See and Feel the inside Move the Outside

[KOC]

Yes....TGM discussion from the original topic of “See and Feel the inside Move the Outside” by Mike Herbron...I only have his other book "Golf Swing Secrets and Lies, Six Timeless Lessons" in which there is a chapter devoted to TGM and credited Mr. Homer Kelly.

 

As regard to Slicefixer preferred pattern, would love to see TGM experts to have a full list.

[slicefixer]

Yes....TGM discussion from the original topic of “See and Feel the inside Move the Outside” by Mike Herbron...I only have his other book "Golf Swing Secrets and Lies, Six Timeless Lessons" in which there is a chapter devoted to TGM and credited Mr. Homer Kelly.

 

As regard to Slicefixer preferred pattern, would love to see TGM experts to have a full list.

 

 

I'd like to see it too........hehehehe....... :rolleyes:

[hayam]

Wow hehe, looks like you got yourself a super swing.

 

That sound like the swing pattern in chapter 12 ...

 

 

Actually right shoulder down plane is simply enough Pivot participation and axis tilt . But I think it have to do with the choice of Plane , and plane shift. The secret of TGM is to know how much, and how to use it. How part separates Novice like me to Gurus. I only know how to quote it ^^.

 

NOW.. the beauty about Morad, SF pattern, is that once you got the setup angles correct. Very little need to let that shoulder go "down" , Just turn turn... Thats how we get consistencies because there is very little lateral shifts.

 

AND if you read stan utley short game manual.. its the same.. Put it to a hackers hand.. " bye bye " hehe..

[KOC]

Wow hehe, looks like you got yourself a super swing.

 

That sound like the swing pattern in chapter 12 ...

 

 

Actually right shoulder down plane is simply enough Pivot participation and axis tilt . But I think it have to do with the choice of Plane , and plane shift. The secret of TGM is to know how much, and how to use it. How part separates Novice like me to Gurus. I only know how to quote it ^^.

 

NOW.. the beauty about Morad, SF pattern, is that once you got the setup angles correct. Very little need to let that shoulder go "down" , Just turn turn... Thats how we get consistencies because there is very little lateral shifts.

 

AND if you read stan utley short game manual.. its the same.. Put it to a hackers hand.. " bye bye " hehe..

 

Yes Sir! I reported to SF before, when i tried to get the right shoulder down plane, it push to the right....and if i have all setup angles correct, i just TURN & TURN...great shot!

[Lake]

NOW.. the beauty about Morad, SF pattern, is that once you got the setup angles correct. Very little need to let that shoulder go "down" , Just turn turn... Thats how we get consistencies because there is very little lateral shifts.

 

The right shoulder goes down, out, & forward on all good downswings.....PERIOD!!! What your saying is you prefer a shoulder turn that rotates perpindicular to the spine in the backswing and downswing....and I like that one too :rolleyes: Need to know them all in my business!

[Lake]

That is one of the greatest posts ever on this forum :rolleyes:

 

Thanks Beach..... ;) Wish I was on the beach... "With my toes in the water...a@@ in the sand..not a worry in the world...and a cold beer in my hand" Zac Brown Band- Toes (my favorite song)!!!

[hayam]

NOW.. the beauty about Morad, SF pattern, is that once you got the setup angles correct. Very little need to let that shoulder go "down" , Just turn turn... Thats how we get consistencies because there is very little lateral shifts.

 

The right shoulder goes down, out, & forward on all good downswings.....PERIOD!!! What your saying is you prefer a shoulder turn that rotates perpindicular to the spine in the backswing and downswing....and I like that one too :rolleyes: Need to know them all in my business!

 

In theory.. correct .. But Feel is different to achieve it. I say it totally depends. There is no such thing as One feel fits all patterns and people.

 

A different choice of plane angle , Acc3 will have a different type of start down. With elbow plane and rotated shoulder turn , its fine and you NEED to start turning the hip left as early as the weight shift. like what hogan does.

