extensive list . He played right handed from childhood (see video's) and is right handed .

I'm not aware of any information concerning which side was dominant,for Tiger. He could be cross dominant doing some things left and some things right. There is no way of knowing if this might be the case.
[/quote]

[dreich54311]

[quote name='Magician' timestamp='1376915648' post='7703996']
[quote name='dreich54311' timestamp='1376890423' post='7703224']
[quote name='Magician' timestamp='1376876719' post='7702078']
Soundbites here and there from pro's and teachers whom change swing thoughts as they do socks, along with photographs that could suggest other handedness of golfers that were relevant a century ago is what you base a list on?
Just respond to why the tennis backhand is the weaker, less accurate shot and let's go

Your comment doesn't justify a response.
[/quote]
[/quote]
So once again you are unable to offer any support.
The fact remains (and I use your example the tennis backhand), that all the statistical data from the USTA and LTA shows the backhand to be a shot that hits less winners, and is hit with less speed.
Have you used this reasoning to justify to yourself your golfing inadequacies?

Considering the absurd way in which you attempted to discredit the study I posted there is no way that one could have an intelligent discussion with you. At best it would be a huge waste of time.
[/quote]

[westchester bomber]

I'm an extremely good tennis player and golfer and my only thoughts on the topic comparing a backhand to the golf swing and being left side dominant as a righty golfer are summed up in this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0&sns=em

[dreich54311]

I can see why you are so cranky if you're wife is sleeping around. What's with the suit?

[ABgolfer2]

[quote name='dreich54311' timestamp='1376948450' post='7707706']
I can see why you are so cranky if you're wife is sleeping around. What's with the suit?
[/quote]

Do your quoted posts look okay on your screen? How about your avatar?

[dreich54311]

[quote name='ABgolfer2' timestamp='1376972097' post='7710348']
[quote name='dreich54311' timestamp='1376948450' post='7707706']
I can see why you are so cranky if you're wife is sleeping around. What's with the suit?
[/quote]

Do your quoted posts look okay on your screen? How about your avatar?
[/quote]

Yes they do. Thank you for asking.

[isaacbm]

Other than a very funny clip, the last few exchanges have pretty much derailed an otherwise interesting thread. Take the silly argument about hand dominance to another thread already. If you can't point to something specific that relates to the topic of the thread, then have a PM conversation about the whole dominance idea...

Just a thought.

Anyone else have something interesting to share about "untapped knowledge" that scratch golfers have??

[sblack5]

I think that lower cap golfers have a better ability to retain and repeat something that they've learned either on a lesson or that they've figured out on the course or practice area.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1376973369' post='7710444']
I think that lower cap golfers have a better ability to retain and repeat something that they've learned either on a lesson or that they've figured out on the course or practice area.
[/quote]Agree, why is that though? I've always thought that at some level, as a person gets closer to the elite level, they learn to access their subconscious more readily. I'm not really sure how but I think it's relevant.

Seems like scratch and under scratch golfers get to the place where they just react to the situation rather than try to think about it from a million different angles. I realize that golf is not as reactionary as a sport like baseball, but maybe it is on a subtle level. When I'm around the green for instance, I don't consciously think about grain, slope, wind, lie or any of it. I take one quick look and it all just registers. Then my body simply reacts to it all and I exert the necessary amount of force, angle of attack etc. to make the ball do what I need it to do. I think the only way I got to that place is by playing 1000's of round of golf and spending 1000's more hours around practice greens since I was a child.
When I play with a lot of mid caps, they seem confused as to what the lie/slope/wind will do to a pitch. I think a lot of that is simply lack of time and lack of enough input into their subconscious mind to draw on it quickly. If I point all of the factors out to them individually, they get it. They see it. But they have trouble getting there quickly on their own.

[sblack5]

^^^^^ this..... its like any master level skill set for a job. some things can only be learned thru repetitive experience. a proficient master mechanic or pilot only get to where doing things properly is second nature to them by putting in thousands of hours where those situations that call for those skills are at the fore front of their attention.

nobody is a 3 round a month, 60 range balls once a month + cap. getting a low cap (scratch or better) requires consistent use of skills to make correct situational decisions on the fly. the skills used for this game and getting good at it definitely fall under the two phrases "perfect practice makes perfect" and " if you dont use it, you lose it". getting there and having that unconscious situational expertise requires a different level of commitment and for most all of us that get there, sacrifice. and that's not something everyone wants to go thru for golf

[Ezgolfer]

Agree in almost all the cases ...
but there are freaks like this one ...
Fun facts! Kid HAS NEVER HAD GOLF AS HIS NO. 1 PRIORITY (spent the last two years studying for exams in Britain, played just four hours of golf a week) and he was caddied by his little bro. Awww.

http://www.sippinonpurple.com/2013/8/18/4634278/matt-fitpatrick-northwestern-golf-us-amateur-champion

[dreich54311]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1376973040' post='7710408']
Other than a very funny clip, the last few exchanges have pretty much derailed an otherwise interesting thread. Take the silly argument about hand dominance to another thread already. If you can't point to something specific that relates to the topic of the thread, then have a PM conversation about the whole dominance idea...

