Cuts, soft fades, powerfades

I think, that means I'm not to sure, that a cut is more of a slice but not quite a slice. A fade is a minor movement from left to right.

To hit a fade or cut, just open up your stance and shoulders so they aren't parallel to the target line. Also have your clubface aiming to the target. Then, swing in an out to in fashion. So in other words, assuming the target line is 12 o'clock, from the top of your swing, make the club head travel towards 11 o'clock instead or 1 o'clock for a draw.

N.B.1 *Make sure you keep the club face open

N.B.2 *I used to be able to hit the biggest hooks and most controlled draws until I started practising fades and slices. They are easier to pick up than a draw. MAKE SURE YOU PRACTICE THE DRAWS MORE THAN THE FADES.

Good luck! Hope I didn't confuse you too much.

Josh

I think, that means I'm not to sure, that a cut is more of a slice but not quite a slice. A fade is a minor movement from left to right.

 

To hit a fade or cut, just open up your stance and shoulders so they aren't parallel to the target line. Also have your clubface aiming to the target. Then, swing in an out to in fashion. So in other words, assuming the target line is 12 o'clock, from the top of your swing, make the club head travel towards 11 o'clock instead or 1 o'clock for a draw.

 

N.B.1 *Make sure you keep the club face open

 

N.B.2 *I used to be able to hit the biggest hooks and most controlled draws until I started practising fades and slices. They are easier to pick up than a draw. MAKE SURE YOU PRACTICE THE DRAWS MORE THAN THE FADES.

 

Good luck! Hope I didn't confuse you too much.

Josh

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Thx Josh!

Both a cut and a fade will start left of the target line (right hander) ?

Keep it coming!

Soeren

I like Tanj's description. I would describe a fade as a shot from a relatively square stance that starts slightly inside your target line and drifts slightly to the right.

A cut is a more pronounced left to right shot, and sounds better than a slice. The cut might be used to work your ball around obstacles that you wouldn't opt to fly over. Open your clubface to sit square to your target, open your stance to allow the initial path to clear the obstacle, swing down your toe line.

I'm not an instructor but I did sleep at a holiday inn :fool: .

G

For me, it's just a change of set-up and committing to the shot.

Pick out the line you want the ball to start on, and pick out where you want the ball to finish. The key is to commit to your target line, and swing down it with the clubface pointed at the target. A fade is caused by the clubface being open relative to your swing plane. Try moving the ball further forward in your stance, that encourages a more out to in move across the ball.

When your swinging, feel like you'll be swing a little more upright and your chest with stay over the ball more. To get this feeling. Stand over a ball without a club in your hands and with a ball in your right hand (if you're right handed). Pick the ball up as if your about to drive the ball straight into the ground. This upright position is where you want to feel yourself to get a solid fade going out there.

Guys,

Someone please educate me - what is the difference between a cut shot and a fade?? Love to have at least one of these shots in my armour  :fool: !!!

 

BTW I can't hit either of the left-to-rights.

No problems for me hitting draws with irons and woods though  :ok:

thanks for any qualified input..

Seren

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All these are great replies so long as the club face is square and stays square or open just not shut then you can cut it.. Feel like you are coming over the top of the ball keeping your right shoulder high ... I hate to hit low left ... ugly. You can play a high cut as a miss but can't play that low left sh**....

I find that grip pressure is enough for me to move the ball around. I grip it a smidge tighter than normal and the ball will cut a bit. More pressure, more movement...until the 'ol death grip yields a powerfade.

Give it a try, its a hell of a lot easier than adjusting your stance, shoulders, or something else.

Grip pressure, and your normal swing will do. :fool:

"Loaded" question".......

First of all you need to know just WHAT a "power fade" is by definition......a "power fade" is a fade hit from the inside exactly like a properly hit straight ball or draw.......the clubhead is actually traveling on the EXACT same path relative to the body as with a draw, etc. but the clubhead is simply open relative to the body lines at impact.....this is set up during the "set up" by simply setting the clubhead slightly open to your body alignment/intended aimpoint while maintaining your normal grip......

To hit a "power fade" depends TOTALLY on the type of golf swing......

A good ballstriker who has the proper impact dynamics can hit a "power" fade quite easily........they simply align themselves in the direction they wish the ball to START and aim the clubface BETWEEN their bodies alignment and the position they wish to ball to finish......they then make the exact same golf swing as normal......its VERY important that you do TWO things IF your currrently a good ballstriker and wish to "work" the golf shot.....

- ALWAYS aim the clubface at a point in BETWEEN where your body is aligned and the point you wish the ball to finish......IF you aim the clubface at the point where you wish the ball to finish AND make a good swing the ball will cut/draw to that point and then run out AWAY from that point......IF you set up correctly the ball will land BETWEEN your body alignment and the target and work towards the target......

- ALWAYS make sure you focus 100% on STARTING the ball along your body lines......all good player have a tendency to swing towards their intended target and IF your trying to play fade they will inevitably "push" the ball towards their final target resulting in a push fade which finishes right of target......opposite for a draw......SO, its VERY important that the player ALWAYS make his/her last thoughts on the "aimpoint" and NOT the final target........

Now, for the vast majority of golfers a power fade is just about impossible for them to hit as they will belong to one of two swing "clubs".......either they suck the club too far behind them in the backswing and then reroute the club "over the top" or over their backswing plane and end up hitting the ball from outside their aimpoint while also casting the clubhead OR in some decent players case, they will NOT reroute the club but simply swing too much from the inside on the downswing and "freeze" the trunk on the downswing in an attempt to release the clubhead with their arms and hands as that IS the ONLY way that the clubface can be released in order to sqaure the clubface at impact....(UNLESS you have a SEVERLY strong 4 knuckle grip)......most have an incorrect "image" of a golf swing in that they THINK the clubhead is supposed to travel from "inside-out" which is 100% TOTALLY incorrect....as a result the will ALWAYS be a pusher/hooker/snap hooker for the entirety of their golfing lives.......

In actual fact the clubhead travels on an arc that is on an inclined/tilted plane and as a result the clubhead travels up and around in the backswing and down and around in the downswing until impact where it travels up and around again into the finish......RESULT.....the clubhead is traveling from the inside just prior to impact and then down the target line for a "nano-second" and then back to the inside.......

Probably the two WORST statements/images ever taught to a golfer are "keep your head still" and swing "inside-out".......simply TERRIBLE images for most golfers.......

You can suck the clubhead inside and reroute it over and hit a pull fade, which if struck from a proper path (ie. NOT over the proper path but on it) can produce as powerful a fade as can be hit.....Snead, Lietzke, Craig Parry, D.A. Wiebring all hit "power fades" from OVER their backswing paths but still from INSIDE the target line.......in fact, this is probably the MOST reliable way to hit a "power/knuckle fade" consistently......the only problem with this type of action is its VERY hard to hit a repeating draw when needed.........all of the mentioned players hit a "pull draw" when trying to draw the ball......meaning they aim well right of the target......starte the ball left of where their bodies were aligned but still right of target and then draw the ball back towards the target........VERY inconsistent way to hit a draw (UNLESS your Kenny Perry...:fool:).......but can be done....

Thx for all the input, especially slicefixers last opened my mind a bit :fool: :ok:

Have to go to work on the range

Soeren

Thx for all the input, especially slicefixers last opened my mind a bit  :fool:  :ok:

Have to go to work on the range

Soeren

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Your MOST welcome! Now get to work! :D

(Good Luck)

"Loaded" question".......

