Nasty push slice

[Karamu]

Hi,

 

I'm suffering from a bad slice/ at times push slice when I tee off with my driver. I took the chance to film myself this afternoon as the course was quiet so (despite the poor angle, sorry about that) I can see what I am doing wrong- I am coming across the ball quite badly.

 

 

If anyone could suggest how to work on this I would be eternally grateful as I am getting very fed up hitting wide right! It takes a lot of distance off the shot too- I'm lucky to reach 200 yards which makes even the shorter courses a challenge.

 

Oh, and judging from my divot marks, I am doing the same thing with my irons but they mostly go reasonably straight- I do often get a slice when I tee off with my eg 5 iron etc.

 

Thanks!

[artica]

This is almost a replica of what I was doing...

Haven't taken lessons so take this with a grain of salt..

My self made rehab Q 's and practice moves were:

- Keep right elbow tucked on down swing swing
- Bend at knees more
- back swing keeping shaft with left arm as linear as possible for as long as I could

This worked for me. I also purchased a skilz stick. That worked to help me memorize the correct path.

[Karamu]

OK, cool, thanks- I am really getting frustrated so any constructive feedback is most welcomed! I'll get up the range later this week and see if I can get anywhere.

[Reasonability]

Karamu,

Welcome to WRX. You are right about the camera angle thing - and I can appreciate that being out there on the course makes it pretty tough to get a shot taken from right down the line or face on. Maybe the next time when you get the chance to have one (or better even both) shots taken nicely squared up and up off of ground level would be good.

Given the angle its a little bit a of a crap shoot here, but you were kind enough to speak about your typical issues. I will try and offer you a slight boost to see if a few things might work out a little better for you.

One thing that looks fairly clear is that your shoulder alignment at address seems to be aimed considerably to the left of the alignment of your feet. This is pretty common since the right hand is lower on the grip and there is a natural tendency to open up the shoulders. I believe I would start off by getting nicely squared up with the feet, knees, hips and shoulders.

Secondly would appears at the top of your swing that the toe of the club is hanging straight down to the ground. This is what is known as having an open clubface at the top. If it were pointing skyward that would be a shut face at the top. The goal would be having the toe somewhere in between the two extremes. Open at the top plus open shoulders at address are setting the stage for what happens on your way through the backswing. From the top of the swing back down, you almost don't have a choice but to do what you do. Part of this open clubface at the top is born in a weak grip (the hands turned too far clockwise on the handle and/or the handle sitting too much in the lifeline of the right hand versus resting a little more along the base knuckles of the right hand. You left thumb may also be extended a little too far down the handle past the hook formed under the handle by your pointer finger. You may possibly be suffering from all three. The right hand in your video definitely looks to be set a little too far around to the right. The palm "cup" or lifeline of that hand needs to sit a little more atop the left thumb. So it would appear you need to spend some time on the grip as well as your setup.

Third - the overall motion of a swing gets a TON simpler once the golfer develop a truly keen sense of how the spine angle becomes this almost "axle" with two tilts to it. There is a forward bend at the hip sockets and there is a HINT OF the upper body (head and shoulders) tilting away from the target just a tad. The goal is to turn right around this "axle" with the shoulder turn representing the upper wheel and the tailbone and hips turning as the lower wheel. You don't want this "axle" to change its position much during the swing. In other words the shoulders need to turn at 90 degrees to the spine. As seen in a down-the-line mirror behind you --- you would see that the left shoulder would be a little lower than the right shoulder at the top of the backswing -- and a line right through the shoulders would be at a right angle to your spine. In fact the left arm should be seen just about running right through that same line.

Meanwhile, the hips also turn. The right hip is allowed to actually inch back and away from the toe line as those shoulders do their thing. Its subtle and the hips don't drive the backswing. BUT the right hip pocket is supposed to inch back behind the heels in response to the arm/shoulder flow to the top. Then to start back down the hips actually make another subtle move - that being to open up just a fraction before the hands and arms start back down.