Just a thought.

Anyone else have something interesting to share about "untapped knowledge" that scratch golfers have??

If you think a thread has been "derailed"" and is no longer interesting to you why don't YOU go to another thread. Who nominated you to decide who should or should not be allowed to post on any thread. It's my understanding that these forums are not restricted and anyone can post on them. If you don't like what a certain person posts then don't read it.

The point is that there is no "untapped knowledge" about the swing that scratch golfers have--in fact they are likely to have less knowledge than other golfers, particularly those handicap golfers who have struggled with their games over several years. The game comes naturally to the scratch golfer and therefore he does not need to have any knowledge about the swing. In fact if he tries become knowledgeable and understand his swing it may just screw him up. There are numerous instance where this has happened to tour pros.

Be careful when you say an argument is "silly". It may just be that you are too stupid to understand it.

Also, you may be over estimating your capabilities when you make the statement that you are capable of having a "thought"
[/quote]

[isaacbm]

[quote name='dreich54311' timestamp='1376977363' post='7710688']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1376973040' post='7710408']
Other than a very funny clip, the last few exchanges have pretty much derailed an otherwise interesting thread. Take the silly argument about hand dominance to another thread already. If you can't point to something specific that relates to the topic of the thread, then have a PM conversation about the whole dominance idea...

Just a thought.

Anyone else have something interesting to share about "untapped knowledge" that scratch golfers have??

If you think a thread has been "derailed"" and is no longer interesting to you why don't YOU go to another thread. Who nominated you to decide who should or should not be allowed to post on any thread. It's my understanding that these forums are not restricted and anyone can post on them. If you don't like what a certain person posts then don't read it.

The point is that there is no "untapped knowledge" about the swing that scratch golfers have--in fact they are likely to have less knowledge than other golfers, particularly those handicap golfers who have struggled with their games over several years. The game comes naturally to the scratch golfer and therefore he does not need to have any knowledge about the swing. In fact if he tries become knowledgeable and understand his swing it may just screw him up. There are numerous instance where this has happened to tour pros.

Be careful when you say an argument is "silly". It may just be that you are too stupid to understand it.

Also, you may be over estimating your capabilities when you make the statement that you are capable of having a "thought"
[/quote]
[/quote]The point was that an argument in itself is "silly". If you're having a debate, then state your case. People either want to discuss it or they don't. If the "debate" gets to the point where it's just arguing between two people, then it's polite to take it private rather then resort to name calling, etc.

As far as me being too "stupid" to understand it, see the above sentence. If you're not getting through to someone, has resorting to name calling and badgering ever helped your case?

Seems like you're pretty defensive. All I said was basically " lets crank it down a bit and bring it back on topic."

What ever though, feel free to keep calling me names. It really makes me want to listen to your opinions....

[stryper]

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1376975139' post='7710562']
^^^^^ this..... its like any master level skill set for a job. some things can only be learned thru repetitive experience. a proficient master mechanic or pilot only get to where doing things properly is second nature to them by putting in thousands of hours where those situations that call for those skills are at the fore front of their attention.

nobody is a 3 round a month, 60 range balls once a month + cap. getting a low cap (scratch or better) requires consistent use of skills to make correct situational decisions on the fly. the skills used for this game and getting good at it definitely fall under the two phrases "perfect practice makes perfect" and " if you dont use it, you lose it". getting there and having that unconscious situational expertise requires a different level of commitment and for most all of us that get there, sacrifice. and that's not something everyone wants to go thru for golf
[/quote]

^^^^^ this too ^^^^^

I'm not there yet as a mid-single, but I'm working my a** off on the things I need to do to get those final few strokes off thecard. And it's a slow, tedious process that requires I do things that aren't necessarily fun right now. But when I do those things, eventually I start to see hints of progress and can then build from there. That, as opposed to reading a tip in a magazine, or changing a particular technique on the course, expecting that "aha" moment when it all finally comes together.

When Hogan suggested the secret was in the dirt, I think this is what he meant...you just have to work hard, get dirty, and grind it out until you figure it out. And I think, ultimately that's what the best golfers know. Although some may catch on quicker than others, there are no shortcuts.