 

First of all you need to know just WHAT a "power fade" is by definition......a "power fade" is a fade hit from the inside exactly like a properly hit straight ball or draw.......the clubhead is actually traveling on the EXACT same path relative to the body as with a draw, etc. but the clubhead is simply open relative to the body lines at impact.....this is set up during the "set up" by simply setting the clubhead slightly open to your body alignment/intended aimpoint while maintaining your normal grip......

 

To  hit a "power fade" depends TOTALLY on the type of golf swing......

 

A good ballstriker who has the proper impact dynamics can hit a "power" fade quite easily........they simply align themselves in the direction they wish the ball to START and aim the clubface BETWEEN their bodies alignment and the position they wish to ball to finish......they then make the exact same golf swing as normal......its VERY important that you do TWO things IF your currrently a good ballstriker and wish to "work" the golf shot.....

 

- ALWAYS aim the clubface at a point in BETWEEN where your body is aligned and the point you wish the ball to finish......IF you aim the clubface at the point where you wish the ball to finish AND make a good swing the ball will cut/draw to that point and then run out AWAY from that point......IF you set up correctly the ball will land BETWEEN your body alignment and the target and work towards the target......

 

- ALWAYS make sure you focus 100% on STARTING the ball along your body lines......all good player have a tendency to swing towards their intended target and IF your trying to play fade they will inevitably "push" the ball towards their final target resulting in a push fade which finishes right of target......opposite for a draw......SO, its VERY important that the player ALWAYS make his/her last thoughts on the "aimpoint" and NOT the final target........

 

Now, for the vast majority of golfers a power fade is just about impossible for them to hit as they will belong to one of two swing "clubs".......either they suck the club too far behind them in the backswing and then reroute the club "over the top" or over their backswing plane and end up hitting the ball from outside their aimpoint while also casting the clubhead OR in some decent  players case, they will NOT reroute the club but simply swing too much from the inside on the downswing and "freeze" the trunk on the downswing in an attempt to release the clubhead with their arms and hands as that IS the ONLY way that the clubface can be released in order to sqaure the clubface at impact....(UNLESS you have a SEVERLY strong 4 knuckle grip)......most have an incorrect "image" of a golf swing in that they THINK the clubhead is supposed to travel from "inside-out" which is 100% TOTALLY incorrect....as a result the will ALWAYS be a pusher/hooker/snap hooker for the entirety of their golfing lives.......

 

In actual fact the clubhead travels on an arc that is on an inclined/tilted plane and as a result the clubhead travels up and around in the backswing and down and around in the downswing until impact where it travels up and around again into the finish......RESULT.....the clubhead is traveling from the inside just prior to impact and then down the target line for a "nano-second" and then back to the inside.......

 

Probably the two WORST statements/images ever taught to a golfer are "keep your head still" and swing "inside-out".......simply TERRIBLE images for most golfers.......

 

You can suck the clubhead inside and reroute it over and hit a pull fade, which if struck from a proper path (ie. NOT over the proper path but on it) can produce as powerful a fade as can be hit.....Snead, Lietzke, Craig Parry, D.A. Wiebring all hit "power fades" from OVER their backswing paths but still from INSIDE the target line.......in fact, this is probably the MOST reliable way to hit a "power/knuckle fade" consistently......the only problem with this type of action is its VERY hard to hit a repeating draw when needed.........all of the mentioned  players hit a "pull draw" when trying to draw the ball......meaning they aim well right of the target......starte the ball left of where their bodies were aligned but still right of target and then draw the ball back towards the target........VERY inconsistent way to hit a draw (UNLESS your Kenny Perry...).......but can be done....

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I lke this definition a lot: and agree.. I work hard on keeping the club head out side my hand at the range and not sucking the club inside on my take away. After playing some pretty good golf without any instruction a local pro bought the driving range I hit balls at and he offered some free instruction well all I got was confused with smothered hooks..or pushed shots... Then I had to go to another guy that did charge me and put me on video tape well

all was fixed after 6 months of trying not to suck the club head inside and square with my knees (bad back too)...so you get what you pay for...and good luck.

I was reading my Jerry Heard book "Secrets of the Big Money Pros" looking for advice on how to handle sidehills and downhills etc.

He's got a chart of how to setup for different shots and I noticed he had a column for grip...neutral, strong, weak. And then he had a column for clubface alignment...open, square, closed. It really threw me for a loop. I used to try to work shots with the position of the left hand on the club, strong, weak or neutral. Then I remembered a Judy Rankin article on how the right hand is the determining factor for the clubface alignment at impact.

So, I've been having success with the left hand neutral on the grip and the right hand taking place according to the shape desired.

I certainly like the idea of using the same swing for the shaped shots, because it is bound to help with consistency. I should think that the same method could be used for a "power draw," though I don't think I've heard the term used before.

My question concerns wrist hinge. Presumably this swing consistency includes a consistent wrist hinge. How does one decide how much wrist hinge? What observation points

along a swing can help define it? I am envious of some playing partners who hit high accurate draws with high clubhead speeds with their irons, but since they do it entirely with arms and wrists it is so ugly I would never practice it. As you point out, they have frozen their trunk. Apparently they are comfortable keeping the big muscle groups out of it and they get plenty of distance with the quick wrist action giving the clubhead speed.

Right now I am stuck with a fade I can't get rid of. I noticed that I can get draws EITHER with swing path alteration OR with quicker wrist action. It also seems I can get rid of the fade sometimes if I close both stance and clubface. My guess is that the main problem is the one you point out that I am rerouting the clubhead on the downswing over the aimpath, coming from outside and putting a fade spin on the ball, but I am also concerned that maybe I am keeping my wrists too stiff through impact. I am using a lot of consciious wrist-hinge at present in order to try to exaggerate the wrist rotation to get the clubface rotated through at impact. Can you recommend certain checkpoints to distinguish swing errors arising through swing path versus wrist action?

"Loaded" question".......

 

First of all you need to know just WHAT a "power fade" is by definition......a "power fade" is a fade hit from the inside exactly like a properly hit straight ball or draw.......the clubhead is actually traveling on the EXACT same path relative to the body as with a draw, etc. but the clubhead is simply open relative to the body lines at impact.....this is set up during the "set up" by simply setting the clubhead slightly open to your body alignment/intended aimpoint while maintaining your normal grip......

 

To  hit a "power fade" depends TOTALLY on the type of golf swing......

 

A good ballstriker who has the proper impact dynamics can hit a "power" fade quite easily........they simply align themselves in the direction they wish the ball to START and aim the clubface BETWEEN their bodies alignment and the position they wish to ball to finish......they then make the exact same golf swing as normal......its VERY important that you do TWO things IF your currrently a good ballstriker and wish to "work" the golf shot.....

 

- ALWAYS aim the clubface at a point in BETWEEN where your body is aligned and the point you wish the ball to finish......IF you aim the clubface at the point where you wish the ball to finish AND make a good swing the ball will cut/draw to that point and then run out AWAY from that point......IF you set up correctly the ball will land BETWEEN your body alignment and the target and work towards the target......

 

- ALWAYS make sure you focus 100% on STARTING the ball along your body lines......all good player have a tendency to swing towards their intended target and IF your trying to play fade they will inevitably "push" the ball towards their final target resulting in a push fade which finishes right of target......opposite for a draw......SO, its VERY important that the player ALWAYS make his/her last thoughts on the "aimpoint" and NOT the final target........

