See and Feel the inside Move the Outside

[hayam]

Appreciate the answers,

So Lake, what does Pivot less mean? total arm swing?

 

The absence of secondary axis tilt , Total rotation and "vertical spine" , are Myth or Truth?

[Lake]

Appreciate the answers,

So Lake, what does Pivot less mean? total arm swing?

This just means that for short strokes that don't pivot it is required that hands take a circle path....think Seve!!

The absence of secondary axis tilt , Total rotation and "vertical spine" , are Myth or Truth?

With circle path delivery you do not need to have a secondary axis tilt unless you wanted to effect trajectory ie- tee shots, etc....so truth!!

 

Slice, I would of made it down to the bonfire but I just rolled in from the 31st Annual Middle Tennessee Star Wars Convention :rolleyes:

 

Hayam,

 

The Circle Path Delivery is what the hands are doing in the downsing from top/end of the stroke. This component is seen mainly in strokes that use pivot controlled hands in conjunction with a 10-24-F release. The player's hands/clubshaft/clubhead resemble a turning wheel rim motion toward and on past the ball. There are several other feels a player might experience in 1st paragraph 7-23. This procedure is restricted to 3-barrel swinging (2,3,4). Due to the emphasis on the pivot pulling the hands & club through impact, players will have a very reliable release position at the same point in relation to their body. However, this does place a heavy burden on the body to maintain its rotating duties in order to resist quitting which would likely cause club throwaway.

 

Hope this helps!!

 

Lake

 

ps...that's me in the jabba the hut costume....don't hate the playa, hate the game!!!

[Scratch2Plus]

Appreciate the answers,

So Lake, what does Pivot less mean? total arm swing?

This just means that for short strokes that don't pivot it is required that hands take a circle path....think Seve!!

The absence of secondary axis tilt , Total rotation and "vertical spine" , are Myth or Truth?

With circle path delivery you do not need to have a secondary axis tilt unless you wanted to effect trajectory ie- tee shots, etc....so truth!!

 

Slice, I would of made it down to the bonfire but I just rolled in from the 31st Annual Middle Tennessee Star Wars Convention :rolleyes:

 

Hayam,

 

The Circle Path Delivery is what the hands are doing in the downsing from top/end of the stroke. This component is seen mainly in strokes that use pivot controlled hands in conjunction with a 10-24-F release. The player's hands/clubshaft/clubhead resemble a turning wheel rim motion toward and on past the ball. There are several other feels a player might experience in 1st paragraph 7-23. This procedure is restricted to 3-barrel swinging (2,3,4). Due to the emphasis on the pivot pulling the hands & club through impact, players will have a very reliable release position at the same point in relation to their body. However, this does place a heavy burden on the body to maintain its rotating duties in order to resist quitting which would likely cause club throwaway.

 

Hope this helps!!

 

Lake

 

ps...that's me in the jabba the hut costume....don't hate the playa, hate the game!!!

 

 

Lake<<<<<<<<<<<<< da P.I.M.P!!!!!!!! hahahaa

[slicefixer]

Appreciate the answers,

So Lake, what does Pivot less mean? total arm swing?

This just means that for short strokes that don't pivot it is required that hands take a circle path....think Seve!!

The absence of secondary axis tilt , Total rotation and "vertical spine" , are Myth or Truth?

With circle path delivery you do not need to have a secondary axis tilt unless you wanted to effect trajectory ie- tee shots, etc....so truth!!

 

Slice, I would of made it down to the bonfire but I just rolled in from the 31st Annual Middle Tennessee Star Wars Convention :rolleyes:

 

Hayam,

 

The Circle Path Delivery is what the hands are doing in the downsing from top/end of the stroke. This component is seen mainly in strokes that use pivot controlled hands in conjunction with a 10-24-F release. The player's hands/clubshaft/clubhead resemble a turning wheel rim motion toward and on past the ball. There are several other feels a player might experience in 1st paragraph 7-23. This procedure is restricted to 3-barrel swinging (2,3,4). Due to the emphasis on the pivot pulling the hands & club through impact, players will have a very reliable release position at the same point in relation to their body. However, this does place a heavy burden on the body to maintain its rotating duties in order to resist quitting which would likely cause club throwaway.

 

Hope this helps!!

 

Lake

 

ps...that's me in the jabba the hut costume....don't hate the playa, hate the game!!!

