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Why Hogan's swing was so great.


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We can agree to disagree that's fine, but the picture on the right side sure looks like Duf to me. Hogan's connection drill is just that - it is meant to connect the arms to the hips(body) through impact.

[url="https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8GTn2nZmqqLJ9B6MWU436QiL4z3h0FP9hfoyAhX4bEQSSf6Ph"]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8GTn2nZmqqLJ9B6MWU436QiL4z3h0FP9hfoyAhX4bEQSSf6Ph[/url]

Secret is in the dirt

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Either way, KG and myself agree that swing mechanics especially ones that are a part of another players swing can be nothing but speculation. How do you know a player is not lying? Why would they lie? Why wouldn't they lie? Do they even know what pronation means? etc.

This is why anything Hogan related gets... :lock:

Secret is in the dirt

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[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380809300' post='7947007']
Of course it is common knowledge that if a player says he feels he is coming from the inside, that may not be the case. That is a spatial feel. But if a player, a PGA Tour player, says he is firing his arms as fast as he can, that is exactly what he is doing. Are you suggesting that Hunter Feels like he is firing his arms but really is firing another muscle instead? That is ridiculous. I think you are blinded by the look of the pivot driven swing. You have stated many times that you have a pivot driven swing "like Hunter mahan". So maybe the feel that is not real is on your end. Maybe you have overactive arms so you feel like you're pivot is doing all the work. Did you ever think about that? Maybe Hunters pivot is so ingrained that he has to fire his arms hard to keep them in sync with his body. Not maybe, that is exactly the case. And you can make number lists of all the muscle mumbo-jumbo you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the only way for the pivot to completely control the swing would be to plaster the arms across the body and let them go completely limp. No tour caliber player swings in that fashion.
[/quote]

Like I said, I not interested in a back-and-forth.

Because experience has shown me that this will quickly deteriorate into a lot of snark and personal attacks.

Bottomline, is whenever people start talking about swing mechanics, you quickly wind up with a jumbled mess because most people don't distinguish between feel, real, swing keys, and what is actually happening ---or even possible in some cases---from a biomechanical stand point.

...and lots of people want their personal swing model to be "correct".

I've said my piece. Clarified my position. Feel free to agree or disagree as you wish.

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[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1380721960' post='7941915']
Yep. 7000 yards. Hits first 12 greens and finally makes a birdie.

Very interesting to see how many of those greens he was hitting with a fairway wood.

I'm guessing he was mid 50s by then?
[/quote]

I started with persimmon drivers and balata balls. It is not even funny how much better the old guys hit it then modern day hackers (pga pros).

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[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380811953' post='7947207']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1380811443' post='7947157']
[quote name='MadForeIt' timestamp='1380811308' post='7947145']
Dufner ain't Hogan, not even close IMOP
[/quote]

Totally agree. I don't understand how some people think his swing is the closest to hogan on tour. His move is great, but it's not close to hogan. Especially the downswing.
[/quote]
I totally agree..... Just using him as an example of a "pivot driven" swing. And hopefully to relate to KG as he has stated that he swings like Mahan. Apparently KG understands his swing better than hunter understands his own.
[/quote]

Like I said.

Deteriorates into snark and personal attacks, as people wall themselves up behind their perferred swing models...and start throwing rocks.

..and people wonder why the moderators have to police these Hogan threads with an iron-fist....

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[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1380814209' post='7947387']
[

...and lots of people want their personal swing model to be "correct".


[/quote]

I think the swing is a deeply personal, intimate experience that connects us to powerful highs and lows. This drives almost a parallel way of relating as with religious beliefs.

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[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1380681555' post='7940701']
I find most of the discussion about the greatness of his swing...unimportant to the rest of us.

The one issue that is relevant to all of us getting better is this.

[b]Both his arms rotated inward perfectly in the transition and downswing and connected the rotation of the club to his turn. The rest is just technical nonsense and minutia.[/b]

That is my 2 cents.
[/quote]

Because rotating arms inward and connecting the rotation of the club to the turn isn't technical nonsense.....

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[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1380812339' post='7947229']
I think we could start a new 'illusion' thread talking about the arms and the pivot. Just because the arms and pivot are moving together at the same rate doesn't necessarily mean the player is a body driven player. That player could feel like they are flinging the arms or flinging the body as hard as they can.

I think we can all agree our number 1 goal is to get arms and pivot working TOGETHER. Something hogan did as good or better than anyone.
[/quote]
Bingo.