 

Now, for the vast majority of golfers a power fade is just about impossible for them to hit as they will belong to one of two swing "clubs".......either they suck the club too far behind them in the backswing and then reroute the club "over the top" or over their backswing plane and end up hitting the ball from outside their aimpoint while also casting the clubhead OR in some decent  players case, they will NOT reroute the club but simply swing too much from the inside on the downswing and "freeze" the trunk on the downswing in an attempt to release the clubhead with their arms and hands as that IS the ONLY way that the clubface can be released in order to sqaure the clubface at impact....(UNLESS you have a SEVERLY strong 4 knuckle grip)......most have an incorrect "image" of a golf swing in that they THINK the clubhead is supposed to travel from "inside-out" which is 100% TOTALLY incorrect....as a result the will ALWAYS be a pusher/hooker/snap hooker for the entirety of their golfing lives.......

 

In actual fact the clubhead travels on an arc that is on an inclined/tilted plane and as a result the clubhead travels up and around in the backswing and down and around in the downswing until impact where it travels up and around again into the finish......RESULT.....the clubhead is traveling from the inside just prior to impact and then down the target line for a "nano-second" and then back to the inside.......

 

Probably the two WORST statements/images ever taught to a golfer are "keep your head still" and swing "inside-out".......simply TERRIBLE images for most golfers.......

 

You can suck the clubhead inside and reroute it over and hit a pull fade, which if struck from a proper path (ie. NOT over the proper path but on it) can produce as powerful a fade as can be hit.....Snead, Lietzke, Craig Parry, D.A. Wiebring all hit "power fades" from OVER their backswing paths but still from INSIDE the target line.......in fact, this is probably the MOST reliable way to hit a "power/knuckle fade" consistently......the only problem with this type of action is its VERY hard to hit a repeating draw when needed.........all of the mentioned  players hit a "pull draw" when trying to draw the ball......meaning they aim well right of the target......starte the ball left of where their bodies were aligned but still right of target and then draw the ball back towards the target........VERY inconsistent way to hit a draw (UNLESS your Kenny Perry...).......but can be done....

44513[/snapback]

I have VERY lil' doubt that your simply swinging the clubhead or the arms or BOTH to far to the inside on the backswing and then re-routing the clubhad over the backswing path and also casting/throwing the clubhead at some point in the downswing. IF you email me some video I would be glad to give you some suggestions once I actually SEE the swing for myself....

As for wrist hinge....

The action of the wrists is totally determined by 2 things.....

1. Your grip......my guess is its not correct......probably too weak and too much in your palms.....

2. The aforementioned "sucking" of the club inside on the backswing...

IF a player grips the club properly AND takes everything away together for the first 12" - 18" (assuming that your posture/alignment are fundamentally sound) the player can then rotate the left forearm while continuing to turn/wind their trunk/shoulders and the wrists will naturally "set" themselves........the longer the left thumb (IF its place properly in the lifeline "slot" of the right hand) the more wrist hinge/set the player will achieve at the top of the backswing and IF they fire the lower body/lower trunk properly to initiate the downswing they will create "lag".....

Thats what you see in so many powerful players.....you will see the shaft "load" during the transition......properly applied "lag" produces a tremendous amount of power....TREMENDOUS.....and IF the technique through impact is sound the clubhead will square up at the last possible second WITHOUT ANY manipulation of the clubhead with the hands arms.........Sergio/Hogan/Appleby are some examples, but, there are many others......

Email me some video images taken from looking DIRECTLY down the target line and looking DEAD ON 90deg to the target line face on.....I'd also need an image from DEAD ON 90deg from behind your rear end......with those 3 images it won't take long to give you some ideas on how to improve your golfswing a TON!

Cheers!

Thank you, mr fixer! I am sure you are right about the swing path, because I've only

been at this business for a year and a half and surely still have common beginner's mistakes in my swing. Most recently I have been concentrating on a straight-back take-away because the pulling to the inside on the backswing was pointed out to me. So I am conscious of it, but I'm not sure I've got it fixed.

I don't think I really know what you mean by 'casting.' I WAS advised once that one can get more clubhead speed by throwing the clubhead with the right hand as opposed to pulling the club through with the left, as a lot of ex-baseball players like myself have a tendency to do.

I try to stand very upright at address, with as neutral a grip as possible. The most recent comment on my grip by an experienced golfer was that he thought it was very slightly strong, but he was only talking about a 1/16th of a rotation or less. As for the right thumb in the left hand groove, I think I've got that.

The coil around the spine, the lag and the power generation are all familar concepts to me.

That's why the shoulder turn is so important. I stretch a lot every day and (for my age) I've got a lot of flexibility. I also concentrate on the first downward motion after the backswing being with the trunk rather than with the arms. I think that is what you are talking about.

Creating the rotational tension in the shoulders with the trunk turn and getting the hips out of the way.

I still think there is some choice as to how much one hinges the wrists during the backswing and where they should be at the top. I have the impression of having heard some people talking about the angle of the clubface at the top of the backswing, and also about mistaken CUPPING of the wrist, by which I mean the opposite of 'hinge." The more 'hinge' , the more vertical the clubface. The more 'cupping', the more horizontal the clubface.

I don't have any video available. I have a picture, which I will include just for your amusement. The problem is, it is from perhaps the best swing I ever made, last August in Toronto. I hit a high draw down the right side of the fairway, 304 yds. It's a pure coincidence that it is the only picture I have of my swing. In those days I was regularly

over 280 yds, often with high draws. I've lost it somehow (well, partly because of the ambient temperature, but certainly because of swing mechanics as well). What I was THINKING at the time had nothing to do with wrists, but instead with keep the backswing relatively short (you see about a 3/4 here) to maintain control, and, MOST IMPORTANT, keeping it low. In this picture you see the the shaft on-plane with my shoulders, exactly what I was trying to do. When I did it right, I felt like I had a little bit of an in-out swing. In those days, I was also closing the clubface at address a little more than I do now, and I would close it yet more to get the draw. Nowadays, if I closed my club face for a draw swing, I would hit the ball very low and left.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated!

I have VERY lil' doubt that your simply swinging the clubhead or the arms or BOTH to far to the inside on the backswing and then re-routing the clubhad over the backswing path and also casting/throwing the clubhead at some point in the downswing.  IF you email me some video I would be glad to give you some suggestions once I actually SEE the swing for myself....

 

As for wrist hinge....

 

The action of the wrists is totally determined by 2 things.....

 

1. Your grip......my guess is its not correct......probably too weak and too much in your palms.....

2. The aforementioned "sucking" of the club inside on the backswing...

 

IF a player grips the club properly AND takes everything away together for the first 12" - 18" (assuming that your posture/alignment are fundamentally sound) the player can then rotate the left forearm while continuing to turn/wind their trunk/shoulders and the wrists will naturally "set" themselves........the longer the left thumb (IF its place properly in the lifeline "slot" of the right hand) the more wrist hinge/set the player will achieve at the top of the backswing and IF they fire the lower body/lower trunk properly to initiate the downswing they will create "lag".....

 

Thats what you see in so many powerful players.....you will see the shaft "load" during the transition......properly applied "lag" produces a tremendous amount of power....TREMENDOUS.....and IF the technique through impact is sound the clubhead will square up at the last possible second WITHOUT    ANY    manipulation of the clubhead with the hands arms.........Sergio/Hogan/Appleby are some examples, but, there are many others......

 

Email me some video images taken from looking DIRECTLY down the target line and looking DEAD ON 90deg to the target line face on.....I'd also need an image from DEAD ON 90deg from behind your rear end......with those 3 images it won't take long to give you some ideas on how to improve your golfswing a TON!

