Rounds with a Vintage Bag

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1383400254' post='8092068']
Well the driver generally sucks the fun out of golf for me regardless of its size and/or molecular composition. But my thinking is that the persimmon is the path to improvement for me. Much like blades vs SGI, the greater precision required forces me to make a smoother, more balanced swing rather than swinging out of my shoes.

It was interesting to find that at least under some conditions, I don't have to give up any significant distance if I choose to game wood. My long hitting friend met me at the driving range yesterday desiring to try out my persimmons. He came away with the same conclusions regarding distance; that is, the lower ball flight and [u][b]spin characteristics[/b][/u] combine for roll outs that fairly well compensate for the reduced carry...at least under ideal circumstances.
[/quote]

Just wanted to comment on the spin aspect of persimmon...

It's often said persimmons produce less spin. How much, you ask? Well, Golf Mag did something with Padraig Harrington, having him play a round of golf a few years ago, with 50 year old clubs. They listed the assorted Trackman results, which I'll paste below. They note he was hitting into a 10-15 mph headwind, so the distances are shorter than they otherwise would be

[b]The Stats: 2009 | 1959[/b]
[b]Club Speed:[/b] 112.8 mph | 105.4 mph
[b]Ball Speed:[/b] 169.2 mph | 157.1 mph
[b]Smash Factor*:[/b] 1.50 | 1.49 mph
[b]Launch Angle:[/b] 12.1 | 11.5
[b]Spin Rate:[/b] 2,527 rpm | 1,690 rpm
[b]Maximum Height:[/b] 43.5 yards | 27.2 yards
[b]Carry:[/b] 254.5 yards | 228.3 yards
[b]Total Length:[/b] 265.3 yards | 259.4 yards

[left][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]His lower carry is because he's not using enough loft, I'm guessing the loft in play would have worked much better with a higher spin, wound ball, and produced a longer shot, otherwise.[/background][/left]


[left][color=#000000][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]It's something I've noticed myself; I've strugged with spin off the tee quite a bit over the years.[/background][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]The whole piece is at this link: http://www.golf.com/equipment/i-can-break-par-strong50-year-old-clubsstrong-no-problem[/background][/color][/left]


[left][color=#000000][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]So yeah, want lower spin? Persimmon is maybe the key. [/background][/color][/left]

[MikeG]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1383266149' post='8086226']
Scooter, if I came off as pedantic then I apologize. I remain convinced, however, [i]that the only impediment to my golf performance is not the equipment but the swing that I put on it. [/i]And I like the place that the aesthetic beauty, feel, and history of the classic clubs puts me in. I definitely feel like it enhances my enjoyment of the game.
[/quote]

Holden I was thinking about this post in its entirety the past couple days as I played. Wild driving and schizophrenic fairway woods/putting are my Achilles in this game. Got in a quick 11 holes after work yesterday and drove the ball horribly over the first 9 holes. It was my first consistently bad day with the persimmon driver. Teeing off on the 10th hole I remembered my dad's advice regarding the driver when I was a kid..."make the same swing that you do with all your other clubs. The tee and forward ball position will take care of getting it in the air." Of course the old man was right. I've found with the shorter/heavier shafted persimmon driver that I can maintain that swing thought without making all the goofy extreme reverse K/uppercut swing motions that I find myself doing with the modern driver. Drove it much better today keeping Dad's advice in mind. Wish you continued good progress.

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1383408856' post='8092468']
Just wanted to comment on the spin aspect of persimmon...

It's often said persimmons produce less spin. How much, you ask? Well, Golf Mag did something with Padraig Harrington, having him play a round of golf a few years ago, with 50 year old clubs. They listed the assorted Trackman results, which I'll paste below. They note he was hitting into a 10-15 mph headwind, so the distances are shorter than they otherwise would be

[b]The Stats: 2009 | 1959[/b]
[b]Club Speed:[/b] 112.8 mph | 105.4 mph
[b]Ball Speed:[/b] 169.2 mph | 157.1 mph
[b]Smash Factor*:[/b] 1.50 | 1.49 mph
[b]Launch Angle:[/b] 12.1 | 11.5
[b]Spin Rate:[/b] 2,527 rpm | 1,690 rpm
[b]Maximum Height:[/b] 43.5 yards | 27.2 yards
[b]Carry:[/b] 254.5 yards | 228.3 yards
[b]Total Length:[/b] 265.3 yards | 259.4 yards

His lower carry is because he's not using enough loft, I'm guessing the loft in play would have worked much better with a higher spin, wound ball, and produced a longer shot, otherwise.


