!!Please take a look as i need your help!!

[Medici999]

sometimes i do yes. i just feel very powerless on the way down.

[hoganfan924]

then it's evident to me from both the video and your description that you aren't getting any power from your pivot and not clearing your hips enough both on the backswing and downswing to create the space you need for your right elbow and arms. Try turning your right hip back more in the backswing (will feel like it's turning both behind you and a little toward the target) and fire the left through much more aggressively in the downswing and see how that works and feels. The left hip firing through should feel as if it is being initiated by your lower core muscles (abdomen) not your legs. The downswing really needs to be initiated by the lower core/trunk muscles, not the arms.

 

Good Luck

[JeffMann]

Hoganfan924

 

I am an admirer of your knowledge of the golf swing, but I think that your recommendation regarding an increased backswing hip turn makes no sense.

 

The main purpose of a backswing pivot motion is to allow the shoulders to turn sufficently (usually 90 degrees) via the biomechanical mechanism of re-orienting the lumbar vertebra so that they face rightwards. Medici 999 gets a very good shoulder rotation in his backswing. The disadvantge of an excessive hip rotation in the backswing is that the torso-swing can become loose and one can easily start to overswing. You can see that Tiger Woods limits his hip turn so that he can coil his mid-upper torso against the resistance of the lower body.

 

If you look at his video in slow-motion, you can see that his downswing dynamcis are slow. If he feels "powerless" in the downswing, then he needs to have a more aggressive/assertive downswing pivot motion that can drive the hands fast and smoothly down to the impact zone - and that means a slightly faster left hip clearing action and a a more assertive drive of the right shoulder down the right shoulder plane (RSP) line. If one drives one's torso assertively through the impact zone, then one should NOT have a felling of powerlessness. He gets into perfect downswing arm/clubshaft positions by having the correct sequencing of body movements - he only needs to get into those positions more assertively to eliminate any feeling of powerlessness.

 

Jeff.

[Swingtheclub]

Seriously if they guy who started this thread is not totally confused he should be.

 

 

I am going to make a strong suggestion. The one thing we agree on is that he has problems. I would suggest that he find a professional in his area and take some lessons.

 

if that is cost prohibitive, then you need to choose someone that has tried to help you message them privately and never look at this thread again.

 

This thread has become totally information overload for the student.

 

Medicii I feel for you bud I know its hard to decide what is right and what is wrong.

 

Good luck

[hoganfan924]

Hoganfan924

 

I am an admirer of your knowledge of the golf swing, but I think that your recommendation regarding an increased backswing hip turn makes no sense.

 

The main purpose of a backswing pivot motion is to allow the shoulders to turn sufficently (usually 90 degrees) via the biomechanical mechanism of re-orienting the lumbar vertebra so that they face rightwards. Medici 999 gets a very good shoulder rotation in his backswing. The disadvantge of an excessive hip rotation in the backswing is that the torso-swing can become loose and one can easily start to overswing. You can see that Tiger Woods limits his hip turn so that he can coil his mid-upper torso against the resistance of the lower body.

 

If you look at his video in slow-motion, you can see that his downswing dynamcis are slow. If he feels "powerless" in the downswing, then he needs to have a more aggressive/assertive downswing pivot motion that can drive the hands fast and smoothly down to the impact zone - and that means a slightly faster left hip clearing action and a a more assertive drive of the right shoulder down the right shoulder plane (RSP) line. If one drives one's torso assertively through the impact zone, then one should NOT have a felling of powerlessness. He gets into perfect downswing arm/clubshaft positions by having the correct sequencing of body movements - he only needs to get into those positions more assertively to eliminate any feeling of powerlessness.

 

Jeff.

 

Jeff,

 

In the spirit of what Ken wrote I'm not going to respond with any detail. Suffice to say we agree about the downswing pivot but disagree about the BS pivot. The idea of restricting BS pelvic pivot motion I think is one of the biggest mistakes of modern golf instruction. The X-factor concept was misinterpreted by most to their detriment. I think the BS pivot has more function than to just permit shoulder rotation. Subject for another thread I guess.

 

Same with your question about combining a 1PS backswing with a 2PS release. Hardy covers it in his books pretty well He considers them incompatible and I agree.