 

Cheers!

48645[/snapback]

Hey, thats pretty good position.......the shaft/face/left arm are dead on plane....However, the left wrist appears to be flat or even worse, "bowed" downward, which is a BIG no-no.....despite what you might have heard otherwise.....

IF you start off with a proper grip (2 knuckles or stronger in the L hand) and then proceed to flatten the left wrist at the top the shaft will be "layed off" and the clubface will have a tendency to shut.....however, it appears from your excellent clubface position that your most probably starting with too weak a left hand and then simply turning to the top.....this would explain why your wrists aren't setting properly and why the clubface is in such a great position inspite of the flat left wrist......your left hand has very little range of motion from a weak grip position.....meaning that if your L forearm and the back of your left hand are in line or flat at address you can only cokk your left wrist maybe 20deg or so......if the left hand grip is correct you will see and feel a VERY descernible "cup" between the forearm and and the back of the left hand....I tell my students to see/feel the "crinkles" in the left wrist .....(creases/wrinkles)......the forearm will be pointing towards your right foot and the angle of the back of your left hand will be pointed towards your right shoulder.....then the range of motion in your left wrist is 90deg or so.....THEN you can fully hinge your wrists.......(in reality though, your left wrist "cocks" upwards and your right wrist "hinges" backwards in the golfswing......they DO NOT do the same thing...).

I don't have much time right now, but, I can tell you this.......the MODERN golfswing is VERY, VERY much like hitting a baseball....only the ball is on an inclined plane instead of more horizontal.......DO NOT try and hit the ball with your right hand......absolutely the WORST piece of advice that can be given to a golfer.....right along with "do not move your head"......they are 1, 2 in the absolute WORST advice ever given.......

I'll comment on your post more thoroughly later tonight.....

Yes, that's why I am talking about the wrist. The comment that I received a couple of weeks later in late August was that my left wrist should be hinged backward more to improve clubface rotation through impact. (It was sometime in early September that I lost my swing, or, at least, stopped getting any decent results.) And indeed, as I mentioned I found that wrist action can be used to shape shots, which means (maybe) that one can use the same swing for fades and draws, which would be a big help for consistency. One accomplished golfer told me that he hits draws simply by 'loosening up' his wrists.

So if I had a picture of my present swing, you would see a big left wrist hinge at the top. But my swing is a mess right now. The guy who looked at it most recently said that the clubface was good at the top - it looked like in this picture. His big complaint was my takeaway. I am pretty sure that your first reaction was correct - my clubhead is coming over the top of the correct swing plane during the downswing, resulting in an in-out. I just don't seem to be able to get a feel for it.

But I need to read the rest of what you wrote more carefully and get back with questions. Thanks!

Hey, thats pretty good position.......the shaft/face/left arm are dead on plane....However, the left wrist appears to be flat or even worse, "bowed" downward, which is a BIG no-no.....despite what you might have heard otherwise.....

 

IF you start off with a proper grip (2 knuckles or stronger in the L hand) and then proceed to flatten the left wrist at the top the shaft will be "layed off" and the clubface will have a tendency to shut.....however, it appears from your excellent clubface position that your most probably starting with too weak a left hand and then simply turning to the top.....this would explain why your wrists aren't setting properly and why the clubface is in such a great position inspite of the flat left wrist......your left hand has very little range of motion from a weak grip position.....meaning that if your L forearm and the back of your left hand are in line or flat at address you can only cokk your left wrist  maybe 20deg or so......if the left hand grip is correct you will see and feel a VERY descernible "cup" between the forearm and and the back of the left hand....I tell my students to see/feel the "crinkles" in the left wrist .....(creases/wrinkles)......the forearm will be pointing towards your right foot and the angle of the back of your left hand will be pointed towards your right shoulder.....then the range of motion in your left wrist is 90deg or so.....THEN you can fully hinge your wrists.......(in reality though,  your left wrist "cocks" upwards and your right wrist "hinges" backwards in the golfswing......they DO NOT do the same thing...).

 

I don't have much time right now, but, I can tell you this.......the MODERN golfswing is VERY, VERY much like hitting a baseball....only the ball is on an inclined plane instead of more horizontal.......DO NOT try and hit the ball with your right hand......absolutely the WORST piece of advice that can be given to a golfer.....right along with "do not move your head"......they are 1, 2 in the absolute WORST advice ever given.......

 

I'll comment on your post more thoroughly later tonight.....

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Having reread your second paragraph after a cup of coffee, I think I get it! You are saying the wrist hinge on the left hand should be present AT ADDRESS. This is REALLY ringing a bell. It actually conjures up in my mind some of those drawings in Hogan's Five Lessons. I've also seen quite a few good golfers who have a distinct hinge in their left hand at address - it looked awkward to me. I've never really tried it, or maybe I tried it at the time when I had a flat wrist at the top and it didn't feel right because of all the wrist action during the backswing. But AT PRESENT, in order to get that wrist hinge at the top of the backswing, I have a lot of wrist action during the backswing, it feels sort of 'loopy' as I go back, which results as a lack of feel for the swing plane and getting the downswing on plane turns into a matter of luck rather than control. I think what you are saying is that the wrist hinge should not change much during the backswing.

The guy who looked at my setup recently saw something he didn't like in the grip, but

he didn't say what he saw, he just pushed them together. I thought he was pushing my right hand into a weaker grip, but I think he may have been pushing BOTH hands, including trying to get the left hand more on top, inducing such a wrist hinge. Maybe my left thumb isn't as deep into the right hand groove as it should be. I'll know as soon as I can get out on the range.

Here is another clue to what my problem might be. It's not nearly as severe if I choke

up on the grip almost to the shaft. If I get closer to the ball the fade is reduced or gone.

This seems likely to cost distance because of the shorter lever arm reducing clubhead speed, but it was also pointed out to me that it makes the shaft STIFFER. That might be even worse for my fairly slow swing speed of 95 mph. Maybe it's relevant that I am using a kzg sp700 with a regular flex vista pro shaft.

There were two other things wrong with the swing in the picture that gave such great results. First, as I mentioned, I had the face very closed at address. (So if the clubface had been normal, both hands would have been rotated clockwise, very strong on the grip - but I didn't do that, I just set up with what I thought was a neutral grip with the face closed. VERY closed, by the way. My recollection is that when I wanted to hit a draw the top of the clubface was actually in front of the bottom!) Second - all my shots were pushed relative to my hip line. I was forced to aim with my feet about 10 degrees left of the target line. I don't see it so clearly in the picture, but that is my recollection of that swing 'era.'

Hey, thats pretty good position.......the shaft/face/left arm are dead on plane....However, the left wrist appears to be flat or even worse, "bowed" downward, which is a BIG no-no.....despite what you might have heard otherwise.....

 

IF you start off with a proper grip (2 knuckles or stronger in the L hand) and then proceed to flatten the left wrist at the top the shaft will be "layed off" and the clubface will have a tendency to shut.....however, it appears from your excellent clubface position that your most probably starting with too weak a left hand and then simply turning to the top.....this would explain why your wrists aren't setting properly and why the clubface is in such a great position inspite of the flat left wrist......your left hand has very little range of motion from a weak grip position.....meaning that if your L forearm and the back of your left hand are in line or flat at address you can only cokk your left wrist  maybe 20deg or so......if the left hand grip is correct you will see and feel a VERY descernible "cup" between the forearm and and the back of the left hand....I tell my students to see/feel the "crinkles" in the left wrist .....(creases/wrinkles)......the forearm will be pointing towards your right foot and the angle of the back of your left hand will be pointed towards your right shoulder.....then the range of motion in your left wrist is 90deg or so.....THEN you can fully hinge your wrists.......(in reality though,  your left wrist "cocks" upwards and your right wrist "hinges" backwards in the golfswing......they DO NOT do the same thing...).

