Country Club Gift Certificates....and the law

[Sean2]

I don't know, you had nine months to use it. Seems like plenty of time. You could see if the CC will extend it, if not then that's that.

[TJCDAS]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1388448247' post='8370301']
i think "country club gift certificates.....and da law" was an Ali G episode at one point. If it wasn't it should have been

I don't see the point really. If they refuse to honor it and you fight them all you are going to do is make trouble for your friend. As others have said i'd have the friend work it out with the club, i'm sure they'll be reasonable
[/quote]

Respek!!!!

[eagles1]

[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1388450167' post='8370461']
[quote name='eagles1' timestamp='1388447825' post='8370253']
Hawkeye77

Good point regarding the "public" marketing aspect. Perhaps that makes a difference.

Thank you.
[/quote]

Actually, the whole gift card vs. gift certificate question is interesting, and it appears there is quite a variety in state laws. [b]Maybe the full disclosure at the beginning of the thread would have avoided some of the unintended results. Sometimes starting a thread is like cliff diving without knowing for sure how deep the water is.[/b]
[/quote]

I know. I try to be succinct with my posts as to not drag them on, more so as a courtesy to the reader. It's also a trait that comes with my profession, as motives are for the most part irrelevant. I could have done a better job with this OP. However, I wish more people would just read the lines of a post when formulating a response versus trying to read between them.

[596]

I just sold a business that had out standing gift certificates, some expired, some not. It's always a huge issue whenever a similar business is sold. BTW - these are bed and breakfasts. We have bought and sold 3 of them since 2002. The laws changed in 2010. Before that, all certificates had expiration dates when provided, by the business. If no expiration date was listed they would be good forever. However the Feds got involved and then states got involved starting in 2010.

We had expiration dates on ours but it also came down to whether or not the certificate was a dollar value to be spent or a "service to be provided", (ie - a specific room night or room). It gets very confusing and tough to interpret for a business owner or customer. We actually got to the point that we stopped issuing certificates because people would get all bent that they lost them or were so busy for the last year and half that they had NO chance to travel 2 hours to stay at our place for a night. I got tired of the sob stories.

BTW - we honored ALL expired certificates. We never turned anyone away, even ones we were not legally needing to accept because they were expired from the past owner and we didn't receive payment for them at closing or even ones that were over 2 years expired and were just dug up out of a desk during spring cleaning.

All states are different. Some follow federal law and some don't. It's also tough to figure out exactly what qualifies and what does not qualify as a "gift card". (Our certificates qualified)

[Hateto3Putt]

Here's how it works in PA.

I own a business.

If someone exchanges cash (or it's credit equivalent) for a gift card, I cannot by PA law charge additional fees, nor can the value of the card EVER expire.

However, If I DONATE a gift card to anyone/anything (501c3 or not), I can (if I choose) establish/enforce an expiration date.

So in Pennsylvania at least, assuming it was purchased at face value, your gift voucher would be valid.

[xxio]

[quote name='eagles1' timestamp='1388449782' post='8370425']
[quote name='xxio' timestamp='1388447745' post='8370243']
You are an attorney asking for legal advice on a golf forum?

I hope your practice is going well.
[/quote]

No. What I was actually doing was presenting what I though might be an interesting post for discussion on a golf related issue which has turned into an epic fail. So sorry you were inconvenienced enough to post your sarcastic remark.


[/quote]

No problem. I was not inconvenienced at all.

It does call into question the one's own ability to research into jurisprudence in his field of expertise.

Maybe its just me but I would expect a lawyer to do his own legal research instead of consulting golfers on a forum. I would hate for you to have to cite "comment by eagles1, page 2, topic...." as your reference in front of the judge.

It is an interesting topic to start. It is your emphasis that you are a lawyer is what I find ironic.

I would express the same sentiments if Tom Wishon started a topic that asked if butt stiffness makes a difference in how a shaft feels.

[indyvai]

I can't imagine them not honoring it. Most businesses pit expiration dates to motivate the holder to use it, not to screw people who sleep on things...