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[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1380814538' post='7947421']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1380814209' post='7947387']
[

...and lots of people want their personal swing model to be "correct".


[/quote]

I think the swing is a deeply personal, intimate experience that connects us to powerful highs and lows. This drives almost a parallel way of relating as with religious beliefs.
[/quote]

Applies to everything that people start to emotionally invest in, and start to see as a part of their identity.

...and why rational debate---at that point---becomes impossible.

Because the conversation goes from being viewed as exchange of ideas, to a personal assault that has be defended against by any means necessary.

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[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1380814377' post='7947411']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380811953' post='7947207']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1380811443' post='7947157']
[quote name='MadForeIt' timestamp='1380811308' post='7947145']
Dufner ain't Hogan, not even close IMOP
[/quote]

Totally agree. I don't understand how some people think his swing is the closest to hogan on tour. His move is great, but it's not close to hogan. Especially the downswing.
[/quote]
I totally agree..... Just using him as an example of a "pivot driven" swing. And hopefully to relate to KG as he has stated that he swings like Mahan. Apparently KG understands his swing better than hunter understands his own. Or even that you understand hunter's swing better than hunter does?
[/quote]

Like I said.

Deteriorates into snark and personal attacks, as people wall themselves up behind their perferred swing models...and start throwing rocks.

[/quote]
Apologize if you felt attacked, definitely not the intent. Clarify though, are you not stating that you understand your "pivot driven" swing better than hunter understands his own?

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[quote name='minitour' timestamp='1380814655' post='7947431']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1380681555' post='7940701']
I find most of the discussion about the greatness of his swing...unimportant to the rest of us.

The one issue that is relevant to all of us getting better is this.

[b]Both his arms rotated inward perfectly in the transition and downswing and connected the rotation of the club to his turn. The rest is just technical nonsense and minutia.[/b]

That is my 2 cents.
[/quote]

Because rotating arms inward and connecting the rotation of the club to the turn isn't technical nonsense.....
[/quote]

In this case, no. Actually, in most cases. Linking the arms up to the turn is quite possibly the most important thing in the swing.

All "tips" are welcome. Instruction not desired. 
 

 

The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

BERTRAND RUSSELL

 

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[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380814915' post='7947465']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1380814377' post='7947411']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380811953' post='7947207']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1380811443' post='7947157']
[quote name='MadForeIt' timestamp='1380811308' post='7947145']
Dufner ain't Hogan, not even close IMOP
[/quote]

Totally agree. I don't understand how some people think his swing is the closest to hogan on tour. His move is great, but it's not close to hogan. Especially the downswing.
[/quote]
I totally agree..... Just using him as an example of a "pivot driven" swing. And hopefully to relate to KG as he has stated that he swings like Mahan. Apparently KG understands his swing better than hunter understands his own. Or even that you understand hunter's swing better than hunter does?
[/quote]

Like I said.

Deteriorates into snark and personal attacks, as people wall themselves up behind their perferred swing models...and start throwing rocks.

[/quote]
Apologize if you felt attacked, definitely not the intent. Clarify though, are you not stating that you understand your "pivot driven" swing better than hunter understands his own?
[/quote]

What Mahan is describing is his swing keys/swing feels. Which I'm SURE he is communicating accurately. But they are purely SUBJECTIVE...and vary from person to person.

I have one basic swing...but about a half-dozen different keys/feels that I rotate between in order to keep my swing balanced. If you videoed my swing, I'd defy you to tell the difference in how my swing looks when I'm using one key versus another (I've done it...and it isn't possible.).

That is different from the actual (bio)mechanics. The human body only has a limited number of ways that it can move in order to propel an object powerfully..and stay within the constraints imposed by the rules of the game. I do not question Mahan's INNER experience of what it FEELS like he is doing. What I'm talking about is actually happening on the OUTSIDE. Where the degree of connection that Mahan maintains between his upper arms and his torso severely limits what the muscles that control the arms can actually do.

The reason why I hate discussions of swing mechanics---and why they so often descend into bitterly personal disagreements---is that most people blend the subject (feel/keys) with the objective (mechanics). So you wind up in a situation where there is no way out, because so much of what is being argued about is subjective.

Like me trying to argue with you over what a slice of pizza tastes like....or what resturant makes the best pizza. I like Chicago deep-dish. Someone else is going to like New York, hand-tossed. How are you going to decide who's "right" and who's wrong?? When its all a matter of personal taste?

