More consistency and less back strain with power?

[LaggingBehind]

Hey all,

 

I'm new to the forum. I started playing golf when I was a boy just hitting balls around the yard and watching the golf channel to learn how to do it.

Anyway, I've recenlty gotten hooked on this game again and started playing more frequently. I believe I strike the ball well, but am pretty inconsistent in doing so. Also, my back starts hurting after a few full swings. Its not bad, but I want to fix the issue before it becomes serious.

Ultimately I want to start playing in some local tournaments. I miss competion and I think golf can fill that void for me.

Thanks for looking!

Edit: hitting a 3i in the vids

 

[media=]

[/media]

[media=]

[/media]

[LaggingBehind]

After looking around on the forums, it seems like I'm taking my right arm too far past parallel with the ground. I was wondering if I should flex my wrists earlier too? Any input is appreciated.

[LaggingBehind]

Shortening my backswing has lessened the back pain. It has been difficult to do it consistently though and as soon as I forget to do it I feel the pain. I also feel like I'm more explosive and consistent of a ball striker with a shorter swing which is quite a nice benefit. I'll try to get a vid up to compare as soon as I'm out on the range with my buddies, probably will not be until next week though.

I've also noticed I'm flexing the shaft a bit too much maybe, and am thinking I need stiffer iron shafts. I'm not sure what the specs are at the moment, I just know they are regular flex steel shafts. Looks like I need to do some homework on different shafts.

If its ok with the mods I'd like to use this thread as sort of a golf diary to keep track of my swing.

Cheers

[LaggingBehind]

I went to the range today to work on lateral hip movement like in this drill.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJOywpFGzUA[/media]
I also kept my shortened backswing and added more hip bend at address. I hit a full bucket and have 0 back pain! I also hit a lot more balls flush. My biggest issue seems to be taking a consistent swing path.
For example, if I hook the ball, next swing I take a more out-to-in path and hit it straight or hit a fade. Next ball I try the same swing path and slice it. So I go more in-to-out next time and I hit it straight or draw it. Try it again and hook it. It seems to be a never ending circle haha!

[Lefthook]

That's a pretty athletic move you've got there LB!

There's nothing obvious that pops out of the video explaining your back problems. The only I can think of is how you maintain your forward tilt into the finish. It may be better for your back if you release all angles past impact. A finish with straighter head and flatter shoulders.

In any case you should take the signals from your body serious and try to change whatever is causing the stress. It can get serious enough to prevent you from golfing before you know it.

[LaggingBehind]

That's a pretty athletic move you've got there LB!

 

There's nothing obvious that pops out of the video explaining your back problems. The only I can think of is how you maintain your forward tilt into the finish. It may be better for your back if you release all angles past impact. A finish with straighter head and flatter shoulders.

 

In any case you should take the signals from your body serious and try to change whatever is causing the stress. It can get serious enough to prevent you from golfing before you know it.

I think you hit it on the head with releasing the angles past impact. It's in the follow through where I feel the pain.

This can't be good for my spine...

 

Any ideas on how to fix this issue?

[Lefthook]

Study some of the great ball strikers on youtube. See how they release the tension in their spine into the finish. Practice the same, first without a ball. It should't be too hard to change this, but if it is deeply ingrained you may need a few reps.

[LaggingBehind]

Tried to slightly open my stance and stop my follow through a little short. Also, instead of rotating around the ball I tried to go through it to the target. It felt like I was trying to hit a punch but the ball still flew just as high. In combination with a shorter backswing I've been hitting the ball well and my back hasn't been as sore. I've actually never shot better than today, it was really fun.

Thank you for the input Lefthook! I sort of modeled my follow through from videos of Tiger. I noticed how his hands stop way before mine do.
A few more sessions and I think I can get this worked out.

[Lefthook]

That sounds really good, LB.

Best of luck with your game.

[LaggingBehind]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1409694280' post='10051965']
That sounds really good, LB.

Best of luck with your game.
[/quote]
Thank you.

