An Unplayable Lie Flop

[Sawgrass]

Woe is me

Hit my drive up against an o.b. chain link fence today. Ball came to rest about 3 inches from the fence, and I would have had to hit opposite-handed with the back of an iron (or backwards along the fence) to move it at all. Decided to take an unplayable lie penalty instead. Marked two club lengths toward the fairway and dropped the ball. It hit hardpan and bounced back toward the fence. It didn't move more than two club lengths though, so I couldn't re-drop without an additional penalty. So I was pretty much in the same situation as before, only now lieing one stroke more.

It never dawned on me that the ball would bounce back to the same position, and I'm so used to taking a free drop from a cart path or other immoveable obstruction, where if it bounces back you just take another free drop, that I didn't even think of the possibility.

Anyway, a word to the wise.

[DaveLeeNC]

I believe that rule 20-2-c allows you to re-drop when you ultimately do not get relief from the immovable obstruction from which you were seeking relief.

That is my reading of that rule. A question comes to mind, however. Does that mean that if you are (for example) way under a BIG bush and you take a drop where clearly you won't get relief (2 club lengths is not enough), then you can drop and drop and drop until the ball FINALLY rolls away from the bush (less than 2 clublengths) where you do actually get relief from the bush?

dave

ps. I'll bet that is in the decisions somewhere. But I have to take a sick dog to the vet and don't have time to check. My apologies for sloppy posting here, but my dog JJ is going to take precedence

[therusty]

11. Unplayable Lie: if you find your ball outside of a hazard, but cannot play it, add 1 penalty stroke and either a) go back to where you originally hit the ball, b) drop the ball within 2 club lengths of where your ball lies no nearer the hole, or c) drop the ball any distance along a straight line from the hole and the point of the unplayable lie, no closer to the hole.

Might it have been wiser to choose option a instead of option b?

[KevCarter]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' post='1969326' date='Sep 24 2009, 08:58 AM']I believe that rule 20-2-c allows you to re-drop when you ultimately do not get relief from the immovable obstruction from which you were seeking relief.

That is my reading of that rule. A question comes to mind, however. Does that mean that if you are (for example) way under a BIG bush and you take a drop where clearly you won't get relief (2 club lengths is not enough), then you can drop and drop and drop until the ball FINALLY rolls away from the bush (less than 2 clublengths) where you do actually get relief from the bush?

dave

ps. I'll bet that is in the decisions somewhere. But I have to take a sick dog to the vet and don't have time to check. My apologies for sloppy posting here, but my dog JJ is going to take precedence [/quote]

Dave,

Because you are rushing you may be confusing the issue. Remember, he was up against an out of bounds fence, no free relief as fences defining out of bounds are not obstructions. He had to take an unplayable lie to get relief. No re-drop if it rolls back into the same situation. Tough deal for SawGrass, you really need to think through your options and potential problems very carefully when taking an unplayable...

Kevin

EDIT:

DaveLeeNC,

As a dog lover myself, I hope JJ is OK! Please update us later...

Thanks,
Kevin

[OpusX20]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' post='1969326' date='Sep 24 2009, 08:58 AM']I believe that rule 20-2-c allows you to re-drop when you ultimately do not get relief from the immovable obstruction from which you were seeking relief.

That is my reading of that rule. A question comes to mind, however. Does that mean that if you are (for example) way under a BIG bush and you take a drop where clearly you won't get relief (2 club lengths is not enough), then you can drop and drop and drop until the ball FINALLY rolls away from the bush (less than 2 clublengths) where you do actually get relief from the bush?

dave

ps. I'll bet that is in the decisions somewhere. But I have to take a sick dog to the vet and don't have time to check. My apologies for sloppy posting here, but my dog JJ is going to take precedence [/quote]

Hey Dave.

You are right about Rule 20-2c allowing for a re-drop from an immovable obstruction. However, this rule does not apply to an out of bounds fence. The out of bounds fence is not an obstruction. A re-drop is allowed when taking relief under rules 24-2b, 25-1, 25-3, 33-8a or 25-2. In this case Sawgrass was taking relief under rule 28 (Unplayable Lie). Rule 28 does not allow you to re-drop until you get relief.