 

 

Lake<<<<<<<<<<<<< da P.I.M.P!!!!!!!! hahahaa

 

 

LOL......."your a peach hon"......LOL

 

 

 

 

and..........

 

"However, this does place a heavy burden on the body to maintain its rotating duties in order to resist quitting which would likely cause club throwaway."

 

You can say that again.......well, I actully just did sorta'........bottom line, IF you have a pivot based golf swing that hits great shots when utilized properly, and ya' slow down, "fore left" is normally the call........although, to miss it to the left to any real consequence isn't really possible as you'd have to basically "unplug the pivot" well before impact to do it...........

[cleveland_guy]

I have experimented with many ways of conveying this to students. I find that if you try to make the right shoulder (right handed golfer) go down at the toes on your right foot, you cant make that move without bumping and starting to clear the hips. Also your spine will automatically tilt a little more to the right as you do it. This is in my opinion is where most people are going wrong in the golf swing, it may start from some bad set-up and take-away problems but this is the biggest difference in poor strikers and good strikers. I think the most similar feeling thing to this proper right shoulder move is like skimming a stone on the water its got to feel more underhanded then overhanded.

[hayam]

Lake, don't quite sync from what i know... time for a checkup hope u dont mind..... Swinging in some form IS throwaway?

 

Circle delivery Path = 24 F ... if I remember off the back of my head.. Flip or snap release?... is that compatible? ...And... PIVOTLESS stroke...what exactly that meant?

 

What I don't really agree, circle , Wide pulley,,, sweep release.... isn't it? ... Not very well versed in it but thats what I understood. and that includes the size of the pulley ... Machine Golfer really made me understood a lot in the area of Mix n' Match.

[rankoutsider]

Hey Guys: I used to bump my hips, but because my swing wasn't overly steep, I would hit a lot of thin shots (no need to shallow it out coming into the ball, but that move really shallowed me out anyway). i would flush my irons off the tee, but would either pick my iron shots off the fairway or thin them.

 

I think everybody should experiment with this at the range. Get to the top of the backswing and really feel the front hip come more or less straight left (for a RH) as the club comes through. it works great for me, and helps me to release the club consistently, rather than too much down the line.

 

Rank

[KevCarter]

Hey Guys: I used to bump my hips, but because my swing wasn't overly steep, I would hit a lot of thin shots (no need to shallow it out coming into the ball, but that move really shallowed me out anyway). i would flush my irons off the tee, but would either pick my iron shots off the fairway or thin them.

 

I think everybody should experiment with this at the range. Get to the top of the backswing and really feel the front hip come more or less straight left (for a RH) as the club comes through. it works great for me, and helps me to release the club consistently, rather than too much down the line.

 

Rank

 

Rank,

 

I'm so mad there is snow on the ground and I can't experiment with this stuff!

 

To accomplish this, do you have to make sure more weight stays over the left side in the backswing, rather than a larger transfer to the right as in the traditional swing?

 

Kevin

[rankoutsider]

Hey Guys: I used to bump my hips, but because my swing wasn't overly steep, I would hit a lot of thin shots (no need to shallow it out coming into the ball, but that move really shallowed me out anyway). i would flush my irons off the tee, but would either pick my iron shots off the fairway or thin them.

 

I think everybody should experiment with this at the range. Get to the top of the backswing and really feel the front hip come more or less straight left (for a RH) as the club comes through. it works great for me, and helps me to release the club consistently, rather than too much down the line.

 

Rank

 

Rank,

 

I'm so mad there is snow on the ground and I can't experiment with this stuff!

 

To accomplish this, do you have to make sure more weight stays over the left side in the backswing, rather than a larger transfer to the right as in the traditional swing?

 

Kevin

 

 

I'm not sure. I keep my weight pretty solidly on my front foot and pivot around that, especially with my irons. I do not transfer a lot of weight back and forward, or if I do (and this might be a bit confusing) i really only feel it on my back foot for a brief time right at the top of my backswing.

 

the move with the hip bump, for me, is more about how high the club is when you get to the top. too steep and you are more or less forced to bump it. I know there is a post where slice talked about this a bit, and i don't want to "blame" him for my botch of it, but here it goes.