 

Depending on the golfer. his current pattern he could feel the pattern is very tilty/shifty or very "flat" and rotated. I feel you must "get into the head" of the player first before telling the remedy. AND.... there are different pattern in the MORAD that require you to feel different things on the right side hehe..I say it again what i know... There are sub patterns in MORADS and S&T is only one of them and the most Shifty one and HIGH trajectory ones. I have very tough time with that pattern , more of a CP/Inline guy( I guess) hehe. And I took time to find the right one that fits me .. thanks teacher(s) ! So.. u guys are talking about different things in this forum all these while but actually talking about the same thing..The same thing but the different thing.. quite funny actually because there is different patterns.

 

And I agree 100% that in the naked eyes. the right side need to look as lateral as possible but not necessary what the player feel .

[hayam]

Oh and lake.. the right shoulder is Back and Down.. ? ...

[Lake]

In theory.. correct .. But Feel is different to achieve it. I say it totally depends. There is no such thing as One feel fits all patterns and people.

Boy...when did we start talking about feel???? I don't care if your feeling your hemroid twinge as long as that right shoulder is starting down on plane in the downswing...you can take your shoulders back flat, on-plane, perp to spine, or like happy gilmore....you can tee it up 2" outside the tip of your toes or hit drivers off your knees. Matter of fact the plane will change 14 times if you use all of your clubs and that is only if you play from flat lies all day. Education of the right shoulder motion in the downswing is HUGE

 

A different choice of plane angle , Acc3 will have a different type of start down. With elbow plane and rotated shoulder turn , its fine and you NEED to start turning the hip left as early as the weight shift. like what hogan does.

Woooaahhh....left hip is your key...what happens if the right shoulder goes too much out and the right forearm is pointing at the ball washer at p-6????...WIPE

Mr. Hogan's right shoulder went down, out, & forward with a very on-plane right forearm.

 

Depending on the golfer. his current pattern he could feel the pattern is very tilty/shifty or very "flat" and rotated. I feel you must "get into the head" of the player first before telling the remedy.

I like to give them options...you can hit short & crooked or you can hit it long & straight:)

 

I get your point but the fact is most people have their right shoulder move too much outward from Top...better players tend to move their right shoulder down too much when they miss...and the best players have the perfect blend. A good drill is to just place a club between your arms and make sure the part of the club sticking out on the right side nearest your right shoulder is heading in the direction of the golf ball in the downswing!!!! Having fun Hayam..thanks for the chin-wagging :rolleyes:

[Lake]

Oh and lake.. the right shoulder is Back and Down.. ? ...

 

You take the right shoulder Back on the downswing....OUCH....no it goes back,up, & in during the backswing....down, out, & forward in the downswing...unless your Steve Elkington in that S&T youtube video...LOL :rolleyes: I've seen your swing pard and your right shoulder goes down, out, & forward very nicely ;)

[hayam]

hehe...Understand what you meant.. but since you don't want to talk about feel.

 

7-15. HIP ACTION The Hip Action Category is included to separate

the "motion" of the Hips from any work they may accomplish.

The work the Hip Action does, is to lead and pull the Shoulders back and

down in varying combinations. This has very valuable applications. For-

getting to shift the weight or clear the Right Hip is difficult if the Hips

are initiating the Shoulder Turn-in either direction. Study 2-N and 7-3.

With Swingers using the Arc of Approach (2-5-3), this actuation may be

executed as a "throwing" of the Right Shoulder by the Hips as in 10-

19-C

 

 

 

Now ... You throw that shoulder down plane ... the hip pull the shoulder .... how can a hip pull? which side? ... hehe..

 

Yeb but true.. shoulder have to be thrown more out in some cases. like in my case.

[Lake]

hehe...

 

7-15. HIP ACTION The Hip Action Category is included to separate

the "motion" of the Hips from any work they may accomplish.

The work the Hip Action does, is to lead and pull the Shoulders back and

down in varying combinations. This has very valuable applications. For-

getting to shift the weight or clear the Right Hip is difficult if the Hips

are initiating the Shoulder Turn-in either direction. Study 2-N and 7-3.

With Swingers using the Arc of Approach (2-5-3), this actuation may be

executed as a "throwing" of the Right Shoulder by the Hips as in 10-

19-C

 

Dude .. the shift and rotation hip motion highly depends on the backswing... Left hip for this case.. yes i think partially the key.. I not qualified to tell you why.. ask Machine golfer or Dana. Or Chuck Evans. You need both side working, zone 1 2 3 working correctly. and something to do with vector...

