Hogan Downswing Questions...

[rocker40]

Ive been trying to get the Hogan downswing for a while and just cant seem to get it correct. Please walk through this with me.

 

Go to the top of the backswing. Is the next move where he rotates the lower body left and then tucks the right elbow into the front of the righ hip. Or Does he drop his hands, lay the club off and release the cup in his left wrist and then tuck the right elbow into the right hip.

 

Once the elbow is tucked into the right hip, this is where i get lost. Does he just rotate his body or is he doing the baseball swing as many talk about for the release?

 

Also, how do i get the correct feel for the follow through. Just hold the left upper arm against the ribcage area?

 

Thanks and i hope this all makes sense.

[dairic]

This is where the un-cupping happens most likely due to pivot and left wrist starting to uncock.

[attachment=1850051:Hogan de-cup.gif]

[dairic]

There's a lot of towards the target movement in the downswing. Look how much he's driving forward. He must have felt very much on top and inside of the ball when he struck it. No wonder he was able to have pitch right elbow right up to and through impact. Not a stationary head position that's for sure and plenty of axis tilt.

[attachment=1850053:Address lines.jpeg][attachment=1850055:P6 lines.jpeg]

[dairic]

All that lead to a whole lot of extension in the follow through.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5Zoxgnn78U[/media]

[dairic]

IMO the movement of the hips and added secondary axis tilt causes the club and right elbow to drop.

[attachment=1850057:transition.gif]

[rocker40]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1377406244' post='7739769']
IMO the movement of the hips and added secondary axis tilt causes the club and right elbow to drop.

[attachment=1850057:transition.gif]
[/quote]

Where can i find the rest of this video on youtube ?

[dairic]

Here you go

[attachment=1850749:benlots fast.gif]

[tembolo1284]

He absolutely porks it in those vids. Great stuff sir.

[JBOMB808]

I think Greg McHatton describes it the best with the right arm movement that will help you set your right-elbow motion...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXPVnWJ0gDs
Knudson, Trevino, Hogan use their bodies not their hands or arms. Big muscles move less and slower than the small muscles like the arms and the hands. IMO, I believe Dufner is light-years ahead of the tour with his waggle because he sets the plane and release of the swing. When you think about it, every shot is going to be different. Driver, Fade, 9i, Draw, etc. A well-purposed waggle moves the feeling of intention away from the hands, wrists which are the swing wreckers, and puts the body into motion that will automatically set the hands/club on path into and through the ball.

[rocker40]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1377532449' post='7746703']
I think Greg McHatton describes it the best with the right arm movement that will help you set your right-elbow motion...
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXPVnWJ0gDs[/media]
Knudson, Trevino, Hogan use their bodies not their hands or arms. Big muscles move less and slower than the small muscles like the arms and the hands. IMO, I believe Dufner is light-years ahead of the tour with his waggle because he sets the plane and release of the swing. When you think about it, every shot is going to be different. Driver, Fade, 9i, Draw, etc. A well-purposed waggle moves the feeling of intention away from the hands, wrists which are the swing wreckers, and puts the body into motion that will automatically set the hands/club on path into and through the ball.
[/quote]

Excellent video. Thank you. What other TGM techniques follow the Hogan Swing? Im looking for help in the downswing.
Thanks...

[dairic]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1377532449' post='7746703']
IMO, I believe Dufner is light-years ahead of the tour with his waggle because he sets the plane and release of the swing. When you think about it, every shot is going to be different. Driver, Fade, 9i, Draw, etc. A well-purposed waggle moves the feeling of intention away from the hands, wrists which are the swing wreckers, and puts the body into motion that will automatically set the hands/club on path into and through the ball.
[/quote]

I used to think waggling was a joke, but as usual I was wrong.

I've just recently started to appreciate the value of a waggle. I found that it can assist in settling into an address position by seeing how the club head comes into the ball. It does a lot more then remove tension.

I seem to remember that Hogan's instructions were to make sure the right elbow made contact with the body when waggling properly. Preparing for impact, and maybe as you mentioned to move the feeling of intention away from the hands. It's not just all wrists.

Looks to me like there's a bit of forearm rotation to get the face so open. Getting a sense of backswing plane when waggle is going back, but also lining up for for PA#3 release when waggle comes back in?

[attachment=1852787:wag.jpg]

[kellygreen]

[quote name='rocker40' timestamp='1377398330' post='7739341']
Ive been trying to get the Hogan downswing for a while and just cant seem to get it correct. Please walk through this with me.

Go to the top of the backswing. Is the next move where he rotates the lower body left and then tucks the right elbow into the front of the righ hip. Or Does he drop his hands, lay the club off and release the cup in his left wrist and then tuck the right elbow into the right hip.