I went to the range yesterday and was striking the ball really well. Shortening my backswing and follow actually results in more power (to my surprise) while improving my ball striking. I had a strange issue though, which I believe to be the result of too much shaft flex.
I have a 3 iron (Callaway X-20 tour) I bought separately from my set, and it came with a flight project x 6.0 shaft. The rest of the shafts (4-pw) are stock Callaway "uniflex" (Non-tour X-20s). My swing felt great, but I was slicing the ball high left with every shot, even though I was making great contact. Divot path was going straight to the target as well. I also hit a couple fat that flew straight towards my target.
My 3i, on the other hand flew much straighter with the same swing. More of a fade than a slice. Is this indicative of poor shaft fitting?

[Reasonability]

LB,

I would be in no position to help you on a continuing basis... That would take a local instructor or maybe signing up for those Swing-Fix lessons at about $20 each (at least that's what they used to cost.)

What I can do inside of one post is share a little of what I would do if it were me having looked at some of your videos and posts. First there are two things to be said. A) I have suffered major back problems. You are VERY wise to get that in check. Not only will your swing thank you... but believe me when I say a damaged back isn't normally like a sprained ankle or something... the damage can be pretty much permanent and life altering. So you are so wise in getting to a solution there. B) There are many good things going on here. Namely your focus, dedication, research, and while we're at it, your swing is not at all bad. I see a few things I will share, but it is far from being an absolute mess.

So speaking very broadly - there are a few little bits of imagery and swing dynamics that I will share with you from my perspective. These things sort of shape a golfer's overall swing philosophy, how he practices, and his expectations at address about what is about to happen back and through. This whole subject matter is really not talked about much -- we all tend instead to look for positions and work on transition, or how to release through impact. All that "stuff" is great. But still, laying underneath it all is some sort of "feels" we've had before when a good shot occurred, or we picture the swing in our minds as being some sort of "thing" -- maybe its an image of the club moving through the ball, or some sort of move or feel from the top of the backswing... whatever it is... it is. But we all have these sort of images and feels which shape how we practice and approach the game. One bit of imagery that may help you is looking at the swings of pros and how they are posted up over their lead leg at the finish. You do a great job of staying in posture, but there is a point where the trail side of a golfer's body has moved through the shot and the begin AFTER IMPACT to post up vertically over that trail foot and leg.

As to your equipment and the shafts. It can be safely said that if you took a lesson from someone with a launch monitor -- they could provide you the printout of pretty much everything going on dynamically with your swing (swing speed, angle of attack, and a whole host of other data). You could make a post in the equipment forum of that data and there are many gurus there who could advise you better than me as to re-shafting specifics which would likely remove all doubt about the issue. Normally, when taking such a lesson from an instructor with a launch monitor -- he would normally be able to offer such advise as well AND help you with the swing -- so you get a two-pronged benefit.

Now -- about your swing and what I personally see. I will pose it in the form of questions so that you can see exactly what I see.

1) At setup -- if an alignment rod rested across your chest and passed right over the shoulders -- Where would that alignment be compared to your feet, knees, and hips? Do you notice where the shoulders are pointing compared to the rest of you?

[i]FOR THESE NEXT TWO ITEMS IMAGINE THE LINE RIGHT ALONG THE GROUND THAT RUNS FROM BEHIND THE BALL, THROUGH THE BALL, AND ON TO THE TARGET... AKA THE TARGET LINE.[/i]

2) Notice in the backswing -- as you finish the initial takeaway and the shaft of your club first reaches parallel with the ground. Do you see where the club is pointing? Would you say its parallel to the target line at this point?

3) Index your video by stopping and starting as through you are watching your entire swing frame by frame. In doing so, watch in particular where the shaft points relative to the target line in the last half of your backswing, AND the first half of your downswing. Would you say that the club shaft spends most of that journey pointing at or near the target line?

OK, rather than play 20 questions with you like this... (and it wasn't done to condescend to you but rather share with you what my eye is seeing)... this is the "imagery" thing coming to life in a way that may significantly help you... or at least I hope so anyway.

With an ideal takeaway, once the club reaches ground-parallel for the first time, the shaft is also parallel with the target line. Its a little inside the target line, but its parallel. So you suffer a little from what is called an inside takeaway. Once this happens you are forced to finish your backswing with a flattened shaft.

Amazingly. once you make it to the top -- you really make some last second adjustments to set the club and come very close to getting back on plane. However the struggle in doing that has some costs in your downswing.