[ThunderBuzzworth]

Better players are able to take the "flight of the day" and play it confidently. If I go out to warm up pre round and notice I am hitting something other than my normal flight I can adjust to it pretty quickly and play it all day and shoot a good score. I cant tell you how many times I have seen higher cappers go out and fight their "flight of the day" all freaking day long as if they are so stubborn that plain as day evidence right in front of their face cant even get them to even aim little different.

[dreich54311]

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1376975139' post='7710562']
^^^^^ this..... its like any master level skill set for a job. some things can only be learned thru repetitive experience. a proficient master mechanic or pilot only get to where doing things properly is second nature to them by putting in thousands of hours where those situations that call for those skills are at the fore front of their attention.

nobody is a 3 round a month, 60 range balls once a month + cap. getting a low cap (scratch or better) requires consistent use of skills to make correct situational decisions on the fly. the skills used for this game and getting good at it definitely fall under the two phrases "perfect practice makes perfect" and " if you dont use it, you lose it". getting there and having that unconscious situational expertise requires a different level of commitment and for most all of us that get there, sacrifice. and that's not something everyone wants to go thru for golf

I disagree with comparing skill in golf to skill developed by a pilot or a master mechanic. A very good golfer such as a tour pro is first of all an athlete like a Major League Baseball player or any other top level sports performer. A very high percentage of their proficiency is innate natural talent with practice of their skill much less important. The average Joe can practice golf every hour of the day all his life and he won't get any where near the skill level of a tour pro.
[/quote]

[Ezgolfer]

[i][b]A very high percentage of their proficiency is innate natural talent with practice of their skill much less important. [/b][/i]

Yeah tell that to Ben Hogan and Moe Norman who practiced till there hands bled ....

[renrew]

I think that scratch handicaps have more feel, either obtained by practice and playing often, they are also way more creative which opens the door to a large number of ways to execute a shot. If i had to take a guess for my own game, the one thing that stands out is creativity, i'm not talking about slicing a wedge over a bunker spinning it down the slope towards the flag, but from tight lies where it seems impossible to get it anywhere near the flag scratch golfers will find a way.

Just last week, i hooked a ball into the woods for 2 on a par 5, ball came to rest next to a tree, and i had no line directly to the flag, also no full swing, what i did was to hit a punch with a 3 iron, roll it out the woods, through the green side bunker and let the ball take the slope and work itself towards the hole. I really think that you can only get so good with your game from the tee and fairway, but you can always improve a heck of a lot with difficult shots and lies, and this is where scratch players shine in my opinion.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan' timestamp='1375155636' post='7566216']
I don't know if it is just me but I feel as though most scratch or better players have a knowledge for the game of golf...
[/quote]
sorry but I didnt read all of the thread. Im doing the lazy poster thing. Its popular in todays world wide web forums

answer? NO. "most" scratch players dont understand angles, speed, planes, release patterns, positions, muscle tension ala biomechanics, how their swing works, etc.

absolutley not. I know more about the golfswing than I know about spelling. And Im not a scratch player (11 HCP). Correlation???? Better players know less than you give them credit for. Tour pros know enough to validate their ballflights (as explained by their coaches...so like the media...a player only knows what his/her coach tells them). Ask 100 different tour pros how they draw the ball and you will see what I mean. As a disclaimer I have not personally spoken to 100 different tour pros. But I expect that it will validate my post.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1376974213' post='7710516']
they just react to the situation rather than try to think about it from a million different angles. I realize that golf is not AS reactionary as a sport like baseball, but maybe it is on a subtle level.
[/quote]

wrong Isaac. If you dont understand the different angles then thinking in terms of angles and perspectives is a bad idea. And that ball is laying there not moving. You choose a ballflight/shotshape/target. You pick your poison and pull the trigger. Nobody throughs the ball to you.

Ironically youre a scratch golfer...