This same rule would apply to the big bush you describe. If you take 2 club-length relief and still don't get the clearance you need, you can take another penalty and two club relief and so on. Of course, if you see this is likely to happen, you could go back to the spot from where you last played instead of starting down the parade of two club-lengths penalties.

Decision 28/3 illustrates this...

Question: A player declared his ball unplayable and, under Rule 28c, dropped his ball within two club-lengths of the spot where it lay. The ball came to rest in the original position or another position at which the ball was unplayable. What is the ruling?

Answer: The ball was in play when it was dropped – Rule 20-4. Thus, if the ball came to rest in the original position, the player must again invoke the unplayable ball Rule, incurring an additional penalty stroke, unless he decides to play the ball as it lies. The same applies if the ball came to rest in another position at which it was unplayable, assuming that the ball did not roll into a position covered by Rule 20-2c, in which case re-dropping without penalty would be required. (Revised)

EDIT: I hope your dog is OK.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='OpusX20' post='1969367' date='Sep 24 2009, 09:28 AM'][quote name='DaveLeeNC' post='1969326' date='Sep 24 2009, 08:58 AM']I believe that rule 20-2-c allows you to re-drop when you ultimately do not get relief from the immovable obstruction from which you were seeking relief.

That is my reading of that rule. A question comes to mind, however. Does that mean that if you are (for example) way under a BIG bush and you take a drop where clearly you won't get relief (2 club lengths is not enough), then you can drop and drop and drop until the ball FINALLY rolls away from the bush (less than 2 clublengths) where you do actually get relief from the bush?

dave

ps. I'll bet that is in the decisions somewhere. But I have to take a sick dog to the vet and don't have time to check. My apologies for sloppy posting here, but my dog JJ is going to take precedence [/quote]

Hey Dave.

You are right about Rule 20-2c allowing for a re-drop from an immovable obstruction. However, this rule does not apply to an out of bounds fence. The out of bounds fence is not an obstruction. A re-drop is allowed when taking relief under rules 24-2b, 25-1, 25-3, 33-8a or 25-2. In this case Sawgrass was taking relief under rule 28 (Unplayable Lie). Rule 28 does not allow you to re-drop until you get relief.

This same rule would apply to the big bush you describe. If you take 2 club-length relief and still don't get the clearance you need, you can take another penalty and two club relief and so on. Of course, if you see this is likely to happen, you could go back to the spot from where you last played instead of starting down the parade of two club-lengths penalties.

Decision 28/3 illustrates this...

Question: A player declared his ball unplayable and, under Rule 28c, dropped his ball within two club-lengths of the spot where it lay. The ball came to rest in the original position or another position at which the ball was unplayable. What is the ruling?

Answer: The ball was in play when it was dropped – Rule 20-4. Thus, if the ball came to rest in the original position, the player must again invoke the unplayable ball Rule, incurring an additional penalty stroke, unless he decides to play the ball as it lies. The same applies if the ball came to rest in another position at which it was unplayable, assuming that the ball did not roll into a position covered by Rule 20-2c, in which case re-dropping without penalty would be required. (Revised)

EDIT: I hope your dog is OK.
[/quote]

[b]AWESOME[/b] explanation as usual Opus. I was being far too lazy with mine. Thanks for spending the time!

Cheers,
Kevin

[OpusX20]

Thanks Kevin!

[quote name='Sawgrass' post='1968883' date='Sep 23 2009, 10:35 PM']Hit my drive up against an o.b. chain link fence today. Ball came to rest about 3 inches from the fence, and I would have had to hit opposite-handed with the back of an iron (or backwards along the fence) to move it at all. Decided to take an unplayable lie penalty instead. Marked two club lengths toward the fairway and dropped the ball. It hit hardpan and bounced back toward the fence. It didn't move more than two club lengths though, so I couldn't re-drop without an additional penalty. So I was pretty much in the same situation as before, only now lieing one stroke more.