A great and simple drill for you would be to stick an alignment rod along the ground and take "dry" practice swings. With that stick a tee in the butt end of the handle of your club. Now make a takeaway where the hands, the handle, forearms, elbow, and sternum move into the takeaway to the point where the shaft gets to that ground-parallel point with the shaft of the club also being parallel to the alignment stick on the ground. While you're at it, make sure at setup that your shoulders aren't pointing in a different direction than the rest of you.

Then in the last half of the backswing, and for much of your downswing --- get that tee in the butt end of the handle pointing back down and along the target line. As you do, rotate around your spine and get the trail elbow passing in front of your trail hip. Don't "yank" the handle down, just maintain consistent grip pressure and transport that hand/arm/club structure down and let the wrists unhinge off of your trail hip and opening/rotating body.

One more doo-dad here... when making these dry swings, you will feel absolutely terrible about it at first because it represents change and something new. All I can promise you is to stay relaxed, keep the tension down and get into a great setup and grip so that this piece of the puzzle gets easier and easier. AND on the downswing you will need to get your left elbow passing in front of your right hip as you rotate through the strike. This will take a tiny bit of stress off of your lower spine because as things are, you are sort of diving the trail shoulder downward at the toes through the shot and trying to stay in posture deep into your follow through. Staying in posture is GOOD, but you enter your follow through after having sharply driven your back shoulder downward into the shot. What I'm proposing is the let the trail elbow pass in front of your trail hip AS YOU TURN through the shot with your body. There will be a sense in all of this that the club stays in front of the sternum a little longer both back and through. Stay connected (lead upper arm to outer edge of the chest/breast area, stay very relaxed, and take your time with it. My bet is you will feel a wider and smoother swing with more hit for half the effort.

So there is about all of the tank I know how to dump on you my friend. There is no doubt with your focus and deep dive searching -- a great instructor out there for you -- maybe in time some new shafts for you... and I hope above all -- a healthy back for you.

Best of luck with it and btw -- I'm more of an acoustical guy -- but I do like the axe.

[LaggingBehind]

Wow, thank you for that detailed response Reasonabiliy. I went to the course today and tried to emply your suggestions as they seem very "reasonable". The driving range was closed to I just worked on it while playing a round.

For the alignment, I see what you mean about my shoulders not matching my feet. It seems that my feet tend to aim left of the target line while my shoulders are parallel to it.

Also, I agree about the inside take away and then the slight over-the-top move to get back in plane. I worked on that as well, and the tee in the handle drill was great. I felt like I was taking the club back way too outside, but "feel is not real" as I've read many times on this forum. This helped me get the shaft parallel to target line while at the top.

All of these thing really help me to make a more comfortable swing.

Here are a few vids of me trying to employ those suggestions.
I'm trying to line up my shoulders and come outside (more down target line) but ended up slicing this drive.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsSLN5w-gX4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsSLN5w-gX4[/url]

[LaggingBehind]

Heres a choked down 7i, again trying to take way parallel to target line. I hit it on target.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QqLZ4KvZKU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QqLZ4KvZKU[/url]

Heres another drive, but I tried to push my hands more left to avoid the slice. I hit this one straight and you can here me say "there it is" lol.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4AWX9GBCSg&feature=youtu.be"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4AWX9GBCSg&feature=youtu.be[/url]

[Reasonability]

Well done -- you can already see the difference taking hold in the better swings. The driver -- it just takes time. That 7 iron swing and last driver swings were impressive. Keep and eye on the shoulders at address. Take your time with it and have fun!

[LaggingBehind]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1410728538' post='10116481']
Well done -- you can already see the difference taking hold in the better swings. The driver -- it just takes time. That 7 iron swing and last driver swings were impressive. Keep and eye on the shoulders at address. Take your time with it and have fun!
[/quote]
Thanks, it was easier to swing when I was able to get it all together. Its just going to take time like you say for me to cement it. My back doesn't hurt me as I'm typing this either, which is a big plus.

Your help is much appreciated!

[deserter]

In the very first video in this thread, everything is moving to your left (behind the ball) quite a bit. You make it back more or less in time, but it can be hard to time on occasion.

Try rotating your shoulders in a more upright angle and more around your spine on the way back. This should result in a more centered pivot. It's a little different to what you're doing and might feel strange at first. Make sure that with this change you don't start swaying your hips in the backswing.