 

I don't have much time right now, but, I can tell you this.......the MODERN golfswing is VERY, VERY much like hitting a baseball....only the ball is on an inclined plane instead of more horizontal.......DO NOT try and hit the ball with your right hand......absolutely the WORST piece of advice that can be given to a golfer.....right along with "do not move your head"......they are 1, 2 in the absolute WORST advice ever given.......

 

I'll comment on your post more thoroughly later tonight.....

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Optimist,

I think your confused about wrist hinge and cupping of the wrist. Place your left hand and forearm, palm down, flat on a table in front of you. Keeping your hand flat on the table and your forearm stationary move/slide your hand left and right, that describes wrist hinge. If you make a fist and turn your hand thumb up, moving your hand left and right describes wrist cupping. If you have a little cupping at address with your left hand you want to maintain that amount of "cup" throughout your back swing, this will help keep your clubhead square. With soft wrists at impact you should have a little bowing or "supination" of the left wrist, a la Hogans 5 fundamentals. HTH...

G

Having reread your second paragraph after a cup of coffee, I think I get it! You are saying the wrist hinge on the left hand should be present AT ADDRESS. This is REALLY ringing a bell. It actually conjures up in my mind some of those drawings in Hogan's Five Lessons. I've also seen quite a few good golfers who have a distinct hinge in their left hand at address - it looked awkward to me. I've never really tried it, or maybe I tried it at the time when I had a flat wrist at the top and it didn't feel right because of all the wrist action during the backswing. But AT PRESENT, in order to get that wrist hinge at the top of the backswing, I have a lot of wrist action during the backswing, it feels sort of 'loopy' as I go back, which results as a lack of feel for the swing plane and getting the downswing on plane turns into a matter of luck rather than control. I think what you are saying is that the wrist hinge should not change much during the backswing.

It occurred to me that I might be mixed up as to what 'weak' means for the left hand.

I know that 'weaker' for the right hand means rotated counter-clockwise to be more

on top of the grip. Which way is it for 'weak' on the left hand?

The guy who looked at my setup recently saw something he didn't like in the grip, but

he didn't say what he saw, he just pushed them together. I thought he was pushing my right hand into a weaker grip, but I think he may have been pushing BOTH hands, including trying to get the left hand more on top, inducing such a wrist hinge. Maybe my left thumb isn't as deep into the right hand groove as it should be. I'll know as soon as I can get out on the range.

Here is another clue to what my problem might be. It's not nearly as severe if I choke

up on the grip almost to the shaft. If I get closer to the ball the fade is reduced or gone.

This seems likely to cost distance because of the shorter lever arm reducing clubhead speed, but it was also pointed out to me that it makes the shaft STIFFER. That might be even worse for my fairly slow swing speed of 95 mph. Maybe it's relevant that I am using a kzg sp700 with a regular flex vista pro shaft.

There were two other things wrong with the swing in the picture that gave such great results. First, as I mentioned, I had the face very closed at address. (So if the clubface had been normal, both hands would have been rotated clockwise, very strong on the grip - but I didn't do that, I just set up with what I thought was a neutral grip with the face closed. VERY closed, by the way. My recollection is that when I wanted to hit a draw the top of the clubface was actually in front of the bottom!) Second - all my shots were pushed relative to my hip line. I was forced to aim with my feet about 10 degrees left of the target line. I don't see it so clearly in the picture, but that is my recollection of that swing 'era.'

Hey, thats pretty good position.......the shaft/face/left arm are dead on plane....However, the left wrist appears to be flat or even worse, "bowed" downward, which is a BIG no-no.....despite what you might have heard otherwise.....

 

IF you start off with a proper grip (2 knuckles or stronger in the L hand) and then proceed to flatten the left wrist at the top the shaft will be "layed off" and the clubface will have a tendency to shut.....however, it appears from your excellent clubface position that your most probably starting with too weak a left hand and then simply turning to the top.....this would explain why your wrists aren't setting properly and why the clubface is in such a great position inspite of the flat left wrist......your left hand has very little range of motion from a weak grip position.....meaning that if your L forearm and the back of your left hand are in line or flat at address you can only cokk your left wrist  maybe 20deg or so......if the left hand grip is correct you will see and feel a VERY descernible "cup" between the forearm and and the back of the left hand....I tell my students to see/feel the "crinkles" in the left wrist .....(creases/wrinkles)......the forearm will be pointing towards your right foot and the angle of the back of your left hand will be pointed towards your right shoulder.....then the range of motion in your left wrist is 90deg or so.....THEN you can fully hinge your wrists.......(in reality though,  your left wrist "cocks" upwards and your right wrist "hinges" backwards in the golfswing......they DO NOT do the same thing...).

 

I don't have much time right now, but, I can tell you this.......the MODERN golfswing is VERY, VERY much like hitting a baseball....only the ball is on an inclined plane instead of more horizontal.......DO NOT try and hit the ball with your right hand......absolutely the WORST piece of advice that can be given to a golfer.....right along with "do not move your head"......they are 1, 2 in the absolute WORST advice ever given.......

 

I'll comment on your post more thoroughly later tonight.....

48742[/snapback]

OK, now THIS is getting easier to figure out..........

You DO NOT have your hands on the club correctly......that I WILL guarantee you.....Do this..

Take a marker and draw a line from the top join of the lil' finger of the L hand diagonally across the palm until it intersects with LAST joint of the index finger.......you'll have a line running across you fingers from the beginning of the palm above the lil' finger to the crease of the last joint of the index finger........Now, laying your palm FLAT or parallel to the ground out in front of you while holding the club with your right hand out in front of you with BOTH about waist level and the shaft aimed at your left hip socket and the clubface vertical/SQUARE you take the bottom of the grip and place it dead center on the line.........(later you can experiment by placing the club SLIGHTLY above the line for a weaker grip if necessary, which it probably will).......NOW, simply wrap your left hand OVER the top of the grip towards your right arm making sure that the 1st joint of the L thumb is placed on the grip and that the L thumb is right of center on the grip.....DO NOT place the area above the 1st joint (below the nail) as the primary contact point of the left thumb on the club, its ALWAYS the pad below the 1st joint......whallah.....NOW you have your left hand on the club properly.......

NOW for the right hand.......while holding the club in your now PERFECT left hand grip out in front of you and at waist high take your right hand and open it up wide and place the bottom of the grip on the middle two knuckles and wrap the right hand over the left thumb until the left thumb is securely in the lifeline "slot" of the right palm and the right hand "feels" in the fingers.......make sure to have the "trigger" index finger with about half of the thumb connected to the area of the side of your palm directly above the right index finger.......

NOW, if you've done this correctly your hands will be on the club in a "natural" way exactly as they hang from your body if your arms are relaxed and at your side AND the club will now be primarily in your fingers with the last 3 fingers of the left hand in a position to pull "upwards" while the heel pad of the left hand (part of the thumb in your palm) can now push downwards.....VERY secure left hand grip......NOW the middle two fingers of your right hand can pull upwards while the heel pad of the right hand can push downwards on the left thumb compressing it against the shaft.......PERFECT......

I recommend around a 6 of 10 when it comes to grip pressure.....but this can vary greatly depending on the strength of your hands.....as a former baseball player your hands should be like mine and be pretty strong relative to their size so a 5 /6/7 grip pressure should be perfect.....

