Playing Hickory Golf

[rileyj]

Nice rounds gentlemen!

I'm curious... if the rule of thumb is 1.5x handicap for hickory vs. modern...what do you think it is hickory vs. classic (persimmon/blades w/ steel shafts)? Pretty much the same? 1.2:1.0 hickory vs. classic?

I play a lot of persimmon w/ steel and I'm wondering if I went up against a hickory player w/ exactly the same "standard" handicap...should I give a stroke or 2?

[stixman]

The British Golf Collectors Society use the following adjustments which reflect the relative skill levels which players bring to the hickory game. Note that the BGCS only permit the use of original clubs and do not have the benefit derived from modern replicas.

Handicap Adjustment
Professionals None
0 - 3 3
4 - 8 4
9 - 14 5
15- 20 6
21+ 7

It could be argued that Persimmon and Blades players are known to bring a higher standard of skill and awareness to the game than players with modern equipment. It would therefore be flattering to the P&B player to give his hickory partner-in-crime more shots by way of differential. LOL

[Blade Junkie]

[quote name='rileyj' timestamp='1377838558' post='7769881']
Nice rounds gentlemen!

I'm curious... if the rule of thumb is 1.5x handicap for hickory vs. modern...what do you think it is hickory vs. classic (persimmon/blades w/ steel shafts)? Pretty much the same? 1.2:1.0 hickory vs. classic?

I play a lot of persimmon w/ steel and I'm wondering if I went up against a hickory player w/ exactly the same "standard" handicap...should I give a stroke or 2?
[/quote]

Hi Riley, in my personal experience and score history of playing modern vs classic vs hickory, I see very little difference in scores. If I swing well I score well, if I swing badly I score badly, and what is in the bag doesn't make much difference. That may just be me though

Probably the type of course would be the clincher - if there are a lot of forced carries then the generally lower ball flight of hickories would be a disadvantage so some compensation for that might be appropriate. If it's a very long course, say >6600 yards, then ditto.

If it's windy, I'd give him nothing lol.


[quote name='stixman' timestamp='1377847080' post='7770099']
Note that the BGCS only permit the use of original clubs and do not have the benefit derived from modern replicas.

[/quote]

Chris - replicas vs originals is an interesting, and I imagine fairly emotive debate. Having dipped my toe into hickory with replicas, I've just started building an original play set, and I'm going to be interested to see how they compare, and to what extent there is any benefit of one vs the other.

My first impressions with my "new" original driver is that I don't think there is any disadvantage at all for me vs Tad's Star OA model. Will be interesting to see if that holds for irons, though I note that most hickory players I have met/played with do seem to use the more "playable" originals anyway, the Maxwells and the later Stewarts, flanged niblicks and so on. The thin soled sharp-edged niblicks that dig like crazy are a lot lot harder to use, but I haven't played with many regular original hickory players that use those!

Original long/mid/mashie irons that I have hit in the past (I'm thinking of the irons in one of your rental play sets that I used at Goodwood Revival 2011 for example) I think went pretty well. I recall hitting the 2-iron over 200 yards pretty consistently. In that event, what players seem to struggle with is not tee to green, but the short game, pitching, chipping and putting, with clubs that play very differently from modern putters and wedges. But then these guys are once a year hickory players, so that is understandable I guess. Most casual players are surprised how well they can hit the ball with 80-100 year old clubs. I played with Chris Dyson last year, good solid 6 handicapper who has won the Sky-televised Trilby Tour event in the past, and he was in disbelief that he was hitting his 3 or 4 hickory loaner clubs better than he hits his custom-fitted Callaway iron set.

Will be fun to try the comparison anyway. I can see myself alternating rounds with each set and seeing how the scores and ball-striking compares ...

[majic]