[LaggingBehind]

[quote name='deserter' timestamp='1410732991' post='10116799']
In the very first video in this thread, everything is moving to your left (behind the ball) quite a bit. You make it back more or less in time, but it can be hard to time on occasion.

Try rotating your shoulders in a more upright angle and more around your spine on the way back. This should result in a more centered pivot. It's a little different to what you're doing and might feel strange at first. Make sure that with this change you don't start swaying your hips in the backswing.
[/quote]
Thanks, I'm trying to transfer my weight with less "shift". I think I've made some progress but I'm still working on it. Its something that I can tell will improve my ball striking.

[LaggingBehind]

Yesterday I played 18 (again driving range was closed) and worked on swinging with less lateral movement. I also straightened my back leg out some on the backswing (sort of like Rory) which helped to stay over the ball. I had effortless power and was striking the ball well, but I couldn't find a good swing path. I started out swinging in to out and hooking the ball, and tried to fix it and began to swing out to in and slice it. Needless to say, I played horribly but I think there are some positives to take away. This was the first time I've felt like my swing was easy, and also was a big improvement for my back. I just need to figure out how to combine this with a proper swing plane.

[LaggingBehind]

I hope to get some new videos up this weekend, but I've done a few things that have really helped. I think I found the right amount secondary tilt to add at address and I've lessened the amount of lateral shift. It feels more like my weight is shift from inside my left foot to my right foot.

I picked up a used set of Callaway X forged 2009 3-pw (PX 6.0 shafts) in really good condition and they make swinging much easier. Actually, everything is easier. My misses are less severe and I don't have to try to swing down as much to compress the ball. It cuts through the turf like butter so I just need to focus on hitting the ball first and not worry about hitting down so hard that I can get through the dirt.

One draw back is that I can now hit "slightly" fat shots that still feel pretty good but go ~5-10 yards short. This is not a big deal though since my left/right dispersion is reduced drastically. The spin is much less on these irons too, which is great for me.

My putting has been crap so I worked on that today. I feel confident with my stroke after todays session where I crouched over the ball more and pulled my arms closer to my belly. It made my stroke more fluid and reproducible. Hopefully I can sink a few more putts within 10'.

[LaggingBehind]

So despite getting better at putting, chipping, and iron play I've been scoring worse. I've been having more blow up holes the last few rounds for some reason??? I guess thats just the way this game goes, so damn tough... Thats what makes it fun though.

[rich_s2]

I hear you bud. I am working hard on my swing and am all over the place. I am focusing just on the range at this point as I know my score would be horrible. Finally today I had a few swings that felt sooooo easy and yet carried an 8-iron farther than I ever have before. I had it for about 10 balls then I lost it. In the end it will all be worth it and I have all winter to work on it. Your swing is better than mine so you got this! Keep the updates coming

[MK7Golf21]

its that finish that is hurting your back, Ive tried to do that in the past to help get rid of any EE in my swing but ended up getting lower back pain. Watch how hogan stood up on his finish

[LaggingBehind]

[quote name='rich s' timestamp='1412014130' post='10206761']
I hear you bud. I am working hard on my swing and am all over the place. I am focusing just on the range at this point as I know my score would be horrible. Finally today I had a few swings that felt sooooo easy and yet carried an 8-iron farther than I ever have before. I had it for about 10 balls then I lost it. In the end it will all be worth it and I have all winter to work on it. Your swing is better than mine so you got this! Keep the updates coming
[/quote]
Thanks man! It's so rewarding to feel that easy swing and see the ball compress and fly off the club face. It provides even more motivation to hit balls and figure out what the heck went right lol!
Will definitely keep the updates coming, thanks for checking out my thread!

[LaggingBehind]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1412016117' post='10207027']
its that finish that is hurting your back, Ive tried to do that in the past to help get rid of any EE in my swing but ended up getting lower back pain. Watch how hogan stood up on his finish
[/quote]
Yup, thats when I feel the pain. I'm getting better at avoiding it, need to post a more recent front-on view video up to be sure. I'll check out Hogans finish, thanks for the advice.
So far I think it helps a lot to avoid lateral movement, which is something Hogan seemed to do really well. The issue I've had in the past is getting too steep without lateral shift, but adding a bit of secondary tilt and opening my front front at address seems to help.

