Slicefixer...Can you explain your takeaway?

[Corey_sulliv21]

Pretty please

I'm on board with the set up adjustments you recommend:

-Reverse K position
-Left hip against a line that extends vertical from the left heel (w/irons)
-60-70% weight on the left
-A little closer to the ball

Where I'm lacking info is your takeaway thoughts. I've read some posts where you talk about:

-Taking it back all in one piece
-Stop the arm swing when the shoulders stop turning

I'm still missing:

-Your thoughts on swing plane, left arm plane relation, etc...
-Clubface position at the top
-Shoulder tilt (flat/steep...etc...)
-Should the left hip stay on that line it started on at address?


I think I'm on the cusp of taking a huge step forward in my game but I need some more of your pearls.

Thanks in advance for the help.

[beachgrovejunior]

I'm on board with the set up adjustments you recommend:

 

-Reverse K position

-Left hip against a line that extends vertical from the left heel (w/irons)

-60-70% weight on the left

-A little closer to the ball

 

Where I'm lacking info is your takeaway thoughts. I've read some posts where you talk about:

 

-Taking it back all in one piece

-Stop the arm swing when the shoulders stop turning

 

I'm still missing:

 

-Your thoughts on swing plane, left arm plane relation, etc...

-Clubface position at the top

-Shoulder tilt (flat/steep...etc...)

-Should the left hip stay on that line it started on at address?

 

 

I think I'm on the cusp of taking a huge step forward in my game but I need some more of your pearls.

 

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

I am very interested in that aspect, as my clubface seems dead shut at the top now, which may be causing the blocks and hooks im hitting

[slicefixer]

Your welcome in advance........hehehe

 

-Your thoughts on swing plane, left arm plane relation, etc...

 

The left arm/shaft/leading edge should all be "in line" and reasonably close to the same as your shoulder plane.......I make slight "adjustments" to fit the individual player.......the important thing is that they are all "in balance," meaning I don't like to see a clubface that is overtly shut/too open a shaft that is too laid off/too much across, etc. It's hard to explain here, but, the bottom line is this, you can make slight adjustments in face angle/shaft plane, etc. if the arms are a bit above or below the ideal plane ..........and that allow the arms/club to REACT in transition/downswing to the PIVOT ..........and which allow the clubhead to square up on it's on without manipulation.......what I'm MOST concerned with is "what's going on in the impact zone"........having control over what's going on there so as to "gain control over the golf ball" which allows a player to "let go of control" and knock all hell from it without ANY fear of criss crosses/double crosses/snaps/blocks, etc. THEN you work your arse off to REALLY gain some "speed"........ ;)

 

-Clubface position at the top

 

See above........but, it CAN be a bit shut or open depending on the player, their individual tendencies in their transition/downswing, arm/shoulder plane, shot shape desired, etc. etc. etc.........

 

 

-Shoulder tilt (flat/steep...etc...)

 

AROUND the spine........meaning the "tilt" of the core at address should be maintained throughout the swing and the shoulders are working 90 to it......(in a "perfect world" ;)).......the angle of the core is maintained through impact and into the throughswing whereupon CF takes over and just about PULLS the arms/club off of the body way LEFT..........a FULL release of the club........ya' gotta' be able to LET the clubhead release 100% or your going to be in trouble when your arse is on the line.........you don't EVER want to be "fighting PHYSICS" in the impact zone........gotta' be able to "just let it go" with NO worries.........

 

-Should the left hip stay on that line it started on at address? Yep, as close as possible........ ;)

[dfw1500]

I agree with you SLICE I like to see the left arma across the shoulder plane with the club laid off (if shorter than parrallel)........... A great image at the top of the swing is that if you lay a pane of glass on your shoulders at the top of the swing it would also cover the club shaft, the club face and your left forearm this would show the club bang on plane ;)

 

The shoulder tilt should be 90 degrees relative to the spine.

 

Cheers Dan

[Furrankee]

I'm on board with the set up adjustments you recommend:

 

-Reverse K position

-Left hip against a line that extends vertical from the left heel (w/irons)

-60-70% weight on the left

-A little closer to the ball

 

Where I'm lacking info is your takeaway thoughts. I've read some posts where you talk about:

 

-Taking it back all in one piece

-Stop the arm swing when the shoulders stop turning

 

I'm still missing:

 

-Your thoughts on swing plane, left arm plane relation, etc...

-Clubface position at the top

-Shoulder tilt (flat/steep...etc...)

-Should the left hip stay on that line it started on at address?

 

 

I think I'm on the cusp of taking a huge step forward in my game but I need some more of your pearls.

