Junior Golf Hub & TUGR both weak

[golferdad8]

…and neither ready for prime time. 
 

Just listened to JGH YouTube where they interview some coaches. The videos are actually not bad, but it’s their shameless plugs for their JGH ranking system is pathetic as it’s clearly not ready for prime time. 

JGH are not software guys & it’s been at least 3 years & they still can’t get the data input correctly. In a cursory search, Miles shows up as class of 2024 & my son’s missing 1/3 of his tournaments.

 

Also, as much as people fault JGS for their methodology, at least there’s transparency. For JGH, there’s no transparency on what factors explain a player’s ranking. 

 

Has anyone tried TUGR? Seems to be similar garbage in, garbage out. They claim to be the most thorough but they’re missing lots of tournaments - including amateur events (that include college/post college kids). Further, they also lacks transparency for the data to show why one player is ranked higher than another.  

Lastly, as much as people criticize JGS, I don’t hear any real coaches talk about either of these rankings to help with recruiting.  

[leezer99]

You may think TUGR is weak but it's what college coaches are looking at now. They are very happy with how it's ranking kids head to head and how you can't 'game' the system.

[TroyB123]

11 hours ago, leezer99 said:

You may think TUGR is weak but it's what college coaches are looking at now. They are very happy with how it's ranking kids head to head and how you can't 'game' the system.

If that's actually true, then I guess kids who aren't in Florida or California are pretty screwed.  It seems thorough in including tournaments in those areas, but is missing hundreds or thousands of good to very good 36-54 hole junior tournaments outside those states.

[golferdad8]

11 hours ago, leezer99 said:

You may think TUGR is weak but it's what college coaches are looking at now. They are very happy with how it's ranking kids head to head and how you can't 'game' the system.

“It’s what college coaches are looking at now…” - really? 
This quote is pure propaganda & I find it tough to believe that top college coaches would switch over to a new unproven system which is incomplete & missing lots of data.

So far, all I’ve seen are anecdotal evidence that slicing & dicing player data can reverse engineer the top 20 or so players in a recruiting class - but this is not a repeatable system and is merely smoke & mirrors to persuade audiences that TUGR works for the majority of the coaches trying to fill their 1,000 slots. 

[leezer99]

1 hour ago, TroyB123 said:

If that's actually true, then I guess kids who aren't in Florida or California are pretty screwed.  It seems thorough in including tournaments in those areas, but is missing hundreds or thousands of good to very good 36-54 hole junior tournaments outside those states.

🔸14,582 Junior Boys ranked

🔹5,332 Junior Girls ranked

▪️70,000+ juniors in the database

 

You simply need 8 competitive tournament rounds in the last 18 months. If your child played in an event that you don't see in the rankings then let them know.

[leezer99]

46 minutes ago, golferdad8 said:

“It’s what college coaches are looking at now…” - really? 
This quote is pure propaganda & I find it tough to believe that top college coaches would switch over to a new unproven system which is incomplete & missing lots of data.

So far, all I’ve seen are anecdotal evidence that slicing & dicing player data can reverse engineer the top 20 or so players in a recruiting class - but this is not a repeatable system and is merely smoke & mirrors to persuade audiences that TUGR works for the majority of the coaches trying to fill their 1,000 slots. 

Yes. For the 58 threads on here of how flawed the JGS system has been it was a welcome change. 

 

The system is not unproven. If you would like to learn more then please visit their FAQ page.

[golferdad8]

1 hour ago, leezer99 said:

Yes. For the 58 threads on here of how flawed the JGS system has been it was a welcome change. 

 

The system is not unproven. If you would like to learn more then please visit their FAQ page.

I don’t think TUGR’s reputation is good enough to ask 10k+ potential customers to pay and do more work to “help TUGR” improve their database.
 

I do know that they didn’t have amateur events on there - so the top junior players who compete against college players and beat each other (as my kid did many times against TUGR ranked players) will not be reflected.
 