This is another key area to where you can kill your slice. At the top - try feeling this little bit of opening up of the hips a sort of feel like your back remains turned to the target a fraction longer EDIT: [s]before[/s] as the hands start back down. With the shoulders turning better and the hip turn deepening with it -- AND that hint of secondary spine tilt at address --- you will sure start to swing back down a little more from behind and inside versus out and over the top. There will come some point when you feel the right elbow passing in front of the right hip through the strike. When that happens you will love it. Right now your right wrist and elbow are working above the plane of your clubshaft in the downswing. As you swing around this better spine posture with an improved grip, you will feel and notice how the right wrist leads the right elbow in front of the right hip through the strike and the slices will be all but gone - and if not its time to re-check the grip again.

Well I hope this helps. Good luck to you and again - great to have you along here on WRX. BTW - I am NOT a pro instructor. Just a low handicapper who has played for over 45 years and made just about every mistake imaginable. There ARE pro instructors on this forum who offer lots of great videos, online lessons, and hopefully you will be hearing from one or two of them going forward. My goal is just to give you a boost and help you feel like reaching out to those guys or a local instructor in your area is something you might want to consider. (your call).

If you could get a closet mirror for practice -- the things discussed in here would be a little easier to practice and learn -- trying to "feel" your way through it or watching the occasional video can be a little frustrating since you don't get the immediate feedback. Also working up to things a little at a time can be good -- halfswings - shorter clubs - a little pause at the top -- then gradually lengthening the swings and clubs. This is all good stuff to work through in the garage during the winter.

See you out there on WRX and take care!

[Karamu]

Wow, thank you Reasonability for such a comprehensive post! You have given me a ton of stuff to think about. I knew my swing wasn't right but it wasn't until I filmed myself yesterday that I got the actual picture.

Well done for getting so much out of such a crappy video. I will try and get to the range in the next couple of days to get some better footage.

You make some good comments on my grip- this is something I have been very aware of recently so thought I had made progress with it- will need to readress...

Your observation about alignment at address makes sense- I have frequently noticed myself pulling irons off to the left when I had thought I was aiming straight.

Just one question if I may. Do you have any suggestions about any drills I could try to help me get the feel of the true swing? I understand what you are telling me about the mechanics of the swing but where I am struggling is to translate the theory into practice. (I have thought about getting some pro lessons but my personal circumstances right now rule that out financially.)

Thanks again- for the warm welcome and the words of wisdom!

[Reasonability]

Well thank you and I do understand about the old bank accounts. There are some good online lessons nowadays out there when the time comes. I think there somewhere in the 20 to 40 dollar range which is about the cost of three of four trips to the range. Some of those instructors are found right here on WRX. But again, I hear you. Been there myself more than once.

Drills. Well you may or may not quite believe this but there aren't a huge number of practice putting drills I use - Here is the way I approach the full swing (and maybe its not the best way but it works for me)...

I read Ben Hogan's book called The Modern Fundamentals of Golf - 5 Lessons. Now I read it a long time ago back when persimmon clubs were what the were and the golf ball was different. Ben was already pretty much retired as I was taking up the game. But that book I notice stands to this day as sort of the gold standard. I don't know of one really good player who hasn't carefully read through it to this very day. Now no one swings like him, and even his videos don't quite look exactly like that book reads. But it sure forms a great foundation for everything from the grip to the setup to you-name-its about the golf swing. I notice some folks sort of "skim" through it and say "Yea I read it" while others really settle in with it. I took it to heart page for page. Ben himself suggested that every single little word of it may not work exactly as written for all golfers and there have been a number of things I've sort of learned to adapt for myself - as would anyone. But I would read it and sit with it carefully if I were you. It really forms a basis for the swing.

Oddly - he has ONLY ONE DRILL mentioned in the book. It amounts to swinging the club back sort of dead-handed until the club reaches parallel to the ground - halfway back and using your turn to swing though as though your hands and arms are more or less going for a ride. The purpose of the this drill is to quiet the hands and learn to use the body - and in transition - especially the lower body (hip turn basically).