It never dawned on me that the ball would bounce back to the same position, and I'm so used to taking a free drop from a cart path or other immoveable obstruction, where if it bounces back you just take another free drop, that I didn't even think of the possibility.

Anyway, a word to the wise.[/quote]

I've done the exact same thing Sawgrass. I used to work at a golf course that was home to several PGA Tour pros. One day I was out on the range and saw one of them off to the side doing some strange stuff. Usually I didn't bother them while they were practicing, but my curiosity got the best of me. I went over and asked him what he was doing. He told me he was "practicing his drop". Apparently he did this quite often. Honestly, it had never occurred to me to practice dropping the ball. He pointed out the very thin line that they compete on. Anyway, I've tried it and you can "get better" at how you drop.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='therusty' post='1969352' date='Sep 24 2009, 10:18 AM']11. Unplayable Lie: if you find your ball outside of a hazard, but cannot play it, add 1 penalty stroke and either a) go back to where you originally hit the ball, b) drop the ball within 2 club lengths of where your ball lies no nearer the hole, or c) drop the ball any distance along a straight line from the hole and the point of the unplayable lie, no closer to the hole.

Might it have been wiser to choose option a instead of option b?[/quote]

It certainly might have. But my judgement at the time was that giving up the 200-plus yards wasn't worth it. As it turned out, after I dropped the second time the ball was about a foot and a half from the fence, and I was able to stand on my toes up against the fence and punch it out to the fairway with an awkward half swing. I probably ended up where a decent new tee shot would have landed, lieing 3 in either case. If I had muffed the awkward punch out (which I easily could have), then going back to the tee would really have been the better choice. But that choice, as is often the case, was given up way back in time.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='OpusX20' post='1969393' date='Sep 24 2009, 10:43 AM']I've done the exact same thing Sawgrass. I used to work at a golf course that was home to several PGA Tour pros. One day I was out on the range and saw one of them off to the side doing some strange stuff. Usually I didn't bother them while they were practicing, but my curiosity got the best of me. I went over and asked him what he was doing. He told me he was "practicing his drop". Apparently he did this quite often. Honestly, it had never occurred to me to practice dropping the ball. He pointed out the very thin line that they compete on. Anyway, I've tried it and you can "get better" at how you drop.[/quote]

Now I see we have to split our practice time between long game, short game and dropping game. (And head game.)

The whole dropping game thing is one aspect I haven't seen covered in Golf Digest yet. Not to take this too seriously, but I do make it my habit when taking a drop on a side hill to decide if I hope the ball will bounce away or stay close to where I drop it. I then either stand below the drop point with my arm out at shoulder height (to minimize the verticle distance the ball drops and minimize the potential for bouncing) or stand above the point I'm dropping to to maximize the distance from my hand to the ground and maximize the potential for the ball to run away (and maybe even create an opportunity for a placement after the ball moves more than two club lengths the second time it's dropped).

[DaveLeeNC]

Yep - I missed the OB fence question (OB markers are not obstructions).

In the meantime was are doing barium x-rays on JJ (Irish Water Spaniel). Probable obstruction, but no free relief from an intestinal obstruction

dave

[Golffabrik]

Poor JJ...is he going to have to take a penalty shot?

[therusty]

Once you take a drop from an unplayable lie, do you lose the option to go back to the original location (i.e. does the first unplayable location become the new "where you originally hit the ball" location)?

[OpusX20]

[quote name='therusty' post='1969591' date='Sep 24 2009, 11:29 AM']Once you take a drop from an unplayable lie, do you lose the option to go back to the original location (i.e. does the first unplayable location become the new "where you originally hit the ball" location)?[/quote]

Interesting question. Decision 28/6.5 discusses this...

[i]Question: A player plays a stroke from Point A to Point B. The player declares his ball unplayable and proceeds under either Rule 28b or c. After dropping under penalty of one stroke, the ball comes to rest at Point C. The player declares his ball unplayable for a second time and wishes to proceed under Rule 28a, playing from Point A. Is this permissible?