Remember this, you ALWAYS P L A C E your hands on a golf club......VERY CAREFULLY! Your grip is your ONLY connection to the golf club and if its incorrect you are D E A D before you take the club back! The last thing you want to do is grip it incorrectly and then create a golf "swing" (I use the term very loosely in this context... ) that simply attempts to overcome a poor grip......a grip that cannot and will not allow for the arms/club to perform as they should and would "naturally" do IF the grip was correct.......as a result of a poor grip a golfer will now have TWO hands fighting one another and NOT securely on the club acting as a hinging UNIT as they would with a fundamentally correct grip. Result: A crummy swing that is nothing more than a bunch of "compensations" attempting to overcome one another.......

I laugh my arse off at some of the comments left in this area of this site........guy's out there trying all sorts of "exotic" techniques, training aids, etc. who have NO chance of EVER swinging the golf club in a fundamentally sound manner......WHY???.....they don't even have their bloody HANDS on the club correctly! The simplest and BY FAR the most important fundamental and they ignore it to work on some fantastic "move" they heard/read/were told about that is the "secret" to the game......LOL

The SECRET to golf is this......set up fundamentally sound......learn to start the swing together......allow the arms to swing along with the winding trunk.......when the trunk stops winding the arms/club stop also......just as the arms/trunk conclude the backswing (or a micro-second before) the lower trunk, knees/legs initiate the downswing transferring the "rotation" from the right leg to the left leg.......unwind all the power that you wound up and created in the backswing through the ball and around to the left into a perfectly balance finish........trunk fully rotated over the left leg......right foot up and on the right toe with very lil' weight, if any, remaining on the right foot......arms around the trunk at shoulder level.......shaft perpindicular to the spine......BALANCE.....

See there is NO one secret.......but, IF there was it would be this......GREAT fundamentals....especially GRIP and POSTURE.....in 22 years of teaching this game and 42 years of playing (most of which at a pretty high level) I've never seen a person of avg. athletic ability who, once they ingrained a fundamentally sound grip, posture, and had a solid idea/feel of a proper pivot, didn't end up hitting the ball dead solid.......then its simply a matter of determining their ball flight errors and correcting them.....whallah.....great swing........no big deal IF the student has patience......SHORT TERM in golf is ONE year........ONE year of dedicated and patient hard work for a lifetime of good golf.......not much to sacrifice IMOP IF the person REALLY wants to be a good player.......

I've been privileged in my life to be around and friends with many world class golfer......I won't bother to name drop, but, trust me I've played with most of the best American playes from the age of 35 on up......No matter whether they had a 2, 3, 4, "knuckle" left hand they ALL placed their hands on the club in a fundamentally sound fashion......a fashion in which the two hands could work together almost as one.....perfectly acclimated to one another and the clubface.....it IS a MUST if a player wants to be really good......an absolute MUST!

Get that grip CORRECT and I'll guarantee you that the club will hinge all by itself in the backswing then you can quit worrying about it!

Your comment certainly DID help, because I had it completely wrong and it was making the discussion very confusing! I didn't mean wrist hinge at all - I have been asking about the

degree of 'cupping.' Slicefixer referred to the bad 'bowing down' of the left wrist in the picture, which I was calling a lack of wrist hinge. What I really meant was that I have been adding 'anti-cupping' (or 'bowing up') during my backswing, by which I mean that the angle between the back of my wrist and the back of my hand goes under 180 degrees to maybe about 120 degrees. It's pretty straight (about 180 degrees) at address. It is dawning on me that changing that angle during the backswing is likely to make it very difficult to have the clubface square at impact. Since I was advised in late August to have a good deal of 'bowing up' at the top of the backswing to increase range of motion, I was concluding that I should have the same bowing at address. But so far during this exchange I am not getting that message.

Thanks for noticing my confusion and for remarking upon it.

Optimist,

I think your confused about wrist hinge and cupping of the wrist. Place your left hand and forearm, palm down, flat on a table in front of you. Keeping your hand flat on the table and your forearm stationary move/slide your hand left and right, that describes wrist hinge. If you make a fist and turn your hand thumb up, moving your hand left and right describes wrist cupping. If you have a little cupping at address with your left hand you want to maintain that amount of "cup" throughout your back swing, this will help keep your clubhead square. With soft wrists at impact you should have a little bowing or "supination" of the left wrist, a la Hogans 5 fundamentals. HTH...

 

G

49120[/snapback]

NO, you should have essentially the same "crinkles" in your left wrist at the top that you have at address.......there will be some reduction in the amount of "cup" in your left wrist due to the right wrist hinging, but, you will still have a "cup" in your left wrist........some players like Sluman have the exact same "cup" at the top that they had at address......In fact, two the "images" I use to stop players from sucking the club inside are.....

1. Retain the "crinkles" in the left wrist from set up to the top of the backswing.....

2. Retain the angle that you have at set up between the arms and the shaft until the top of the backswing.....

Both work like a charm once a student gets the "feel"......

So, your definitely on the right track!

That's a great description of the grip, s.f.! It sounds just like what I read in Hogan's five lessons with those hand drawings. Would you agree with his description of it? It's what I strive for - though it doesn't mean i've got it right yet.

My wife/advisor refused to sign off on me getting my custom clubs in June until I had memorized that book. And she still isn't happy, because, she says I don't read it 'often enough.'

What I think I am getting is that grips of different strength don't violate grip fundamentals as long as both hands rotate around the club shaft together at address.

My question concerned the amount of wrist CUPPING at the top of the backswing. I now realize that talking about cupping at address doesn't make sense, since cupping actually moves the clubhead along the target line. So you could tell from the picture that since there was a bowing-down of the left wrist at the top of the backswing, AND the clubface had the correct orientation, that the grip have been wrong at setup. It sounds like I need to be checking my clubface angle at the top of my backswing now, and using it to determine the amount of cupping. And it certainly sounds like you liked the single plane (shaft/shoulders) characteristic, which doesn't feel very natural to me. I've been considering abandoning the attempt to keep that backswing so low and just going with what feels natural.

btw, would YOU say that draws and fades have the same swing path relative to the setup, i.e. that only the clubface angle changes? Or do you teach your students to shape their shots by altering the swing path to out-in or in-out? Or do something with the wrists. I've heard one golfer say they can shape shots by changing grip pressure, which I am imagining to mean that they freeze or loosen their wrists through impact.

Talk about patience, I'VE GOT IT. I play 5/6 times a week with 3/4 range and short game sessions in addition. I even play when I don't particularly feel like it. I WILL figure this out! I've got a really good advisor, too. If I go to the tee and mutter something about a fade, she lights into me somethin' fierce. She's the one that made me think up the name The Optimist. She'll accept nothing less.

OK, now THIS is getting easier to figure out..........

 

You DO NOT have your hands on the club correctly......that I WILL guarantee you.....Do this..

 

Take a marker and draw a line from the top join of the lil' finger of the L hand diagonally across the palm until it intersects with LAST joint of the index finger.......you'll have a line running across you fingers from the beginning of the palm above the lil' finger to the crease of the last joint of the index finger........Now, laying your palm FLAT or parallel to the ground out in front of you while holding the club with your right hand out in front of you with BOTH about waist level and the shaft aimed at your left hip socket and the clubface vertical/SQUARE you take the bottom of the grip and place it dead center on the line.........(later you can experiment by placing the club SLIGHTLY above the line for a weaker grip if necessary, which it probably will).......NOW, simply wrap your left hand OVER the top of the grip towards your right arm making sure that the 1st joint of the L thumb is placed on the grip and that the L thumb is right of center on the grip.....DO NOT place the area above the 1st joint (below the nail) as the primary contact point of the left thumb on the club, its ALWAYS the pad below the 1st joint......whallah.....NOW you have your left hand on the club properly.......