 

I have a feeling that you can really only use your "power" when the club gets into a certain relationship with your body on the throughswing. if you swing it steeply, you have to "wait" until the club gets onto a shallower plane before you can add anything (with your body's rotation) to its momentum. If you bump your hips while you are waiting, so be it; but the point is that you have to do something while your club drops, and if you are really high, then you have to wait a tad longer. if you get your club into a different position at the top (a bit lower, and probably a bit shorter as well-- at least it is the case for me) then you can swing without the bump, since you do not have as long to wait for the shaft to get on the plane where you can actually bring it through with some power. for this kind of swing, my feeling is that you can really just turn your hip back and let the club come through. in fact, one of the swing thoughts i am experimenting with is just this: get to the top and don't let the front hip go "forward" (or bump) as the club comes through. then just see how solidly you hit it.

 

or you can do it the other way as well: ingrain that move if you think it is solid, and then work backwards to find a good position at the top and a swing sequencing pattern, that works with that swing thought.

 

the bottom line, though, is that if you hit a lot of thin shots, you need to experiment with a tighter hip turn back tot he ball, since it might well be the move that works for you.

[KevCarter]

Hey Guys: I used to bump my hips, but because my swing wasn't overly steep, I would hit a lot of thin shots (no need to shallow it out coming into the ball, but that move really shallowed me out anyway). i would flush my irons off the tee, but would either pick my iron shots off the fairway or thin them.

 

I think everybody should experiment with this at the range. Get to the top of the backswing and really feel the front hip come more or less straight left (for a RH) as the club comes through. it works great for me, and helps me to release the club consistently, rather than too much down the line.

 

Rank

 

Rank,

 

I'm so mad there is snow on the ground and I can't experiment with this stuff!

 

To accomplish this, do you have to make sure more weight stays over the left side in the backswing, rather than a larger transfer to the right as in the traditional swing?

 

Kevin

 

 

I'm not sure. I keep my weight pretty solidly on my front foot and pivot around that, especially with my irons. I do not transfer a lot of weight back and forward, or if I do (and this might be a bit confusing) i really only feel it on my back foot for a brief time right at the top of my backswing.

 

the move with the hip bump, for me, is more about how high the club is when you get to the top. too steep and you are more or less forced to bump it. I know there is a post where slice talked about this a bit, and i don't want to "blame" him for my botch of it, but here it goes.

 

I have a feeling that you can really only use your "power" when the club gets into a certain relationship with your body on the throughswing. if you swing it steeply, you have to "wait" until the club gets onto a shallower plane before you can add anything (with your body's rotation) to its momentum. If you bump your hips while you are waiting, so be it; but the point is that you have to do something while your club drops, and if you are really high, then you have to wait a tad longer. if you get your club into a different position at the top (a bit lower, and probably a bit shorter as well-- at least it is the case for me) then you can swing without the bump, since you do not have as long to wait for the shaft to get on the plane where you can actually bring it through with some power. for this kind of swing, my feeling is that you can really just turn your hip back and let the club come through. in fact, one of the swing thoughts i am experimenting with is just this: get to the top and don't let the front hip go "forward" (or bump) as the club comes through. then just see how solidly you hit it.

 

or you can do it the other way as well: ingrain that move if you think it is solid, and then work backwards to find a good position at the top and a swing sequencing pattern, that works with that swing thought.

 

the bottom line, though, is that if you hit a lot of thin shots, you need to experiment with a tighter hip turn back tot he ball, since it might well be the move that works for you.

 

Rank,

 

I agree with your thoughts, just want to confirm that we are all on the same page. I didn't play much golf last year, but the start of S&T really intrigued me. We didn't really know much about it at first, other than the fact that more weight stays on the front foot going back. In doing Slices version of 9 to 3 I get the same feeling as I did then. I NEVER hit the ball better than when I was minimizing this weight shift and staying more over my left side, even though I really had no idea what I was trying to accomplish. The feeling I had, is that in doing so the bump wasn't needed and I could just turn...

 

Thanks for the great explanation in confirming what I "THINK" is going on. MELT SNOW!!!

 

Kevin

[dlygrisse]

For those of you familiar with Manzella's Coke Machine Drill, would this create too much of a bump? Or just the small amount of axis tilt that is being talked about? My problem is that I get a little too steep and need to learn to shallow out the swing on a more consistant basis. Wondering if I should try to bump more and really try to get shallow, and then back it off some after I get the feel of it?

