Playing Hickory Golf

[bajadulce]

Geoff,

Looks like you're a movie star:
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuM4aVbZqHU[/media]

[Blade Junkie]

[quote name='bajadulce' timestamp='1383614377' post='8102518']
Geoff,

Looks like you're a movie star:
[/quote]

Good spot! That footage was on TV over here on the [i]Golfing World [/i]program on Sky Sports.

Another 10 seconds chipped off my "15 minutes of fame"

I just thought it was funny that the camera guy focussed on me rather than the infinitesimally more skilled tour player I was playing with - lol.


Deal Hudson's lucky pipe features at 46 seconds, followed by a nice looking Niblick shot!

[Blade Junkie]

Hope everyone at Mid Pines is having a good time ... I've been looking at pics of the event on facebook and the course looks great!


Weather in UK has been terrible the last couple of weeks, so I've been on a hickory club hunt instead of playing, and have struck gold in the search for a playable original sand club.

I have managed to find myself an original [b]George Nicoll Howitzer[/b], stamped with W.West Special West Sussex GC. West Sussex GC is about 18 miles away from where I live, and I rang them to discover that "W.West" was Walter West who was the club's first pro back when it was formed in 1930/31 ! I have never played there, so this is now on my agenda for next year - with hickory of course!

[url="http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/productdetails.asp?id=71"]http://www.top100gol...tails.asp?id=71[/url]

The Howitzer is 35.5", weighs total club weight 510g and I estimate the swingweight at about F1. It feels very nice to swing, although I haven't hit a ball with it yet. The flange is w-i-d-e ... 1 1/8th inches across !

Here are some pics.

[attachment=1943504:The Howitzer.jpg]


I understand from previous posts on here (e.g. Tad's thread on his reproduction Howitzer, Domine Sander and MacGregor OA/8B) that this is a very rare club, with only maybe 3 others that are known about.

Stixman told me that Roger Hill, who wrote the George Nicoll book with Pete Georgiady, plays with one of these clubs himself.

Can't wait to try it out !

[stixman]

Super club, Geoff. Thanks for showing us. It has the look of the Ironman about it. Look forward to hearing how it performs.

I have a new Dominie which differs slightly from the one I've posted on here previously. I'll measure it up and post some photos etc. If someone could do the same with an Ironman we can get a comparison of all those early SWs in the same place

[stixman]

[quote name='stixman' timestamp='1384077991' post='8126584']
Super club, Geoff. Thanks for showing us. It has the look of the Ironman about it. Look forward to hearing how it performs.

I have a new Dominie which differs slightly from the one I've posted on here previously. I'll measure it up and post some photos etc. If someone could do the same with an Ironman we can get a comparison of all those early SWs in the same place
[/quote]

I'm not trying to corner the market in Dominie Sanders, but the shinier of the two is the new arrival. For a small production run there are some interesting differences. The 'shiny' one is the more recent product and differs in that the hosel is 0.25 in longer, the blade is 0.125 in deeper and the toe of the sole has been chamfered finer. Overall there is a weight loss of some 10 grams. Also, Tad take note, the Danga wood shaft is a bleached pale version compared to the more usual two tone dark mahogany colour.
Loft of both around 54-55 degrees, weight overall 565 and 575 grams, SW somewher up in the F regions! My earlier one is a terrific player all around the green and beach, the new arrival hasn't seen my golf course yet but it looks the real deal

[Blade Junkie]

Those are beauties Chris!

[Ironmaster Oddities]

Interesting, Chis.
Does the club with the darker colored shaft have a cork grip? It looks different than the other niblick. I was asking because I noticed in copies of an early 20th century US hickory clubmaker, there was a choice of leather or some sort of a grip referred to as Kork. (H&B)
Also, the reverse of the stampings is curious to me? just makes the club Maybe one club maker was left-handed and the other right-handed.

[stixman]

[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1384288191' post='8138766']
Interesting, Chis.
Does the club with the darker colored shaft have a cork grip? It looks different than the other niblick. I was asking because I noticed in copies of an early 20th century US hickory clubmaker, there was a choice of leather or some sort of a grip referred to as Kork. (H&B)
Also, the reverse of the stampings is curious to me? just makes the club Maybe one club maker was left-handed and the other right-handed.
[/quote]


Thanks Bob,
No, the grips on both are leather and not original.