EDIT: I like taking peoples posts out of context lol

[J_Tizzle]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1377090315' post='7718218']
[quote name='DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan' timestamp='1375155636' post='7566216']
I don't know if it is just me but I feel as though most scratch or better players have a knowledge for the game of golf...
[/quote]
sorry but I didnt read all of the thread. Im doing the lazy poster thing. Its popular in todays world wide web forums

answer? NO. "most" scratch players dont understand angles, speed, planes, release patterns, positions, muscle tension ala biomechanics, how their swing works, etc.

absolutley not. I know more about the golfswing than I know about spelling. And Im not a scratch player (11 HCP). Correlation???? Better players know less than you give them credit for. Tour pros know enough to validate their ballflights (as explained by their coaches...so like the media...a player only knows what his/her coach tells them). Ask 100 different tour pros how they draw the ball and you will see what I mean. As a disclaimer I have not personally spoken to 100 different tour pros. But I expect that it will validate my post.
[/quote]

You're post about the "how pros draw the ball" is misleading. Sure to draw the ball you impart draw spin on it and blah blah blah and that is technically how you do it. But I think the knowledge that a scratch guy has is that they know how they impart the spin on the ball. I guarantee the way I'd describe how I draw the ball is different than a lot of people, but everyone's approach accomplishes the same thing, imparts draw spin on the ball and makes it turn from right to left in the air.

One thing the scratch golfers really understand is how to fix whatever they are doing wrong on the fly. So while I might not "technically" know how to fix my loose driver, I know what I need to do on the course to take corrective actions and keep my score for that day in that "scratch" range.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1377090633' post='7718244']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1376974213' post='7710516']
they just react to the situation rather than try to think about it from a million different angles. I realize that golf is not AS reactionary as a sport like baseball, but maybe it is on a subtle level.
[/quote]

wrong Isaac. If you dont understand the different angles then thinking in terms of angles and perspectives is a bad idea. And that ball is laying there not moving. You choose a ballflight/shotshape/target. You pick your poison and pull the trigger. Nobody throughs the ball to you.

Ironically youre a scratch golfer...

EDIT: I like taking peoples posts out of context lol
[/quote]

I read this s couple of times and have no idea what you're talking about. Have no idea why it's ironic that I'm a scratch.

[tembolo1284]

I'm lost again.

[Ezgolfer]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1377115277' post='7720820']
I'm lost again.
[/quote]

Scratch players are a confused bunch....

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='J-Tizzle' timestamp='1377101443' post='7719372']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1377090315' post='7718218']
[quote name='DoYouKnowTheMuffinMan' timestamp='1375155636' post='7566216']
I don't know if it is just me but I feel as though most scratch or better players have a knowledge for the game of golf...
[/quote]
sorry but I didnt read all of the thread. Im doing the lazy poster thing. Its popular in todays world wide web forums

answer? NO. "most" scratch players dont understand angles, speed, planes, release patterns, positions, muscle tension ala biomechanics, how their swing works, etc.

absolutley not. I know more about the golfswing than I know about spelling. And Im not a scratch player (11 HCP). Correlation???? Better players know less than you give them credit for. Tour pros know enough to validate their ballflights (as explained by their coaches...so like the media...a player only knows what his/her coach tells them). Ask 100 different tour pros how they draw the ball and you will see what I mean. As a disclaimer I have not personally spoken to 100 different tour pros. But I expect that it will validate my post.
[/quote]

You're post about the "how pros draw the ball" is misleading. Sure to draw the ball you impart draw spin on it and blah blah blah and that is technically how you do it. But I think the knowledge that a scratch guy has is that they know how they impart the spin on the ball. I guarantee the way I'd describe how I draw the ball is different than a lot of people, but everyone's approach accomplishes the same thing, imparts draw spin on the ball and makes it turn from right to left in the air.

One thing the scratch golfers really understand is how to fix whatever they are doing wrong on the fly. So while I might not "technically" know how to fix my loose driver, I know what I need to do on the course to take corrective actions and keep my score for that day in that "scratch" range.
[/quote]

Great post. Just keep in mind horizontal gear effect...the more you consciously turn the face the less it creates draw spin. A draw is more about controlling baseline than face angle (aka get the path more right for right handed player). But dont forget bottom d-plane vector and vertical swing plane etc.

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1377104572' post='7719754']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1377090633' post='7718244']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1376974213' post='7710516']
they just react to the situation rather than try to think about it from a million different angles. I realize that golf is not AS reactionary as a sport like baseball, but maybe it is on a subtle level.
[/quote]

wrong Isaac. If you dont understand the different angles then thinking in terms of angles and perspectives is a bad idea. And that ball is laying there not moving. You choose a ballflight/shotshape/target. You pick your poison and pull the trigger. Nobody throughs the ball to you.

Ironically youre a scratch golfer...

EDIT: I like taking peoples posts out of context lol
[/quote]

I read this s couple of times and have no idea what you're talking about. Have no idea why it's ironic that I'm a scratch.
[/quote]

Vodka. Thats the missing variable in your assessment of my post. I read some posts and chose to respond to you without reading your entire group of messages here. Its not ironic that youre scratch. 11 is actually my shoe size. My HCP? I havent posted a round in forever. My HCP says 11.2 and Im trying to implement hip extension pieces in the bs so I can transition with adequate ground forces and come down TSP. OMG I hate how I see this game lol. clownhat smiley face.