Answer: Yes. The player may play from Point A because he did not make a stroke at the ball from either Point B or Point C. Point A was the spot from which the original ball was last played. The player would incur a total of two penalty strokes.[/i]

[Golffabrik]

Wow...I never would have thought that you could still go back. But, somehow it makes sense as you could stymie yourself in repeated unplayable lies. Thanks.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='kevcarter ' post='1969360' date='Sep 24 2009, 10:24 AM']As a dog lover myself, I hope JJ is OK! Please update us later...

Thanks,
Kevin[/quote]

Despite the symptoms this turns out to be a spastic small intestine, rather than an obstruction (so no penalty drop and no surgery). Thanks for the interest.

Related to this - am I correct that if your ball was in an 'real' obstruction (say a bush) where 2 clublengths was not enough for relief, but 4 clublengths was enough, you could drop, re-drop, re-drop .... until the ball rolled far enough away to actually provide relief (but not more than 2 club lengths from the drop point). Reference Rule 20-2-c.

I've never seen anyone try this (and it would take some pretty special circumstances for sure), but it seems to me that you could do this. I didn't see this case in the decision database.

dave

[KevCarter]

Dave,

Very happy to hear JJ is OK!

The only time you may, or have to redrop are as follows:

[b]c. When to Re-Drop[/b]
A dropped ball must be re-dropped, without penalty, if it:
(i) rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard;
(ii) rolls out of and comes to rest outside a hazard;
(iii) rolls onto and comes to rest on a putting green;
(iv) rolls and comes to rest out of bounds;
(v) rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into the pitch-mark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball);
(vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengths from where it first struck a part of the course; or
(vii) rolls and comes to rest nearer the hole than:
(a) its original position or estimated position (see Rule 20-2b) unless otherwise permitted by the Rules; or
(b) the nearest point of relief or maximum available relief (Rule 24-2, 25-1 or 25-3); or
© the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or lateral water hazard (Rule 26-1).
If the ball when re-dropped rolls into any position listed above, it must be placed as near as possible to the spot where it first struck a part of the course when re-dropped.
Note 1: If a ball when dropped or re-dropped comes to rest and subsequently moves, the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.
Note 2: If a ball to be re-dropped or placed under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.
(Use of Dropping Zone - see Appendix I; Part B; Section 8.)

Kevin

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' post='1970368' date='Sep 24 2009, 08:12 PM'][quote name='kevcarter ' post='1969360' date='Sep 24 2009, 10:24 AM']As a dog lover myself, I hope JJ is OK! Please update us later...

Thanks,
Kevin[/quote]

Despite the symptoms this turns out to be a spastic small intestine, rather than an obstruction (so no penalty drop and no surgery). Thanks for the interest.

Related to this - am I correct that if your ball was in an 'real' obstruction (say a bush) where 2 clublengths was not enough for relief, but 4 clublengths was enough, you could drop, re-drop, re-drop .... until the ball rolled far enough away to actually provide relief (but not more than 2 club lengths from the drop point). Reference Rule 20-2-c.

I've never seen anyone try this (and it would take some pretty special circumstances for sure), but it seems to me that you could do this. I didn't see this case in the decision database.

dave
[/quote]

Glad to hear that your dog isn't in bad shape.

Regarding your question, I first have to point out that the rules don't define trees or bushes as "obstructions". But despite this you are entitled to define any lie you choose as unplayable. And you can therefore take, as one option, a two club length (no closer to the hole) drop for one stroke penalty. If you choose to do that again to get two more club lengths (assuming that your first drop stayed in a position two lengths from its original position) you're welcome to try for the price of an attitional stroke penalty. But if that seems what you need to survive, you may well be better off taking the option of going back to the previous position the ball was in and thereby suffer a stroke and distance penalty rather than the two strokes that two consecutive unplayable lies would cost you. (Another option is to drop the ball further back from the hole on the imaginary line extended from the pin to the unplayable lie, but that often leads to an unacceptable location.)