 

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

Start your takeaway with your feet. Best advice you'll ever get on takeaways. Make sure you also trace that straight plane line too.

[jaridyard]

I agree with you SLICE I like to see the left arma across the shoulder plane with the club laid off (if shorter than parrallel)........... A great image at the top of the swing is that if you lay a pane of glass on your shoulders at the top of the swing it would also cover the club shaft, the club face and your left forearm this would show the club bang on plane ;)

 

The shoulder tilt should be 90 degrees relative to the spine.

 

Cheers Dan

 

Nice top of backswing picture but be careful with attempting to make shoulder plane perpendicular to spine angle.

The main issues here are at address the left shoulder is higher than the right (right hander), if a controlled turn is made from there the shoulder plane cannot be perpendicular to spine without tilting and should you tilt it will need reversing in the downswing.

Secondly remember that the spine does not form a straight line,

 

Perpendicular to the throracic spine, which is curved, a tough task indeed! Reminds me of one of the TPI tests, at the top of the backswing does a line drawn across your shoulder plane point at the ball?! Now that's a tilt ;)

[Dariusz J.]

The main issues here are at address the left shoulder is higher than the right (right hander

 

This is very important sentence. That's why so many one planers suffer from a disease called "too flat shoulders at the top" and "too inside clubhead takeaway".

I have come to the conclusion that definitely the left side should start the takeaway provided one can be deep enough with his right side at the top.

 

As regards one plane (shoulder line = lead arm line at the top) backswing - it's much more sound in case someone wants to base the swing motion on rotary elements.

 

Cheers

[Texsport]

I didn't realize what an international following GolfWRX and Slicefixer had until this thread. Texas, Canada, Poland and other points all in only a few posts!

 

The word is spreading---Great!

 

Texsport

[dfw1500]

You can still turn the shoulders some where close to 90 degree relative to the spine angle.......the way that the club rises and makes its way to the top is through the cocking of the wrists with the arms reacting to the pivot as this turns on the spine angle.

 

A shoulder angle that is 90 degree relative to the spine is possible as I have got many of my pupils in this position with no lateral motion only a turn around the spine.

 

The flat shoulder turn and too inside takeaway suffered from 1 planers is due to the lawnmower move with the right arm and also an excessive rolling of the forearms too early in the swing this causes the club to work too far behind the rear and causes the weight to move towards the heels and make the shoulder turn too flat this coupled with the extra rotation of the arms gives a flat shoulder plane and flat arm swing.

 

Cheers Dan

[Dariusz J.]

The flat shoulder turn and too inside takeaway suffered from 1 planers is due to the lawnmower move with the right arm and also an excessive rolling of the forearms too early in the swing this causes the club to work too far behind the rear and causes the weight to move towards the heels and make the shoulder turn too flat this coupled with the extra rotation of the arms gives a flat shoulder plane and flat arm swing.

 

Cheers Dan

 

No, no, no. If the "lawnmower move" is done correctly, it has no impact on flat shoulder turn and inside takeaway. Most people do the lawnmower incorrectly, some of them do not need it, etc...but let's not burden this concept as a culprit for everything.

I do agree with your second point though.

 

Cheers

[juansky]

Your welcome in advance........hehehe

 

-Your thoughts on swing plane, left arm plane relation, etc...

 

The left arm/shaft/leading edge should all be "in line" and reasonably close to the same as your shoulder plane.......I make slight "adjustments" to fit the individual player.......the important thing is that they are all "in balance," meaning I don't like to see a clubface that is overtly shut/too open a shaft that is too laid off/too much across, etc. It's hard to explain here, but, the bottom line is this, you can make slight adjustments in face angle/shaft plane, etc. if the arms are a bit above or below the ideal plane ..........and that allow the arms/club to REACT in transition/downswing to the PIVOT ..........and which allow the clubhead to square up on it's on without manipulation.......what I'm MOST concerned with is "what's going on in the impact zone"........having control over what's going on there so as to "gain control over the golf ball" which allows a player to "let go of control" and knock all hell from it without ANY fear of criss crosses/double crosses/snaps/blocks, etc. THEN you work your arse off to REALLY gain some "speed"........ ;)

 

-Clubface position at the top

 

See above........but, it CAN be a bit shut or open depending on the player, their individual tendencies in their transition/downswing, arm/shoulder plane, shot shape desired, etc. etc. etc.........

 

 

-Shoulder tilt (flat/steep...etc...)

 

AROUND the spine........meaning the "tilt" of the core at address should be maintained throughout the swing and the shoulders are working 90 to it......(in a "perfect world" ;) ).......the angle of the core is maintained through impact and into the throughswing whereupon CF takes over and just about PULLS the arms/club off of the body way LEFT..........a FULL release of the club........ya' gotta' be able to LET the clubhead release 100% or your going to be in trouble when your arse is on the line.........you don't EVER want to be "fighting PHYSICS" in the impact zone........gotta' be able to "just let it go" with NO worries.........