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Ping Tour Gorge 54* and 60*
Odyssey 2-ball Versa, 34"

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[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1380812776' post='7947267']
We can agree to disagree that's fine, but the picture on the right side sure looks like Duf to me. Hogan's connection drill is just that - it is meant to connect the arms to the hips(body) through impact.

[url="https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8GTn2nZmqqLJ9B6MWU436QiL4z3h0FP9hfoyAhX4bEQSSf6Ph"]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8GTn2nZmqqLJ9B6MWU436QiL4z3h0FP9hfoyAhX4bEQSSf6Ph[/url]
[/quote]
If we are talking about the right elbow, take another look at the vid I posted. Watch duffners elbow in relation to the white stripe on his right side shirt seam (dtl view). His elbow ain't "connected" there. It clearly moves forward of that line early and into the down swing. If it were "stuck" there the relationship would not change. And there is NO use in looking at a static 2d image to decipher stuff like this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=J_qPOFiv_Rc&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJ_qPOFiv_Rc
Not trying to argue, just discussion.

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[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1380815507' post='7947535']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380814915' post='7947465']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1380814377' post='7947411']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380811953' post='7947207']
[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1380811443' post='7947157']
[quote name='MadForeIt' timestamp='1380811308' post='7947145']
Dufner ain't Hogan, not even close IMOP
[/quote]

Totally agree. I don't understand how some people think his swing is the closest to hogan on tour. His move is great, but it's not close to hogan. Especially the downswing.
[/quote]
I totally agree..... Just using him as an example of a "pivot driven" swing. And hopefully to relate to KG as he has stated that he swings like Mahan. Apparently KG understands his swing better than hunter understands his own. Or even that you understand hunter's swing better than hunter does?
[/quote]

Like I said.

Deteriorates into snark and personal attacks, as people wall themselves up behind their perferred swing models...and start throwing rocks.

[/quote]
Apologize if you felt attacked, definitely not the intent. Clarify though, are you not stating that you understand your "pivot driven" swing better than hunter understands his own?
[/quote]

What Mahan is describing is his swing keys/swing feels. Which I'm SURE he is communicating accurately. But they are purely SUBJECTIVE...and vary from person to person.

I have one basic swing...but about a half-dozen different keys/feels that I rotate between in order to keep my swing balanced. If you videoed my swing, I'd defy you to tell the difference in how my swing looks when I'm using one key versus another (I've done it...and it isn't possible.).

That is different from the actual (bio)mechanics. The human body only has a limited number of ways that it can move in order to propel an object powerfully..and stay within the constraints imposed by the rules of the game. I do not question Mahan's INNER experience of what it FEELS like he is doing. What I'm talking about is actually happening on the OUTSIDE. Where the degree of connection that Mahan maintains between his upper arms and his torso severely limits what the muscles that control the arms can actually do.

The reason why I hate discussions of swing mechanics---and why they so often descend into bitterly personal disagreements---is that most people blend the subject (feel/keys) with the objective (mechanics). So you wind up in a situation where there is no way out, because so much of what is being argued about is subjective.

Like me trying to argue with you over what a slice of pizza tastes like....or what resturant makes the best pizza. I like Chicago deep-dish. Someone else is going to like New York, hand-tossed. How are you going to decide who's "right" and who's wrong?? When its all a matter of personal taste?
[/quote]
Apples and oranges again KG, classic. All of that is correct, except the fact that none of it relates to the fact that hunter said his INTENT, not "swing key", is to fire his arms as fast as he can. It is not a matter of who makes the best pizza. It's a matter of I say, "I go to John's pizza shop"..... And you say, "we'll maybe the guy who owns that shop isn't really named John. So you are not correct." I get it though, you don't want a back and forth, so lets agree to disagree.

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Ok, a discussion is good. I can tell you why Dufner's elbow isn't connected. It's because his address position is far enough away that if it did connect, he wouldn't reach the ball, but if you really want to see another concept of a "connected-core swing"...
[url="http://www.pgatour.com/content/dam/pgatour/blog/2012/08/swing11.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/original"]http://www.pgatour.c...itions/original[/url]

This is probably the most golden advice- the most accurate strikers have a [i]constantly rotating body[/i] through impact and it's not just a coincidence. If the body stalls, the club will release to all sorts of angles.

After impact, the player can do whatever they want, but through impact is where the magic happens.