The markings on the new shiny version appear to have been squeezed on, there is barely enough room for the script which in one or two places is deformed
.
Also, on both clubs reads the legend 'Made in Gt. Britain' which is odd. At that time much store was set on clubs being made in Scotland, home of golf. Now, why would Gibsons of Kinghorn, Fife , Bonnie Scotland promote their club as made in the UK? Maybe Tad knows where these might have been forged.

[Bella Woods]

Geoff:

Just got back from North Carolina - were you online during the auction Sunday?

A lot of the items went for some pretty high prices - Bella did snag one lot though
(a 7 club grouping of Tom Stewart irons). The 3 flanged Tom Stewart Niblicks sold
for about $1,900 each - I hear all to the same buyer in Sweden. I think the Ouimet
club went for $8,000. I thought it was a pretty successful auction for the sellers.

Stixman:

I got to see Tads Danga wood clubs (woods and irons)in Mid Pines - he played
some of them too. Nice pick up on the new Dominie Sander.....

[bajadulce]

[quote name='Blade Junkie' timestamp='1383629490' post='8103678']I just thought it was funny that the camera guy focussed on me rather than the infinitesimally more skilled tour player I was playing with - lol.[/quote]Well you have a really nice looking swing! I don't read lips well, but the guy @ 0:20 looks like he says "Oh S-h-i-t" after skying his shot?

[quote name='Blade Junkie' timestamp='1384074719' post='8126548']...I have managed to find myself an original [b]George Nicoll Howitzer[/b], stamped with W.West Special West Sussex GC. West Sussex GC is about 18 miles away from where I live, and I rang them to discover that "W.West" was Walter West who was the club's first pro back when it was formed in 1930/31 ! I have never played there, so this is now on my agenda for next year - with hickory of course!
...Can't wait to try it out !
[/quote]Hope the club works out for you and fun history!

The 2 niblicks that stixman posted have that great leading edge that isn't too far ahead of the hosel like a lot of the clubs I've seen. The newer one looks like it has even less "onset". Super lookin' clubs!

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1384307426' post='8140388']... The 3 flanged Tom Stewart Niblicks sold
for about $1,900 each[/quote] Wow, are these going into a museum or something?

[stixman]

Good observation about the 'onset', right on the money. They are very playable in spite of the weight, (or, at least I find them so!)

It's quite possible that these will go as players. Swedish hickory golf is very sophisticated and they really appreciate original equipment.

[majic]

Stix the light color is not all that rare but most had a darker color. Danga is great. Wish i could get some. Tad

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1384307426' post='8140388']
A lot of the items went for some pretty high prices - Bella did snag one lot though
(a 7 club grouping of Tom Stewart irons). The 3 flanged Tom Stewart Niblicks sold
for about $1,900 each - I hear all to the same buyer in Sweden. I think the Ouimet
club went for $8,000. I thought it was a pretty successful auction for the sellers.
[/quote]

I do not think that hickory golf is on the agenda. Think I'll continue to work on bringing back 70's/80's fashions.

[Bella Woods]

Scooter:

????????????????

This is a hickory golf post......

[ScooterMcTavish]

You guys had me interested until I saw the price tag....

Love the outfits.

[bajadulce]

I read on the SoHG tournament page that Tad won the Super Senior Net Player of the Year! Congrats.

Scoots, dunno what to say about the $$ of clubs. Some people are really really into clubs I suppose and $ is all relative. Myself, I prob spent close to $1000 putting together hickory sets for myself, wife, as well as a 2 additonal loaner sets that I tote along in case I get paired w/ someone who wants to try out hickory. So about $20-30 dollars a club which is a lot considering the condition they were in. Mostly I bought online tho as don't know too many hickory folk or where one would even look for clubs. Quite a few clubs were losers (esp niblicks) and ended up recycling the shafts and having to buy others, but am pretty satisfied w/ set now. I read that "the chase is never over", but for me it feels like it is... I think.