[eagles1]

[quote name='Hateto3Putt' timestamp='1388452688' post='8370731']
Here's how it works in PA.

I own a business.

If someone exchanges cash (or it's credit equivalent) for a gift card, I cannot by PA law charge additional fees, nor can the value of the card EVER expire.

However, If I DONATE a gift card to anyone/anything (501c3 or not), I can (if I choose) establish/enforce an expiration date.

So in Pennsylvania at least, assuming it was purchased at face value, your gift voucher would be valid.
[/quote]

Can you tell me is your business on of "goods" or one of "services". Also, do you know if PA distinguishes between the two as it relates to expiration?

In this instance, my certificate is for "services" (i.e. - round of golf with cart). Member paid cash for the certificate, same rate as the then going rate for a guest fee greens fee/cart.

[eagles1]

[quote name='xxio' timestamp='1388452994' post='8370757']
[quote name='eagles1' timestamp='1388449782' post='8370425']
[quote name='xxio' timestamp='1388447745' post='8370243']
You are an attorney asking for legal advice on a golf forum?

I hope your practice is going well.
[/quote]

No. What I was actually doing was presenting what I though might be an interesting post for discussion on a golf related issue which has turned into an epic fail. So sorry you were inconvenienced enough to post your sarcastic remark.


[/quote]

No problem. I was not inconvenienced at all.

[b]It does call into question the one's own ability to research into jurisprudence in his field of expertise.[/b]

Maybe its just me but I would expect a lawyer to do his own legal research instead of consulting golfers on a forum. I would hate for you to have to cite "comment by eagles1, page 2, topic...." as your reference in front of the judge.

It is an interesting topic to start. It is your emphasis that you are a lawyer is what I find ironic.

I would express the same sentiments if Tom Wishon started a topic that asked if butt stiffness makes a difference in how a shaft feels.
[/quote]

xxio-

This is not my expertise in the field of law.

Would you go to a dermatologist for a hernia? Would you go the dermatologist for a hernia diagnosis if he researched how to diagnose them? Would you call into question the dermatologist's ability to carry out his profession he didn't know how to diagnose the hernia?

Why not ??? - after all, he's a doctor. It's his profession.

Do you get it now? Good. Now please go away. You add nothing - and it's annoying.

Back on topic. I can get the answer relatively easily in my state within a phone call or two, but thought perhaps the subject may make an interesting point of discussion on this forum, with each state having their own set of laws on the subject.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[deadsolid...shank]

I actually find the topic quite interesting, really don't understand the flak the OP is catching. Never said anything about litigation.

Possibly if it had been presented in an less specific manner (not your gift certificate, just the question in general) it might have stayed on topic a bit better. Seems like so many simply fixated on whether this specific course was going to honor this specific gift certificate rather than the question of whether this type of gift does expire.

Maybe the bad weather over much of the country is having an adverse affect on most of us, we cant get out and play. There seems to be a lot of pent up frustration out there.

[xxio]

Not harping on the topic at all. It is interesting because I have had "rain checks" expire on me as well.

i just found it ironic when legal issues are brought up OP emphasizes he is a lawyer. Personally I would not be hiring a lawyer that decides to consult with non lawyers about consumer legal issues on an open forum. However that is just me and my opinion.

I hope that the OP gets good advice, I hope even more that as a lawyer he does his own legal research even moreso because it is not his field, just to get legal basis for whatever advice he gets on here. I could give my own experience about green fee coupons and even gift certificates in general but without actually doing legal research into applicable statutes in his jurisdiction it would be the same as looking into a crystal ball.

To the OP Happy New Year and I hope you get to use the certificate without any hitches.

[Socrates]

[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1388454320' post='8370923']
I actually find the topic quite interesting, really don't understand the flak the OP is catching. Never said anything about litigation.
[/quote]
I think the reason for a lot of the flak being directed at the OP is that the tenor of the original post was adversarial in nature. It was read by many (myself included) that here was a guy who got a gift and then, for no fault of any of the other parties, didn't use it. If he didn't get his way, he was prepared to circle the legal wagons and take them to court and wanted to know if he had legal backing.