 

-Should the left hip stay on that line it started on at address? Yep, as close as possible........ ;)

 

Slice, what's your oipinion on clubhead speed VS. solid impact. Do you think a higher cubhead speed can give you more distance OR does the distance depend on how solid and heavy the hit is at impact?

 

In my opinion....I think it's all about how heavy solid the impact is with a slightly slower swing speed. It would also help if one had some heavy popeye arms. ;)

 

Thanks amigo!

[jaridyard]

You can still turn the shoulders some where close to 90 degree relative to the spine angle.......the way that the club rises and makes its way to the top is through the cocking of the wrists with the arms reacting to the pivot as this turns on the spine angle.

 

Somewhere close, absolutely right.

 

A shoulder angle that is 90 degree relative to the spine is possible as I have got many of my pupils in this position with no lateral motion only a turn around the spine.

 

Yes, I'm sure you have many pupils in this position, however please note that I suggested it wasn't possible 'without tilt' (of the shoulders) meaning that the relationship the shoulders have to the spine at address must change, no mention of lateral motion.

[VAgolfer]

I'm on board with the set up adjustments you recommend:

 

-Reverse K position

-Left hip against a line that extends vertical from the left heel (w/irons)

-60-70% weight on the left

-A little closer to the ball

 

Where I'm lacking info is your takeaway thoughts. I've read some posts where you talk about:

 

-Taking it back all in one piece

-Stop the arm swing when the shoulders stop turning

 

I'm still missing:

 

-Your thoughts on swing plane, left arm plane relation, etc...

-Clubface position at the top

-Shoulder tilt (flat/steep...etc...)

-Should the left hip stay on that line it started on at address?

 

 

I think I'm on the cusp of taking a huge step forward in my game but I need some more of your pearls.

 

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

I am very interested in that aspect, as my clubface seems dead shut at the top now, which may be causing the blocks and hooks im hitting

 

If your having trouble with the clubface closed i would look into getting the swinyde, its done wonders for me as my clubface at the top used to be dead shut and now its actually square and i can release without fear lol http://www.swingyde.com.au/

[mainegolfa]

QUOTE(jaridyard @ Mar 13 2008, 04:44 AM) *

The main issues here are at address the left shoulder is higher than the right (right hander

 

 

This is very important sentence. That's why so many one planers suffer from a disease called "too flat shoulders at the top" and "too inside clubhead takeaway".

I have come to the conclusion that definitely the left side should start the takeaway provided one can be deep enough with his right side at the top.

 

As regards one plane (shoulder line = lead arm line at the top) backswing - it's much more sound in case someone wants to base the swing motion on rotary elements.

 

Cheers

!!!!!!NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!! The fact that the right shoulder is lower than the left at address is an illusion created by the fact that your'e spine is tilted and your'e shoulders are "open" to you're stance. To prove what I'm saying try this. stand up straight in front of a mirror and hold a golf club out in front of you(at a 90* angle to your'e spine) facing the mirror. your'e shoulders will be level to the ground and slightly open to the target line. now bend over from the hips as you would taking an address position, now look at your'e shoulders, the right shoulder does APPEAR lower than the left, but thats just because it was open to the target line when you were standing up and you tilted forward. to put it another way, if you placed a camera on the ground at a point outside the the ball, at address, in line with a line drawn through the shoulders perpendicular to the spine angle, you would see that the shoulders are level.

All having the right shoulder lower than the left at address means is that your'e shoulders have more than 90* to turn to complete the backswing.MY .02.

[mainegolfa]

secondly, it's the more vertical swinging player whose right shoulder is lower at address than the left relative to the body. because the shaft is angled away from the body at address at more than 90*, it stands to reason that the right hand will not only be further away from the body than the left, but lower as well. One could also argue this is why upright players like Woody Austin, Colin Montgomerie, and Payne Stewart, all have (had) a straight(ish) lower spine(s) at address with a rounded thorasic posture to help the hips turn more level while the shoulder can turn on a bit steeper angle. Again, just my take on things.

[slicefixer]

QUOTE(jaridyard @ Mar 13 2008, 04:44 AM) *

The main issues here are at address the left shoulder is higher than the right (right hander

 

 

This is very important sentence. That's why so many one planers suffer from a disease called "too flat shoulders at the top" and "too inside clubhead takeaway".

I have come to the conclusion that definitely the left side should start the takeaway provided one can be deep enough with his right side at the top.