[stixman]

Scoots, you hook stuff out of the dumpster and 'play' with it.
This is pretty much how the BGCS over here did things until Ralph and Randy showed up. Some of them still do. The more whipping hanging off, the more slick the grips the better. Loose hosels, warped shafts were just the thing to cement that 'Silly Oaf' image from P G Wodehouse. The photos from your side of the pond seem to show more of that style of dressing up than we are comfortable with, but , different folks, different strokes...OK with me.
Personally, I'm with the Swedish guys, dressing up is of marginal interest, but finding out how this equipment played when at it's best, what the potential is with a modern ball and, of course, seeing how you stack up against those master manipulators of yesteryear, that's the buzz.
'course to do that you have to get the best original equipment, it's scarce, and that's what costs, but no reason at all why you shouldn't enjoy yourself in the 'Hickory Hacker' tradition, costs next to nothing!

[ScooterMcTavish]

Hey bajadulce and stix, thanks for the encouraging words. Problem is, I never see hickory around here anywhere.

I once bought a butter knife 5i that I thought was hickory to chip with, then I found out that the club companies were putting a brown hickory-like wrap on the steel shafts.

Possibly the "newness" of where I live plays into this, as the first golf course built around here is likely barely 100 years old, and most were built with the golf boom of the 50s.

I need to go hang out with Kirasdad for the next five months in SoCal. He's got good weather, and hickory!

[Kirasdad]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1384609108' post='8157608']
Hey bajadulce and stix, thanks for the encouraging words. Problem is, I never see hickory around here anywhere.

I once bought a butter knife 5i that I thought was hickory to chip with, then I found out that the club companies were putting a brown hickory-like wrap on the steel shafts.

Possibly the "newness" of where I live plays into this, as the first golf course built around here is likely barely 100 years old, and most were built with the golf boom of the 50s.

I need to go hang out with Kirasdad for the next five months in SoCal. He's got good weather, and hickory!
[/quote]

Anytime. Shoot me a PM and we're on the tee.

[Kirasdad]

[quote name='stixman' timestamp='1384506627' post='8152192']
Scoots, you hook stuff out of the dumpster and 'play' with it.
This is pretty much how the BGCS over here did things until Ralph and Randy showed up. Some of them still do. The more whipping hanging off, the more slick the grips the better. Loose hosels, warped shafts were just the thing to cement that 'Silly Oaf' image from P G Wodehouse. The photos from your side of the pond seem to show more of that style of dressing up than we are comfortable with, but , different folks, different strokes...OK with me.
Personally, I'm with the Swedish guys, dressing up is of marginal interest, but finding out how this equipment played when at it's best, what the potential is with a modern ball and, of course, seeing how you stack up against those master manipulators of yesteryear, that's the buzz.
'course to do that you have to get the best original equipment, it's scarce, and that's what costs, but no reason at all why you shouldn't enjoy yourself in the 'Hickory Hacker' tradition, costs next to nothing!


[/quote]

Yes, I'm with the Swedes as well. I mean I have a couple of pairs of plus fours, and the shirt and tie ensemble, and I wear them to the big events, US Hickory Open, etc. but I don't know...sometimes it gets a little precious. The guys that run the SoHG are fine fellows and put a great deal of time growing the sport, but if we want you go young, and I think we do, we have to stop looking like cute Christmas decorations and be a little more hip. If I wanted to be a reenactor I'd go put on my Union uniform and grab the old Enfield and head to Gettysburg and pop a couple of Rebs, (virtually speaking of course). I'm much more into the actual golf, especially the authentic gear and how it plays. Across the ground in most instances, rather then in the air. On a links course a long iron is a necessity and not a unplayable hindrance. "Club head speed is too low, you must have a hybrid" doesn't come into play because you WANT to hit your cleek or mid iron 8 feet off the ground.
Also in tune with you Stix that it doesn't have to be expensive. One playable brassie can be a daunting find, but everything else can be had pretty cheap. There are tons of "commons" out there that play just as well as a Stewart. They can be had really inexpensively at yard sales, flea markets and the like.

[bajadulce]

Christmas decorations is pretty harsh John! Tho would agree those bright colored plaid plus-fours that look like cheap Italian Deli table cloths can be a bit much on the eyes!

I am starting to realize tho that by not wearing knickers and the "costume", I am ruining the fun for others and will try to go along w/ the program in the future before I get banned from events for being a poor sport!. And lately I find myself wearing a long sleeve button shirt and belt at the minimum even when I play casually w/ the hickories @ the local muni. ... So I guess there's hope for even the hopeless.