He should have just come out and said he was a lawyer and wanted legal opinions from lawyers only. If he had been straight with us in the beginning, this would have gone a different way. We might all not be lawyers, but we still get our backs up when people play us.

And yes, it's going to be -47º tomorrow morning and we are easily agitated.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='TJCDAS' timestamp='1388450707' post='8370531']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1388448247' post='8370301']
i think "country club gift certificates.....and da law" was an Ali G episode at one point. If it wasn't it should have been

I don't see the point really. If they refuse to honor it and you fight them all you are going to do is make trouble for your friend. As others have said i'd have the friend work it out with the club, i'm sure they'll be reasonable
[/quote]

Respek!!!!
[/quote]

and today we's chattin with eagle1 about ....da law. So you better learn about the law....big up yourself

[deadsolid...shank]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1388461538' post='8371793']
[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1388454320' post='8370923']
I actually find the topic quite interesting, really don't understand the flak the OP is catching. Never said anything about litigation.
[/quote]
I think the reason for a lot of the flak being directed at the OP is that the tenor of the original post was adversarial in nature. It was read by many (myself included) that here was a guy who got a gift and then, for no fault of any of the other parties, didn't use it. If he didn't get his way, he was prepared to circle the legal wagons and take them to court and wanted to know if he had legal backing.

He should have just come out and said he was a lawyer and wanted legal opinions from lawyers only. If he had been straight with us in the beginning, this would have gone a different way. We might all not be lawyers, but we still get our backs up when people play us.

And yes, it's going to be -47º tomorrow morning and we are easily agitated.
[/quote]

I think you're right Socrates, I really didn't read it that way but I can certainly see how you could.

-47*!!!! Oh man, my sympathies. I think we're supposed to have 50* day tomorrow but because my wife has decided we need to do a New Years Eve 5k and then a New Years Day one as well I won't be able to take advantage.

[eagles1]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1388461538' post='8371793']
[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1388454320' post='8370923']
I actually find the topic quite interesting, really don't understand the flak the OP is catching. Never said anything about litigation.
[/quote]
I think the reason for a lot of the flak being directed at the OP is that the tenor of the original post was adversarial in nature. It was read by many (myself included) that here was a guy who got a gift and then, for no fault of any of the other parties, didn't use it. If he didn't get his way, he was prepared to circle the legal wagons and take them to court and wanted to know if he had legal backing.

He should have just come out and said he was a lawyer and wanted legal opinions from lawyers only. If he had been straight with us in the beginning, this would have gone a different way. We might all not be lawyers, but we still get our backs up when people play us.

And yes, it's going to be -47º tomorrow morning and we are easily agitated.
[/quote]

I can understand your statement made in your first paragraph. As I stated, I could have done a much better job with the OP and can see how people could have interpreted the post the way you present. However, I didn't expect so many to jump to the conclusion that I was sitting at the court steps with complaint in hand. Unfortunately, jumping to conclusions happens all too frequently on this board, almost always with a negative context. It's like people are trying to "find" something to pounce on. I personalized the story because I thought it would make for a more interesting context. My mistake. Next time I'll be more general.

Where I disagree is where you state that I was "looking for legal opinions from lawyers only". If that were the case, I wouldn't have posted in this forum. Yes, if there are lawyers out there who want to comment, that would be great. However, you don't have to be a lawyer to know the law. Laws are learned, many times through personal experiences. So I guess in the end, I wanted it out in the open, for all who had legal or personal experience knowledge to opine.

Also, the reference about not being straight up and "being played"? Have no idea where that comes from.

This is an open forum related to golf, no?

[Hateto3Putt]

Can you tell me is your business on of "goods" or one of "services". Also, do you know if PA distinguishes between the two as it relates to expiration?

 

In this instance, my certificate is for "services" (i.e. - round of golf with cart). Member paid cash for the certificate, same rate as the then going rate for a guest fee greens fee/cart.

 

The business is a restaurant. Regardless of goods or services, I believe PA only allows expiration under the following circumstances.

