Need Ruling

[Well Played]

Double Hit?

I double hit the ball out of a bunker... How many strokes?

I was buried in a greenside bunker and while trying to splash it out I hit the ball on my follow through. My playing partner tried to argue that because the club face probably didn't come into contact with the ball initially I would only need to count it as one stroke. While I agreed a typical bunker "splash" probably never actually meets the clubface with the ball, I disagreed with his logic in that it only counts then as one stroke. He makes a good point in that it's just one swing at the ball. I still counted it as an extra stroke, can anyone confirm? You guys/gals are usually so responsive and accurate that I am too lazy these days to just look it up on the USGA's website.

Thanks.

[Well Played]

Nevermind, looked it up... Definitley an extra stroke.

[jjj912]

You are correct, add an additional stroke to your score.

 

As for your playing partner, he could use a refresher on the definition of a stroke.

 

A "stroke" is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.

 

Attempting to hit and move the ball counts as a stroke, regardless of the contact, or lack thereof, between the ball and the club.

[KevCarter]

You are correct, add an additional stroke to your score.

 

As for your playing partner, he could use a refresher on the definition of a stroke.

 

A "stroke" is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.

 

Attempting to hit and move the ball counts as a stroke, regardless of the contact, or lack thereof, between the ball and the club.

 

jjj912,

 

I agree with your thinking, and with the result the OP ended up with. However, I don't think the answer was that simple to arrive at. I had the same thing happen to me, buried lie in a FW bunker. I immediately took a one shot penalty, but in the days that followed gave it a lot of thought.

 

Remember, the contact occurred during the stroke, not a second stroke... Does the timing of when in the stroke the ball is contacted matter?

 

I actually wrote the USGA to be sure I ruled on this properly in the future. The answer was exactly as you feel it should be, and the same as I originally ruled on myself.

 

Maybe my mind is a little twisted, but I still find this question interesting.

 

Cheers,

Kevin

[jjj912]

For clarification, Rule 14-4 governs multiple hits during the course of a stroke.

 

14-4. Striking the Ball More Than Once

If a player's club strikes the ball more than once in the course of a stroke, the player must count the stroke and add a penalty stroke, making two strokes in all.

 

My uncle told me that at one time there was a golfer who figured out how to double hit the ball on purpose. As a result he could hit the ball a very long ways and thus gained a large advantage over other players. So, the rules were changed to make hitting the ball more than once during a stroke be a penalty. I don't know if the story is true or not.

 

For you reading pleasure, here's a selection of other Rules and Decisions that pertain to hitting the ball after the initial stroke. Rule 19-2 comes into play in a lot of situations. The rules are pretty tough. Once you make a stroke, you better get out of the way or you're liable to get smacked with a penalty.

 

Rule 19-2 says, among other things, "If a player's ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by himself, his partner or either of their caddies or equipment, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke."

 

Decision

14-4/1 Ball Falls on Club Face After Stroke and Sticks to Mud Thereon

 

Q. A player, making a stroke at his ball on the bank of a bunker, hit the ball straight up. The ball came down and adhered to mud on the face of the club. Was the player in breach of Rule 14-4?

 

A. No. However, the player stopped his ball and was in breach of Rule 19-2.

 

In match play and stroke play, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and must drop the ball as near as possible to the spot where the ball adhered to the club (Rule 19-2).

 

But see Decision 1-4/2. (Revised)

 

 

Decision

14-4/2 Ball Strikes Pipeline and on Rebound Is Deflected by Face of Club

 

Q. A player’s ball strikes a pipeline and on the rebound hits the face of his club. Is the player considered to have struck the ball more than once in breach of Rule 14-4?

 

A. No. The player did not strike the ball more than once. He struck it once and it rebounded and hit the face of his club. Rule 19-2 applies.

 

 

Decision

14-4/3 Player Hits Behind Ball and Then Strikes Moving Ball

 

Q. In playing a chip shot, a player’s club strikes the ground several inches behind the ball and does not come into contact with the ball. However, the ground is struck with enough force to cause the ball to move. The player’s club continues and strikes the ball while it is moving. What is the ruling?

 

A. The player must count his stroke and add a penalty stroke under Rule 14-4.

 

Even though the club itself did not initially strike the ball, the ball was put into motion due to the stroke; therefore, Rule 14-4 applies. (New)

[KevCarter]

For clarification, Rule 14-4 governs multiple hits during the course of a stroke.

