Need a ruling on relief and bunkers

[stevestrike]

Pic included

So at one of the local public courses I play at, the bunkers are not well maintained (Shocker, right?). Anyway, my ball lands on some sand, but it isn't in what I would call the "margin" of the bunker as defined by the wall or lip of the bunker. It is just sitting in some spilled sand.

I am taking relief from the cart pat, but my playing partners insist that I am in the bunker, and have to stay in it for my relief. I say I wasn't "in" the bunker, just some sand, and my relief is outside the bunker. What say you?

I've drawn yellow lines to indicate where the "lip" would go around, as well as the sloping of the bunker as it doesn't show up well in the photo. The white ball represents my ball.
From the perspective of the picture, the direction you would be hitting would be to the left side of the photo, where the arrows are pointed.

[Southpaw Hack]

Quick question ? Are you righty or lefty ? If you hit from the right, why would you take relief from the cart path ? I cant tell from that picture if the cart path would come into play. From my understanding (i could be wrong), I do not see a reason for relief IF you hit right handed. From my perspective it looks to me that the ball would indeed be in the bunker.

I am not sure of the ruling on relief (if any) for left handed players that would have their stance on the cart path. It is my understanding that you would get relief.

[KevCarter]

Not discussing whether you are left or right handed, and which direction you are headed, I believe that ball is NOT in the bunker.

[quote][b]Bunker[/b]

A "bunker" is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

[b]Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker.[/b] A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker. The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards.

A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker.[/quote]

In my opinion that ball is on top of sand which has spilled out clearly on the grass covered area outside of the hazard.

Kevin

[stevestrike]

I am right handed, and I probably should have set the scenario up better. I'll edit my original post with:
From the perspective of the picture, the direction you would be hitting would be to the left side of the photo, where the arrows are pointed.

Is there a rule that specifies where the bunker begins/ends, or is it just up to interpretation?

[KevCarter]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='2021587' date='Oct 22 2009, 07:54 PM']I am right handed, and I probably should have set the scenario up better. I'll edit my original post with:
From the perspective of the picture, the direction you would be hitting would be to the left side of the photo, where the arrows are pointed.

Is there a rule that specifies where the bunker begins/ends, or is it just up to interpretation?[/quote]

Steve, I really feel it's covered in the definition that was posted. Please see the bolded line.

Kevin

[OpusX20]

[quote name='stevestrike' post='2021587' date='Oct 22 2009, 07:54 PM']I am right handed, and I probably should have set the scenario up better. I'll edit my original post with:
From the perspective of the picture, the direction you would be hitting would be to the left side of the photo, where the arrows are pointed.

Is there a rule that specifies where the bunker begins/ends, or is it just up to interpretation?[/quote]

The definition of a margin can be somewhat up for interpretation. But, the key to making the corect interpretation lies in the definition Kevin posted above. The first part of the definition says, [i][u]"A "bunker" is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like."[/u] [/i]In my opinion, the area where your ball lies does not comply with this definition, so it is not in the bunker. In a competition I would certainly ask for a rules official if they were available or play a second ball and get a ruling after the fact.

And even if you gave in to your playing partner and agree that the ball is in the bunker, you would still be entitled to free relief (potentially) under Rule 24-2b(ii): [i][u]In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either: (a) Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker; or (b) Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker [/u][/i][i][u]the ball may be dropped.[/u] ([/i]I say "potentially" because it is hard to tell where the nearest point of relief would be from the photo.) This relief would still put you in the bunker, but likely in a much better situation.

[Southpaw Hack]

Steve, with the updated info and Kevin's input, I would have to agree with your original assessment. If i was in that situation I would sought relief due to cart path as well.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='OpusX20' post='2021622' date='Oct 22 2009, 08:20 PM'][quote name='stevestrike' post='2021587' date='Oct 22 2009, 07:54 PM']I am right handed, and I probably should have set the scenario up better. I'll edit my original post with:
From the perspective of the picture, the direction you would be hitting would be to the left side of the photo, where the arrows are pointed.

Is there a rule that specifies where the bunker begins/ends, or is it just up to interpretation?[/quote]

The definition of a margin can be somewhat up for interpretation. But, the key to making the corect interpretation lies in the definition Kevin posted above. The first part of the definition says, [i][u]"A "bunker" is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like."[/u] [/i]In my opinion, the area where your ball lies does not comply with this definition, so it is not in the bunker. In a competition I would certainly ask for a rules official if they were available or play a second ball and get a ruling after the fact.

And even if you gave in to your playing partner and agree that the ball is in the bunker, you would still be entitled to free relief (potentially) under Rule 24-2b(ii): [i][u]In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either: (a) Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker; or (b) Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker [/u][/i][i][u]the ball may be dropped.[/u] ([/i]I say "potentially" because it is hard to tell where the nearest point of relief would be from the photo.) This relief would still put you in the bunker, but likely in a much better situation.
[/quote]

Man [b]OPUS[/b], you are REALLY good at this!

I enjoy your thorough analysis, and you really excel at writing in a way folks understand but at the same time maintaining the integrity of the rule. Very difficult to do in my opinion. I'm a little jealous...

VERY NICE!

Kevin

[OpusX20]

[quote name='kevcarter ' post='2021641' date='Oct 22 2009, 08:31 PM'][quote name='OpusX20' post='2021622' date='Oct 22 2009, 08:20 PM'][quote name='stevestrike' post='2021587' date='Oct 22 2009, 07:54 PM']I am right handed, and I probably should have set the scenario up better. I'll edit my original post with:
From the perspective of the picture, the direction you would be hitting would be to the left side of the photo, where the arrows are pointed.