[glcoach]

For those of you familiar with Manzella's Coke Machine Drill, would this create too much of a bump? Or just the small amount of axis tilt that is being talked about? My problem is that I get a little too steep and need to learn to shallow out the swing on a more consistant basis. Wondering if I should try to bump more and really try to get shallow, and then back it off some after I get the feel of it?

 

IMO, no, because I don't think he is advocating a huge lateral bump. I think it is more of a bump/turn that gets you to swing left more.

 

Think more Charlie Howell and less Joe Durant.

[Lake]

Lake, don't quite sync from what i know... time for a checkup hope u dont mind..... Swinging in some form IS throwaway?

Right Arm Swinging can produce a flat left wrist at impact/seperation but bent immediately after....I'm not talking about that beauty!! Swingers are however dependent on their skill at manipulating CF.

Circle delivery Path = 24 F ... if I remember off the back of my head.. Flip or snap release?... is that compatible? ...And... PIVOTLESS stroke...what exactly that meant?

Pivotless means no rotation of components around their respective centers. The F release is very compatitlble with circle delivery path and believe it or not was the recommended swinging pattern in the 5th ed. Circle Delivery is just one big pulley and it is in reference to the hands not the clubhead which looks more eliptical than circular from caddy view. Grab your hula-hoop, put it behind your neck like a big necklace and grip it like a golf club and take a ride on the big ole' wheel....then go get your javelin and from the top of your backswing drive it straight down into the ground at your aiming point....straight line delivery path

What I don't really agree, circle , Wide pulley,,, sweep release.... isn't it? ... Not very well versed in it but thats what I understood. and that includes the size of the pulley ... Machine Golfer really made me understood a lot in the area of Mix n' Match.

Look at Diane's pics under 10-23...this only is in reference to the hand path...not release. 10-24-F uses a shoulder turn throw which is a sharp initial shoulder turn pinning the left arm on the body and only throws it off when the pivot subsides. This initial shoulder turn against the #4 acc can add a lot of pivot/accumulator/clubhead lag.

[hayam]

Lake...

Think you meant 2 H ... last paragraph.

[Lake]

Lake...

Think you meant 2 H ... last paragraph.

 

I had to pull out the 6th Edition...Joe Daniels yanked that out of the 7th!!! Yeap...Pivot controlled hands with a shoulder turn takeaway with an emphasis on the big muscles instead of the hands leads to "Arc of Approach" & Circle path delivery.

[hayam]

Frankly this delivery path is pretty confusing stuffs.

 

I would rather work with release points and the rate the elbow straightens. Makes better sense.

[KevCarter]

Frankly this delivery path is pretty confusing stuffs.

 

I would rather work with release points and the rate the elbow straightens. Makes better sense.

 

Hi Hayam,

 

Which delivery path is confusing, the main post of the thread, or someone else's post? Sorry if I fell behind a little bit.

 

Kevin

[hayam]

Its in the TGM book. basically talking about hand path. shoulder turn = will be more circular, but elbow straightening without shoulder turn more straight arc.. etc ....

 

choice of plane. plane shift plane angle, elbow locations. release points, power package, grips, pulley size will change all the compatible components and thus hand path. this hand path is more of an effect rather than cause... so...

[KevCarter]

Its in the TGM book. basically talking about hand path. shoulder turn = will be more circular, but elbow straightening without shoulder turn more straight arc.. etc ....

 

choice of plane. plane shift plane angle, elbow locations. release points, power package, grips, pulley size will change all the compatible components and thus hand path. this hand path is more of an effect rather than cause... so...

 

Thanks Man, my book should arrive this week...

 

Kevin

[hoganfan924]

Its in the TGM book. basically talking about hand path. shoulder turn = will be more circular, but elbow straightening without shoulder turn more straight arc.. etc ....

 

choice of plane. plane shift plane angle, elbow locations. release points, power package, grips, pulley size will change all the compatible components and thus hand path. this hand path is more of an effect rather than cause... so...

 

Thanks Man, my book should arrive this week...

 

Kevin

 

Better take a couple of aspirin before reading it or your head might explode! hehehe

 

I think Lake and Hayam are just trying to figure out Slicefixer's preferred pattern according to the 24 TGM components that his good players use.