Secret is in the dirt

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[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380816635' post='7947629']
Apples and oranges again KG, classic. All of that is correct, except the fact that none of it relates to the fact that hunter said his INTENT, not "swing key", is to fire his arms as fast as he can. It is not a matter of who makes the best pizza. It's a matter of I say, "I go to John's pizza shop"..... And you say, "we'll maybe the guy who owns that shop isn't really named John. So you are not correct." I get it though, you don't want a back and forth, so lets agree to disagree.
[/quote]

Like I said.

Rational debate becomes pointless.

It is not "apples and oranges". It is the central point here. Regardless of what Mahan's intentions are, biomechanics and anatomy don't ALLOW him to do it. Because the human body doesn't WORK that way. The degree of connection that he maintains between his arms and torso eliminates the necessary degrees of freedom where arm motion is concerned.

Like the old Maine joke, [i]"You can't get there from here." [/i]

The anatomy doens't allow Mahan to actually USE his arms (objectively) in the manner he feels that he is doing (subjectively).

Someone like Fred Couples or Charl Schwartzel? The subjective and objective line up, because they swing in a fashion that allows the right arm a lot more freedom of motion until fairly late in the swing.

Again...the failure to distinguish between the objective and the subjective is why these discussions turn into swamps, and a lot of personal animosity.

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Ping Tour Gorge 54* and 60*
Odyssey 2-ball Versa, 34"

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[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1380816730' post='7947645']
Ok, a discussion is good. I can tell you why Dufner's elbow isn't connected. It's because his address position is far enough away that if it did connect, he wouldn't reach the ball, but if you really want to see another concept of a "connected-core swing"...
...Furyk stands substantial close to the ball...
[url="http://www.pgatour.com/content/dam/pgatour/blog/2012/08/swing11.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/original"]http://www.pgatour.c...itions/original[/url]

This is probably the most golden advice- the most accurate strikers have a [i]constantly rotating body[/i] through impact and it's not just a coincidence. If the body stalls, the club will release to all sorts of angles.

After impact, the player can do whatever they want, but through impact is where the magic happens.
[/quote]
So are you backing off your original example of duffner and using another??? Why did you start with duffner? Of course we want the body to keep rotating through impact. But that does not mean that the arms are just dead and along for the ride. If you want to keep the body rotating through impact you better be firing the arms to keep up with the rotation. Otherwise you end up in Stuck City. It may look like players have the arms physically braced against the body for connection. That is a huge misconception. The muscles in the shoulders and arms are used for connection. they are not literally connected as in pressed together.

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[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1380814952' post='7947471']
[quote name='minitour' timestamp='1380814655' post='7947431']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1380681555' post='7940701']
I find most of the discussion about the greatness of his swing...unimportant to the rest of us.

The one issue that is relevant to all of us getting better is this.

[b]Both his arms rotated inward perfectly in the transition and downswing and connected the rotation of the club to his turn. The rest is just technical nonsense and minutia.[/b]

That is my 2 cents.
[/quote]

Because rotating arms inward and connecting the rotation of the club to the turn isn't technical nonsense.....
[/quote]

In this case, no. Actually, in most cases. [size=5][b]Linking the arms up to the turn is quite possibly the most important thing in the swing[/b][/size].
[/quote]

I wish you had named this thread with this thought instead of its current title. Would be much more relevant and useful.

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[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1380816999' post='7947671']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380816635' post='7947629']
Apples and oranges again KG, classic. All of that is correct, except the fact that none of it relates to the fact that hunter said his INTENT, not "swing key", is to fire his arms as fast as he can. It is not a matter of who makes the best pizza. It's a matter of I say, "I go to John's pizza shop"..... And you say, "we'll maybe the guy who owns that shop isn't really named John. So you are not correct." I get it though, you don't want a back and forth, so lets agree to disagree.
[/quote]

Like I said.

Rational debate becomes pointless.

It is not "apples and oranges". It is the central point here. Regardless of what Mahan's intentions are, biomechanics and anatomy don't ALLOW him to do it. Because the human body doesn't WORK that way. The degree of connection that he maintains between his arms and torso eliminates the necessary degrees of freedom where arm motion is concerned.

Like the old Maine joke, [i]"You can't get there from here." [/i]

The anatomy doens't allow Mahan to actually USE his arms (objectively) in the manner he feels that he is doing (subjectively).

Someone like Fred Couples or Charl Schwartzel? The subjective and objective line up, because they swing in a fashion that allows the right arm a lot more freedom of motion until fairly late in the swing.