 

As regards one plane (shoulder line = lead arm line at the top) backswing - it's much more sound in case someone wants to base the swing motion on rotary elements.

 

Cheers

!!!!!!NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!! The fact that the right shoulder is lower than the left at address is an illusion created by the fact that your'e spine is tilted and your'e shoulders are "open" to you're stance. To prove what I'm saying try this. stand up straight in front of a mirror and hold a golf club out in front of you(at a 90* angle to your'e spine) facing the mirror. your'e shoulders will be level to the ground and slightly open to the target line. now bend over from the hips as you would taking an address position, now look at your'e shoulders, the right shoulder does APPEAR lower than the left, but thats just because it was open to the target line when you were standing up and you tilted forward. to put it another way, if you placed a camera on the ground at a point outside the the ball, at address, in line with a line drawn through the shoulders perpendicular to the spine angle, you would see that the shoulders are level.

All having the right shoulder lower than the left at address means is that your'e shoulders have more than 90* to turn to complete the backswing.MY .02.

 

 

Sorry my friend, maybe that's true for you, but, it's not for most of the greatest in history nor any of my students......and they all rotate in as efficient a manner as I can figure out......they can use 100% of "what they own".........; )

[slicefixer]

Your welcome in advance........hehehe

 

-Your thoughts on swing plane, left arm plane relation, etc...

 

The left arm/shaft/leading edge should all be "in line" and reasonably close to the same as your shoulder plane.......I make slight "adjustments" to fit the individual player.......the important thing is that they are all "in balance," meaning I don't like to see a clubface that is overtly shut/too open a shaft that is too laid off/too much across, etc. It's hard to explain here, but, the bottom line is this, you can make slight adjustments in face angle/shaft plane, etc. if the arms are a bit above or below the ideal plane ..........and that allow the arms/club to REACT in transition/downswing to the PIVOT ..........and which allow the clubhead to square up on it's on without manipulation.......what I'm MOST concerned with is "what's going on in the impact zone"........having control over what's going on there so as to "gain control over the golf ball" which allows a player to "let go of control" and knock all hell from it without ANY fear of criss crosses/double crosses/snaps/blocks, etc. THEN you work your arse off to REALLY gain some "speed"........ :cheesy:

 

-Clubface position at the top

 

See above........but, it CAN be a bit shut or open depending on the player, their individual tendencies in their transition/downswing, arm/shoulder plane, shot shape desired, etc. etc. etc.........

 

 

-Shoulder tilt (flat/steep...etc...)

 

AROUND the spine........meaning the "tilt" of the core at address should be maintained throughout the swing and the shoulders are working 90 to it......(in a "perfect world" :) ).......the angle of the core is maintained through impact and into the throughswing whereupon CF takes over and just about PULLS the arms/club off of the body way LEFT..........a FULL release of the club........ya' gotta' be able to LET the clubhead release 100% or your going to be in trouble when your arse is on the line.........you don't EVER want to be "fighting PHYSICS" in the impact zone........gotta' be able to "just let it go" with NO worries.........

 

-Should the left hip stay on that line it started on at address? Yep, as close as possible........ ;)

 

Slice, what's your oipinion on clubhead speed VS. solid impact. Do you think a higher cubhead speed can give you more distance OR does the distance depend on how solid and heavy the hit is at impact?

 

In my opinion....I think it's all about how heavy solid the impact is with a slightly slower swing speed. It would also help if one had some heavy popeye arms. :)

 

Thanks amigo!

 

 

the "heavy blow"........just means there isn't any "give" when the clubhead strikes the ball......the impact is VERY "supported"........invaluable to hitting the ball SOLID.......that's why I teach the backswing armswing that I do so that the right arm is in a position so that the right SIDE is "behind the blow"........not "dragging" the right arm toward impact and then slowing to "release"/"sling" the right arm so as to square the face...........the right arm should just be "along for the ride" in the downswing........IMOP......;)

[slicefixer]

I'm on board with the set up adjustments you recommend:

 

-Reverse K position

-Left hip against a line that extends vertical from the left heel (w/irons)

-60-70% weight on the left

-A little closer to the ball

 

Where I'm lacking info is your takeaway thoughts. I've read some posts where you talk about:

 

-Taking it back all in one piece

-Stop the arm swing when the shoulders stop turning

 

I'm still missing:

 

-Your thoughts on swing plane, left arm plane relation, etc...

-Clubface position at the top

-Shoulder tilt (flat/steep...etc...)

-Should the left hip stay on that line it started on at address?

 

 

I think I'm on the cusp of taking a huge step forward in my game but I need some more of your pearls.