 

Personally, I'd like to thank Lake and Hayam for making an effort on this board to educate others about TGM, rather than just using it to try to make themselves look smart. I think Lake should write "TGM for Dummies," lord knows I need it!

[KevCarter]

Its in the TGM book. basically talking about hand path. shoulder turn = will be more circular, but elbow straightening without shoulder turn more straight arc.. etc ....

 

choice of plane. plane shift plane angle, elbow locations. release points, power package, grips, pulley size will change all the compatible components and thus hand path. this hand path is more of an effect rather than cause... so...

 

Thanks Man, my book should arrive this week...

 

Kevin

 

Better take a couple of aspirin before reading it or your head might explode! hehehe

 

I think Lake and Hayam are just trying to figure out Slicefixer's preferred pattern according to the 24 TGM components that his good players use.

 

Personally, I'd like to thank Lake and Hayam for making an effort on this board to educate others about TGM, rather than just using it to try to make themselves look smart.

 

HoganFan,

 

I agree. Slice has made it clear to me that a good teacher should try to learn as much about the swing as we can from EVERYBODY. Both Lake and Hayam have been VERY helpful to me in trying to understand TGM, I'm just getting started, and I find it really exciting!

 

There is some great info out there, just need to be pointed in the proper direction, and sort it out with the help of these very knowledgeable golf instructors...

 

And yes, the bottle of advil is ready. :rolleyes:

 

Kevin

[KevCarter]

I think Lake should write "TGM for Dummies," lord knows I need it!

 

I just saw your edit. I told Lake the EXACT same thing this morning!

 

Kevin

[dlygrisse]

Its in the TGM book. basically talking about hand path. shoulder turn = will be more circular, but elbow straightening without shoulder turn more straight arc.. etc ....

 

choice of plane. plane shift plane angle, elbow locations. release points, power package, grips, pulley size will change all the compatible components and thus hand path. this hand path is more of an effect rather than cause... so...

 

Thanks Man, my book should arrive this week...

 

Kevin

 

Better take a couple of aspirin before reading it or your head might explode! hehehe

 

I think Lake and Hayam are just trying to figure out Slicefixer's preferred pattern according to the 24 TGM components that his good players use.

 

Personally, I'd like to thank Lake and Hayam for making an effort on this board to educate others about TGM, rather than just using it to try to make themselves look smart. I think Lake should write "TGM for Dummies," lord knows I need it!

 

Bought a copy of TGM years ago, have never been able decipher the "code" of how to use it. I do like the pictures of the woman in the skirt with the bufont hairdo though. For those of you who are smart enough to use the book, how do you get started? Do you start with deciding to use a single, double or triple barrel and go from there? HEEEEEEEEELP!!!

[Kerry_Bunker]

"I think Lake should write "TGM for Dummies," lord knows I need it" !

 

I agree that if anyone could write this book, it would be Lake, Hoganfan.

 

For all the love that Slicefixer has earned on GolfWRX from those that know from first hand experience I can say that Lake is also the real deal.

 

If I had one, I would fly a hot air balloon with his name on it !!

[KevCarter]

Its in the TGM book. basically talking about hand path. shoulder turn = will be more circular, but elbow straightening without shoulder turn more straight arc.. etc ....

 

choice of plane. plane shift plane angle, elbow locations. release points, power package, grips, pulley size will change all the compatible components and thus hand path. this hand path is more of an effect rather than cause... so...

 

Thanks Man, my book should arrive this week...

 

Kevin

 

Better take a couple of aspirin before reading it or your head might explode! hehehe

 

I think Lake and Hayam are just trying to figure out Slicefixer's preferred pattern according to the 24 TGM components that his good players use.

 

Personally, I'd like to thank Lake and Hayam for making an effort on this board to educate others about TGM, rather than just using it to try to make themselves look smart. I think Lake should write "TGM for Dummies," lord knows I need it!

 

Bought a copy of TGM years ago, have never been able decipher the "code" of how to use it. I do like the pictures of the woman in the skirt with the bufont hairdo though. For those of you who are smart enough to use the book, how do you get started? Do you start with deciding to use a single, double or triple barrel and go from there? HEEEEEEEEELP!!!

 

My copy should be here this week, and I know I will struggle to get on track. We'll start our own study group, and figure it out together!

 

Kevin

[Lake]

Frankly this delivery path is pretty confusing stuffs.