[JeffMann]

I am not a proponent of restricting the backswing hip movement and definitely not a believer in the X-factor. However, I believe that excessive hip rotation also has disadvantages. I think that one has to decide what is the optimum degree of hip rotation and provide reasons for one's choice. If you recommend a greater degree of backswing hip rotation for Medici999, I simply would like to understand the biomechanical reasons for your recommendation.

 

I am fully aware that Hardy believes that a OPS posture must be associated with a OPS release, but he doesn't provide incontrovertible biomechanical justifications. Tiger Woods is a very good example of a golfer who has a OPS posture for most of his shots, and who uses a OPS release for his short irons, but often uses a 2PS release when hitting woods. I have never understood why a 2PS release cannot be successfully employed if a golfer has a more bent-over posture and a left arm that is along the shoulder turn angle.

 

Jeff.

[jeffy]

II have never understood why a 2PS release cannot be successfully employed if a golfer has a more bent-over posture and a left arm that is along the shoulder turn angle.

 

Jeff.

 

Another straw man argument from Dr. Mann: such a combination is "successfully employed" every day on the PGA Tour, as every knowledgeable golf fan knows. However, Dr. Mann ignores what Hardy is talking about here: the two-plane release has all the squaring rotation take place in the impact zone; in a one-plane release, the squaring rotation takes place during the downswing, not at impact. Since the clubface rotates through a greater range in a flatter, one-plane swing, there is no advantage to using a flat "one-plane" swingplane with a two-plane release. In contrast, the upright, two-plane swingplane requires less rotation of the clubface throughout the swing. Therefore, it is the preferable swingplane for a two-plane release.

[hoganfan924]

I am not a proponent of restricting the backswing hip movement and definitely not a believer in the X-factor. However, I believe that excessive hip rotation also has disadvantages. I think that one has to decide what is the optimum degree of hip rotation and provide reasons for one's choice. If you recommend a greater degree of backswing hip rotation for Medici999, I simply would like to understand the biomechanical reasons for your recommendation.

 

I am fully aware that Hardy believes that a OPS posture must be associated with a OPS release, but he doesn't provide incontrovertible biomechanical justifications. Tiger Woods is a very good example of a golfer who has a OPS posture for most of his shots, and who uses a OPS release for his short irons, but often uses a 2PS release when hitting woods. I have never understood why a 2PS release cannot be successfully employed if a golfer has a more bent-over posture and a left arm that is along the shoulder turn angle.

 

Jeff.

 

That's exactly why Tiger has had his troubles hitting driver over the last few years. Looks like he's starting to figure that out though. The short answer is that a 1PS swing arc already induces face rotation through impact due to the relatively flat swing plane (moreso than a 2PS swing arc). Adding more face rotation by rolling the forearms equals maximum possible face rotation, a worst case scenario for consistently squaring the face, which is the single most important thing in a golf swing. Can a guy with world class timing and athletic ability who hits several hundred balls a day still play great golf that way, of course! But an average player has little chance. Not a biomechanical arguement, more like simple physics.

 

And I've never seen a player who had excessive hip rotation. For many players, attempting to restrict hip rotation can lead to the "verticalization of the upper thoracic spine" as I think you've put it before. Sort of a false shoulder turn to try and get what they think they should be getting. I think Slicefixer posted a couple of months ago that in his 23 years of teaching on a daily basis, he's taught exactly one player to restrict their hip turn. The BS hip turn also creates needed space for the right elbow and arm on the downswing, which is why I asked Medici if he often felt jammed up through impact.

[jeffy]

I am fully aware that Hardy believes that a OPS posture must be associated with a OPS release, but he doesn't provide incontrovertible biomechanical justifications. Tiger Woods is a very good example of a golfer who has a OPS posture for most of his shots, and who uses a OPS release for his short irons, but often uses a 2PS release when hitting woods.

 

Is that why Tiger is such a good iron player but sprays his driver?

 

Hardy's belief is that a swing where the arms swing around the body (a prerequisite for a one-plane release) can become too shallow to be effective with an upright posture. Just try it and see what kind of accuracy and distance you can generate. A couple of tour players get a little too upright from time-to-time for a one-plane swingplane (Chad Campbell and Corey Pavin), but they are the exceptions.