Got a chance to measure the swing weight of my brassie @ GolfMart down in Monterey. Looks like I am going to need to take off the plate and drill out some of that fishing putty epoxied under there. [b]It measured E9![/b] YIKES. But I hit it straight (relatively) and hit it plenty far? Should I even mess w/ it? Guess don't have to remove much to bring it back to High D/Low E range? Standardish length shaft.

[Blade Junkie]

[quote name='bajadulce' timestamp='1384802504' post='8167696']
Christmas decorations is pretty harsh John! Tho would agree those bright colored plaid plus-fours that look like cheap Italian Deli table cloths can be a bit much on the eyes!

I am starting to realize tho that by not wearing knickers etc, I am ruining the fun for others and will try to go along w/ the program in the future before I get banned from events for being a poor sport!. And lately I find myself wearing a long sleeve button shirt and belt at the minimum even when I play casually w/ the hickories @ the local muni. ... So I guess there's hope for even the hopeless.
[attachment=1953876:CA_Open.png]
Who's to say golfers didn't wear shorts in California back in the Hickory days? .... No? Prob not.

Got a chance to measure the swing weight of my brassie @ GolfMart down in Monterey. Looks like I am going to need to take off the plate and drill out some of that fishing putty epoxied under there. [b]It measured F1![/b] YIKES. But I hit it straight (relatively) and hit it plenty far? Should I even mess w/ it? Guess don't have to remove much to bring it back to High D/Low E range? Standardish length shaft.
[/quote]

You must have forearms like popeye Steve !

This link says 2g of headweight per swingweight point. http://advancedballstriking.com/Swing_weights.pdf Don't know if that would apply to hickory as well as steel though ?

[Ironmaster Oddities]

Baja,

[color=#ff0000]IF it ain't broke, don't fix it.[/color]

Uncle Bob

[Bella Woods]

Stixman:

I would like to say one thing about what you brought up recently. I highly doubt
that in the days of yore golfers were playing with slick grips, warped shafts,
loose whipping and loose hosels.......unless they had to for some reason. Personally
I find the really nice originals about the same playability wise to the replicas.

The first Golf Collectors Society hickory tournament I played in (years ago) I was pulled
aside by my playing partner after the round and "told" that I was not playing with period
equipment because I had some replicas in my bag....... He did have the clubs you mentioned
and could not hit them anywhere on the face of the planet earth - but he was playing "real
hickory clubs". I have come to the conclusion that he was playing "real" hickory clubs,
just ones in bad need of repair/replacement which would have been the course of action back
in the day too.

I do agree with you on the dress, I don't mind a shirt and tie - but I could do without the
knickers (as opposed to "pants" in general).

I think you are spot on with the "buzz". Its all about discovering how and why, and trying
to "master" the old game, in the old way, on the old courses.


Edit: That was more than one thing......

[stixman]

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1384820859' post='8169278']
Stixman:

I would like to say one thing about what you brought up recently. I highly doubt
that in the days of yore golfers were playing with slick grips, warped shafts,
loose whipping and loose hosels.......unless they had to for some reason. Personally
I find the really nice originals about the same playability wise to the replicas.

The first Golf Collectors Society hickory tournament I played in (years ago) I was pulled
aside by my playing partner after the round and "told" that I was not playing with period
equipment because I had some replicas in my bag....... He did have the clubs you mentioned
and could not hit them anywhere on the face of the planet earth - but he was playing "real
hickory clubs". I have come to the conclusion that he was playing "real" hickory clubs,
just ones in bad need of repair/replacement which would have been the course of action back
in the day too.

I do agree with you on the dress, I don't mind a shirt and tie - but I could do without the
knickers (as opposed to "pants" in general).

I think you are spot on with the "buzz". Its all about discovering how and why, and trying
to "master" the old game, in the old way, on the old courses.


Edit: That was more than one thing......
[/quote]


We agree.

Hopefully I made it clear that I was referring to the British Golf Collectors Society (BGCS) and the vogue in place when I joined in 1996.

I held up to them the image of my grandfather, who was a scratch golfer in Birmingham, (England), and how he was fastidious about how he presented and prepared himself. He wouldn't have dreamt of playing with slick grips, whipping hanging off etc.
I repeat, it wasn't until Randy and Ralph showed up for the Scottish Hickories that the message was driven home that performance and preparation are powerfully linked.
At that time I was a voice in the UK wilderness (not an unfamiliar condition), until reinforcements from your side showed up. It didn't go down well with the BGCS Old Guard, some of whom can still be heard chuntering.