Again...the failure to distinguish between the objective and the subjective is why these discussions turn into swamps, and a lot of personal animosity.
[/quote]

Not sure where you are seeing the personal attacks and animosity. When you first stated you felt attacked I apologized. Not sure if you still feel attacked, but I apologize if you do. A lot of times when someone disagrees with a deep emotional belief you posses, it can feel like an attack, that is not my intent.

This discussion started when you stated that Hunter controls the rotation of his arms with his pivot. I stated that that was not possible.
The arms have to do something to keep from being left behind like noodles. Please explain how someone can use completely limp dead arms and control them with a pivot. If you are contesting that the arms are physically pressed against the body and are turned due to that physical connection, then let's just go ahead and agree to disagree. Again, I am not attacking you, and I have no animosity, it's just a discussion.

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In all my research during my swing change from a goat-humping flipper to a rotational swing I never have seen a side by side comparison of Hogan when he was hooking to "after",
I would love to see the video or at least animated gifs to compare what he was doing differently.

I never once tried to imitate Hogan. I definitely used some of the "five lessons" basics as building blocks.
I definitely used "slicefixer" practice techniques to re-train my body to execute, even though I was a "hooker".

I have the common sense to understand that if I am not built exactly like Hogan, or have the same flexibilty and athletic ability, i.e a Hogan clone, I could never possess the same swing.
The drive I have is to put that shaft as close to perpendicular to my rotating spine and to ensure that spine stays as close as possible to a stable (tilted)vertical axis as I can. If I do this successfully, it is pretty easy to stay coinsistent. I believe this is what Hogan found out and executed as close to perfection as anyone has ever done.

The "how" he did that is what drives many to obsess over it. The fact is, one may never get there. At some point we reach our limit to how close we can ever get. Once we do, to get better, we must focus on the other areas of our game that will allow us to score.

The obsession with the swing is over for me now. The challenge that remains is to how to turn those bogeys into pars, the pars into birdies, especially now that frequency of the "others" is a distant memory.

Hogan's Secret.......it's in plain sight but not for everyone...
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[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1380816730' post='7947645']
Ok, a discussion is good. I can tell you why Dufner's elbow isn't connected. It's because his address position is far enough away that if it did connect, he wouldn't reach the ball, but if you really want to see another concept of a "connected-core swing"...
[url="http://www.pgatour.com/content/dam/pgatour/blog/2012/08/swing11.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/original"]http://www.pgatour.c...itions/original[/url]

This is probably the most golden advice- the most accurate strikers have a [i]constantly rotating body[/i] through impact and it's not just a coincidence. If the body stalls, the club will release to all sorts of angles.

After impact, the player can do whatever they want, but through impact is where the magic happens.
[/quote]
Again, static images do no good in analyzing this stuff. Furyk does a very good job of timing and linking his swing. He in no way presses his arms against his body, of all people.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cTuTrpWCZhU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcTuTrpWCZhU

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[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380819116' post='7947831']
[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1380816730' post='7947645']
Ok, a discussion is good. I can tell you why Dufner's elbow isn't connected. It's because his address position is far enough away that if it did connect, he wouldn't reach the ball, but if you really want to see another concept of a "connected-core swing"...
[url="http://www.pgatour.com/content/dam/pgatour/blog/2012/08/swing11.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/original"]http://www.pgatour.c...itions/original[/url]

This is probably the most golden advice- the most accurate strikers have a [i]constantly rotating body[/i] through impact and it's not just a coincidence. If the body stalls, the club will release to all sorts of angles.

After impact, the player can do whatever they want, but through impact is where the magic happens.
[/quote]
Again, static images do no good in analyzing this stuff. Furyk does a very good job of timing and linking his swing. He in no way presses his arms against his body, of all people.

[media=]http://youtube.com/watch?v=cTuTrpWCZhU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcTuTrpWCZhU[/media]
[/quote]

I dunno if I'd put it that way. Furyk gets his right arm more behind him than probably anyone below a 5 handicap, sort of a stay stuck and turn swing. You can keep it pretty stable that way, distance will be an issue, and better not fire those arms or 16 tee at Olympic happens.

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[quote name='gators78' timestamp='1380821760' post='7948097']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380819116' post='7947831']
[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1380816730' post='7947645']
Ok, a discussion is good. I can tell you why Dufner's elbow isn't connected. It's because his address position is far enough away that if it did connect, he wouldn't reach the ball, but if you really want to see another concept of a "connected-core swing"...
[url="http://www.pgatour.com/content/dam/pgatour/blog/2012/08/swing11.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/original"]http://www.pgatour.c...itions/original[/url]

This is probably the most golden advice- the most accurate strikers have a [i]constantly rotating body[/i] through impact and it's not just a coincidence. If the body stalls, the club will release to all sorts of angles.