I use that drill to warm up each time I practice or play. Its just little half swings. Some call it the 9 to 3 drill (referring to a clock face).

Secondly I like to practice no more than ten (hopefully no more than five) swings with the same club. Once I'm warmed up its 5 or 10 wedges - then 5 or 10 6 irons and then maybe 5 or 10 3 woods...then back through the cycle again. The next time I might go 9 iron - 5 iron - driver. The goal though goes right back to this whole setup and turn thing. All I'm doing by changing clubs is learning to not have a favorite club and ones I hate hitting.

I spend a lot of time with a club on the ground (or dowel stick or alignment rod) working on those alignments we talked about.

BUT MOST OF ALL --

I have a cheap little closet mirror (actually two of them) and I practice all this crapola I preach in front of a mirror. One is face on and the other is down the line. I can see by peeking in the mirrors if I am swaying, or losing posture, etc.

So it comes down to half swings (al' a Hogan), switching clubs, and working in front of the mirror(s). I have from time to time put a tee in the butt end of the club and made swings -- checking to see if that tee sort of points back and along the target line once the shaft tilts up the plane and starts back down. I have laid a couple of tees in the ground or empty sleeve boxes the balls come in -- and sat those just off the toe and heel of the club at address and practiced swinging right through the "gate" to make sure I getting center of face contact with the ball. But all in all I don't have hundreds of drills per se. Just the one Hogan thing and my mirrors and such. I focus A LOT on staying tension free. A LOT !!!! Locking up and tensing up absolutely ruins my swing. I don't go to the extend of being a loose rubbery bowl of jello but I do work on staying in-posture and relaxed. Nice consistent grip pressure and freely unhinging wrists through the shot.

LOL -- I really don't know why I don't have dozens of them (specific drill) now that I think about it.

[coloradogolf72]

It's hard to tell from the camera angle, but it seems you "use up" your power at the top of the downswing, rather then at impact.

Here are a couple drills I would have you do.

1. Take a driver and grab it the opposite way, holding the head instead of the grip. Make a swing this way. You'll hear a "whoosh" sound at the most powerful part of the swing. Chances are you'll hear that sound near the top of the downswing. You want to hear it right at the bottom of the downswing.

2. The pause drill. This one is great and takes a lot of patience and practice. Take an 8 iron... tee the ball up fairly high. Make your normal backswing and pause at the top. Count to 3 and then make your downswing. This will help with rushing the downswing which is causing your "over the top" move from the start.

Some swing thoughts are, don't throw the club head out at the start of the downswing. Feel like you're bringing the grip down to the ground, bringing your right elbow towards your right hip. This will help get you more inside, rather than over the top.

Another great little drill is to set up a tee or mark about 6" away from your ball that is on an inside to out swingpath. Focus on swinging the club head through the ball towards that mark/tee. This will help get the path in a little better spot.

[Karamu]

Guys, thanks again for the input. I need to head out in a minute so it's just a quick post- I will respond in more detail soon. I doubt it's going to be today as I have a few things I need to take care of but will head to the range soon to try and work on the swing- now that I know where I am going wrong and some ideas about fixing it hopefully I can start to make some progress! As I said, I will try to get some better footage as well.

Cheers!

[artica]

Solid stuff here, I myself am stealing some of this to try for my own swing

[Reasonability]

Hey one more note:

Looking back - I see where I made lots of references to the grip....

My wording about the "hands" being too clockwise vs anti-clockwise.... just want to point out the grip is tricky business. Sometimes a golfer has the handle in reasonable shape with the left hand but the right is poorly positioned. Sometimes the left hand is the culprit. So stating (as I did) the "hands" can be too far this way or that was a bit misleading.