 

Decision

14-4/3 Player Hits Behind Ball and Then Strikes Moving Ball

 

Q. In playing a chip shot, a player’s club strikes the ground several inches behind the ball and does not come into contact with the ball. However, the ground is struck with enough force to cause the ball to move. The player’s club continues and strikes the ball while it is moving. What is the ruling?

 

A. The player must count his stroke and add a penalty stroke under Rule 14-4.

 

Even though the club itself did not initially strike the ball, the ball was put into motion due to the stroke; therefore, Rule 14-4 applies. (New)

 

jjj912,

 

Exactly, Decision 14-4/3 is new this year and finally cleans up the situation we are discussing. The other decisions cited are not relevant IMO. As i said, I still believe this was an interesting question.

 

Kevin

[Well Played]

Kev, jjj,

 

Thanks for this feedback... Very helpful!

[KevCarter]

Kev, jjj,

 

Thanks for this feedback... Very helpful!

 

WellShafted,

 

jjj912 nailed it! I just wanted to share that I found it interesting based upon my experience. Thanks for posting the topic!

 

Kevin

[xan_user]

Silly hypothetical situation..along these lines..

 

So whats the ruling if you whiff and during the completion of the missed swing drop the club and it hits the ball? (ie drop club before the swing is completed motion)

 

I swung at the ball, and the club hit the ball only once. How many strokes?

[KevCarter]

Silly hypothetical situation..

So whats the ruling if you whiff and during the completion of the missed swing drop the club and it hits the ball? (ie drop club before the swing is completed motion)

 

I swung at the ball, and the club hit the ball only once. How many strokes?

 

xan_user,

 

Sorry, I can't find the relevant decision. Pure guess on my part:

 

1 stroke for the whiff.

1 stroke penalty for accidently moving a ball in play.

The ball must be replaced.

 

It sounds as though this may have been part of a test, I look forward to hearing the correct answer.

 

Kevin

[cb_golfer]

Help me out here... My ball was in the tall rough, downhill lie and the ground was quite soft. I hit the ball and a big chunk of sod was on top of my club face during my follow-through the whole time. The ball then came in contact with the sod resting on my club. I'm 100% sure it didn't make contact with any part of my club. Is this a double hit?

 

Let me add that the contact happened during the middle of my follow-through.

[xan_user]

no test. actually curious.-but not enough to start my own thread and not threadjack this one - sorry OP.

 

This thread got me thinking too. The rules seem a bit cloudy in their choice of words regarding timing of stroke and contacting the ball.

 

I'd have to mark it as 2.

 

 

 

I can come up with some far fetched ones...I know.

 

How about if during your down stroke the ball moves but you still complete the stoke and hit the ball before it comes to rest? Then what? I live in earthquake country so it could happen. Or a strong wind might cause it.

 

Silly stuff Golf.

[BDLz]

For clarification, Rule 14-4 governs multiple hits during the course of a stroke.

 

14-4. Striking the Ball More Than Once

If a player's club strikes the ball more than once in the course of a stroke, the player must count the stroke and add a penalty stroke, making two strokes in all.

 

My uncle told me that at one time there was a golfer who figured out how to double hit the ball on purpose. As a result he could hit the ball a very long ways and thus gained a large advantage over other players. So, the rules were changed to make hitting the ball more than once during a stroke be a penalty. I don't know if the story is true or not.

 

For you reading pleasure, here's a selection of other Rules and Decisions that pertain to hitting the ball after the initial stroke. Rule 19-2 comes into play in a lot of situations. The rules are pretty tough. Once you make a stroke, you better get out of the way or you're liable to get smacked with a penalty.

 

Rule 19-2 says, among other things, "If a player's ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by himself, his partner or either of their caddies or equipment, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke."

 

Decision

14-4/1 Ball Falls on Club Face After Stroke and Sticks to Mud Thereon

 

Q. A player, making a stroke at his ball on the bank of a bunker, hit the ball straight up. The ball came down and adhered to mud on the face of the club. Was the player in breach of Rule 14-4?

 

A. No. However, the player stopped his ball and was in breach of Rule 19-2.

 

In match play and stroke play, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and must drop the ball as near as possible to the spot where the ball adhered to the club (Rule 19-2).

 

But see Decision 1-4/2. (Revised)

 

 

Decision

14-4/2 Ball Strikes Pipeline and on Rebound Is Deflected by Face of Club

 

Q. A player’s ball strikes a pipeline and on the rebound hits the face of his club. Is the player considered to have struck the ball more than once in breach of Rule 14-4?