[J_Tizzle]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1377184399' post='7725332']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1377104572' post='7719754']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1377090633' post='7718244']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1376974213' post='7710516']
they just react to the situation rather than try to think about it from a million different angles. I realize that golf is not AS reactionary as a sport like baseball, but maybe it is on a subtle level.
[/quote]

wrong Isaac. If you dont understand the different angles then thinking in terms of angles and perspectives is a bad idea. And that ball is laying there not moving. You choose a ballflight/shotshape/target. You pick your poison and pull the trigger. Nobody throughs the ball to you.

Ironically youre a scratch golfer...

EDIT: I like taking peoples posts out of context lol
[/quote]

I read this s couple of times and have no idea what you're talking about. Have no idea why it's ironic that I'm a scratch.
[/quote]

Vodka. Thats the missing variable in your assessment of my post. I read some posts and chose to respond to you without reading your entire group of messages here. Its not ironic that youre scratch. 11 is actually my shoe size. My HCP? I havent posted a round in forever. My HCP says 11.2 and Im trying to implement hip extension pieces in the bs so I can transition with adequate ground forces and come down TSP. OMG I hate how I see this game lol. clownhat smiley face.
[/quote]

Can't tell if serious or trolling...

[crapula]

[quote name='J-Tizzle' timestamp='1377197128' post='7726694']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1377184399' post='7725332']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1377104572' post='7719754']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1377090633' post='7718244']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1376974213' post='7710516']
they just react to the situation rather than try to think about it from a million different angles. I realize that golf is not AS reactionary as a sport like baseball, but maybe it is on a subtle level.
[/quote]

wrong Isaac. If you dont understand the different angles then thinking in terms of angles and perspectives is a bad idea. And that ball is laying there not moving. You choose a ballflight/shotshape/target. You pick your poison and pull the trigger. Nobody throughs the ball to you.

Ironically youre a scratch golfer...

EDIT: I like taking peoples posts out of context lol
[/quote]

I read this s couple of times and have no idea what you're talking about. Have no idea why it's ironic that I'm a scratch.
[/quote]

Vodka. Thats the missing variable in your assessment of my post. I read some posts and chose to respond to you without reading your entire group of messages here. Its not ironic that youre scratch. 11 is actually my shoe size. My HCP? I havent posted a round in forever. My HCP says 11.2 and Im trying to implement hip extension pieces in the bs so I can transition with adequate ground forces and come down TSP. OMG I hate how I see this game lol. clownhat smiley face.
[/quote]

Can't tell if serious or trolling...
[/quote]

Either way it's confusing. I'm not scratch but the times I have shot par I only have one swing thought and usually it's something very simple like, left shoulder. That's it, not even left shoulder high or low or out or down, just left shoulder. Another time my thought was right palm, but not the words right palm, just thinking about my right palm. Usually I just think about the center of the clubface.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1377184399' post='7725332']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1377104572' post='7719754']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1377090633' post='7718244']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1376974213' post='7710516']
they just react to the situation rather than try to think about it from a million different angles. I realize that golf is not AS reactionary as a sport like baseball, but maybe it is on a subtle level.
[/quote]

wrong Isaac. If you dont understand the different angles then thinking in terms of angles and perspectives is a bad idea. And that ball is laying there not moving. You choose a ballflight/shotshape/target. You pick your poison and pull the trigger. Nobody throughs the ball to you.

Ironically youre a scratch golfer...

EDIT: I like taking peoples posts out of context lol
[/quote]

I read this s couple of times and have no idea what you're talking about. Have no idea why it's ironic that I'm a scratch.
[/quote]

Vodka. Thats the missing variable in your assessment of my post. I read some posts and chose to respond to you without reading your entire group of messages here. Its not ironic that youre scratch. 11 is actually my shoe size. My HCP? I havent posted a round in forever. My HCP says 11.2 and[b] Im trying to implement hip extension pieces in the bs so I can transition with adequate ground forces and come down TSP. [/b] OMG I hate how I see this game lol. clownhat smiley face.
[/quote]the bold type is some pretty great stuff! Pass the vodka!

[westchester bomber]

You have to be a naturally gifted athlete to be good at golf. I've seen 8-10 year olds who hit it better than someone who has been playing for 30 years. For sure practice and learning how the golf swing works are all crucial but I can tell by looking at someone swing a club for the first time in their life what sort or potential they have. Golf is just like any other sport, some people got it and some don't.