[LaggingBehind]

I had a much better outing today. Went to the course alone and got paired up with a group of older gentlemen. They were a great group of guys and I had a blast. I was able to hit my driver much better today as well. It was a very simple fix too LOL. All I needed to do was move the ball back in my stance a bit. I used to put it even with my front foot when I was shifting more laterally, but now that I stay over the ball better the bottom of my arc is not so far in front.

I have to throw in an "active" brag as well. There's a 330 yard par 4 where I pulled driver and smoked it right over the green, ~20 yards past. Also hit a few wedges I can be proud of.

Of course I had a slew of bad shots to go with that but I'm improving and my swing feels great.

Course notes:
-Open front foot at address ~30 degrees for driver, incrementally less for shorter clubs
-Work to lock out back leg on backswing, feel the hips load over it
-More weight on front foot when hitting wedges
-Keep head down through impact

[LaggingBehind]

The hardest part is maintaining a swing change for 18 holes. I seem to revert back after a few good holes then I have to figure out what went wrong, fix it few a few holes and something else reverts back lol. The more I learn about the swing the less I know...

Notes:
Increase tempo on take away, "Toss the club up and let it fall".

[Reasonability]

The Modern Fundamentals of Golf - 5 Lessons

That's a book written in the late 1950s by Ben Hogan. Its out there on Amazon and EBay and such. No one to this day swings it like him exactly. And for what its worth, I would not recommend reading the book, the studying videos of his swing, then trying to turn yourself into Hogan. MANY (self included) came to the conclusion that you should just read the book - take it to heart - and let your own body type and internal feel system be guided by the book

I don't personally know of one consistent ball striker and swinger of the club who hasn't read that book carefully and many times over. It may have been written a long time ago, but if you will at least check it out for a weekend at your local library - my guess is every single practice session and future post you make -- will be forever changed. Its an easy read - lots of illustrations. But you will find yourself shortening your learning curve by years. There is ONE drill in that book. Only one. Its powerful medicine.

[LaggingBehind]

Thank you, I will look into it. I agree that it's not a good idea to imitate someone entirely, only use the swing as a model to build your own from.

[LaggingBehind]

Frankly, I love to read so I bought the e-book from amazon without hesitation. Let me tell you, this is certainly to be the single greatest thing for my swing. I can understand why pros have read this book so many times. It demystifies the golf swing and lays a simple plan for achieving a powerful and repeatable swing. I was on the right path for certain areas, and way off on others, but now I feel confident that all I need to do is practice these fundamentals as they have been set before me.

I worked on the grip and the waggle before going to bed last night. The hands feel much more unified to each other and the shaft. The waggle is something I've stumbled upon from time to time by accident, and coincidentally I felt confident on the swings in which I used it. Now I know why I had that confidence, it comes from that feeling of hitting the ball solid before even beginning the backswing. Virtually knowing the result before performing the action, all from this mini-take away/practice swing.

My practice sessions will have much more direction to them from now on, and hopefully more productivity.

Thanks again Reasonability!

Regards,
LB

[mikah]

[quote name='LaggingBehind' timestamp='1412082338' post='10211111']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1412016117' post='10207027']
its that finish that is hurting your back, Ive tried to do that in the past to help get rid of any EE in my swing but ended up getting lower back pain. Watch how hogan stood up on his finish
[/quote]
Yup, thats when I feel the pain. I'm getting better at avoiding it, need to post a more recent front-on view video up to be sure. I'll check out Hogans finish, thanks for the advice.
So far I think it helps a lot to avoid lateral movement, which is something Hogan seemed to do really well. The issue I've had in the past is getting too steep without lateral shift, but adding a bit of secondary tilt and opening my front front at address seems to help.
[/quote]


Watch Ben Hogans big left toe. It always releases and balance goes to the outside of the left foot.
Check out Johnny Miller and Jack Nicklaus.

If you torque down with your left big toe at/after impact, as you seem to do
you will damage your spine/nerves.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0H7PJ0ZGys"]https://www.youtube....h?v=i0H7PJ0ZGys[/url]

PS forgot your a 'lefty'


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ocMJecgW2w