 

A. No. The player did not strike the ball more than once. He struck it once and it rebounded and hit the face of his club. Rule 19-2 applies.

 

 

Decision

14-4/3 Player Hits Behind Ball and Then Strikes Moving Ball

 

Q. In playing a chip shot, a player’s club strikes the ground several inches behind the ball and does not come into contact with the ball. However, the ground is struck with enough force to cause the ball to move. The player’s club continues and strikes the ball while it is moving. What is the ruling?

 

A. The player must count his stroke and add a penalty stroke under Rule 14-4.

 

Even though the club itself did not initially strike the ball, the ball was put into motion due to the stroke; therefore, Rule 14-4 applies. (New)

 

 

Highly doubt that the story your uncle told you is true. Double hitting a ball requires for a pretty substantial decelleration through impact and then a quick move from impact to the followthrough. This is definitely not a "power move" that would yield any significant distance.

 

BDLz

[KevCarter]

no test. actually curious.-but not enough to start my own thread and not threadjack this one - sorry OP.

 

This thread got me thinking too. The rules seem a bit cloudy in their choice of words regarding timing of stroke and contacting the ball.

 

I'd have to mark it as 2.

 

 

 

I can come up with some far fetched ones...I know.

 

How about if during your down stroke the ball moves but you still complete the stoke and hit the ball before it comes to rest? Then what? I live in earthquake country so it could happen. Or a strong wind might cause it.

 

Silly stuff Golf.

 

That question is easy as defined by the rules, no decision needed:

 

b. Ball Moving After Address

 

If a player's ball in play moves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and incurs a penalty of one stroke. The ball must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

 

Kevin

[xan_user]

Thanks once again kev.

 

Help me out here... My ball was in the tall rough, downhill lie and the ground was quite soft. I hit the ball and a big chunk of sod was on top of my club face during my follow-through the whole time. The ball then came in contact with the sod resting on my club. I'm 100% sure it didn't make contact with any part of my club. Is this a double hit?

 

Now thats a good one.

[KevCarter]

Thanks once again kev.

 

Help me out here... My ball was in the tall rough, downhill lie and the ground was quite soft. I hit the ball and a big chunk of sod was on top of my club face during my follow-through the whole time. The ball then came in contact with the sod resting on my club. I'm 100% sure it didn't make contact with any part of my club. Is this a double hit?

 

Now thats a good one.

 

How's this?

 

 

14-4/1 Ball Falls on Club Face After Stroke and Sticks to Mud Thereon

Q. A player, making a stroke at his ball on the bank of a bunker, hit the ball straight up. The ball came down and adhered to mud on the face of the club. Was the player in breach of Rule 14-4?

 

A. No. However, the player stopped his ball and was in breach of Rule 19-2.

 

In match play and stroke play, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and must drop the ball as near as possible to the spot where the ball adhered to the club (Rule 19-2).

 

Kevin

[cb_golfer]

Thanks once again kev.

 

Help me out here... My ball was in the tall rough, downhill lie and the ground was quite soft. I hit the ball and a big chunk of sod was on top of my club face during my follow-through the whole time. The ball then came in contact with the sod resting on my club. I'm 100% sure it didn't make contact with any part of my club. Is this a double hit?

 

Now thats a good one.

 

How's this?

 

 

14-4/1 Ball Falls on Club Face After Stroke and Sticks to Mud Thereon

Q. A player, making a stroke at his ball on the bank of a bunker, hit the ball straight up. The ball came down and adhered to mud on the face of the club. Was the player in breach of Rule 14-4?

 

A. No. However, the player stopped his ball and was in breach of Rule 19-2.

 

In match play and stroke play, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and must drop the ball as near as possible to the spot where the ball adhered to the club (Rule 19-2).

 

Kevin

 

Well I wasn't in the bunker. It was the rough by the bunker. Also, the ball didn't stop but kept on going.

[xan_user]

Thanks once again kev.

 

Help me out here... My ball was in the tall rough, downhill lie and the ground was quite soft. I hit the ball and a big chunk of sod was on top of my club face during my follow-through the whole time. The ball then came in contact with the sod resting on my club. I'm 100% sure it didn't make contact with any part of my club. Is this a double hit?

 

Now thats a good one.

 

How's this?

 

 

14-4/1 Ball Falls on Club Face After Stroke and Sticks to Mud Thereon

Q. A player, making a stroke at his ball on the bank of a bunker, hit the ball straight up. The ball came down and adhered to mud on the face of the club. Was the player in breach of Rule 14-4?