Once the elbow is tucked into the right hip, this is where i get lost. Does he just rotate his body or is he doing the baseball swing as many talk about for the release?

Also, how do i get the correct feel for the follow through. Just hold the left upper arm against the ribcage area?

Thanks and i hope this all makes sense.
[/quote]

[i]"What is the correct integrated motion the two arms and hands make as they approach the ball and hit through it? What does it feel like as it is happening? [b]Well if there is any motion in sports which it resembles, it is the old two-handed basketball pass from the right side of the body.[/b] As the player enters the impact area and the hands start to pass the right hip, it is almost as if the handswere holding a ball as they move towards the target, the left arm and hand leading, the right arm and hand following....The ball is about the size of the two hands. [b]It is a heavy ball, heavy in the way that a small-sized medicine ball would be. [/b] It takes muscle to throw it hard. Straight ahead of the playe, maybe four or five yards ahead down his line of flight, stands a fairly large target...As he shifts his weight from his right foot to his left to get all his power into his throw, [b]the player flings the ball at the target as hard as he can, whipping the ball with both arms and hands[/b], since he can throw harder and more accurately that way."[/i]

[i][url="http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/HoganTwoHandedPass.jpg"]http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/HoganTwoHandedPass.jpg[/url][/i]

-----Ben Hogan "Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf". Pages 99-100.

Since the two-handed, sidelong pass is a obsolete basketball technique in today's game, the best way to get a feel for what Hogan is talking about is the Medicine Ball toss that he alludes too.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFy9F4WLgck"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFy9F4WLgck[/url]

The most popular uses of this drill is as a strength building exercise...but it is also a good drill to get the proper feel of the motion of the body through the hitting area with the body-rotation swing. In order to throw a heavy medicine ball powerfully---and not injure yourself in the process---the only way to do it is to keep both arms CONNECTED to your trunk. That is you keep both UPPER arms--shoulder to elbow---resting lightly on your torso like you are trying to keep a large beach towel in both armpits. Then you ROTATE forcefully through and release the ball. Like a field athlete throwing a discus or a field hammer.

This motion recruits the big muscles of the body core as a power-source AND connection of the arms to it allows that rotation to time the swing and keep everything moving together. So the motion becomes one with very few "moving parts" and easier to time from swing to swing and day-to-day.

Different players will feel this move differently. Some will feel that the arms are leading the body around. Most will feel that he trunk is leading and the arms and lower body follow. A few---like Hogan---will feel that the hips lead the motion. Regardless of the feel, there is no way to do this drill properly---rotating all the way, and keeping both arms connected---without recruiting the core muscles into the motion.

[dairic]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1377525221' post='7745865']
He absolutely porks it in those vids. Great stuff sir.
[/quote]

The footage showing his follow through extension is my favorite bit of Hogan video. It looks like he could have lauched it far enough to reach pork on the moon. Only the best shall taste that zero gravity bacon my friend.

[JBOMB808]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1377542483' post='7747925']
I've just recently started to appreciate the value of a waggle. I found that it can assist in settling into an address position by seeing how the club head comes into the ball. It does a lot more then remove tension.

I seem to remember that Hogan's instructions were to make sure the right elbow made contact with the body when waggling properly. Preparing for impact, and maybe as you mentioned to move the feeling of intention away from the hands. It's not just all wrists.

Looks to me like there's a bit of forearm rotation to get the face so open. Getting a sense of backswing plane when waggle is going back, but also lining up for for PA#3 release when waggle comes back in?

[attachment=1852787:wag.jpg]
[/quote]

Great photo! One thing to point out as you mentioned is his forearm rotation and lack of wrist set in the left hand. I'm starting to theorize that Hogan had his infamous lag due to delayed wrist set in the backswing similar to how Sergio Garcia transitions. The major difference is Garcia sets his plane upright while Hogan goes flat. Garcia does follow-through more with the hands and wrists but I think it's because he runs out of body rotation from going vertical in the backswing. If one uses the transition to properly set the wrist, you have no choice but to have tempo in your swing and accelerate through the shot for fear of casting. Not to mention it again takes the "UP" out of the swing. Oily wrists take the timing out of the shot and ultimately gives control to the big muscles to set the little ones in place for the rest of the swing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wgdGSfDsD0

[rocker40]

How do i teach myself to get into this position on the downswing.
What are the indicators that im in the correct position?

[attachment=1855125:Hogan-ElasticBandTwo.jpg]

[kellygreen]

[quote name='rocker40' timestamp='1377714206' post='7760481']
How do i teach myself to get into this position on the downswing.
What are the indicators that im in the correct position?

[attachment=1855125:Hogan-ElasticBandTwo.jpg]
[/quote]

1. See post #2 on this thread. Hogan may have FELT like he lead that much with his hips on the downswing, but you can see from the picture that his upper and lower body were much more in-synch.

2. The Medicine Ball Toss drill that I mentioned in post #12 is an excellent way to get a feel for the proper action in a body-rotation swing.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1377556242' post='7749351']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1377525221' post='7745865']
He absolutely porks it in those vids. Great stuff sir.
[/quote]

The footage showing his follow through extension is my favorite bit of Hogan video. It looks like he could have lauched it far enough to reach pork on the moon. Only the best shall taste that zero gravity bacon my friend.
[/quote]

That's poetry sir...just sheer freakin' poetry. Love it!

[dairic]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1377714458' post='7760513']
[quote name='rocker40' timestamp='1377714206' post='7760481']
How do i teach myself to get into this position on the downswing.
What are the indicators that im in the correct position?

[attachment=1855125:Hogan-ElasticBandTwo.jpg]
[/quote]

1. See post #2 on this thread. Hogan may have FELT like he lead that much with his hips on the downswing, but you can see from the picture that his upper and lower body were much more in-synch.

2. The Medicine Ball Toss drill that I mentioned in post #12 is an excellent way to get a feel for the proper action in a body-rotation swing.
[/quote]

+1

[rocker40]

Going back to the release. Whats the best way to learn the hogan release. Is it more of a baseball type swing release or an underhand throw?

[kellygreen]

[quote name='rocker40' timestamp='1377780315' post='7764563']
Going back to the release. Whats the best way to learn the hogan release. Is it more of a baseball type swing release or an underhand throw?
[/quote]

Once again, the Medicine Ball Toss drill.

In this type of swing the release is timed and controlled by the rotation of the body through the hitting area. All the player has to be concerned with is keeping both upper arms connected to the torso, and keep the body rotating through the shot. So---as long as you have a correct grip on the club, neutral-to-strong----the release will take care of itself.

(If you stop or slow down your rotation the arms will release past the body---like in a "classic" swing---and you'll either hook the ball or pull it)

How it will feel--again---is personal...and the Medicine Ball Toss will force you to make the correct motion while allowing you to get a sense of what that motion feels like to you.

To ME, it feels like the baseball swing that I used to have when I was Little League---a very body-dominated rotary move----but that may not be necessarily helpful to you.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1377784164' post='7764889']
[quote name='rocker40' timestamp='1377780315' post='7764563']
Going back to the release. Whats the best way to learn the hogan release. Is it more of a baseball type swing release or an underhand throw?
[/quote]

Once again, the Medicine Ball Toss drill.

In this type of swing the release is timed and controlled by the rotation of the body through the hitting area. All the player has to be concerned with is keeping both upper arms connected to the torso, and keep the body rotating through the shot. So---as long as you have a correct grip on the club, neutral-to-strong----the release will take care of itself.

(If you stop or slow down your rotation the arms will release past the body---like in a "classic" swing---and you'll either hook the ball or pull it)

How it will feel--again---is personal...and the Medicine Ball Toss will force you to make the correct motion while allowing you to get a sense of what that motion feels like to you.

To ME, it feels like the baseball swing that I used to have when I was Little League---a very body-dominated rotary move----but that may not be necessarily helpful to you.
[/quote]

Kelly, for us foreign boys who didn't have the chance to play baseball at any level at all...how do we go about feeling it other than just a medicine ball drill? I liken it to a flat inside-in forehand hit in the ad court down the line. But that's from tennis background.

What if a guy comes from basketball or rugby or something. How can it be explained to these type of chaps? Gotta be another thing people do or have experience with to explain this body-release oriented swing. Maybe trying to hurl a kettlebell across the gym floor?

Help me out.

[tembolo1284]

I ask because one of my buddies was/is a great soccer player. Has big legs. But he's all upper-body dominated like a typical men's amateur player. It's sad he's not using his talented butt, core, and thighs to power the ball. For the life of me I can't get him to feel that body driven move through the ball.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1377788385' post='7765333']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1377784164' post='7764889']
[quote name='rocker40' timestamp='1377780315' post='7764563']
Going back to the release. Whats the best way to learn the hogan release. Is it more of a baseball type swing release or an underhand throw?
[/quote]

Once again, the Medicine Ball Toss drill.

In this type of swing the release is timed and controlled by the rotation of the body through the hitting area. All the player has to be concerned with is keeping both upper arms connected to the torso, and keep the body rotating through the shot. So---as long as you have a correct grip on the club, neutral-to-strong----the release will take care of itself.