On a sartorial note, the ubiquitous use of knickers is factually inaccurate in an historical sense, Pants (aka trousers in UK speak) were commonly worn; James Braid was never seen in knickers, always a suit. Jackets were often discarded. In Sweden in the early years white suits with pants were commonplace.

[Blade Junkie]

[quote name='stixman' timestamp='1384853478' post='8171238']
[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1384820859' post='8169278']
Stixman:

I would like to say one thing about what you brought up recently. I highly doubt
that in the days of yore golfers were playing with slick grips, warped shafts,
loose whipping and loose hosels.......unless they had to for some reason. Personally
I find the really nice originals about the same playability wise to the replicas.

The first Golf Collectors Society hickory tournament I played in (years ago) I was pulled
aside by my playing partner after the round and "told" that I was not playing with period
equipment because I had some replicas in my bag....... He did have the clubs you mentioned
and could not hit them anywhere on the face of the planet earth - but he was playing "real
hickory clubs". I have come to the conclusion that he was playing "real" hickory clubs,
just ones in bad need of repair/replacement which would have been the course of action back
in the day too.

I do agree with you on the dress, I don't mind a shirt and tie - but I could do without the
knickers (as opposed to "pants" in general).

I think you are spot on with the "buzz". Its all about discovering how and why, and trying
to "master" the old game, in the old way, on the old courses.


Edit: That was more than one thing......
[/quote]


We agree.

Hopefully I made it clear that I was referring to the British Golf Collectors Society (BGCS) and the vogue in place when I joined in 1996.

I held up to them the image of my grandfather, who was a scratch golfer in Birmingham, (England), and how he was fastidious about how he presented and prepared himself. He wouldn't have dreamt of playing with slick grips, whipping hanging off etc.
I repeat, it wasn't until Randy and Ralph showed up for the Scottish Hickories that the message was driven home that performance and preparation are powerfully linked.
At that time I was a voice in the UK wilderness (not an unfamiliar condition), until reinforcements from your side showed up. It didn't go down well with the BGCS Old Guard, some of whom can still be heard chuntering.

On a sartorial note, the ubiquitous use of knickers is factually inaccurate in an historical sense, Pants (aka trousers in UK speak) were commonly worn; James Braid was never seen in knickers, always a suit. Jackets were often discarded. In Sweden in the early years white suits with pants were commonplace.
[/quote]

Chris

Sounds like your grandfather was one hell of a player ! Did your father play as well ? I am the only golfer in my family, even if I extend it out as far as second cousins. I am quite envious of people that play with brothers and fathers etc etc.


On the subject of jackets, that is one of the quirky rules of the BGCS at the English Hickory Open, where my understanding is that if you DON'T play in a jacket then you have to take a 2-shot penalty. Seems even more ridiculous to me than the pre-1935 equipment rule. Are you allowed to take the jacket off or must you wear it for every shot on all 18 holes ?

I am a fan of Plus Twos, but I wouldn't be seen dead in volumninous Plus Fours or "Knickers". If I am playing alone or in Club Comps with my hickory bats, then it's normal golfing attire for me. If I am playing with another hickory player who does the period clothing, then I'll don the gear.

One thing about the clothing is that it does draw the attention to the fact that you are playing hickory clubs! I played a practice round before the Goodwood Revival and people stopped in their cars to watch us play. That just doesn't happen if you aren't wearing the period attire. So in the sense of attracting curiosity and interest in the hickory game, I think it is a good thing.

[Kirasdad]

[quote name='Blade Junkie' timestamp='1384854187' post='8171244']
[quote name='stixman' timestamp='1384853478' post='8171238']
[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1384820859' post='8169278']
Stixman:

I would like to say one thing about what you brought up recently. I highly doubt
that in the days of yore golfers were playing with slick grips, warped shafts,
loose whipping and loose hosels.......unless they had to for some reason. Personally
I find the really nice originals about the same playability wise to the replicas.