 

I would rather work with release points and the rate the elbow straightens. Makes better sense.

 

 

Then we need to look at what is triggering the release:

Hands

Right Arm

Shoulder Turn

Delivery Path

Wrist

 

I like the dynamics involved with a (shoulder turn throw) sharp change in direction of the shoulders that sets up my left arm for a blast-off and a sequenced release w/ dual horizontal hinging. With this pattern I choose to use standard shoulder turn(flat back-on plane down) so my main focus is to get the right shoulder going down & out on the turned shoulder plane for a single shift. I'm happy with a random sweep release and as long as keep my right hand palm up to the plane while my left wrist uncocks(wrist throw). I find pitch elbow position w/o worrying about it. I look at a lot of DL3 swings for this style :rolleyes:

 

It's fun for me to try out different patterns so that I can understand what makes them tick ;)

[hayam]

oh boy.. this is becomming a tgm discussion hehe...

[Lake]

oh boy.. this is becomming a tgm discussion hehe...

 

A golf swing discussion my friend....I could of said it like this:

 

I really like a dynamic pivot that starts from the ground up...when I engage my shoulders from the top of my swing I like to feel my left arm get pinned against my chest and the golf club to feel like an arrow getting drawn out of a quiver. Initially, I direct the right shoulder motion downward ,outward,& forward on a 3-dimensional line and once that gets the fly-wheel spinning in the right direction I monitor the sweetspot lagging and dragging through my right hand index finger. As my my hips & trunk near their finish lines and begin their pre-impact decelerations I let CF uncock my left wrist while my right hand stays palm up....waiting in the shadow is my left arm like an F-16 in a rolling take-off....as the clubhead rounds turn 2 at Talladega all bets are off and the final pieces to the cracking-whip unleash with a blast off of the left arm and a roll of the left hand into a flat, level, and vertical position all the way to full extension like the ball wasn't even there....even after the smash of impact I continue to drive down & out to low-point and let the pivot bring the clubhead back, up & in :rolleyes:

[KevCarter]

oh boy.. this is becomming a tgm discussion hehe...

 

A golf swing discussion my friend....I could of said it like this:

 

I really like a dynamic pivot that starts from the ground up...when I engage my shoulders from the top of my swing I like to feel my left arm get pinned against my chest and the golf club to feel like an arrow getting drawn out of a quiver. Initially, I direct the right shoulder motion downward ,outward,& forward on a 3-dimensional line and once that gets the fly-wheel spinning in the right direction I monitor the sweetspot lagging and dragging through my right hand index finger. As my my hips & trunk near their finish lines and begin their pre-impact decelerations I let CF uncock my left wrist while my right hand stays palm up....waiting in the shadow is my left arm like an F-16 in a rolling take-off....as the clubhead rounds turn 2 at Talladega all bets are off and the final pieces to the cracking-whip unleash with a blast off of the left arm and a roll of the left hand into a flat, level, and vertical position all the way to full extension like the ball wasn't even there....even after the smash of impact I continue to drive down & out to low-point and let the pivot bring the clubhead back, up & in :rofl:

 

You are slipping, I almost understood that! :rolleyes: ;) :D

 

Kevin

[beachgrovejunior]

oh boy.. this is becomming a tgm discussion hehe...

 

A golf swing discussion my friend....I could of said it like this:

 

I really like a dynamic pivot that starts from the ground up...when I engage my shoulders from the top of my swing I like to feel my left arm get pinned against my chest and the golf club to feel like an arrow getting drawn out of a quiver. Initially, I direct the right shoulder motion downward ,outward,& forward on a 3-dimensional line and once that gets the fly-wheel spinning in the right direction I monitor the sweetspot lagging and dragging through my right hand index finger. As my my hips & trunk near their finish lines and begin their pre-impact decelerations I let CF uncock my left wrist while my right hand stays palm up....waiting in the shadow is my left arm like an F-16 in a rolling take-off....as the clubhead rounds turn 2 at Talladega all bets are off and the final pieces to the cracking-whip unleash with a blast off of the left arm and a roll of the left hand into a flat, level, and vertical position all the way to full extension like the ball wasn't even there....even after the smash of impact I continue to drive down & out to low-point and let the pivot bring the clubhead back, up & in ;)

That is one of the greatest posts ever on this forum :rolleyes: