External shoulder rotation in downswing

[Chunkitgood]

Someone recently post of a video from Mr. Gankas about things that do not get you into external rotation.  That was the first inkling I had that you are supposed to do it in the first place.  If it was ever talked about in all the books I read over the years it must have gone over my head.  In that thread Me. Goldfarb was kind enough to explain what it meant.

 

Anyway, I tried it out and the experience makes me want to subject myself to ridicule by using words like “epiphany.”  It leads me to imagine at least that I understand what loading the shaft, feeling the club head, “lashing at the ball” (per Mr. Armour), and host of other common expressions mean.

 

I did some internet looking and did not find any clear indications, however, that it really is a necessary and/or proper move, at least as an intentional move.  The subject just does not seem to get mentioned as much as it should if it is as important as it now seems to me to be.  I did find this which did not really clear things up for me.

 

 

So, is external rotation a part of all good swings, some good swings, or no good swings?

 

It seems to me that in say pitching a baseball there is some initial internal rotation (palm pointing down) going back and then external rotation before delivery.

 

Assuming it’s a good thing, should it be done intentionally, or is it supposed to just occur as a  reaction to proper body movement, as seems to be suggested by some?

 

 

[golfarb1]

To understand right shoulder external rotation you need to understand 2 concepts 

1. Because trail shoulder external rotation rotates the humerus ( upper arm bone ) within the shoulder joint and because the other end of the humerus forms the elbow joint, movement of the TRAIL ELBOW is the MARKER  for right shoulder external rotation . 
2.The KEY to understanding right shoulder external rotation is the TRAIL ELBOW MOVES a LONGER DISTANCE TOWARDS the TARGET LINE than the HANDS during early transition . From a DTL view , this will result in a change in the angle of the trail forearm . To accomplish this the TRAIL ELBOW must move FASTER than the HANDS in early transition .
If the hands and trail elbow move the same amount at the same speed , there will be no trail shoulder external rotation . 
 

Trail shoulder external rotation accomplishes  two things . First it will shallow ( more horizontal) the shaft ; second it will help bring the the trail elbow on and in front of the right hip at impact. 

It is present in most swings of top players in varying degrees. 
 

Because torso rotation results in a steepening affect upon the shaft, shallowing the shaft is a necessary  requirement in rotational swings. 

A common visual for trail shoulder external rotation is LOSING an arm wrestling contest .

 

Some instructors believe that once the clubhead starts moving behind the golfer , the weight of the clubhead will automatically result in trail shoulder external rotation . Given the plethora of posts on shallowing , there are many golfers who seem to disagree . 
 

Please look at the enclosed video, focusing on the movement of the hands vs the trail elbow. Notice how the angle of the trail forearm changes  in first few frames in transition .

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by golfarb1

[dack]

@golfarb1 This is maybe the best explanation of external shoulder rotation I've seen. Your .mov is currently unavailable. Can you please re-upload it or maybe post on youtube? Thanks!

[Jeselnik]

AMG has a video on shallowing, I think they said pro’s internal.  There may be some give in the shoulder blade and spine.  They also have a similar video on backswing shoulder turn arm swing, both excellent videos.

 

On another note, issues don’t originate from not doing something extraordinary.  Issues tend to arise from the basic errors and poor matchups.

 

JNIK

[iacas]

GEARS doesn't measure internal/external shoulder rotation. It's not an easy thing to truly measure. I think most good players go slightly external early in the downswing, but end up being in slight internal rotation at impact. Dr. Kwon's graph shows that, I think, as well.

[glk]

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

GEARS doesn't measure internal/external shoulder rotation. It's not an easy thing to truly measure. I think most good players go slightly external early in the downswing, but end up being in slight internal rotation at impact. Dr. Kwon's graph shows that, I think, as well.

[rondo01]

12 minutes ago, glk said:

sorry GLK, could you translate just a touch? 

[glk]

9 minutes ago, rondo01 said:

sorry GLK, could you translate just a touch? 

Dr Kwon's chart for 85 elite golfers.    middle line is average - other two lines are one std.   Shows shoulder motion pattern -  at IR in setup - moves to ER, then IR during backswing then from the top moves to ER and then again to IR.  ED (8) is shaft vertical and can see a steep climb to IR otherwise the motion is relatively small in fluctuation.   He doesn't use the P system 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by glk

[iacas]

4 hours ago, glk said:

Yes, that one. Thank you.

[golfarb1]

20 hours ago, dack said:

@golfarb1 This is maybe the best explanation of external shoulder rotation I've seen. Your .mov is currently unavailable. Can you please re-upload it or maybe post on youtube? Thanks!

Touch the arrow/ hands to activate the video

Edited May 21, 2023 by golfarb1

[golferdude54]

Nicklaus had the most external internal trail shoulder rotation in his backswing out of anyone except Wolff. You could literally see his right elbow above his left arm in the face on view at P3, most pros cover it at that point. 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by golferdude54
iacas correcting me in internal vs. external definition in post below mine

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

Nicklaus had the most external trail shoulder rotation in his backswing out of anyone except Wolff.

 

This is internal rotation.

 

 

 

[golferdude54]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

This is internal rotation.

 

 

 

 

Aw shucks, I completely mixed them up, honest mistake. I'm like Derek Zoolander, I try to turn left but I turn right instead!