 

NOW for the right hand.......while holding the club in your now PERFECT left hand grip out in front of you and at waist high take your right hand and open it up wide and place the bottom of the grip on the middle two knuckles and wrap the right hand over the left thumb until the left thumb is securely in the lifeline "slot" of the right palm and the right hand "feels" in the fingers.......make sure to have the "trigger" index finger with about half of the thumb connected to the area of the side of your palm directly above the right index finger.......

 

NOW, if you've done this correctly your hands will be on the club in a "natural" way exactly as they hang from your body if your arms are relaxed and at your side AND the club will now be primarily in your fingers with the last 3 fingers of the left hand in a position to pull "upwards" while the heel pad of the left hand (part of the thumb in your palm) can now push downwards.....VERY secure left hand grip......NOW the middle two fingers of your right hand can pull upwards while the heel pad of the right hand can push downwards on the left thumb compressing it against the shaft.......PERFECT......

 

I recommend around a 6 of 10 when it comes to grip pressure.....but this can vary greatly depending on the strength of your hands.....as a former baseball player your hands should be like mine and be pretty strong relative to their size so a 5 /6/7 grip pressure should be perfect.....

 

Remember this, you ALWAYS    P L A C E    your hands on a golf club......VERY CAREFULLY!  Your grip is your ONLY connection to the golf club and if its incorrect you are D E A D before you take the club back!  The last thing you want to do is grip it incorrectly and then create a golf "swing" (I use the term very loosely in this context...  ) that simply attempts to overcome a poor grip......a grip that cannot and will not allow for the arms/club to perform as they should and would "naturally" do IF the grip was correct.......as a result of a poor grip a golfer will now have TWO hands fighting one another and NOT securely on the club acting as a hinging UNIT as they would with a fundamentally correct grip.  Result:  A crummy swing that is nothing more than a bunch of "compensations" attempting to overcome one another.......

 

I laugh my arse off at some of the comments left in this area of this site........guy's out there trying all sorts of "exotic" techniques, training aids, etc. who have NO chance of EVER swinging the golf club in a fundamentally sound manner......WHY???.....they don't even have their bloody HANDS on the club correctly!  The simplest and BY FAR the most important fundamental and they ignore it to work on some fantastic "move" they heard/read/were told about that is the "secret" to the game......LOL

 

The SECRET to golf is this......set up fundamentally sound......learn to start the swing together......allow the arms to swing along with the winding trunk.......when the trunk stops winding the arms/club stop also......just as the arms/trunk conclude the backswing (or a micro-second before) the lower trunk, knees/legs initiate the downswing transferring the "rotation" from the right leg to the left leg.......unwind all the power that you wound up and created in the backswing through the ball and around to the left into a perfectly balance finish........trunk fully rotated over the left leg......right foot up and on the right toe with very lil' weight, if any, remaining on the right foot......arms around the trunk at shoulder level.......shaft perpindicular to the spine......BALANCE.....

 

See there is NO one secret.......but, IF there was it would be this......GREAT fundamentals....especially GRIP and POSTURE.....in 22 years of teaching this game and 42 years of playing (most of which at a pretty high level) I've never seen a person of avg. athletic ability who, once they ingrained a fundamentally sound grip, posture, and had a solid idea/feel of a proper pivot, didn't end up hitting the ball dead solid.......then its simply a matter of determining their ball flight errors and correcting them.....whallah.....great swing........no big deal IF the student has patience......SHORT TERM in golf is ONE year........ONE year of dedicated and patient hard work for a lifetime of good golf.......not much to sacrifice IMOP IF the person REALLY wants to be a good player.......

 

I've been privileged in my life to be around and friends with many world class golfer......I won't bother to name drop, but, trust me I've played with most of the best American playes from the age of 35 on up......No matter whether they had a 2, 3, 4, "knuckle" left hand they ALL placed their hands on the club in a fundamentally sound fashion......a fashion in which the two hands could work together almost as one.....perfectly acclimated to one another and the clubface.....it IS a MUST if a player wants to be really good......an absolute MUST!

 

Get that grip CORRECT and I'll guarantee you that the club will hinge all by itself in the backswing then you can quit worrying about it!

49129[/snapback]

oops, now i see you answered some of my questions before I got my message off.

thanks again, o.

NO, you should have essentially the same "crinkles" in your left wrist at the top that you have at address.......there will be some reduction in the amount of "cup" in your left wrist due to the right wrist hinging, but, you will still have a "cup" in your left wrist........some players like Sluman have the exact same "cup" at the top that they had at address......In fact, two the "images" I use to stop players from sucking the club inside are.....

 

1. Retain the "crinkles" in the left wrist from set up to the top of the backswing.....

 

2. Retain the angle that you have at set up between the arms and the shaft until the top of the backswing.....

 

Both work like a charm once a student gets the "feel"......

 

So, your definitely on the right track!

49180[/snapback]

Big, rereadiing your last sentence made me wonder if you are saying that the amount of left-wrist-cupping might be slightly greater at impact than at address. A slight bowing of the left wrist, as opposed to a slight cupping at address, would mean that the hands are ahead of the dubhead at impact. Is that what you meant? -- o

Optimist,

I think your confused about wrist hinge and cupping of the wrist. Place your left hand and forearm, palm down, flat on a table in front of you. Keeping your hand flat on the table and your forearm stationary move/slide your hand left and right, that describes wrist hinge. If you make a fist and turn your hand thumb up, moving your hand left and right describes wrist cupping. If you have a little cupping at address with your left hand you want to maintain that amount of "cup" throughout your back swing, this will help keep your clubhead square. With soft wrists at impact you should have a little bowing or "supination" of the left wrist, a la Hogans 5 fundamentals. HTH...

 

G

49120[/snapback]

Very good explanation. I will try to aim off like you say midway with the clubface. I work the ball poorly and play my best when hitting straight. The problem for most players like me ( i'm off 8 ) is we are not good enough to work it accurately hitting the correct trajectory is about as good as we can realistically do.

"Loaded" question".......

 

First of all you need to know just WHAT a "power fade" is by definition......a "power fade" is a fade hit from the inside exactly like a properly hit straight ball or draw.......the clubhead is actually traveling on the EXACT same path relative to the body as with a draw, etc. but the clubhead is simply open relative to the body lines at impact.....this is set up during the "set up" by simply setting the clubhead slightly open to your body alignment/intended aimpoint while maintaining your normal grip......

 

To  hit a "power fade" depends TOTALLY on the type of golf swing......

 

A good ballstriker who has the proper impact dynamics can hit a "power" fade quite easily........they simply align themselves in the direction they wish the ball to START and aim the clubface BETWEEN their bodies alignment and the position they wish to ball to finish......they then make the exact same golf swing as normal......its VERY important that you do TWO things IF your currrently a good ballstriker and wish to "work" the golf shot.....

 

- ALWAYS aim the clubface at a point in BETWEEN where your body is aligned and the point you wish the ball to finish......IF you aim the clubface at the point where you wish the ball to finish AND make a good swing the ball will cut/draw to that point and then run out AWAY from that point......IF you set up correctly the ball will land BETWEEN your body alignment and the target and work towards the target......