[jeffy]

hi there guys.

this is a video from today, its annoying me how flat im getting and i cant seem to get more upright.

any help is most appreciated.

thanks

 

My Swing!

 

What a great backswing! Is this some kind of joke? You are not too flat at all for a one-planer. You have gotten very sound advice from hoganfan and Jeff Mann and some others regarding this. You could put that backswing in a Jim Hardy textbook. I think changing your downswing will be more a fruitful road than trying to change your backswing. The advice to try to create a more dynamic rotation is spot on. But I think you need to get into your left leg more for this to be effective.

 

I think a face-on view might be very helpful. I was very surprised to see your right foot glued to the ground through impact: this holds your swing center back and can create a swing path that is too shallow and under the plane, resulting in pushes and hooks. This is one of the reasons why the "stack & tilters", who also use a flat armswing, favor keeping the weight left. Study Hogan, the ultimate flat swinger: he is moving into his left leg in the transition; it almost looks like he is doing it during the backswing:

 

 

Are you familiar with Gary Player's "walk through"? He had a flat one-plane swing and played his best when he moved so strongly towards the target in the downswing that he wound up taking a step, "walking through" the shot. That might not be a bad drill for you: hit balls while lifting the right foot DURING the downswing.

 

As hayam says, Dana can be helpful here. Best of luck, you have a great foundation.

[Medici999]

thanks, been away for a week. cant wait to practise.

[Medici999]

i will have a face on video tonight and another video down the line. cheers

[markpetrie]

You have a pretty good swing - see a professional, and you will be sorted.

 

Good luck

[Swingtheclub]

You know its funny, I read where several of you do not agree with what they came up with called the X factor.

 

Now from a pure scientific standpoint I could not prove it or disprove it.

 

At the same time every long hitter that had any accuracy I have been around had it. That big shoulder turn and almost restricted hip turn.

 

As my shoulder turn got shorter I tried increasing my hip rotation, and lost my golf swing completley .

 

I find it interesting that I see it everyday at the golf course and you guys dismiss it.

 

Hogan made a little larger than normal hip turn but had a huge shoulder turn I see the X factor in his swing.

 

Just very interesting that you guys do not believe it exist.

[hoganfan924]

You know its funny, I read where several of you do not agree with what they came up with called the X factor.

 

Now from a pure scientific standpoint I could not prove it or disprove it.

 

At the same time every long hitter that had any accuracy I have been around had it. That big shoulder turn and almost restricted hip turn.

 

As my shoulder turn got shorter I tried increasing my hip rotation, and lost my golf swing completley .

 

I find it interesting that I see it everyday at the golf course and you guys dismiss it.

 

Hogan made a little larger than normal hip turn but had a huge shoulder turn I see the X factor in his swing.

 

Just very interesting that you guys do not believe it exist.

 

Ken,

 

I am a believer in X-factor, Dynamic X-factor that's created by initiating the downswing with lower core rotation, not the X-factor that's created by restricting hip turn. What I meant in my previous post is that many people I believe misunderstood that you create power not by restricting the pelvic turn but by maximizing the differential between the pelvis and shoulders at the start of the downswing. It's a subtle difference but I think an extremely important one. I've seen way too many players get caught up in trying to restrict hip turn and generating no power as a result. There is a biomechanical limit to how much you can torque up the spine and it varies a bit depending on each person's anatomy but here's the extreme example of what I've seen many times from players attempting to restrict hip/pelvic turn in the backswing:

 

15 or 20 degrees of hip turn

60 or 70 degrees of shoulder turn (but great X-factor!)

Then because the backswing is so short with that restricted shoulder turn, they break down the left elbow in order to complete their false backswing

 

Typical results:

 

Casting/flipping

No space for the right elbow in the downswing - a stuck position

Blocking

No power

 

I think McLean is partially to blame because his first publishing of the X-factor didn't clarify this. To his credit, he later issued an article in Golf Digest (as I recall a couple of years ago) about how restricting hip turn was not the way to achieve X-factor. This is also one of the misleading things in 5 lessons. Hogan stressed restricting hip turn in the book but he had a lot of hip turn. He tightened up his action from his earlier days and that might have felt more restricted to him, but by today's players standards, he had as much pelvic rotation as any player today.

 

Hope that's all clear.

[Medici999]

what should the left leg be like at impact?

cheers