 

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

I am very interested in that aspect, as my clubface seems dead shut at the top now, which may be causing the blocks and hooks im hitting

 

If your having trouble with the clubface closed i would look into getting the swinyde, its done wonders for me as my clubface at the top used to be dead shut and now its actually square and i can release without fear lol http://www.swingyde.com.au/

 

 

GREAT teaching aid IF it's set up and used correctly......make sure and throw Coach Flick's video/cd in the trash.....:)

[slicefixer]

As for the my preferred plane at the top......if you go down range and film with the player hitting it OVER the camera the left arm will appeare to be on the shoulder plane from the left shoulder to the base of the neck.......and will appear to be resting ON TOP of the right shoulder with no space visiable..........that's due to the spine not being "straight" but curved.......from a DTL it will appear to be pretty much on the shoulder plane......If it's on the ACTUAL "shoulder plane" it's too flat UNLESS you S&T/MORAD 07' and I'm not a fan of those "patterns" for MOST........ I film my GOOD players from "down range" so I can "SEE" the actual plane they are swingin' on........once again, you can "see" a LOT of things from "down range" that you CANNOT see from any other angle.......in fact, I'll "circle" them and take DTL, move 45 degrees, then FO, then 45 degrees, then "down range," then 45, then "rear end," then 45 degrees, etc. and then the "overhead".......THEN you KNOW "what's going on".......:)

[slicefixer]

I agree with you SLICE I like to see the left arma across the shoulder plane with the club laid off (if shorter than parrallel)........... A great image at the top of the swing is that if you lay a pane of glass on your shoulders at the top of the swing it would also cover the club shaft, the club face and your left forearm this would show the club bang on plane :cheesy:

 

The shoulder tilt should be 90 degrees relative to the spine.

 

Cheers Dan

 

Nice top of backswing picture but be careful with attempting to make shoulder plane perpendicular to spine angle.

The main issues here are at address the left shoulder is higher than the right (right hander), if a controlled turn is made from there the shoulder plane cannot be perpendicular to spine without tilting and should you tilt it will need reversing in the downswing.

Secondly remember that the spine does not form a straight line,

 

Perpendicular to the throracic spine, which is curved, a tough task indeed! Reminds me of one of the TPI tests, at the top of the backswing does a line drawn across your shoulder plane point at the ball?! Now that's a tilt :)

 

 

That's what I'm talking about........only I'm not a doctor so I can't explain it correctly.......LOL.....great pic......:)

[dfw1500]

Thanks SLICE you just did a much better job of explaining exactly what it is that I look for in the swing plane going back....what you are syaing about the camera angles is 100% bang on and it is only after viewing all of these can you truly see the swing plane. :)

 

Cheers Dan

[Dariusz J.]

the left arm will appear to be on the shoulder plane from the left shoulder to the base of the neck.......and will appear to be resting ON TOP of the right shoulder with no space visiable..........that's due to the spine not being "straight" but curved.......from a DTL it will appear to be pretty much on the shoulder plane......If it's on the ACTUAL "shoulder plane" it's too flat UNLESS you S&T/MORAD

 

 

Geoff, could you explain your point here a bit deeper, please ? Why do you think that the fact the spine is curved makes the plane of the shoulders at the top too flat ?

 

Cheers

[slicefixer]

OK.......first let me state this, I'm NOT a doctor and I'm "going from" the advice/counsel of a couple who are.........but the gist is this, your spine is NOT straight so when you turn around a fixed point (I use the base of the cervical) the other sections will move/respond and turn on SLIGHTLY different angles.....in other words, it's impossible for ONE section to remain stationary without other sections reacting on different angles.........to be honest, I wish one of the smart folk's on here who ARE more familiar with anatomy/physiology and are also familiar with a good pivot to explain it in detail.......but the gist is above........

 

As for why it's a BAD IDEA to TRULY turn the arms/club on the same plane as the shoulders, that's pretty easy to explain..........the spine is on a TILT away from the target at address.......the amount varies according to the club/shot/trajectory/impact desired.........IF you PIVOT properly (turning with NO sliding......turning "deep") from a correct SET UP the arms would work WAY too inside and around BEHIND the body IF you attempt to keep em' "glued" to the chest, but, they WOULD end up on a plane that's virtually the same as the shoulders......you CAN do this and it will work IF you remain WIDE and synched.......but, most won't.........they will end up with the club/arms behind their butt and this will REQUIRE some manipulation by the arms in the transition to get them and the club into a position so that they can be delivered in the correct alignment/positioning relative to the core at impact.........IF you get the club/arms behind your arse and "just let it go" you'll never hit it very solid and pretty much the entire "property" is in play.......you can miss it in all directions and not very solid........so, I teach an armswing that's SLIGHTLY more upright/steeper than the shoulders/core is winding upon........tha arms ends up on a plane that is SLIGHTLY more upright than the shoulder plane.........Hardy would call it "2 plane" I guess, but, I don't really care as the DOWNswing ends up being a LOT easier, more consistent, and more powerful than his 1plane stuff and requires NO manipulation (right arm throwovers) in transition and is MUCH more true to Mr. Hogan.......

 

With all of that being said, I've stated this a zillion times and normally at least ONE time a day, "there is NOTHING wrong with being a bit flat IF you keep it WIDE, like both Mr. Hogan and my student in the 9 to 3 video (you'll just attack from SLIGHTLY more inside and shallower), but, for MOST it's easier and ends up a bit more consistent if they keep the arms working SLIGHTLY steeper than the shoulders/trunk so as to set em' up to be delivered "in front of and WITH the core" during impact.....in short, a SIMPLE and POWERFUL DOWNswing......as Jack Burke states (or has been credited to him), (paraphrasing) "you CAN think a bit about the BACKswing, but, you damn sure better not be doing a lot of thinking in the DOWNswing, it happens WAY to fast".........

 

I hope that makes sense........:)

[Dariusz J.]

OK.......first let me state this, I'm NOT a doctor and I'm "going from" the advice/counsel of a couple who are.........but the gist is this, your spine is NOT straight so when you turn around a fixed point (I use the base of the cervical) the other sections will move/respond and turn on SLIGHTLY different angles.....in other words, it's impossible for ONE section to remain stationary without other sections reacting on different angles.........to be honest, I wish one of the smart folk's on here who ARE more familiar with anatomy/physiology and are also familiar with a good pivot to explain it in detail.......but the gist is above........

 

As for why it's a BAD IDEA to TRULY turn the arms/club on the same plane as the shoulders, that's pretty easy to explain..........the spine is on a TILT away from the target at address.......the amount varies according to the club/shot/trajectory/impact desired.........IF you PIVOT properly (turning with NO sliding......turning "deep") from a correct SET UP the arms would work WAY too inside and around BEHIND the body IF you attempt to keep em' "glued" to the chest, but, they WOULD end up on a plane that's virtually the same as the shoulders......you CAN do this and it will work IF you remain WIDE and synched.......but, most won't.........they will end up with the club/arms behind their butt and this will REQUIRE some manipulation by the arms in the transition to get them and the club into a position so that they can be delivered in the correct alignment/positioning relative to the core at impact.........IF you get the club/arms behind your arse and "just let it go" you'll never hit it very solid and pretty much the entire "property" is in play.......you can miss it in all directions and not very solid........so, I teach an armswing that's SLIGHTLY more upright/steeper than the shoulders/core is winding upon........tha arms ends up on a plane that is SLIGHTLY more upright than the shoulder plane.........Hardy would call it "2 plane" I guess, but, I don't really care as the DOWNswing ends up being a LOT easier, more consistent, and more powerful than his 1plane stuff and requires NO manipulation (right arm throwovers) in transition and is MUCH more true to Mr. Hogan.......

 

With all of that being said, I've stated this a zillion times and normally at least ONE time a day, "there is NOTHING wrong with being a bit flat IF you keep it WIDE, like both Mr. Hogan and my student in the 9 to 3 video (you'll just attack from SLIGHTLY more inside and shallower), but, for MOST it's easier and ends up a bit more consistent if they keep the arms working SLIGHTLY steeper than the shoulders/trunk so as to set em' up to be delivered "in front of and WITH the core" during impact.....in short, a SIMPLE and POWERFUL DOWNswing......as Jack Burke states (or has been credited to him), (paraphrasing) "you CAN think a bit about the BACKswing, but, you damn sure better not be doing a lot of thinking in the DOWNswing, it happens WAY to fast".........

 

I hope that makes sense........:)

 

 

Yes, it does. I am not a doctor either, but your explanation is very logical and sound, and eye-opening. I am sorry in advance that what I am going to say below is written in not understandable English, but the dilemma is very complicated and important.

 

What I discovered long ago is (please correct me if I am on a wrong path) - when a golfer wants to hit very strong he is usually under plane on the takeaway, usually also with a clubhead taken to much to the inside. From such a position this golfer have an alternative (as you said) - to hit from a laid off position, which is relatively weak or to lift up the arms as the last backswing move in order to be on plane; it all happens subconscioussnesly.

It would explain, why a full body turn with a deep backswing requires lead forearm position slightly over the shoulders line (the best exaple was Snead's backswing) and a less inside takeaway in order to avoid the plane shift. One planers wanting to copy Hogan usually try to copy his top position, not taking into account that he was in a laid-off position with his arms and his body turn was smaller than 90*.

 

The remaining problem for one planers is to convince their brain to have a less connected takeaway that would be a logical antidotum to the above described situation. Most rotary golfer try to turn their bodies as strong as possible with their arms usually following underplane, leading them to a position at the top that is not biomechanically ideal. I would be delighted if it appears that the spine curves and this discussion in the thread are the main culprit for such a situation. If people understand this it would be much better for them since it is hard to perform an automatic pivot guided downswing while the backswing is not ideal. I agree to you 100%.

 

Lastly, according to Hardy, the whole dillemma is dependent on the shoulder line at the top in the so-called 48" zone, i.e. shoulders bent enough. I have made special researches according to that some of the classic one planers (with Mr.Hogan at the piedestal) never were in the zone; their shoulders were flatter and they were still on the plane without the necessity of making any shifts at the end of the backswing. This 48" zone, FYI, is another concept in the OP theory that I can't agree to, because the reality is different. I simply think that Hardy's solution is too simple - OK, you would not need a shift but with such a big spine bend the position at the top is not the best for taking benefit of all the power during downswing.

I am last man who would like to see arms above the shoulders line at the top (such a 2-plane position will not guarantee a pivot guided automatic downswing, which is obvious) but I hate to see the underplane takeaway and correction at the top as well. I do hope this thread will contribute to something really important that will help golfers who struggle with their takeaway and backswing.

I am not wise enough to solve this problem myself, therefore, I will be all ears for your ideas.

 

Thank you, Geoff. Cheers.

[fats]

"With all of that being said, I've stated this a zillion times and normally at least ONE time a day, "there is NOTHING wrong with being a bit flat IF you keep it WIDE, like both Mr. Hogan and my student in the 9 to 3 video (you'll just attack from SLIGHTLY more inside and shallower), but, for MOST it's easier and ends up a bit more consistent if they keep the arms working SLIGHTLY steeper than the shoulders/trunk so as to set em' up to be delivered "in front of and WITH the core" during impact.....in short, a SIMPLE and POWERFUL DOWNswing......as Jack Burke states (or has been credited to him), (paraphrasing) "you CAN think a bit about the BACKswing, but, you damn sure better not be doing a lot of thinking in the DOWNswing, it happens WAY to fast".........

 

I hope that makes sense........

 

Slicefixer

 

 

Slicefixer...Why I say you are the best I've ever run into is you speak like a *player and teacher* ... That's rare, well, I guess I'd put Jackie Burke Jr in there with you...What gives you the ultimate credibility IMOP, is you can verify virtually perfect golf swings by tender aged junior golfers via a video clip...most of the other teachers play on dead oldtime players like Hogan or Snead.

 

The fact you show so much sincerity in your answers to these questions is amazing to me. Gheeez...You might have even converted ol' DariusZ...LOL...DariusZ has come a long way...I'm happy to see that. You sure opened my eyes and I'm all the better for it. Thanks

 

Fats

[jaridyard]

the left arm will appear to be on the shoulder plane from the left shoulder to the base of the neck.......and will appear to be resting ON TOP of the right shoulder with no space visiable..........that's due to the spine not being "straight" but curved.......from a DTL it will appear to be pretty much on the shoulder plane......If it's on the ACTUAL "shoulder plane" it's too flat UNLESS you S&T/MORAD

 

 

Geoff, could you explain your point here a bit deeper, please ? Why do you think that the fact the spine is curved makes the plane of the shoulders at the top too flat ?

 

Cheers

 

This isn't the most in depth or detailed answer on the subject, the field of thoracic rotation in the golf swing in largely untouched except for occasional reference.

 

Firstly take a look at this http://www.orthospine.com/flash/interact1.swf

 

Here you can see an entire spine in rotation, the majority of the golf rotation comes from the thoracic spine (maximum of 35 degrees). Take note of the curve at address (pause it at the down the line view), picture how high up the thoracic spine the typical shoulder centre would be and how much flexion (forward bend) there is in that area, it's nice that there's a blue horizontal line there for reference. Now rotate the image to a top of the backswing (facing you position) the spine has now effectively flattened (And the left shoulder is higher than the right at address & this position relative to spine) and as a result the shoulders will be in a flatter position than a line drawn perpendicular at address would have predicted. In order to get a match the spine would need to flex laterally and anyone with a knowledge of spinal function will know that lateral flexion causes compression, never good.

The above however only isolates the thoracic spine and it's curve, adding lumbar/cervical would only exaggerate the point further. And yes, the entire spine doesn't rotate as in the image but it's the best I could find right now. I will endeavor to post a better illustration over the next few days.