 

- ALWAYS make sure you focus 100% on STARTING the ball along your body lines......all good player have a tendency to swing towards their intended target and IF your trying to play fade they will inevitably "push" the ball towards their final target resulting in a push fade which finishes right of target......opposite for a draw......SO, its VERY important that the player ALWAYS make his/her last thoughts on the "aimpoint" and NOT the final target........

 

Now, for the vast majority of golfers a power fade is just about impossible for them to hit as they will belong to one of two swing "clubs".......either they suck the club too far behind them in the backswing and then reroute the club "over the top" or over their backswing plane and end up hitting the ball from outside their aimpoint while also casting the clubhead OR in some decent  players case, they will NOT reroute the club but simply swing too much from the inside on the downswing and "freeze" the trunk on the downswing in an attempt to release the clubhead with their arms and hands as that IS the ONLY way that the clubface can be released in order to sqaure the clubface at impact....(UNLESS you have a SEVERLY strong 4 knuckle grip)......most have an incorrect "image" of a golf swing in that they THINK the clubhead is supposed to travel from "inside-out" which is 100% TOTALLY incorrect....as a result the will ALWAYS be a pusher/hooker/snap hooker for the entirety of their golfing lives.......

 

In actual fact the clubhead travels on an arc that is on an inclined/tilted plane and as a result the clubhead travels up and around in the backswing and down and around in the downswing until impact where it travels up and around again into the finish......RESULT.....the clubhead is traveling from the inside just prior to impact and then down the target line for a "nano-second" and then back to the inside.......

 

Probably the two WORST statements/images ever taught to a golfer are "keep your head still" and swing "inside-out".......simply TERRIBLE images for most golfers.......

 

You can suck the clubhead inside and reroute it over and hit a pull fade, which if struck from a proper path (ie. NOT over the proper path but on it) can produce as powerful a fade as can be hit.....Snead, Lietzke, Craig Parry, D.A. Wiebring all hit "power fades" from OVER their backswing paths but still from INSIDE the target line.......in fact, this is probably the MOST reliable way to hit a "power/knuckle fade" consistently......the only problem with this type of action is its VERY hard to hit a repeating draw when needed.........all of the mentioned  players hit a "pull draw" when trying to draw the ball......meaning they aim well right of the target......starte the ball left of where their bodies were aligned but still right of target and then draw the ball back towards the target........VERY inconsistent way to hit a draw (UNLESS your Kenny Perry...).......but can be done....

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In answer to one other question you posed......YES, the path for a fade or draw is exactly the same relative to the body lines.....you do NOT cut across the ball to fade it and hit "inside - out" to draw it......at least its NOT necessary to do so.......you can do both to work the ball but you will be the "double cross" king due to all of the manipulation of the face and path in the impact zone.......NOW, the part about grip "pressure" is very true.......IF you want to enusure that you don't double cross a shot then you can add pressure to the last 3 fingers of the left hand to fade it.....let those fingers dominate the grip.......or the middle 2 fingers of the right hand to hook it..........I do NOT recommend that you do so, but, I do know very good players who will do exactly that to work the ball one way or another......

I just think that its HARD enough to learn O N E swing......you can't have a cut swing, draw swing, knockdown swing, lowball swing, high ball swing X all the 13 "field" clubs in your bag.......ALL you have to do is create a fundamentally sound golf swing and then by simply "dialing" in the shot you want to play at set up you can hit anything you want.....high, low, draw, fade, high fade, low fade, knockdown, etc. The SET UP combined with the "dynamics" of the shot that results will "change" the swing....ie. you'll finish shorter and lower for a low punch shot.......higher and a you'll finish a lil' but more behind the ball for a towering high shot......etc.....But, the swing MOTION never changes.......its always a combination of good fundamentals, a fundamentally sound pivot, and proper synchronization of the arms/club to the pivot.......

It all might sound complicated.....but in reality it isn't! Just takes a thorough understanding of .........

- EXACTLY W H A T your trying to do.......

- WHERE Y O U are as it relates to what your trying to do......

- And then a disciplined PLAN for YOUR improvement.......to get you to quite "chasing your tail" and start working the right direction......

Then TIME and PATIENCE!!!.........(and hard work....hehehe)

Optimist,

Your on the right track and Slicefixer has you covered. I try to keep my wrist cupped to the same degree throughout my backswing to keep my clubhead square into the top position. The "bowing" or supination (hogan) happens as a result of lag, this only happens if you maintain light grip pressure and low tension in your hands and arms, and it occurs naturally and without conscious manipulation. Some players have a grip/swing dynamic that allows them to take the club up to the top with a more "flat" left wrist position all the while maintaining a square clubface, Tiger Woods is a good example of this. Unfortunately, I don't possess that characteristic. The bottom line in my opinion is to get the club in the correct plane and with a square clubface at the top which will give you the best opportunity/chance to strike the ball square and solid. A square clubface at the top has the score lines or clubface parallel to your left forearm, a more horizontal face means you are closed, more vertical and you are open relative to your swing plane. You can use a mirror to check your top of swing position, or maybe try taping a 3x5 card on your shaft near the grip square to your clubface so you can see how your hands affect clubface angle at the top (see D Leadbetters swing setter). Good Luck....

G

Thanks for the useful remarks. I felt a little silly asking all these questions when I looked in Hogan's book and saw that all the answers are right there in plain sight. Yes, there is a slight cupping of the left wrist at impact, yes, it is the same at the top of the backswing and yes, there is a little bowing at impact, which means that the hands are slightly ahead of the clubhead at impact.

However, I don't think he mentioned the important point you brought up about having a light grip pressure. I have a problem with gripping too tightly and with too much tension in my arms and hands. This bad habit comes from the swing thought that I have to have everything rigidly under control during the swing.

Also, I am not sure this discussion can be complete without reference to swing speed and shaft stiffness. I might be wrong, but having seen measurements of clubhead speed and shaft flex throughout the course of the swing, I suspect that the clubface angle will depend on getting that last little kick in clubhead speed just before impact. I think my clubmaker told me that a shaft which is too floppy for the swing speed will hang back at impact, leaving the face open.

Obviously the first thing is to get the swing right. But until one gets custom fit clubs, it could be that a good swing will not necessarily provide the best result. And then one is back in the dreaded multi-compensation mode cited by mr fixer.

I am going to try that 3x5 card test. I get the impression from Chris Demarco's habit that he is checking his clubface angle at the 90-degree point of his backswing, which is

your last chance if you don't have a mirror or a card.

Optimist,

 

Your on the right track and Slicefixer has you covered. I try to keep my wrist cupped to the same degree throughout my backswing to keep my clubhead square into the top position. The "bowing" or supination (hogan) happens as a result of lag, this only happens if you maintain light grip pressure and low tension in your hands and arms, and it occurs naturally and without conscious manipulation. Some players have a grip/swing dynamic that allows them to take the club up to the top with a more "flat" left wrist position all the while maintaining a square clubface, Tiger Woods is a good example of this. Unfortunately, I don't possess that characteristic. The bottom line in my opinion is to get the club in the correct plane and with a square clubface at the top which will give you the best opportunity/chance to strike the ball square and solid. A square clubface at the top has the score lines or clubface parallel to your left forearm, a more horizontal face means you are closed, more vertical and you are open relative to your swing plane. You can use a mirror to check your top of swing position, or maybe try taping a 3x5 card on your shaft near the grip square to your clubface so you can see how your hands affect clubface angle at the top (see D Leadbetters swing setter). Good Luck....

 

G

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