Further, if you look at recent Tran-miss leaderboard of bottom guys who are 12+ over & missed cuts (these “top juniors” are not as good as their TUGR ranks suggest). How do I know? I’ve seen the head to head amateurs when many of these kids play. As I said, garbage in garbage out. Get the product right & the subscribers will come. 

 

 

[wegobomber31]

I think JGS is firmly seated as the king, for better or worse. TUGR is pretty ambitious and I think it could end up being the best/most accurate, especially if they can create a link between their pro and junior rankings by including the amateur and college events that sit between the two.
 

I’ve thought about building out a universal ranking system across the various levels of golf. But it hardly seems worth it. Who needs another junior golf ranking? Is that really an untapped market? JGS is largely fine in my opinion. 
 

 I simply see golf as a game of skill and a tournament round as an expression of the players skill relative to every one else that day, regardless of whether it’s a junior, amateur or professional tournament. Each round is a window into the players underlying skill. 

TUGR could probably get there as they have two of the three legs already. 
 

Datagolf does a good job with its Amateur ranking, but it doesn’t have the depth of players and they are simply using WAGR tournaments. But they are able to connect mostly college players as they move into professional. If they had a broader set of tournaments it could prove to be very accurate and useful. 

 

 

 

 

 

[wegobomber31]

5 minutes ago, golferdad8 said:

I don’t think TUGR’s reputation is good enough to ask 10k+ potential customers to pay and do more work to “help TUGR” improve their database.
 

I do know that they didn’t have amateur events on there - so the top junior players who compete against college players and beat each other (as my kid did many times against TUGR ranked players) will not be reflected.
 

Further, if you look at recent Tran-miss leaderboard of bottom guys who are 12+ over & missed cuts (these “top juniors” are not as good as their TUGR ranks suggest). How do I know? I’ve seen the head to head amateurs when many of these kids play. As I said, garbage in garbage out. Get the product right & the subscribers will come. 

 

 

I’m not sure I follow your point about the Trans Miss. I only see two juniors on the leaderboard - Gross and Bai, and they are both very good. 

[golfdad1]

17 minutes ago, wegobomber31 said:

I’m not sure I follow your point about the Trans Miss. I only see two juniors on the leaderboard - Gross and Bai, and they are both very good. 

Asher Whitaker did very well.

[golferdad8]

10 hours ago, wegobomber31 said:

I’m not sure I follow your point about the Trans Miss. I only see two juniors on the leaderboard - Gross and Bai, and they are both very good. 

You didn’t see James Lee 2025 ranked high TUGR & Golf Hub w minimal tournaments but near the bottom? What about 2024 USC Dudumaya? Again, this isn’t to knock these two players but that rather show that these “new” supposedly better rankings are NOT ready for prime time. Let’s make this product decent before trying to promote or market it as a superior product over an incumbent.
 

Marketing 101  - against incumbents if truly to tout it (as it’s been doing) as the “new” great thing - gotta be 10x better for same price - or similar product for 1/10th the cost. 

Edited July 15 by golferdad8

[leezer99]

22 hours ago, golferdad8 said:

I don’t think TUGR’s reputation is good enough to ask 10k+ potential customers to pay and do more work to “help TUGR” improve their database.
 

I do know that they didn’t have amateur events on there - so the top junior players who compete against college players and beat each other (as my kid did many times against TUGR ranked players) will not be reflected.
 

Further, if you look at recent Tran-miss leaderboard of bottom guys who are 12+ over & missed cuts (these “top juniors” are not as good as their TUGR ranks suggest). How do I know? I’ve seen the head to head amateurs when many of these kids play. As I said, garbage in garbage out. Get the product right & the subscribers will come. 

 

 

Weird how this player has three AM events in their profile. 

[golferdad8]

Colton is good, but these are JUNIOR JGS events. 
 

Show me some top finishes from big boy amateur events against Top D1 players & see if ANY of them show up on TUGR.
 

When junior players beat D1 wagr players & the tournament doesn’t show up in the rankings, how is this considered the comprehensive head to head ranking benchmark!?! 
 