Once each hand is correct - THEN both hands and the handle can work as a very unitized and single unit. The wrists can easily and smoothly hinge going back and then unhinge in a very relaxed way through impact. Ideally at the top, the leading edge of the clubface is parallel to the lead forearm (and from down the line that lead arm runs right through the line through the shoulders and the shoulders have turned perpendicular to a stable spine as mentioned before). If the swing happens to be one where the club gets to ground-parallel at the top - which some do and some don't -- then the right elbow is more or less under the shaft and handle and the club is not pointing way right or left of the target.

So I wanted to "try" and be a little clearer about this grip business. Looking back I see where I sort of lumped the term "hands" being too far this way or that in terms of clockwise orientation on the handle. Well that's true but its important each hand be set up well so that both hands can then work as a unit, and THEN the wrists will operate with ease and the kind of marks being mentioned above can be easily hit at the top.

Sorry for any confusion - and hope this makes things actually easier as opposed to worse.

[Fore_Putt]

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[Karamu]

Haha Artica, spreading the love!

Good point about the grip Reasonability. I have my left hand with two and a bit knuckles showing so the crease between my thumb and finger is pointing at my right shoulder- this is what I've read in training books. I've also read that the same crease on the right hand should point further towards my neck- would you agree? I used to have a very "palmy" grip so have been working hard to get it much more in my fingers. I did notice one day at the range a week or so ago when I brought my right hand even further round (ie so the two crease are almost in line) it briefly helped my slice. That didn't continue...

I didn't have time to go to the range today but I did take a few swings in the back garden with my 7 iron and air flow balls. I was concentrating on keeping the head and spine lined up and pivoting the shoulders around this "axle". It kind of worked- I can see what you are talking about. I bent my knees a bit more than in the video above and it felt better.

Further updates to follow as soon as I can! Thanks again for the support- this is a fantastic forum, I'm glad I discovered it!

[Reasonability]

Yea, as you can see this whole grip thing is something some just naturally "do". For me it was a little bit of a journey and something I still have sometime go back and check. I try and get to this "ideal" posture and form a nice structure of the hands and arms at the top as well as at address. I "think" have that devil tamed pretty well but it took some exploring and reading and mirrors and practice to feel good about it. LOL - welcome to golf!!!!!

The heck of it is -- its the same "stuff" we read about every day, right? The difference is - now we go at it with a real purpose vs. gripping it and ripping it. (Wish I was one of these natural golfers -- no such luck here.)

[Karamu]

Lol, yes my mate who has been playing for years keeps telling me "it's your first season" when I get frustrated with poor shots!!

[Karamu]

Quick update. I played a round on Friday and concentrated on pivoting around the spine, keeping the right posture. While I still hit a few slices they generally weren't as wild as I had been doing previously! What Reasonability in particular has been describing is starting to make sense! My divot marks with the irons were much straighter as well. I think I need to find the bottom of my arc as Tom Watson describes as the divots were generally [i]before[/i] the ball, not after as they should- I subsequently was making a lot of shots with not very clean impact.

I am heading off on holiday for a couple of weeks (am typing this in an airport hotel) so there won't be many updates forthcoming for a while.

I just wanted to say a big thank you again for the support- I know which forum I will be coming to in the future when I have golf questions!

[Karamu]

Hi again,

Got to the driving range today- luckily my father in law is a fellow golf fan so we could sneak off and hit a few balls.

Took a video of a driver swing- I think I am still coming across but it seems to be better- I certainly wasn't slicing as much. Again, feedback is most gratefully sought:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZjKGXlT-T0

Cheers,

[rjm74x]

+1 on the comments regarding the grip.

The grip alone, if you play with it a little, can produce wide variations in your ball path. I recently learned this the hard way, going from a nasty pull-hook with a "natural feeling" strong grip, to being able to slice the ball two fairways over just by rotating my hands over the top with a weak grip.

The trick for me (and despite the swing flaws I know I have) was finding a happy medium and playing at the left side of the fairway, and letting a high (baby) fade take care of the rest.

Another quarter inch in each direction on the grip though, and I can replicate a monster hook/slice.

(watched the new video, and it might be the angle but it looks like you're a little outside-in on the downswing)