After impact, the player can do whatever they want, but through impact is where the magic happens.
[/quote]
Again, static images do no good in analyzing this stuff. Furyk does a very good job of timing and linking his swing. He in no way presses his arms against his body, of all people.

[media=]http://youtube.com/watch?v=cTuTrpWCZhU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcTuTrpWCZhU[/media]
[/quote]

I dunno if I'd put it that way. Furyk gets his right arm more behind him than probably anyone below a 5 handicap, sort of a stay stuck and turn swing. You can keep it pretty stable that way, distance will be an issue, and better not fire those arms or 16 tee at Olympic happens.
[/quote]
The point I am making is that even Furyk, as close as his arms are, is not using a physical connection Of pressing his arms against his body to propel his arms.

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[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1380814209' post='7947387']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380809300' post='7947007']
Of course it is common knowledge that if a player says he feels he is coming from the inside, that may not be the case. That is a spatial feel. But if a player, a PGA Tour player, says he is firing his arms as fast as he can, that is exactly what he is doing. Are you suggesting that Hunter Feels like he is firing his arms but really is firing another muscle instead? That is ridiculous. I think you are blinded by the look of the pivot driven swing. You have stated many times that you have a pivot driven swing "like Hunter mahan". So maybe the feel that is not real is on your end. Maybe you have overactive arms so you feel like you're pivot is doing all the work. Did you ever think about that? Maybe Hunters pivot is so ingrained that he has to fire his arms hard to keep them in sync with his body. Not maybe, that is exactly the case. And you can make number lists of all the muscle mumbo-jumbo you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the only way for the pivot to completely control the swing would be to plaster the arms across the body and let them go completely limp. No tour caliber player swings in that fashion.
[/quote]

Like I said, I not interested in a back-and-forth.

Because experience has shown me that this will quickly deteriorate into a lot of snark and personal attacks.

Bottomline, is whenever people start talking about swing mechanics, you quickly wind up with a jumbled mess because most people don't distinguish between feel, real, swing keys, and what is actually happening ---or even possible in some cases---from a biomechanical stand point.

[b]...and lots of people want their personal swing model to be "correct".[/b]

I've said my piece. Clarified my position. Feel free to agree or disagree as you wish.
[/quote]

The importance of the bolded part cannot be overstated. Some people on this board just can't stand when theres a thread about a specific swing thought or goal, but they themselves don't swing that way. Makes people defensive for some reason. Dunno why, makes no sense to me, there are obviously tons of different ways to swing a club. Incidentally, I think OEM "fanboys" suffer from the same issue: They want their OEM to be "correct" and the best, and don't want to hear others saying otherwise.

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[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1380681555' post='7940701']
I find most of the discussion about the greatness of his swing...unimportant to the rest of us.

The one issue that is relevant to all of us getting better is this.

Both his arms rotated inward perfectly in the transition and downswing and connected the rotation of the club to his turn. The rest is just technical nonsense and minutia.

That is my 2 cents.
[/quote]

What about his footwork?

Youtube golf instruction video
only shows a ball distance or direction
of about 3 inches
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[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380818582' post='7947791']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1380816999' post='7947671']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380816635' post='7947629']
Apples and oranges again KG, classic. All of that is correct, except the fact that none of it relates to the fact that hunter said his INTENT, not "swing key", is to fire his arms as fast as he can. It is not a matter of who makes the best pizza. It's a matter of I say, "I go to John's pizza shop"..... And you say, "we'll maybe the guy who owns that shop isn't really named John. So you are not correct." I get it though, you don't want a back and forth, so lets agree to disagree.
[/quote]

Like I said.

Rational debate becomes pointless.

It is not "apples and oranges". It is the central point here. Regardless of what Mahan's intentions are, biomechanics and anatomy don't ALLOW him to do it. Because the human body doesn't WORK that way. The degree of connection that he maintains between his arms and torso eliminates the necessary degrees of freedom where arm motion is concerned.

Like the old Maine joke, [i]"You can't get there from here." [/i]

The anatomy doens't allow Mahan to actually USE his arms (objectively) in the manner he feels that he is doing (subjectively).