 

Now ... You throw that shoulder down plane or .... the hip pull the shoulder ... OMG.. how can a hip pull? ... hehe..

 

Your getting me fired up now :rolleyes: LOL...The TGM quote you provided does not say the hips CONTROL the shoulders...sure they lead & pull its called sequencing.....didn't you hear: TPI just discovered this with the kinematic sequencing!!!! We could talk for days on the varying degrees of down/out/forward but that is not the point!!! What's our vector victor?...What are you talking about??? If you are going to start-in with the hips I might as well start talking about the knees and ankles....sooner or later we are going to be debating how to tie our shoes....its been fun but I'm sleepy and tomorrow is going to be a beautiful day at the links....Good Night!!!

 

By the way...you translated the "back" wrong...that implies back toward the ball!!!

[hayam]

Hips got alot to do with axis tilt , secondary axis tilt. thus shoulder ... 7-15.

 

back towards the ball, u sure about that?....its keeping the right shoulder back and down plane...Keeping the shoulder back is a A result of shoulder lagged...

 

TPI , I club etc etc.. yes Kinematic Sequencing.. Like in the case of swinging a baseball bat. All component also goes through unconcious and concious acceleration, and deceleration. a little like how hand controlled pivot works. My knowledge in this is hear say.. but a good example is.. say you gota Roll that wrist. the body gotta brake some to give them time to roll. kinda body reacts to the hand and required alignment.. so thats what your trying to tell me?

 

 

Vectors.. Mr. David Orr and Machinegolfer can answer you on that. Its their deal.. and its fantastic stuffs. Most of the stuffs I don't understand about TGM , most of the complex incubator I understood from orrgolf and machinegolfer. I personally rank them TOP even only GSEB. Because they kept researching and very very huge on compatibility and understood the "mistakes" in the yellow book.

 

Well, since your awake.. Release. just look at trigger delay chapter. maximum, the other way is minimum?..

[Lake]

Hips got alot to do with axis tilt , secondary axis tilt. thus shoulder ... 7-15.

 

back towards the ball, u sure about that?....its keeping the right shoulder back and down plane...Keeping the shoulder back is a A result of shoulder lagged...

 

TPI , I club etc etc.. yes Kinematic Sequencing.. Like in the case of swinging a baseball bat. All component also goes through unconcious and concious acceleration, and deceleration. a little like how hand controlled pivot works. My knowledge in this is hear say.. but a good example is.. say you gota Roll that wrist. the body gotta brake some to give them time to roll. kinda body reacts to the hand and required alignment.. so thats what your trying to tell me?

 

 

Vectors.. Mr. David Orr and Machinegolfer can answer you on that. Its their deal.. and its fantastic stuffs. Most of the stuffs I don't understand about TGM , most of the complex incubator I understood from orrgolf and machinegolfer. I personally rank them TOP even only GSEB. Because they kept researching and very very huge on compatibility and understood the "mistakes" in the yellow book.

 

Well, since your awake.. Release. just look at trigger delay chapter. maximum, the other way is minimum?..

 

Pard, I'll take your word on the vector stuff even though I think you mean Dr. Orr's Spectrums.....unless you are talking about Force Vectors in 2-C....or scattered vector's like swinging out to the right while your body is turning left....anyway's its been fun and I see where you are coming from :rolleyes:

[slicefixer]

"TPI just discovered this " :rolleyes: ; ) ;)

 

TPI ain't "discovered" ANYTHING....... :D

[glcoach]

I think he was being facetious. :rolleyes:

[slicefixer]

I think he was being facetious. :rolleyes:

 

 

LOL.......dead on GL.......forgot the smiley face....... ;)

[hayam]

You got it Lake My Pal .

 

Also By Chuck Evans ;

The body starts squared away but with the Hands in Impact condition. Then the reverse Hip Turn MOVES past address and into Impact position.

 

For the Stack and Tilt the hips slide as far left as possible in the start down creating the second axis tilt. One of the keys though is to maintain the Tripod during this movement.

 

 

 

^^.. I didn't say that so ... i guess you gonna ask the pro hehe.. and the spectrum belongs to Plumber and Bennett ;)

[Lake]

You got it Lake My Pal .