As I said, I’m not saying TUGR’s goals are now worthy. It’s just that it’s not ready for prime time & they’re failing because they’re over promising & under delivering. Let’s make this as good as they’re promoting - capture ALL tournaments, including one day top US Am events, and use the freemium model to get mass adoption. At this point, TUGR going to be Junior Golf Hub, part Deux! 

[wegobomber31]

10 hours ago, leezer99 said:

Weird how this player has three AM events in their profile. 

Terra cotta and what else?

 

Am events are great data points if they include your head to head performance against the Am’s, not just how you did against other juniors. 

[leezer99]

TUGR has 30% more juniors ranked than JGS and thousands more than the Hub (who is trying to rank 9 hole events!).

 

They also have more events ranked per player than either JGS or the Hub.

 

22 minutes ago, wegobomber31 said:

Terra cotta and what else?

 

Am events are great data points if they include your head to head performance against the Am’s, not just how you did against other juniors. 

 

So now you want a system that ranks your kid against perennial AM's like Stewart Hagestad and every college player out there?

[golferdad8]

Pls stop trying to justify TUGR - it’s not ready for prime time & you keep trying to say it’s better. Other then “friends” - no players care about this and no top coaches care either. 
 

Bottom line. There’s no transparency and there’s no critical mass. Thousands of “players” listed who don’t matter (to coaches) and you’re saying they love TUGR…smh. 

[TroyB123]

TUGR doesn't even include a junior state tournament like this:

https://vsga-72ndvsgajuniorstrokeplaychampionshi.golfgenius.com/pages/4636448

 

It is a 54 hole event won by an NC State commit, that has a field with an Auburn commit, VA Tech commit and multiple other D1 and D3 commits.   How can you claim it is ready for prime time with omissions like that?  Sure, if I emailed them, I'm sure they'd include it, but that goes back to the other point of not wanting to buy a subscription and do their work for them.  If they are missing tournaments like this, I'm sure they are missing dozens of similar events in states that aren't California or Florida.

 

 

 

 

[leezer99]

54 minutes ago, golferdad8 said:

Pls stop trying to justify TUGR - it’s not ready for prime time & you keep trying to say it’s better. Other then “friends” - no players care about this and no top coaches care either. 
 

Bottom line. There’s no transparency and there’s no critical mass. Thousands of “players” listed who don’t matter (to coaches) and you’re saying they love TUGR…smh. 

Don’t be upset when jgs gives up the ghost. TUGR is further along than jgs has come in 25 years. Plus they are constantly consulting with D1 coaches and have had more sign up this week. 
 

You’re either part of the problem or solution. Choose your own adventure. 

[leezer99]

47 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

TUGR doesn't even include a junior state tournament like this:

https://vsga-72ndvsgajuniorstrokeplaychampionshi.golfgenius.com/pages/4636448

 

It is a 54 hole event won by an NC State commit, that has a field with an Auburn commit, VA Tech commit and multiple other D1 and D3 commits.   How can you claim it is ready for prime time with omissions like that?  Sure, if I emailed them, I'm sure they'd include it, but that goes back to the other point of not wanting to buy a subscription and do their work for them.  If they are missing tournaments like this, I'm sure they are missing dozens of similar events in states that aren't California or Florida.

 

 

 

 

Great example… That event ended on Wednesday July 10th and they update every Wednesday with the previous week’s events so maybe wait until the 17th to see if it’s there. 
 

 

[TroyB123]

1 hour ago, leezer99 said:

Great example… That event ended on Wednesday July 10th and they update every Wednesday with the previous week’s events so maybe wait until the 17th to see if it’s there. 
 

 

Well, TUGR doesn't have last year's tournament.   https://www.golfgenius.com/pages/4032623

 

Or is a 54 hole tournament won by a kid who is number 2 at W&M as a freshman this year who beat out a 2025 Auburn commit, 2024 NC State commit an irrelevant tournament?

 

How can you claim that TUGR is ready for prime time if there are omissions like this all over the country?

Edited July 16 by TroyB123

[golferdad8]

TUGR marketing dept & its disciples are using same Tesla 2016 playbook about the cars being Full Self Driving (FSD) haha. 

[wegobomber31]

4 hours ago, leezer99 said:

TUGR has 30% more juniors ranked than JGS and thousands more than the Hub (who is trying to rank 9 hole events!).

 

They also have more events ranked per player than either JGS or the Hub.

 

 

So now you want a system that ranks your kid against perennial AM's like Stewart Hagestad and every college player out there?

yes, that would be the holy grail. 
 

Ps what 3 Am events are on Luke Colton’s tournament history?

[wegobomber31]

On 7/14/2024 at 9:21 PM, golferdad8 said:

You didn’t see James Lee 2025 ranked high TUGR & Golf Hub w minimal tournaments but near the bottom? What about 2024 USC Dudumaya? Again, this isn’t to knock these two players but that rather show that these “new” supposedly better rankings are NOT ready for prime time. Let’s make this product decent before trying to promote or market it as a superior product over an incumbent.
 

Marketing 101  - against incumbents if truly to tout it (as it’s been doing) as the “new” great thing - gotta be 10x better for same price - or similar product for 1/10th the cost. 

I stand corrected. I had honestly never heard of James Lee (even though that’s my first and middle name) and thought Jaden was already in college.

 

i think TUGR has a lot of promise. And could end up being the most comprehensive junior golf ranking out there. More power to them. 

[leezer99]

Love it or hate it but colleges are getting on board with TUGR.

 

[golferdad8]

Spoke w a top golf coach recently & asked him about TUGR. He said he’s heard of it but doesn’t know much about it. Clearly all this promotion about massive adoption is like Tesla & (Musk bragging that the cars being FULL SELF driving since 2015).

 

Make the product better & let the customers give testimonials instead of self promoting - it works better. 

[davidinhk]

My understanding is that TUGR is calculated primarily by head to head "matchup" datapoints. What happens when the class of '24s juniors are no longer ranked when they begin collegiate golf?  Is their data and tournament scores removed from the database - or are they still used as data points for ranking of remaining juniors, some of whom may have aged up and played against them the past 2-3 years?  Also, does TUGR add a weighing factor so that recent performance is much more heavily weighted vs say 12-18 mos ago?  

[LOB-Dwight]

1 minute ago, davidinhk said:

My understanding is that TUGR is calculated primarily by head to head "matchup" datapoints. What happens when the class of '24s juniors are no longer ranked when they begin collegiate golf?  Is their data and tournament scores removed from the database - or are they still used as data points for ranking of remaining juniors, some of whom may have aged up and played against them the past 2-3 years?  Also, does TUGR add a weighing factor so that recent performance is much more heavily weighted vs say 12-18 mos ago?  

Good question on the 2024’s moving out of rankings. I would think those data points should remain….. I think recent results are more heavily weighted

[leezer99]

21 minutes ago, LOB-Dwight said:

Good question on the 2024’s moving out of rankings. I would think those data points should remain….. I think recent results are more heavily weighted

If you think it's a good question then check out their FAQ's!

 

• The TUGR Junior rankings have an 18-month lookback with more weight given to the most recent tournaments. Tournaments lose weight in a linear fashion from 100% to 0% over the course of the 18 months. 

Edited August 1 by leezer99

[golferdad8]

6 hours ago, LOB-Dwight said:

Good question on the 2024’s moving out of rankings. I would think those data points should remain….. I think recent results are more heavily weighted

Most 2024s are/have not been playing in many tournaments. Has anyone seen Yana Wilson or Clark VG/Jaden D in past 4 months? 

[leezer99]

4 hours ago, golferdad8 said:

Most 2024s are/have not been playing in many tournaments. Has anyone seen Yana Wilson or Clark VG/Jaden D in past 4 months? 

Clark and Jaden played in the Brandon Wu AJGA event a few weeks ago.