The first Golf Collectors Society hickory tournament I played in (years ago) I was pulled
aside by my playing partner after the round and "told" that I was not playing with period
equipment because I had some replicas in my bag....... He did have the clubs you mentioned
and could not hit them anywhere on the face of the planet earth - but he was playing "real
hickory clubs". I have come to the conclusion that he was playing "real" hickory clubs,
just ones in bad need of repair/replacement which would have been the course of action back
in the day too.

I do agree with you on the dress, I don't mind a shirt and tie - but I could do without the
knickers (as opposed to "pants" in general).

I think you are spot on with the "buzz". Its all about discovering how and why, and trying
to "master" the old game, in the old way, on the old courses.


Edit: That was more than one thing......
[/quote]


We agree.

Hopefully I made it clear that I was referring to the British Golf Collectors Society (BGCS) and the vogue in place when I joined in 1996.

I held up to them the image of my grandfather, who was a scratch golfer in Birmingham, (England), and how he was fastidious about how he presented and prepared himself. He wouldn't have dreamt of playing with slick grips, whipping hanging off etc.
I repeat, it wasn't until Randy and Ralph showed up for the Scottish Hickories that the message was driven home that performance and preparation are powerfully linked.
At that time I was a voice in the UK wilderness (not an unfamiliar condition), until reinforcements from your side showed up. It didn't go down well with the BGCS Old Guard, some of whom can still be heard chuntering.

On a sartorial note, the ubiquitous use of knickers is factually inaccurate in an historical sense, Pants (aka trousers in UK speak) were commonly worn; James Braid was never seen in knickers, always a suit. Jackets were often discarded. In Sweden in the early years white suits with pants were commonplace.
[/quote]

Chris


I am a fan of Plus Twos, but I wouldn't be seen dead in volumninous Plus Fours or "Knickers". If I am playing alone or in Club Comps with my hickory bats, then it's normal golfing attire for me. If I am playing with another hickory player who does the period clothing, then I'll don the gear.

One thing about the clothing is that it does draw the attention to the fact that you are playing hickory clubs! I played a practice round before the Goodwood Revival and people stopped in their cars to watch us play. That just doesn't happen if you aren't wearing the period attire. So in the sense of attracting curiosity and interest in the hickory game, I think it is a good thing.
[/quote]

Yes, over here on the colonial side of the pond, knickers are all but required in SoHG events, I mean they won't DQ you if you don't wear them, but you can feel the disapproval. The purpose, as you stated is to draw attention, grow the hickory game, etc. I certainly believe it draws attention, but growing the game, I don't know. the jury is still out for me on that one.

Historically I agree pants far exceed plus fours in usage. Some sort of pants were employed from before Old Tom to Vardon, Ray and Francis Quimet. Then about 10-15 years of knickers and then back to pants to the present. So the "plus four era" if one wants to call it that, is maybe 15 years. A two shot penalty for no jacket?! That's just goofy.

[Bella Woods]

On the pants/Knickers/Plus Fours etc subject - I have seen many pictures of
Bobby Jones in a group setting where he was the only one who had "knickers" on,
everybody else had on pants.

I think Kirasdad is right - knickers/plus fours seen to have been popular during
the 1920a and 1930s. Most older pictures (1900 and earlier to 1920) seem to have
players in pants only for the most point.

As far as SOHG - I have not seen any objections to say shirt, tie, period golf hat
and pants, or, modern golf shirt/sweater, knickers and period hat. I think the hat
may be more of a issue than the pants/knickers etc.

[Bella Woods]

Stixman, Blade - All non USA Golfers in general:

What is your opinion on playing a Driving Iron
(Driving Iron itself, Cleek, Driving Mashie, 1 Iron
or whatever it may be called) off the tee on a mid to
shorter length par 4 as opposed to say, a Spoon or Baffy?

I have become convinced that assuming you are hitting the
ball decently - it may be the better play in most instances.

How many woods do you carry as opposed to irons? Since I play
my hickory bag in "official" Publinx events - I try to carry
the legal max - 14 clubs. 4 Woods 9 irons and a putter. I can
get by easily with 12 clubs though and all gaps are covered
degree wise.

Just wondering how the courses/terrain differ in the make up
of the set.

[stixman]

Bella, that is one of the all-time great hickory questions and subjects for debate, worthy (in hickory circles anyway), of a thread of it's own. I'm out to play in 20 minutes and I'll get back to you this evening.