Someone like Fred Couples or Charl Schwartzel? The subjective and objective line up, because they swing in a fashion that allows the right arm a lot more freedom of motion until fairly late in the swing.

Again...the failure to distinguish between the objective and the subjective is why these discussions turn into swamps, and a lot of personal animosity.
[/quote]

Not sure where you are seeing the personal attacks and animosity. When you first stated you felt attacked I apologized. Not sure if you still feel attacked, but I apologize if you do. A lot of times when someone disagrees with a deep emotional belief you posses, it can feel like an attack, that is not my intent.

This discussion started when you stated that Hunter controls the rotation of his arms with his pivot. I stated that that was not possible.
The arms have to do something to keep from being left behind like noodles. Please explain how someone can use completely limp dead arms and control them with a pivot. If you are contesting that the arms are physically pressed against the body and are turned due to that physical connection, then let's just go ahead and agree to disagree. Again, I am not attacking you, and I have no animosity, it's just a discussion.
[/quote]

You have a habit of salting your comments with snarky parentheticals. Perhaps you are not aware that you are doing it....

The arms aren't "left behind like noodles". because of [i][b]unconscious muscle activity[/b][/i]. Even if the muscles are not being used to actively and consciously propel the club, they still are active in providing support, stability, and keeping control of a object that moving in excess of 100mph.

Even still---in a body-swing---the upper body has to rotate to a more open position at impact to delive the club, than in swings that are more arm-and-leg driven.

PIng G25 8.5/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping Rapture 13*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping G25 19*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping S55 (3-PW)/ PX 6.5
Ping Tour Gorge 54* and 60*
Odyssey 2-ball Versa, 34"

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[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1380823945' post='7948277']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1380814209' post='7947387']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380809300' post='7947007']
Of course it is common knowledge that if a player says he feels he is coming from the inside, that may not be the case. That is a spatial feel. But if a player, a PGA Tour player, says he is firing his arms as fast as he can, that is exactly what he is doing. Are you suggesting that Hunter Feels like he is firing his arms but really is firing another muscle instead? That is ridiculous. I think you are blinded by the look of the pivot driven swing. You have stated many times that you have a pivot driven swing "like Hunter mahan". So maybe the feel that is not real is on your end. Maybe you have overactive arms so you feel like you're pivot is doing all the work. Did you ever think about that? Maybe Hunters pivot is so ingrained that he has to fire his arms hard to keep them in sync with his body. Not maybe, that is exactly the case. And you can make number lists of all the muscle mumbo-jumbo you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the only way for the pivot to completely control the swing would be to plaster the arms across the body and let them go completely limp. No tour caliber player swings in that fashion.
[/quote]

Like I said, I not interested in a back-and-forth.

Because experience has shown me that this will quickly deteriorate into a lot of snark and personal attacks.

Bottomline, is whenever people start talking about swing mechanics, you quickly wind up with a jumbled mess because most people don't distinguish between feel, real, swing keys, and what is actually happening ---or even possible in some cases---from a biomechanical stand point.

[b]...and lots of people want their personal swing model to be "correct".[/b]

I've said my piece. Clarified my position. Feel free to agree or disagree as you wish.
[/quote]

The importance of the bolded part cannot be overstated. Some people on this board just can't stand when theres a thread about a specific swing thought or goal, but they themselves don't swing that way. Makes people defensive for some reason. Dunno why, makes no sense to me, there are obviously tons of different ways to swing a club. Incidentally, I think OEM "fanboys" suffer from the same issue: They want their OEM to be "correct" and the best, and don't want to hear others saying otherwise.
[/quote]

Part of it, imo, is the residual effects of many golf instructors (in the past) promoting the notion that there was only one, fundamentally "correct" swing.

The other part, imo, is the desire to feel that the way one swings the club is "best"...even if there are different ways of doing it.

Though I'm not sure how one would define that......

PIng G25 8.5/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping Rapture 13*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping G25 19*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping S55 (3-PW)/ PX 6.5
Ping Tour Gorge 54* and 60*
Odyssey 2-ball Versa, 34"

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[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380823616' post='7948235']
[quote name='gators78' timestamp='1380821760' post='7948097']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380819116' post='7947831']
[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1380816730' post='7947645']
Ok, a discussion is good. I can tell you why Dufner's elbow isn't connected. It's because his address position is far enough away that if it did connect, he wouldn't reach the ball, but if you really want to see another concept of a "connected-core swing"...
[url="http://www.pgatour.com/content/dam/pgatour/blog/2012/08/swing11.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/original"]http://www.pgatour.c...itions/original[/url]

This is probably the most golden advice- the most accurate strikers have a [i]constantly rotating body[/i] through impact and it's not just a coincidence. If the body stalls, the club will release to all sorts of angles.