Is there a rule that specifies where the bunker begins/ends, or is it just up to interpretation?[/quote]

The definition of a margin can be somewhat up for interpretation. But, the key to making the corect interpretation lies in the definition Kevin posted above. The first part of the definition says, [i][u]"A "bunker" is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like."[/u] [/i]In my opinion, the area where your ball lies does not comply with this definition, so it is not in the bunker. In a competition I would certainly ask for a rules official if they were available or play a second ball and get a ruling after the fact.

And even if you gave in to your playing partner and agree that the ball is in the bunker, you would still be entitled to free relief (potentially) under Rule 24-2b(ii): [i][u]In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either: (a) Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker; or (b) Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker [/u][/i][i][u]the ball may be dropped.[/u] ([/i]I say "potentially" because it is hard to tell where the nearest point of relief would be from the photo.) This relief would still put you in the bunker, but likely in a much better situation.
[/quote]

Man [b]OPUS[/b], you are REALLY good at this!

I enjoy your thorough analysis, and you really excel at writing in a way folks understand but at the same time maintaining the integrity of the rule. Very difficult to do in my opinion. I'm a little jealous...

VERY NICE!

Kevin
[/quote]

Thank you for the very kind words Kevin. Like you, I find the Rules of Golf pretty interesting.

[stevestrike]

Always and education here, thanks guys. For the record, I took relief and dropped in the bunker. Not because I thought it was the right ruling, but to avoid the ire of my playing partners. It was an easy bunker shot, and wasn't worth getting into a argument about it for this particular round.

Interesting thought: if you were to get relief on the "stacked face" of a bunker due to a cart path or sprinkler head for example, you could get quite the good break in the drop you take away from the bunker, no?

[KevCarter]

That's a tough decision Steve, and sometimes the very proper one in that situation...

That's the problem, in a tournament situation, pacifying your fellow competitors, or doing what you know is right.

[b]24-2. Immovable Obstruction[/b]

[b]b. Relief[/b]

Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction as follows:

(i)Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. [b]The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard [/b]or on a putting green. When the ball is dropped within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, the ball must first strike a part of the course at a spot that avoids interference by the immovable obstruction and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

[b]Penalty for Breach of Rule:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.[/b]

By dropping in the hazard, you cost yourself another 2 shots!

Kevin

[stevestrike]

[quote name='kevcarter ' post='2021770' date='Oct 22 2009, 09:52 PM']By dropping in the hazard, you cost yourself another 2 shots![/quote]
Great point for consideration in future tournaments. When I took the drop, I was going along with my group's decision that it was in the hazard, so I stayed in the hazard. But yes, if it was truly out of the hazard, and I dropped into it, I can see your point. Good thing these guys would never pick up on the subtly of that ruling!

[Sawgrass]

Figuring out exactly how to comply with the rules is often complicated, even sitting at home with the rule book at hand. While you're on the course, with fellow competitors disagreeing with you and with the implied time restraints, it's even harder.

Playing a second ball and figuring out which ball was played correctly later is an option. But to tell the truth, I frequently simply hit without taking relief if I'm not sure just so I don't have the whole controversy in my head for next four or so holes.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Sawgrass' post='2021924' date='Oct 22 2009, 11:43 PM']Figuring out exactly how to comply with the rules is often complicated, even sitting at home with the rule book at hand. While you're on the course, with fellow competitors disagreeing with you and with the implied time restraints, it's even harder.

Playing a second ball and figuring out which ball was played correctly later is an option. But to tell the truth, I frequently simply hit without taking relief if I'm not sure just so I don't have the whole controversy in my head for next four or so holes.[/quote]

Oh Man, isn't that the truth!?!?!?

It's difficult sometimes just sitting at the computer looking it up, but on the course, under the gun. Tour players are often criticized for not knowing the rules, but if I were on tour I would NEVER touch my ball without an official. Great point Sawgrass...

Kevin

[teejaywhy]

Sometimes you are better off playing it as it lies. As long as the club was not going to hit the concrete, I wouldn't have any issues with having to stand on the path.

In fact, I once played a shot off of a cart path because the drop would have given me a potentially worse lie.

[jjj912]

I'm shocked that none of you have referenced either of these decisions:

[i][b]13/1 Sand Spilling Over Margin of Bunker [/b]
Q. If sand spills over the margin of a bunker, is the sand part of the bunker?
A. No.[/i]

[b][i]13/3 Ball on Edge of Bunker Overhanging Sand [/b]
Q. Is a ball in a bunker if it lies on the edge of the bunker overhanging, but not touching, the sand?
A. No. The margin of a bunker, unlike that of a water hazard, does not extend vertically upward.[/i]

[KevCarter]

[quote name='jjj912' post='2022900' date='Oct 23 2009, 04:05 PM']I'm shocked that none of you have referenced either of these decisions:

[i][b]13/1 Sand Spilling Over Margin of Bunker [/b]
Q. If sand spills over the margin of a bunker, is the sand part of the bunker?
A. No.[/i]

[b][i]13/3 Ball on Edge of Bunker Overhanging Sand [/b]
Q. Is a ball in a bunker if it lies on the edge of the bunker overhanging, but not touching, the sand?
A. No. The margin of a bunker, unlike that of a water hazard, does not extend vertically upward.[/i][/quote]

It was easily handled in the definition without having to go to the decisions. Sometimes simpler is better.

Kevin