 

Hope that makes some sense?!

[slicefixer]

"With all of that being said, I've stated this a zillion times and normally at least ONE time a day, "there is NOTHING wrong with being a bit flat IF you keep it WIDE, like both Mr. Hogan and my student in the 9 to 3 video (you'll just attack from SLIGHTLY more inside and shallower), but, for MOST it's easier and ends up a bit more consistent if they keep the arms working SLIGHTLY steeper than the shoulders/trunk so as to set em' up to be delivered "in front of and WITH the core" during impact.....in short, a SIMPLE and POWERFUL DOWNswing......as Jack Burke states (or has been credited to him), (paraphrasing) "you CAN think a bit about the BACKswing, but, you damn sure better not be doing a lot of thinking in the DOWNswing, it happens WAY to fast".........

 

I hope that makes sense........

 

Slicefixer

 

 

Slicefixer...Why I say you are the best I've ever run into is you speak like a *player and teacher* ... That's rare, well, I guess I'd put Jackie Burke Jr in there with you...What gives you the ultimate credibility IMOP, is you can verify virtually perfect golf swings by tender aged junior golfers via a video clip...most of the other teachers play on dead oldtime players like Hogan or Snead.

 

The fact you show so much sincerity in your answers to these questions is amazing to me. Gheeez...You might have even converted ol' DariusZ...LOL...DariusZ has come a long way...I'm happy to see that. You sure opened my eyes and I'm all the better for it. Thanks

 

Fats

 

Fats, I REALLY appreciate your comments.......knowing your accomplishments and knowledge I'm VERY flattered and humbled a bit........ :)

[slicefixer]

the left arm will appear to be on the shoulder plane from the left shoulder to the base of the neck.......and will appear to be resting ON TOP of the right shoulder with no space visiable..........that's due to the spine not being "straight" but curved.......from a DTL it will appear to be pretty much on the shoulder plane......If it's on the ACTUAL "shoulder plane" it's too flat UNLESS you S&T/MORAD

 

 

Geoff, could you explain your point here a bit deeper, please ? Why do you think that the fact the spine is curved makes the plane of the shoulders at the top too flat ?

 

Cheers

 

This isn't the most in depth or detailed answer on the subject, the field of thoracic rotation in the golf swing in largely untouched except for occasional reference.

 

Firstly take a look at this http://www.orthospine.com/flash/interact1.swf

 

Here you can see an entire spine in rotation, the majority of the golf rotation comes from the thoracic spine (maximum of 35 degrees). Take note of the curve at address (pause it at the down the line view), picture how high up the thoracic spine the typical shoulder centre would be and how much flexion (forward bend) there is in that area, it's nice that there's a blue horizontal line there for reference. Now rotate the image to a top of the backswing (facing you position) the spine has now effectively flattened (And the left shoulder is higher than the right at address & this position relative to spine) and as a result the shoulders will be in a flatter position than a line drawn perpendicular at address would have predicted. In order to get a match the spine would need to flex laterally and anyone with a knowledge of spinal function will know that lateral flexion causes compression, never good.

The above however only isolates the thoracic spine and it's curve, adding lumbar/cervical would only exaggerate the point further.

 

Hope that makes some sense?!

 

 

THANK YOU my friend.......as I stated earlier, I'm FAR from a doctor and IF there is anything I've learned over the years is do NOT try and explain something you don't REALLY "know"......LOL.......what I "know" is that the spine isn't straight and that affects the way/"angles" different portions relate to one another........ :) I gotta' get on the hwy toward NC, but, I'll read the stuff above as soon as I get there and settled in.......:cheesy:

[trapsmv15]

Slice, would you say that Hunter Mahan is a pretty good example of the backswing (and even downswing) that you teach and are describing?

[TEConnor]

Slice, you continue to impress. I have struggled mightily with the takeaway in my transition from a slinging to a rotary swing. I have been battling hard against pulling back to the inside, turning with the arms pegged to the chest, and getting all out of whack (sometimes laid-off...other times shut and over the line). What felt better was to consciously think about creating a very slight "separation" or lift of the arms as the body rotates back. (Hence, what felt like my good swings was as you described, but I thought I was just putting a band aid on some other unknown problem, which I usually attributed to rotating forearms...but that was a double compound error most of the time). I was thinking "oh no, that can't possibly be right, cause I'm losing the connection of the arms and the core..." The thing is, when I feel that slight separation, as you clearly describe, the downswing is effortless and automatic without feeling like I am struggling to keep arms and club reasonably synched up. Thanks for this post! I feel like this has been a true missing link in my understanding.

 

Cheers,

Tim