Edit: Or, maybe Kevin understood your question better than I!

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Sawgrass' post='1970397' date='Sep 24 2009, 07:29 PM'][quote name='DaveLeeNC' post='1970368' date='Sep 24 2009, 08:12 PM'][quote name='kevcarter ' post='1969360' date='Sep 24 2009, 10:24 AM']As a dog lover myself, I hope JJ is OK! Please update us later...

Thanks,
Kevin[/quote]

Despite the symptoms this turns out to be a spastic small intestine, rather than an obstruction (so no penalty drop and no surgery). Thanks for the interest.

Related to this - am I correct that if your ball was in an 'real' obstruction (say a bush) where 2 clublengths was not enough for relief, but 4 clublengths was enough, you could drop, re-drop, re-drop .... until the ball rolled far enough away to actually provide relief (but not more than 2 club lengths from the drop point). Reference Rule 20-2-c.

I've never seen anyone try this (and it would take some pretty special circumstances for sure), but it seems to me that you could do this. I didn't see this case in the decision database.

dave
[/quote]

Glad to hear that your dog isn't in bad shape.

Regarding your question, I first have to point out that the rules don't define trees or bushes as "obstructions". But despite this you are entitled to define any lie you choose as unplayable. And you can therefore take, as one option, a two club length (no closer to the hole) drop for one stroke penalty. If you choose to do that again to get two more club lengths (assuming that your first drop stayed in a position two lengths from its original position) you're welcome to try for the price of an attitional stroke penalty. But if that seems what you need to survive, you may well be better off taking the option of going back to the previous position the ball was in and thereby suffer a stroke and distance penalty rather than the two strokes that two consecutive unplayable lies would cost you. (Another option is to drop the ball further back from the hole on the imaginary line extended from the pin to the unplayable lie, but that often leads to an unacceptable location.)

Edit: Or, maybe Kevin understood your question better than I!
[/quote]

HaHa, I may not have understood the question at all... I'm just happy to hear JJ's OK, drop it wherever you want the next 3 rounds!



Kevin

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='kevcarter ' post='1970390' date='Sep 24 2009, 08:26 PM']Dave,

Very happy to hear JJ is OK!

The only time you may, or have to redrop are as follows:

[b]c. When to Re-Drop[/b]
A dropped ball must be re-dropped, without penalty, if it:
(i) rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard;
(ii) rolls out of and comes to rest outside a hazard;
(iii) rolls onto and comes to rest on a putting green;
(iv) rolls and comes to rest out of bounds;
(v) rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into the pitch-mark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball);
(vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengths from where it first struck a part of the course; or
(vii) rolls and comes to rest nearer the hole than:
(a) its original position or estimated position (see Rule 20-2b) unless otherwise permitted by the Rules; or
(b) the nearest point of relief or maximum available relief (Rule 24-2, 25-1 or 25-3); or
© the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or lateral water hazard (Rule 26-1).
If the ball when re-dropped rolls into any position listed above, it must be placed as near as possible to the spot where it first struck a part of the course when re-dropped.
Note 1: If a ball when dropped or re-dropped comes to rest and subsequently moves, the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.
Note 2: If a ball to be re-dropped or placed under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.
(Use of Dropping Zone - see Appendix I; Part B; Section 8.)

Kevin[/quote]

I thought I'd found a "loophole" in the rules. But I do believe I am wrong. Happened before.

Thanks.

dave

[Speedly]

I know the rules are in place for a reason. But in my opinion, logic (as opposed to the rulebook) says he should not have been required to take another penalty stroke as long as he didn't unreasonably improve his lie (excepting the relief he was seeking). One stroke is punishment enough - another is simply insult. Logic says that he be allowed a free drop within reason, so long as it's no closer to the hole and in the vicinity of where the ball originally was.

Note that I'm speaking [i]independently of the rulebook[/i].