 

Also By Chuck Evans ;

The body starts squared away but with the Hands in Impact condition. Then the reverse Hip Turn MOVES past address and into Impact position.

 

For the Stack and Tilt the hips slide as far left as possible in the start down creating the second axis tilt. One of the keys though is to maintain the Tripod during this movement.

 

AND.... if your gonna use 10 5 E, the hip gonna shift down that plane line.

 

^^.. I didn't say that so ... i guess you gonna ask the pro hehe.. and the spectrum belongs to Plumber and Bennett ;)

 

I love that pattern...spent 4-days w/ Chuck last month working on that exact component list down in beautiful Destin, FL... Also, Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer have the "The Grid".... Dr. David Orr is known for his "Spectrums" even though he said he got the pic sequences from Andy....Brian Manzella has "The Manzella Matrix".....Dana Dahlquist has a coloring book with scratch and sniff postions(his words ;) ).....and after this thread I'm going to write a book called "How I survived Hurricane Hayam" ;)

[Lake]

Bought a copy of TGM years ago, have never been able decipher the "code" of how to use it. I do like the pictures of the woman in the skirt with the bufont hairdo though. For those of you who are smart enough to use the book, how do you get started? Do you start with deciding to use a single, double or triple barrel and go from there? HEEEEEEEEELP!!!

 

dlygrisse,

 

The best place to start is www.medicusgolfinstitute.com It is a free forum and they have the largest database of videos explaining the different components & alignments that are hard to figure out through reading forum posts and the book.

 

Lake

[Lake]

"I think Lake should write "TGM for Dummies," lord knows I need it" !

 

I agree that if anyone could write this book, it would be Lake, Hoganfan.

 

For all the love that Slicefixer has earned on GolfWRX from those that know from first hand experience I can say that Lake is also the real deal.

 

If I had one, I would fly a hot air balloon with his name on it !!

 

Thank-You Knob333!!!.......Look forward to your next visit ;) ...Especially if you fly down in a wicker basket!!!

[Lake]

"TPI just discovered this " ;) ; ) ;)

 

TPI ain't "discovered" ANYTHING....... ;)

 

Actually their pelvic rotation exercises have put some spark back in my marriage!!!

[hayam]

Why Lake, I'm a hurricane? Man... you know TGM is an endless PIT.. People have different versions, different understandings. Heck, you know that sometimes we don't even know if we are right or wrong..

 

I still love the way David Orr and Machinegolfer explains TGM, "It all depends " ... hehe.

[Lake]

Why Lake, I'm a hurricane? Man... you know TGM is an endless PIT.. People have different versions, different understandings. Heck, you know that sometimes we don't even know if we are right or wrong..

 

I still love the way David Orr and Machinegolfer explains TGM, "It all depends " ... hehe.

 

 

The Hurricane I am referring to is the constant change of direction that you took during every one of your post in this thread.....I went into "Circle Path Delivery" and you came back with "I would rather talk about release points and elbow positions"....So, I discussed the 5 actions(trigger types) that iniate the release. Instead of talking about your idea you fired back with the hips, where I should get some help, & finally to top things off you bring up Stack & Tilt out of the blue.

 

Personally, I do not believe TGM is an endless PIT...and I only listen to those that echo the words of Mr. Kelly when I'm trying to learn more about his work....that being said I also study everything I can get my hands on and listen to everyone I believe is knowledgeable about golf....just filtering the good from the bad and what works and what doesn't.

 

Good Day ;)

[hayam]

TGM can be very confusing and you need a good interpretor to explain it. You and I have a different explanation for the shoulder, did we? You thrust the shoulder down, I quoted , Hip motion and shoulder motions. I say need to keep the shoulder Back and down, you say 3 dimensional shoulder impact.. hehe...

 

The shoulder is linked to the hips. The path is linked to the shoulder motions elbow motion and release points . I think the reason they are discussed is how closely they affect each other.

 

And when you throw your shoulder and disregard the hips in SF model or moradmodel. you will run into scattered vector.. thats my point. Everything basically turns left . The in out is not caused by "the throw " , its caused by the setup angel. SF explanation is already correct,, set them up and rotate everything left . Motion is mostly " left" and online . thrust is crossline.. Sometimes you think , how did Kelly figure this out? wow..