After impact, the player can do whatever they want, but through impact is where the magic happens.
[/quote]
Again, static images do no good in analyzing this stuff. Furyk does a very good job of timing and linking his swing. He in no way presses his arms against his body, of all people.

[media=]http://youtube.com/watch?v=cTuTrpWCZhU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcTuTrpWCZhU[/media]
[/quote]

I dunno if I'd put it that way. Furyk gets his right arm more behind him than probably anyone below a 5 handicap, sort of a stay stuck and turn swing. You can keep it pretty stable that way, distance will be an issue, and better not fire those arms or 16 tee at Olympic happens.
[/quote]
The point I am making is that even Furyk, as close as his arms are, is not using a physical connection Of pressing his arms against his body to propel his arms.
[/quote]

You sure about that? If you don't think his body isn't influencing his arm movement at all then well......nvm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuUX_eOC7JU

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[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380823616' post='7948235']
The point I am making is that even Furyk, as close as his arms are, is not using a physical connection Of pressing his arms against his body to propel his arms.
[/quote]

Really? The only reason his arms come off is b/c the club pulls them away way after the release. His entire left arm is stuck against his torso. The fact that his left arm goes from only upper connection to the ENTIRE ARM being connected at impact is pretty clear that he is pulling wet noodles. Short, but deadly.

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[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380823616' post='7948235']
[quote name='gators78' timestamp='1380821760' post='7948097']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1380819116' post='7947831']
[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1380816730' post='7947645']
Ok, a discussion is good. I can tell you why Dufner's elbow isn't connected. It's because his address position is far enough away that if it did connect, he wouldn't reach the ball, but if you really want to see another concept of a "connected-core swing"...
[url="http://www.pgatour.com/content/dam/pgatour/blog/2012/08/swing11.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/original"]http://www.pgatour.c...itions/original[/url]

This is probably the most golden advice- the most accurate strikers have a [i]constantly rotating body[/i] through impact and it's not just a coincidence. If the body stalls, the club will release to all sorts of angles.

After impact, the player can do whatever they want, but through impact is where the magic happens.
[/quote]
Again, static images do no good in analyzing this stuff. Furyk does a very good job of timing and linking his swing. He in no way presses his arms against his body, of all people.

[media=]http://youtube.com/watch?v=cTuTrpWCZhU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcTuTrpWCZhU[/media]
[/quote]

I dunno if I'd put it that way. Furyk gets his right arm more behind him than probably anyone below a 5 handicap, sort of a stay stuck and turn swing. You can keep it pretty stable that way, distance will be an issue, and better not fire those arms or 16 tee at Olympic happens.
[/quote]
The point I am making is that even Furyk, as close as his arms are, is not using a physical connection Of pressing his arms against his body to propel his arms.
[/quote]

Because Furyk is a two-plane swinger with a hybrid release. IOW, he combines arm swing and body rotation to control the release of his club...and is a fundamentally different way of swinging the club versus a Hogan or a Hunter Mahan.

In fact his swing has more in common with those of Adam Scott and Louis Oosthuizen than with Hogan.


He takes the club back nearly vertically, and reaches the top of his swing with MASSIVE disconnection of his right arm form his torso. He then uses a massive leg-drive, hip-slide to delay his body pivot as he swings his arms down to MEET his torso and reconnect.

He then uses the momentum of his arm swing [i][b]and[/b][/i] the rotation of his body through the hitting area to release the club. Which is why his arms go around his body to the left, rather than up-and-out away from his body ala Rickie Folwer.

Which is why---despite all the moving parts in his backswing and transition----Furyk is one of the game's most consistent ball strikers. Because---once those arms reconnect to the torso---the number of things that can go "wrong" in his swing drop dramatically.

OTOH, the right arm never wanders away from the body in Hogan or Mahan's case...so there is nowhere for it to go but to slave itself to the rotation of the body.

PIng G25 8.5/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping Rapture 13*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping G25 19*/Fuji MS 7.2 TS X
Ping S55 (3-PW)/ PX 6.5
Ping Tour Gorge 54* and 60*
Odyssey 2-ball Versa, 34"

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