[color=#000000]It's something I've noticed myself; I've strugged with spin off the tee quite a bit over the years.[/color]


[color=#000000]The whole piece is at this link: http://www.golf.com/equipment/i-can-break-par-strong50-year-old-clubsstrong-no-problem[/color]


[color=#000000]So yeah, want lower spin? Persimmon is maybe the key. [/color]
[/quote]

Good stuff, thanks for the link. There's a couple of really interesting bits of information in the trackman data:

1) The smash factor between the two clubs is virtually identical, and that's shocking to me given the difference in COR between them. Smash factor is the "measurement of a golfer's ability to translate clubhead speed into ball speed with a given golf club" and in this instance the 50 year old persimmon appears to be just as efficient. With persimmon having an estimated COR of .78 +/- compared to .825 +/- of the modern I would've expected a smash factor around 1.40.

2)The spin rate of persimmon was roughly 2/3's that of the modern. Obviously, that's the big reason for the lesser carry/longer rollout paradigm but lower spin also means less sidespin, which should translate to more fairways hit.

3) Despite swinging the persimmon at just 93.4% of the velocity of the Titanium (105.4/112.8), he still generates 97.8% of the total distance (259.4/265.3)...which tells me that if he had swung the two clubs at the same velocity the persimmon total distance would've been [i]greater[/i] than the modern...because of the lower spin rate that causes better rollout. So in this case, the persimmon was actually [i]more efficient at generating total distance given the respective swingspeeds[/i]. Persimmon generated 2.46 yards/mph while the modern was 2.31 yards/mph.


There's no mention of the shaft weight or length in his modern driver, and that is undoubtedly part of the difference in swingspeed. Another factor hurting the persimmon is his unfamiliarity with it, which can be overcome with practice. The third factor that I see is the modern's huge face allows one to be a lot more aggressive with the club, something that a pro will be able to really take advantage of. This is a clear advantage of the modern, though it can also really lead to some sloppy mechanics for amateurs.

I'd really like to see this experiment done again, but this time with clubs that have matching shafts and with the pro having a week to practice with the persimmon. And I'd also like to see how it plays out in various wind conditions: upwind, downwind, crosswind, no wind.

Or even better, use an Iron Byron type of machine to compare the clubs, and show the results at various swingspeeds, say 80 mph up to 120, using 5 or 10 mph increments.

But the real headline here to me is this: "I'M NOT LOSING SIGNIFICANT DISTANCE BY GAMING PERSIMMON."

[birly-shirly]

Nice post and link NRJyzr.

It seems amazing that the persimmon only loses out some 6 yards in total distance - although the headwind conditions might flatter the persimmon in this case.

The difference in drive height is pretty stark. It would be interesting to see how well the loft on the persimmon club fitted him. How about that 45yrd apex with his modern club. Is that high? I though, as a rough rule of thumb, most pros' trajectory peaks around 90 feet.

Also really noticeable how the swingspeed jumps almost 8mph between old school and modern drivers. That must in itself drive the spin up considerably.

Lastly, 5mph difference in swing speed on the irons is more than I'd have expected. I do wonder whether Padraig was having to swing more carefully/precisely - either because he was conscious of the old clubs being less forgiving, or because he was having to adjust for unfamiliar/poor-fitting lie angles.

As for the smash factors - I think that tells us that pros really do middle it more often than not. If you look at smash factors across the tour - most guys are averaging 1.48 or higher.

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='MikeG' timestamp='1383437104' post='8093862']

Holden I was thinking about this post in its entirety the past couple days as I played. Wild driving and schizophrenic fairway woods/putting are my Achilles in this game. Got in a quick 11 holes after work yesterday and drove the ball horribly over the first 9 holes. It was my first consistently bad day with the persimmon driver. Teeing off on the 10th hole I remembered my dad's advice regarding the driver when I was a kid...[b]"make the same swing that you do with all your other clubs. The tee and forward ball position will take care of getting it in the air." Of course the old man was right. I've found with the shorter/heavier shafted persimmon driver that I can maintain that swing thought without making all the goofy extreme reverse K/uppercut swing motions that I find myself doing with the modern driver.[/b] Drove it much better today keeping Dad's advice in mind. Wish you continued good progress.
[/quote]

Bravo, Mike. This came up in a conversation at lunch with my friend before we went to the range. He commented about how it's so difficult to have a great day off the tee and at the same time, have a great day with the irons. Its always one or the other, and this guy is a very good ball-striker, always shooting in the 70's. Well, yeah, that's because we are talking about two different swings, or at least that's what it feels like to me.