 

A. No. However, the player stopped his ball and was in breach of Rule 19-2.

 

In match play and stroke play, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and must drop the ball as near as possible to the spot where the ball adhered to the club (Rule 19-2).

 

Kevin

 

That would be so cool to see in a major.

 

But rule 19-2 works if the ball is stopped. in cb-golfer's case the ball wouldn't be stoped, it would be deflected by turf temporarily lying between the club and the ball, not the ball sticking to the mud adhered to the club' s face..

 

cb_golfer;

Did this really happen to you? Or are you playing hypothetical Golf like me?

 

edit: oops looks like it was real golf.

[cb_golfer]

True story. Happened this past winter.

[cb_golfer]

The other person in my group told me it was a double hit because the grass was in contact with my club. I wanted to argue but I didn't have anything solid to say. I'm still not sure about this and hopefully someone can chime in with a rule or if anything like this has happened in the Tour.

[KevCarter]

Thanks once again kev.

 

Help me out here... My ball was in the tall rough, downhill lie and the ground was quite soft. I hit the ball and a big chunk of sod was on top of my club face during my follow-through the whole time. The ball then came in contact with the sod resting on my club. I'm 100% sure it didn't make contact with any part of my club. Is this a double hit?

 

Now thats a good one.

 

How's this?

 

 

14-4/1 Ball Falls on Club Face After Stroke and Sticks to Mud Thereon

Q. A player, making a stroke at his ball on the bank of a bunker, hit the ball straight up. The ball came down and adhered to mud on the face of the club. Was the player in breach of Rule 14-4?

 

A. No. However, the player stopped his ball and was in breach of Rule 19-2.

 

In match play and stroke play, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and must drop the ball as near as possible to the spot where the ball adhered to the club (Rule 19-2).

 

Kevin

 

That would be so cool to see in a major.

 

But rule 19-2 works if the ball is stopped. in cb-golfer's case the ball wouldn't be stoped, it would be deflected by turf temporarily lying between the club and the ball, not the ball sticking to the mud adhered to the club' s face..

 

cb_golfer;

Did this really happen to you? Or are you playing hypothetical Golf like me?

 

edit: oops looks like it was real golf.

 

Rule 19.2 covers both:

 

19-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment

 

If a player's ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by himself

 

Using the principles behind two decisions cited in this thread:

 

14-4/1 and 14-4/3

 

A good case could be made for either double hit or ball in motion stopped or deflected. I don't have the difinitive answer. Very good qestion that you may consider sending to the USGA.

 

Kevin

[cb_golfer]

Thanks Kevin, I've emailed [email protected] and called it "ball struck then ball made contact with turf attached to club face during follow-through". I'll post their ruling once I get a response.

[KevCarter]

Thanks Kevin, I've emailed [email protected] and called it "ball struck then ball made contact with turf attached to club face during follow-through". I'll post their ruling once I get a response.

 

I will look forward to hearing the results. Thanks for taking the time sending the question in.

 

Cheers,

Kevin

[jjj912]

Silly hypothetical situation..

So whats the ruling if you whiff and during the completion of the missed swing drop the club and it hits the ball? (ie drop club before the swing is completed motion)

 

I swung at the ball, and the club hit the ball only once. How many strokes?

 

xan_user,

 

Sorry, I can't find the relevant decision. Pure guess on my part:

 

1 stroke for the whiff.

1 stroke penalty for accidently moving a ball in play.

The ball must be replaced.

 

It sounds as though this may have been part of a test, I look forward to hearing the correct answer.

 

Kevin

 

Decision 18-2a/22 looks to be like the relevant decision here. It's not the exact situation that has been postulated, but I think the idea behind it is the same. Kevin line of thinking is identical to that in the decision.

 

18-2a/22 Ball Moved Accidentally by Backward Movement of Club After Stroke Misses; Ball Comes to Rest Out of Bounds

 

Q. A player misses a shot completely and, in swinging his club back, he accidentally knocks his ball backwards. Was the backward swing a stroke? If the ball comes to rest out of bounds, how does the player proceed?

 

A. The backward swing was not a stroke. A stroke is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball — see Definition of “Stroke.”

 

In addition to counting the missed stroke, the player incurs a penalty stroke for moving his ball with the backward swing (Rule 18-2a), and the ball must be replaced. The fact that the ball lay out of bounds is irrelevant.