(If you stop or slow down your rotation the arms will release past the body---like in a "classic" swing---and you'll either hook the ball or pull it)

How it will feel--again---is personal...and the Medicine Ball Toss will force you to make the correct motion while allowing you to get a sense of what that motion feels like to you.

To ME, it feels like the baseball swing that I used to have when I was Little League---a very body-dominated rotary move----but that may not be necessarily helpful to you.
[/quote]

Kelly, for us foreign boys who didn't have the chance to play baseball at any level at all...how do we go about feeling it other than just a medicine ball drill? I liken it to a flat inside-in forehand hit in the ad court down the line. But that's from tennis background.

What if a guy comes from basketball or rugby or something. How can it be explained to these type of chaps? Gotta be another thing people do or have experience with to explain this body-release oriented swing. Maybe trying to hurl a kettlebell across the gym floor?

Help me out.
[/quote]

Other analogies I use are:

1. Two-hand tennis backhand.

2. Throwing a frisbee with your left hand.

3. Throwing a discus or a hammer in track and field.

Just to name a few.

Jim Ballard used the analogy of throwing a heavy suitcase or duffle bag.

Harvey Penick's Bucket of Water....

[tembolo1284]

I guess I need to get this boy in the gym throwing around some heavy objects. Good stuff. Thank you sir!

[kellygreen]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1377788488' post='7765343']
I ask because one of my buddies was/is a great soccer player. Has big legs. But he's all upper-body dominated like a typical men's amateur player. It's sad he's not using his talented butt, core, and thighs to power the ball. For the life of me I can't get him to feel that body driven move through the ball.
[/quote]


I'll assume he wasn't a goalie...because goalies have to learn an athletic throwing motion to clear the ball down the pitch.

It's tough trying to find a familiar analogy for someone who doesn't have alot of experience with ball-hitting or ball-throwing sports. Because those are the sports that force people to learn that athletic weight-shift by the lower body, and rotary motion by the upper body.

I think the Medicine Ball Drill would be perfect for your buddy. Have him find a safe, concrete wall and have him teach himself how to throw that medicine ball with both hands from a golf posture. He'll probably have enough "body-sense" to quickly figure out what to do.

Becaue part of the counter-intuitive nature of golf is that you are given this very light object---a golf club---but in order to swing it powerfully, you have to swing it like it is a very heavy object.

Another---but admittedly more danerous option---is to let him learn how to swing an axe or a sledgehammer. If he tries to do these things without learning how to marshall his body's power properly...he'll tire very quickly.

[dairic]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1377790231' post='7765481']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1377788488' post='7765343']
I ask because one of my buddies was/is a great soccer player. Has big legs. But he's all upper-body dominated like a typical men's amateur player. It's sad he's not using his talented butt, core, and thighs to power the ball. For the life of me I can't get him to feel that body driven move through the ball.
[/quote]


I'll assume he wasn't a goalie...because goalies have to learn an athletic throwing motion to clear the ball down the pitch.

It's tough trying to find a familiar analogy for someone who doesn't have alot of experience with ball-hitting or ball-throwing sports. Because those are the sports that force people to learn that athletic weight-shift by the lower body, and rotary motion by the upper body.

I think the Medicine Ball Drill would be perfect for your buddy. Have him find a safe, concrete wall and have him teach himself how to throw that medicine ball with both hands from a golf posture. He'll probably have enough "body-sense" to quickly figure out what to do.

Becaue part of the counter-intuitive nature of golf is that you are given this [b]very light object---a golf club---but in order to swing it powerfully, you have to swing it like it is a very heavy object.[/b]

Another---but admittedly more danerous option---is to let him learn how to swing an axe or a sledgehammer. If he tries to do these things without learning how to marshall his body's power properly...he'll tire very quickly.
[/quote]

So true.

I especially notice this in Gary Player's swing because to me it looks like he was heaving on a very heavy object.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwG4m8kuwgM&list=PLRYgxIUlCgaoNvnPVAK8PvGO3P7P3OkYb[/media]

[tembolo1284]

Maybe there's something to a crazy heavy swingweight then eh?

[kellygreen]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1377862655' post='7770389']
Maybe there's something to a crazy heavy swingweight then eh?
[/quote]

I played my best golf when I was playing clubs that a buddy used to describe as "war hammers".

[JBOMB808]

I think all this heavyweight stuff has a lot to do with balance in the swing. A heavyweight has less forgiveness in forgoing balance. Knudson knew balance was key and was a proponent of even swinging with his eyes closed. If you can take away the hand-eye coordination, it might just be a way of finding a repeatable swing.

[JasonFL]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1377460692' post='7741893']
Here you go

[attachment=1850749:benlots fast.gif]
[/quote]

Thats got to be the best video Ive seen on just how fast hogans arms are!