To be effective with the irons you must employ a negative angle of attack (descending blow), but to hit the modern 460cc driver you have to do just the opposite. If you're like me and don't get to play/practice 6 days a week its difficult to maintain two different swings. Using the persimmon and teeing it low (using 2 1/4" tees so I [i]can't[/i] tee it high) it feels like I'm using the same swing all day.

I considered it a profitable trade to give up a little tee distance in exchange for more fairways (and probably a fair trade to give up significant distance), but I'm pretty jazzed to discover in the last few days that I'm not really giving up that much.

[MikeG]

Holden I've noticed the biggest differences in accuracy and forgiveness between the two affect me the most. I'm definitely more accurate with the persimmon/steel over my Death Star/graphite driver. Offline hits usually manage to stay in play with the persimmon...with the modern driver I can hit some big drives (relatively speaking, of course. I'm no gorilla off the tee), but I can hit it off the planet any time/any place, even on "good" driving days. Like I mentioned in my previous post, I drove it much better yesterday except for one horrible swing that resulted in an ugly heel/thin drive that traveled all of 125 yards or so...I have to cold top a modern driver to do that.

Anyway, to stick to the original subject of this thread, I played my first weekend with all classics in the bag: Bullseye putter, Top Flite SW, Hogan irons, MacGregor 3 wd/driver. Played an easy public course at 6500yds yesterday and split the nines between the '73 Apex irons (front 9) and the Redlines (back 9). Both iron sets performed really well. Thin 4 iron on the 5th hole from 175 was wet. Reloaded from the same spot and finished pin-high 25 feet left of the pin (second player's always better I guess). It was my only double of the day. The rest of the holes were pars on the front. Made one bogey, one birdie on the back for a 74, which was my best score ever on that course. The persimmon hurt me on two short par 5s. Skanked one drive and hit a decent drive that just rode the light wind and left me with 230+ to the green. Normally a good fade gives me about 170 to that green. Turned two easy birdies into pars. Missed 8 greens on the day, but except for the previously mentioned 4 iron and a fat 5 iron on the back, all the other misses led to easy up/downs from the fringe and light rough around the green.

Played the home course today. Just one of those Midwest Fall days...steady 20-25 mph winds with gusts to 35 or so, temps in the upper 40s/low 50s and leafs swallowing good and bad shots. Did well to keep it under 90 (87 with a little wedge/putter magic). A guy asked me how I did after the round. I smiled and said "only lost 3 balls...pretty good day for me considering those conditions."

Final impressions of the first vintage (although I don't consider Redlines vintage...classics, definitely) weekend: The persimmon woods vs moderns is almost a push on courses less than 6600 (or so) yards. Even if I play a modern set, the Redline 2 iron stays in the bag. Bye bye hybrid. Both iron sets were a pleasure to play. I don't feel like I'm giving up a thing playing the Redlines compared to a modern set. Plus they look much cooler and feel better. I could play the '73s as well, but I'd give the Redlines a small nod over the older Apexes due to the sole design of the short and mid irons. The Top Flite SW is a strange animal. Good out of the sand, good chipping/pitching with grass under the ball. Not good from tight lies or full swings. Definitely a keeper, but I could see adding a low bounce wedge to help out on some shots.

Scooter, if you're reading this, that Bullseye you pointed me to on Ebay turned out to be a "La Femme" model. Hah....and I sucked less with The Lady than I normally do with the Redwood or Odyssey putters I normally play. The Bullseye puts the stroke more into my hands instead of the arms and shoulders...somehow that worked better for me. At least for now.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1383479614' post='8095206']
There's a couple of really interesting bits of information in the trackman data: 1) The smash factor between the two clubs is virtually identical, and that's shocking to me given the difference in COR between them. Smash factor is the "measurement of a golfer's ability to translate clubhead speed into ball speed with a given golf club" and in this instance the 50 year old persimmon appears to be just as efficient. With persimmon having an estimated COR of .78 +/- compared to .825 +/- of the modern I would've expected a smash factor around 1.40.
[/quote]
I think that says a lot about the perception of COR and its effect on the tee game. IMHO of course.

[quote]
Despite swinging the persimmon at just 93.4% of the velocity of the Titanium (105.4/112.8), he still generates 97.8% of the total distance (259.4/265.3)...which tells me that if he had swung the two clubs at the same velocity the persimmon total distance would've been [i]greater[/i] than the modern...because of the lower spin rate that causes better rollout. So in this case, the persimmon was actually [i]more efficient at generating total distance given the respective swingspeeds[/i]. Persimmon generated 2.46 yards/mph while the modern was 2.31 yards/mph.[/quote]
I'm not sure we can take those sorts of absolutes from this piece, particularly with the headwind being a factor. His lower trajectory with lower spin with the modern driver will have given him an advantage over his higher trajectory with greater spin produced by his modern, in the bag, driver.

[quote]
There's no mention of the shaft weight or length in his modern driver, and that is undoubtedly part of the difference in swingspeed. Another factor hurting the persimmon is his unfamiliarity with it, which can be overcome with practice. The third factor that I see is the modern's huge face allows one to be a lot more aggressive with the club, something that a pro will be able to really take advantage of. This is a clear advantage of the modern, though it can also really lead to some sloppy mechanics for amateurs.[/quote]
It would be interesting to compare the specs, but I think their lack of inclusion is intentional, on many levels. There really aren't that many folks who pay attention to that sort of thing, after all; we golf nerd forumites are the lunatic fringe of the golf populace.


[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1383483096' post='8095300'] Nice post and link NRJyzr. It seems amazing that the persimmon only loses out some 6 yards in total distance - although the headwind conditions might flatter the persimmon in this case. The difference in drive height is pretty stark. It would be interesting to see how well the loft on the persimmon club fitted him. How about that 45yrd apex with his modern club. Is that high? I though, as a rough rule of thumb, most pros' trajectory peaks around 90 feet. Also really noticeable how the swingspeed jumps almost 8mph between old school and modern drivers. That must in itself drive the spin up considerably. Lastly, 5mph difference in swing speed on the irons is more than I'd have expected. I do wonder whether Padraig was having to swing more carefully/precisely - either because he was conscious of the old clubs being less forgiving, or because he was having to adjust for unfamiliar/poor-fitting lie angles. As for the smash factors - I think that tells us that pros really do middle it more often than not. If you look at smash factors across the tour - most guys are averaging 1.48 or higher. [/quote]

I do think he was swinging more carefully with the flatter, and shorter, irons. And may have been doing so with the driver, as well. Obviously, it's all speculation.

I think the higher apex with his Ti driver could be related to the wind. Bit of the old upshoot, maybe? <shrug>

From my results with persimmon, I didn't see much distance loss using them, compared to a similar length driver. My first persimmon was a 45" Louisville Smart Driver, I could hit that thing pretty far, compared to my then favorite Ti driver. Pretty even, actually. Maxfli A10 ball, those were the days <sigh>. LOL

The smaller clubhead and perceived lack of forgiveness is maybe the biggest problem in advancing the persimmon cause. As well as big OEM marketing budgets.

The more I think about it, the more I think I wonder why I haven't just gone all persimmon, all the time. It seems to help my game, to be honest; the biggest issue is finding shafts that actually fit me. I could reshaft what I have, but it might be cheaper to just buy the four piece set I've seen with 7.5 Precision shafts. <shrug>

I could have saved quite a bit of money this year, with the new toys I've bought. LOL

[HoldenCornfield]

Perhaps the greater mass of the persimmon driver helps make up for the lesser COR during the collision of ball and clubface, resulting in the similar smash factor. For example, my Hogan deep face driver is 378 grams while my Wishon, before reshafting with steel, was 324. So in my case the persimmon's mass was approx 16% greater than the modern. Maybe someone smarter than me can determine if that is relevant, and if so, how much.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1383531670' post='8098238']
Perhaps the greater mass of the persimmon driver helps make up for the lesser COR during the collision of ball and clubface, resulting in the similar smash factor. For example, my Hogan deep face driver is 378 grams while my Wishon, before reshafting with steel, was 324. So in my case the persimmon's mass was approx 16% greater than the modern. Maybe someone smarter than me can determine if that is relevant, and if so, how much.
[/quote]

Only the mass of the clubhead matters with respect to the collision, the shaft weight doesn't come into play. It's in how the player generates speed where the shaft weight enters the equation, and it's not always as it might seem on the surface.

[oldschoolrocker]

MG & HC,
Your dialogue with regard to the same swing, woods and irons, has sent me to a period of reflection about the similarities and differences between my own swing, woods versus irons, persimmon and vintage, titanium and modern.
Mostly a bad thing when I delve too deeply inside my swing, but, in this case I believe the rewards of the outcome will provide justification.
I had never given it much thought before, but, with the persimmons my tendency is more commonality between the woods, even off the tee, and the irons, than with a 460cc smashing pumpkin. Especially if the conditions of the day allow my shot of choice to be a fade. The grip, stance, ball position, and amount of choke up on the club is far more consistent than when I play my normal trap draw with the modern irons and feel like I am freewheeling with the driver.
Geez, I feel like I am having a back to the future moment. It worked well enough back in the day, what drove me to change?

[HoldenCornfield]

Its part of the elusive beauty of golf, OSR. Its a game for 'strivers,' we're all striving to obtain some measure of mastery over it. Occasionally we'll catch a glimpse of it, possibly even touch it for a brief moment, or if you're really lucky, an entire round.

But it always slips away...always.

Then its back to the hunt with a new treasure map, maybe a new instrument or two. This might be the one!

And the quest begins anew.

[HoldenCornfield]

How corny is that? Ha

[oldschoolrocker]

HC,
I don't think you will find the majority of us in this forum feeling that post was tirelessly sentimental. Quite to the contrary for anyone with the number of rodeos under their belt that most of us here have.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

HoldenC,
Corny? Heck, I live in the Midwest. I am used to corn. Always on the lookout for a"new map."I have said before that you never EVER own this slippery elusive game. The best you can hope for is an occasional long term lease. by long term lease I mean keeping your A-game for a couple of rounds or so.
Intoxicatingly addictive.
Some say it is better than sex...If I could remember having game and having sex I could voice my personal opinion.
Uncle bob

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='MikeG' timestamp='1383525510' post='8097728']
Scooter, if you're reading this, that Bullseye you pointed me to on Ebay turned out to be a "La Femme" model. Hah....and I sucked less with The Lady than I normally do with the Redwood or Odyssey putters I normally play. The Bullseye puts the stroke more into my hands instead of the arms and shoulders...somehow that worked better for me. At least for now.
[/quote]

Mike, exactly the same as my experience.

I do find a lot of us older golfers tend to be more "hands" players....hitting a draw, closing the face early or late, hitting a 1/2 pitch from 40 yards - these are all "touch" shots or "hands" shots, all developed in the days before the super-MOI cinderblock on a stick putters, or laser rangefinders, or 64* wedges.

Back when we used to play the game, not play equipment.

Glad to hear the lady is working out for you. There is something about not needing a perfect shoulder pendulum, and instead putting with your hands and arms that is somewhat liberating. Also, hitting the ball wherever you want on the face is also liberating. And using "feel" not "perfect technique" brings putting back to what it always essentially was....using a club to put the ball in the hole.

Enjoying the driver/death star/smashing pumpkin vs. persimmon discussion. Just a thought.....if the lack of spin off the persimmon generates less backspin, a flatter trajectory, and more roll out, then wouldn't a low spin, lower lofted, longer shafted death star/graphite combo (LOL, love this term Mike) with a more forgiving face deliver even more distance? Could it be argued that modern gives no advantage over persimmon when the player is playing too weak a flex/soft a tip/high a loft driver? However, if the player is fit correctly with a correct flex/loft/tip/length combo that there is no way persimmon can compete?

Just a thought.

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1383592003' post='8100720']
Some say it is better than sex...If I could remember having game and having sex I could voice my personal opinion.
Uncle bob
[/quote]

I was trying to describe to the wife the other week that 4 wood shot I hit from 207 yards to 8 inches and I was struggling to put it into words when she said, "So, you had a golfgasm?".

Hmmm, yeah that's it.

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1383601965' post='8101524']
Enjoying the driver/death star/smashing pumpkin vs. persimmon discussion. Just a thought.....if the lack of spin off the persimmon generates less backspin, a flatter trajectory, and more roll out, then wouldn't a low spin, lower lofted, longer shafted death star/graphite combo (LOL, love this term Mike) with a more forgiving face deliver even more distance? Could it be argued that modern gives no advantage over persimmon when the player is playing too weak a flex/soft a tip/high a loft driver? However, if the player is fit correctly with a correct flex/loft/tip/length combo that there is no way persimmon can compete?

[/quote]

The persimmon can [i]compete[/i], but its never going to win. My point, which I probably got a little carried away with, was that its much closer than I originally supposed. I started out with the idea that I was going to have to give up 25 yards....well, I do, if I'm only counting [i]carry[/i], but the extra rollout of persimmon brings it down to 10 or so. I can live with that.

At least until my next fever of distance envy.

But the inherent design differences are what lead to the different spin rates, imo. The persimmon is solid, with the mass evenly distributed in three dimensions. With the hollow titanium the weight can be distributed at the discretion of the designer. The modern philosophy is 'low and back' to lower the COG to increase launch angle. I guess you can manipulate that somewhat with the shaft, but as someone alluded to earlier, the collision of ball and club is where its at.

I was watching Fred Couples yesterday, among others, and concentrating on their driver shots. I saw several that carried maybe 260-275 yards in the air but then landed like an 6 iron, releasing maybe 4-8 yards before stopping. And that's not unusual anymore.

As I thought about it some more, I realized I NEVER play hard fairways anymore. Even two years ago when the South was in drought mode, everybody still had their dual line fairway sprinklers going every night (pond water). And the fairways where I play regularly are about the same mowing height as the green collars I grew up with. So I wonder if the modern agronomy practices in the golf course industry doesn't favor the low running drive.

Just a random thought, I guess.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1383601965' post='8101524']
Could it be argued that modern gives no advantage over persimmon when the player is playing too weak a flex/soft a tip/high a loft driver? However, if the player is fit correctly with a correct flex/loft/tip/length combo that there is no way persimmon can compete?

Just a thought.
[/quote]

I think the answer to that lies in the smash factors in the Padraig Harrington 50 year old club Trackman data. Which, IMHO, suggests persimmon can compete.

Just can't compete in terms of sheer clubhead size, and therefore, spray-it-all-over-the-club-face-forgiveness.

[MikeG]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1383601965' post='8101524']
[quote name='MikeG' timestamp='1383525510' post='8097728']
Scooter, if you're reading this, that Bullseye you pointed me to on Ebay turned out to be a "La Femme" model. Hah....and I sucked less with The Lady than I normally do with the Redwood or Odyssey putters I normally play. The Bullseye puts the stroke more into my hands instead of the arms and shoulders...somehow that worked better for me. At least for now.
[/quote]

Mike, exactly the same as my experience.

I do find a lot of us older golfers tend to be more "hands" players....hitting a draw, closing the face early or late, hitting a 1/2 pitch from 40 yards - these are all "touch" shots or "hands" shots, all developed in the days before the super-MOI cinderblock on a stick putters, or laser rangefinders, or 64* wedges.

Back when we used to play the game, not play equipment.

Glad to hear the lady is working out for you. There is something about not needing a perfect shoulder pendulum, and instead putting with your hands and arms that is somewhat liberating. Also, hitting the ball wherever you want on the face is also liberating. And using "feel" not "perfect technique" brings putting back to what it always essentially was....using a club to put the ball in the hole.

Enjoying the driver/death star/smashing pumpkin vs. persimmon discussion. Just a thought.....if the lack of spin off the persimmon generates less backspin, a flatter trajectory, and more roll out, then wouldn't a low spin, lower lofted, longer shafted death star/graphite combo (LOL, love this term Mike) with a more forgiving face deliver even more distance? Could it be argued that modern gives no advantage over persimmon when the player is playing too weak a flex/soft a tip/high a loft driver? However, if the player is fit correctly with a correct flex/loft/tip/length combo that there is no way persimmon can compete?

Just a thought.
[/quote]

Scooter, I'm not sure what the deal is with the persimmon/modern differences. The smart guys with launch monitors and computers can probably give us ideal launch and spin numbers for any individual's swing. My problem is the swing it encourages for me, so I don't know what might work best. Something 43-43.5" long that I can tee low and is heavy enough to make it feel close to the other clubs in my bag? That would very likely cost me distance, but I wonder what it would do for my accuracy. My tinnitus-inducing modern driver (Ping G25, Tour Stiff, standard length) feels nothing like anything else in my modern bag. It's almost at the point where I have 3 swings out there...driver, 3w, and irons/wedges. Tom Wishon was onto something when he wrote about modern drivers' "standard" lengths being too long for most players. Plus I'm also guilty of the swing-for-the-fences modern driver mindset that NRJyzr alluded to in another thread in this section. I'll see how it goes longer term with the persimmon. I could very easily see carrying both even with a "modern" bag. The persimmon for tee shots that I want to hit in the ~250 range, and the modern for wide open grip/rip holes.

It's funny about the putters. My dad has always been a very good putter with a very handsy stroke. Same with a few guys in my old group who grew up in the persimmon/blades era. Pelz would cringe watching those guys putt.

[oldschoolrocker]

MG,
Ah yes, the three swing kit. I know it well. That wicked step-mother of gluttony born of " just 5 yards more, well maybe 10. If I had 15, okay 20 yards more off the tee..."
Bigger heads, longer and lighter shafts that throw temper tantrums at the most awkward of times. The rebellious spirit of the youth. Why do they insist on misbehaving? But, they hold such promise. In our eyes when they grow up and mind their manners things will be better off the tee.
But, they are a different breed, a new generation that marches to the beat of a different drum.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

Ahhh, yes. the old multiple swing trick. Back in the day, I had at least three different swings...not for different clubs. Just for different days.
I'd show up early and go to the range. Sometimes, it was kind of like looking for Easter Eggs. Never knew which swing i would find that day.
Usually, it was swing A. Sometimes swing B. One rare occasions, swing C. As younger man, if swing A didn't show up, I could spend time digging a swing out of the dirt on any given day and still have enough energy left to play. Today, I'd run out of gas on the course if I spent an hour on the range before I played.
On a given day,I could play pretty good golf with any of the swings. But I could never play well using a combination of the swings on the same day.
Now I can't whip[ s**t with a food processor.. Maybe because I don't have the energy to find A,B, or C. i think I am down to swing W and still searching. But search I will.
Uncle Bob

[HoldenCornfield]

Just wanted to report that I won my match yesterday 3 and 1 playing the vintage, and from the same tees (6500 yards, slope of 140) as my opponent. Neither of us played particularly well, but that's another story (windy, cool conditions and greens like glass).

This is also a guy that beat me the last two times we teed it up, when I was playing moderns, so it was a good test for the vintage.

I didn't drive particularly straight (had the hooks much of the day), but solid struck shots ended up in the same area as his. The only time I felt like I was at a disadvantage was on shots in the 180-200 range. The first time I foozled a 3 iron but after that decided to choke up on a 4 wood. Looking forward to filling that gap with a higher lofted 5 wood this week.

The biggest issue with my irons continues to be my distances. There were 4 or 5 holes that a solidly hit approach shot came up short. Its just hard to pull a 7 iron from 140 yards. These shorter, weaker lofted irons seem to be at least 15 yards shorter. But, that's just a mental adjustment I have to make, not the clubs fault.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1384009964' post='8123464']
Just wanted to report that I won my match yesterday 3 and 1 playing the vintage, and from the same tees (6500 yards, slope of 140) as my opponent. Neither of us played particularly well, but that's another story (windy, cool conditions and greens like glass).

This is also a guy that beat me the last two times we teed it up, when I was playing moderns, so it was a good test for the vintage.[/quote]

Hearty congrats.


[quote]I didn't drive particularly straight (had the hooks much of the day), but solid struck shots ended up in the same area as his. The only time I felt like I was at a disadvantage was on shots in the 180-200 range. The first time I foozled a 3 iron but after that decided to choke up on a 4 wood. Looking forward to filling that gap with a higher lofted 5 wood this week.[/quote]

I think this is an advantage of the older woods. The gaps aren't so compressed, so you can carry a 3/4/5 and still have effective clubs. Which reminds me of a story... Duval interview in one of the golf rags, from a dozen years ago or so. The albatross by Sarazen at ANGC is mentioned, Duval remarks on the 4 wood saying "that would be a 3 iron today."

Well, a 1930s 4 wood was about the same loft as Duval's 3 iron.

No real need to bring that up, I just love mentioning that. LOL


[quote]The biggest issue with my irons continues to be my distances. There were 4 or 5 holes that a solidly hit approach shot came up short. Its just hard to pull a 7 iron from 140 yards. These shorter, weaker lofted irons seem to be at least 15 yards shorter. But, that's just a mental adjustment I have to make, not the clubs fault.
[/quote]

This is exactly why clubs keep getting stronger. Even those of us who know better, realize what's going on, have to occasionally fight the mental image of hitting so much more club on our shots. Myself included.

One of my buddies got Titleist AP2s or some such similar club, they have a 46° PW. He's noticed he's hitting close to the same club as I was (my set in the bag was 49° PW). We were goofing around on a last hole, hitting shots from 125 yds to see who would buy the post-round beverages. I grabbed his 9 iron, walked back to my 8 iron distance and hit a shot to the center of the green. His eyes got big, I told him why I hit his 9 as far as my 8, but you know it's possible he still thinks his clubs are just longer than mine.

It was a good reminder for me, too. I used to wallow in my old school clubs; I've largely been playing a 50° PW since 2001. My playing partners all have a silly nickname for me because I hit the ball farther than they do, the AP2 player is gaining distance and talks of catching up to me (he's also 11 yrs younger). In a stupid, neanderthalish manner, it's nice to show them I can still bring it. And a reminder to me about relative lofts and club numbers.

Sorry, got off track there. LOL@me

[oldschoolrocker]

Congrats on your round. Understand about the yardage versus club thing with respect to the vintage irons. You will get over that soon enough. The more you play the old clubs and put them in various situations the easier it will become to get a feel for what club to pull no matter what numeral is on the sole.

[birly-shirly]

I've found that between playing classic lofts, clubbing up for deep pins and/or possible miscues, and not just trying to hit the snot out of it, I can sometimes be hitting up to 4 clubs more than some playing partners who maybe drive the ball about the same distance.

It's a good thing to use all the clubs in the bag.

Probably the best shot I hit on my last competitive outing was a 2 iron into a headwind on a par 3 where my partner hit a 6. He thought I was bullshitting him when he asked what I'd hit.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Way to sneak one by the censors BS!

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1384009964' post='8123464']
The biggest issue with my irons continues to be my distances. There were 4 or 5 holes that a solidly hit approach shot came up short. Its just hard to pull a 7 iron from 140 yards. These shorter, weaker lofted irons seem to be at least 15 yards shorter. But, that's just a mental adjustment I have to make, not the clubs fault.
[/quote]

I find these comments odd, as I have given up no club vs. distance losses by going back to vintage.

In my case, I am a low backspin player - possibly the weaker lofts on the longer shafts increase my backspin which increases my carry. And my vintage swings travel the same distance with the same iron as my playing partner's do, and he's playing clubs that have at least 2*/iron over mine. We both have a similar SS, and our shots usually travel the same distance.

[birly-shirly]

@ Scooter! You like my expanded vocabulary?!

Today I played maybe only my second full vintage round this year. Been playing '80s blades almost exclusively all year - but more modern woods. Today I rounded out a set of Hogan PCs with a lovely refurbished Apex 3 wood and a Radial driver. The driver is butt ugly, but like the 3 wood sports an Apex 4 shaft, and a butchered Golden Goose bullseye-style blade.

Temperatures here today are close to freezing and ground is soft - so yardages went out the window. Probably a good thing. I loved hitting the old school woods - although I mostly tee'd off with the 3 wood since there was hardly a breath of wind and I tend to think of wooden drivers as more a headwind club.

With conditions making a mockery of normal summer yardages, it was probably easier to swing a bit easier off the tee - and I found the woods really, really solid.

I shot 81 - with 4 penalty shots (boo!) and 2 long par 4s out of reach in 2 shots and had an absolute blast. Hit lots of long irons - which actually got easier with practice as the round went on, instead of being a once or twice a round challenge.

I've struggled all year with hooks off the tee - but today I didn't lose one shot to the left. I don't know if today was a freak ballstriking day, but I didn't feel like I really missed the forgiveness of metal woods either - albeit having the benefit of the extra loft of a 3 wood on most tee shots.

Putting too. I've seen Ralph Maltby write that MOI is more important in putters and drivers than in irons. The MOI of a bullseye style is vanishingly small, unless gobs of lead tape are a close substitute for perimeter weighting. Putting was rock solid today too - much better than with the B60 I've been auditioning lately.

[HoldenCornfield]

Very nice. How much distance do think you gave up off the tee by using the wood woods? How did they affect your score - positively or negatively?

[birly-shirly]

It's really hard to say. I think distance would have been well down today anyway, because it was so cold and soft. I think if I'd swung a modern driver off the tee all day - I might have gained 20 or so yards compared to the smooth 3 woods I was hitting, but only on my best drives. That might have been enough to bring a couple of holes within reach (and I still had a 3 iron 3rd shot into a par 5 that is usually a wedge) - but only if I was player enough to bring out the long drive when I need it most. I can only wish...

Hitting driver, I think I'd probably have found more trouble too - certainly on the left.

What was really pleasing was the trajectory. With persimmon and stiff shafts, I was prepared for low diving, stinging bullets - but not at all. Even the driver launched well. It probably helped that I had a nice little fade going today.

As for score - again, it's tough to say. The course I played is penal, left and right - and I usually lose at least a ball or two in the gorse. Today I blocked one drive and lost it - but I also managed to hit a 2 iron into a bush trying to carry a corner, so I can't blame those 2 shots on the persimmon.

I hit 7 or 8 GiR - which is about typical for me, and I putted solidly. I don't think I could expect to have scored much better with modern clubs. Part of that is, as others here have argued, is that the shorter heavier woods encourage a less aggressive swing - and I think once you find a groove of hitting smooth shots into the fairway, that kind of seeps into your whole game.

Everything, from clubs to weather and course conditions conspired today to rob me of any expectations. If anything, I think that might have been the secret to one of the most enjoyable rounds I've played all year.

[oldschoolrocker]

Glad to hear of the good fortune with the all vintage bag BS. It is sometimes quite surprising when conditions seem to warrant lower expectations that we come away with our best effort. Like they say,"beware of the sick, or injured golfer." Same holds true with regard to course conditions. Once again, Bravo Zulu.