1. A donated certificate/card where the recipient receives the value for no monetary exchange.
   
2. A promotional type card, for example, the recipient pays $50 for $75 value. The "free" money ($25) can expire, the $50 cannot..
   

 

I have had this exact same "expired greens fees" scenario happen to me. I had lost in the shuffle, then the next summer found a foursome with carts certificate for Southpointe Golf club (home of the Mylan Classic). The certificate was "won" in a silent auction type situation so the money exchanged was a grey area as the course had donated to the cause, but the cause auctioned for a profit.

 

Anyone care to guess the final outcome?

 

Interesting topic. Why people choose to crap on it, and personally attack is beyond me.

 

Happy New Year.

 

[4Wedges]

FYI...the posted image is throwing a warning from my AV system...at least I believe that to be the case as it's the only thing I don't see on the page.

[Socrates]

[quote name='eagles1' timestamp='1388501473' post='8373491']
I can understand your statement, in particular your first paragraph. As I stated, I could have done a much better job with the OP and can see how people could have interpreted the post the way you present. However, I didn't expect so many to jump to the conclusion that I was sitting at the court steps with complaint in hand. Unfortunately, jumping to conclusions happens all to frequently on this board, almost always with a negative context. It's like people are trying to "find" something to pounce on.

Where I disagree is where you state that I was "looking for legal opinions from lawyers only". If that were the case, I wouldn't have posted in this forum. Yes, if there are lawyers out there who want to comment, that would be great. However, you don't have to be a lawyer to know the law. Laws are learned, many times through personal experiences. So I guess in the end, I wanted it out in the open, for all who had legal or personal experience knowledge to opine.
[/quote]
Fair enough. Let us know how it all turns out.

[TJCDAS]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1388461830' post='8371829']
[quote name='TJCDAS' timestamp='1388450707' post='8370531']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1388448247' post='8370301']
i think "country club gift certificates.....and da law" was an Ali G episode at one point. If it wasn't it should have been

I don't see the point really. If they refuse to honor it and you fight them all you are going to do is make trouble for your friend. As others have said i'd have the friend work it out with the club, i'm sure they'll be reasonable
[/quote]

Respek!!!!
[/quote]

and today we's chattin with eagle1 about ....da law. So you better learn about the law....big up yourself
[/quote]

But like whad if day don't like carrots?

[RJRJRJ]

Is there a dollar value printed on the certificate? If not, what happens if green fees have gone up?

In any event, id just call the place and ask. If they say you can't use it, that should be the end. Don't jeopardize your friend's membership status over a round of golf. If he wants to help you out, let him make that decision on his own.

[Hateto3Putt]

[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1388502470' post='8373557']
FYI...the posted image is throwing a warning from my AV system...at least I believe that to be the case as it's the only thing I don't see on the page.
[/quote]

Changed it to a non animated photo.

[4Wedges]

That was it.

[secretmidam]

My opinion is that if you didn't use it within the clearly stated date- what entitlement do you have? None. Ask them to see if they honor it- if they don't- you're SOL. The date was stated so you really have zero argument here. It's up to the course to decide if they want to honor it after stated expiration date, not the law. At my shop, we give 1 year upon purchase of a gift certificate, and I would have no issue honoring it within reason.

[phatchrisrules]

I have a question that fits neatly into this thread, instead of starting a new one. I work for a big box store that at one time or another sold gift cards for services. They were for golf lesson packages specifically, but they were put on general gift cards. For ease, the issuing store held onto these cards because it got to a point where the customers didn't have them or lost the cards therefore leaving us with no way to track how many lessons they had paid for vs. used, etc.

Our problem is this: We have dozens gift cards that have no home, they are not being used and some were purchased close to 10 years ago. The phone number/e-mail issued to the cards are no longer in service and/or active. What do we do with these cards? Obviously the value does not depreciate, but this money is also sitting in some reserve spot in space that has been spent. Legally, what is the protocol behind this if we cannot get in touch with the purchaser? Some of these cards have several hundreds of dollars on them.