 

The TGM people always forget about the importance of Zone 1 , because of the argument in 2N. Hand controlled pivot. endless pit it is..I was wrong to many times as well, hehe.

[Lake]

TGM can be very confusing and you need a good interpretor to explain it. You and I have a different explanation for the shoulder, did we? You thrust the shoulder down, I quoted , Hip motion and shoulder motions. I say need to keep the shoulder Back and down, you say 3 dimensional shoulder impact.. hehe...

 

The shoulder is linked to the hips. The path is linked to the shoulder motions elbow motion and release points . I think the reason they are discussed is how closely they affect each other.

 

And when you throw your shoulder and disregard the hips in SF model or moradmodel. you will run into scattered vector.. thats my point. Everything basically turns left . The in out is not caused by "the throw " , its caused by the setup angel. SF explanation is already correct,, set them up and rotate everything left . Motion is mostly " left" and online . thrust is crossline..

 

The TGM people always forget about the importance of Zone 1 , because of the argument in 2N. Hand controlled pivot. endless pit it is..I was wrong to many times as well, hehe.

 

There are 24 Components Hayam plus a ton of other factors that all relate to each other in some form or fashion.....you can't talk about every darn one of them in one post without confusing the heck out of people....I don't know what the heck your talking about 99% of the time!!! I started talking about one component and you added and added and added and added with out ever making a valid point. Here is the bottom line...I never said at anytime that the right shoulder must move 10 degrees out 40 degrees down and 90 degrees forward....I said in all good swings the right shoulder moves down, out, & forward....show me one that doesn't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What TGM people are you talking about....I hope you are not referring to me....because #1 you don't know me!!

 

And yes WE DISAGREE BIG TIME....keeping the right shoulder back and down in the downswing will lead to flipping biscuits, topped shots, chunks, and higher handicaps. Also, I never said to disregard the hips....QUIT saying I said this and that......quote my words when you reply instead of typing what you think I said.....This is unbelievable!!!!

[slicefixer]

"I think Lake should write "TGM for Dummies," lord knows I need it" !

 

I agree that if anyone could write this book, it would be Lake, Hoganfan.

 

For all the love that Slicefixer has earned on GolfWRX from those that know from first hand experience I can say that Lake is also the real deal.

 

If I had one, I would fly a hot air balloon with his name on it !!

 

Thank-You Knob333!!!.......Look forward to your next visit ;) ...Especially if you fly down in a wicker basket!!!

 

 

I'll fly it for ya'.......Lake is going to be one of the best in the biz very, very soon......if he's not already..... ;)

[hayam]

Ok lake .. dun worry what I am saying ok..

 

Peace ;)

[Lake]

"I think Lake should write "TGM for Dummies," lord knows I need it" !

 

I agree that if anyone could write this book, it would be Lake, Hoganfan.

 

For all the love that Slicefixer has earned on GolfWRX from those that know from first hand experience I can say that Lake is also the real deal.

 

If I had one, I would fly a hot air balloon with his name on it !!

 

Thank-You Knob333!!!.......Look forward to your next visit ;) ...Especially if you fly down in a wicker basket!!!

 

 

I'll fly it for ya'.......Lake is going to be one of the best in the biz very, very soon......if he's not already..... ;)

 

Thank-You Slice....means ALOT coming from someone I look-up to in every aspect of our profession. I can't wait to learning some more from you this April ;)

[slicefixer]

"I think Lake should write "TGM for Dummies," lord knows I need it" !

 

I agree that if anyone could write this book, it would be Lake, Hoganfan.

 

For all the love that Slicefixer has earned on GolfWRX from those that know from first hand experience I can say that Lake is also the real deal.

 

If I had one, I would fly a hot air balloon with his name on it !!

 

Thank-You Knob333!!!.......Look forward to your next visit ;) ...Especially if you fly down in a wicker basket!!!

 

 

I'll fly it for ya'.......Lake is going to be one of the best in the biz very, very soon......if he's not already..... ;)

 

Thank-You Slice....means ALOT coming from someone I look-up to in every aspect of our profession. I can't wait to learning some more from you this April ;)

 

NO need to thank me........your EARNING it the right way by NEVER taking somebody else's word and diggin' it out yourself.......that's the way all the true greats have done it and your gonna' be one of em'......IMOP