Let me make a comment on play with various clubs and handicapping. First of all the Society of Hickory Golfers spent 3 years studying the play of hickory golf and how to "handicap" players for net competition. We tried formulas, adding strokes like BGCS and other ideas but found there is no good way other then to have a handicap system. When the BGCS, i am a member, decided to do something regarding a system they did not consult with the leading authority in hickory play, The Society of Hickory Golfers but instead went down their own path. I was told they were pushed into this because of a certain player using St Andrews Golf reproductions was winning net events. Maybe just a story but believable. They had just also banned reproductions. i know there system has not worked well. i have seen some winning net totals and was surprised by low net scores. Sometimes the same can happen over here. The best way is by posting scores and developing a hickory handicap.
I have found that most players using good and i mean good antique or reproduction clubs will shoot very close to their modern handicap if they play from appropriate distance with hickories. The problem comes when casual hickory players using bad equipment play and shoot much higher. We all know that players in the old days would not play with loose heads, sharp leading edges, worn out grips and C-1 clubs so why would someone today. Good hickories played will produce good scores.
Golf in the BGCS is much more casual then here in the USA and Sweden and other places. Maybe their system works for them. I cannot speak for them.
Regarding Reproductions and Antiques. If a player starts with reproductions and has a good experience they are very apt to try to build an Antique set. This is fact proven here in the USA. If they start with a bad antique set they may not play again with hickory. As you know I make and sell in my mind the best reproduction hickory clubs made anywhere. I see where players that have bought my clubs come back to me for advice in what antiques to buy. Blade Junkie. Bella and many others. What I am saying is organizations like the BGCS and EGCS (European Golf Collectors) are missing the difference. We are talking bout playing. Their existence is "Collecting" not playing like the SoHG here in USA.
If they would embrace the playing like the Golf Collectors Society here in the USA has finally they would see Reproduction hickories are good for their organizations. Players end up becoming collectors.
I cannot change their thinking but other people can and i hope that those people will help to convince all hickory golfers/collectors to embrace reproductions from my company, Louisville Golf and StAndrews Golf. This is the best way to serve the playing of hickories.
Finally Rileyj I think a good hickory player would compete with you very well. Tad

[stixman]

[quote name='majic' timestamp='1377880419' post='7772071']
Let me make a comment on play with various clubs and handicapping. First of all the Society of Hickory Golfers spent 3 years studying the play of hickory golf and how to "handicap" players for net competition. We tried formulas, adding strokes like BGCS and other ideas but found there is no good way other then to have a handicap system. When the BGCS, i am a member, decided to do something regarding a system they did not consult with the leading authority in hickory play, The Society of Hickory Golfers but instead went down their own path. I was told they were pushed into this because of a certain player using St Andrews Golf reproductions was winning net events. Maybe just a story but believable. They had just also banned reproductions. i know there system has not worked well. i have seen some winning net totals and was surprised by low net scores. Sometimes the same can happen over here. The best way is by posting scores and developing a hickory handicap.
I have found that most players using good and i mean good antique or reproduction clubs will shoot very close to their modern handicap if they play from appropriate distance with hickories. The problem comes when casual hickory players using bad equipment play and shoot much higher. We all know that players in the old days would not play with loose heads, sharp leading edges, worn out grips and C-1 clubs so why would someone today. Good hickories played will produce good scores.
Golf in the BGCS is much more casual then here in the USA and Sweden and other places. Maybe their system works for them. I cannot speak for them.
Regarding Reproductions and Antiques. If a player starts with reproductions and has a good experience they are very apt to try to build an Antique set. This is fact proven here in the USA. If they start with a bad antique set they may not play again with hickory. As you know I make and sell in my mind the best reproduction hickory clubs made anywhere. I see where players that have bought my clubs come back to me for advice in what antiques to buy. Blade Junkie. Bella and many others. What I am saying is organizations like the BGCS and EGCS (European Golf Collectors) are missing the difference. We are talking bout playing. Their existence is "Collecting" not playing like the SoHG here in USA.
If they would embrace the playing like the Golf Collectors Society here in the USA has finally they would see Reproduction hickories are good for their organizations. Players end up becoming collectors.
I cannot change their thinking but other people can and i hope that those people will help to convince all hickory golfers/collectors to embrace reproductions from my company, Louisville Golf and StAndrews Golf. This is the best way to serve the playing of hickories.
Finally Rileyj I think a good hickory player would compete with you very well. Tad
[/quote]

Thanks,Tad, for an even handed summary. I was struggling with my own effort when yours appeared on the screen.
The St Andrews Golf player is a new one on me, I hadn't heard that.
The main beef in the BGCS is the incorrect belief that 'Replicas hit the ball further than originals, and the irons have grooves so you can better control iron play'. Also, what you say is true about the quality of originals. When I started in 1995 most of the players had clubs straight out of the sale-room, loose heads, smooth grips, whipping hanging off was pretty normal. Maybe half a dozen, led by the redoubtable John Sherwood took things seriously.
My question is, 'Can Replicas and Originals compete equally in the same hickory tournament, or do you need two divisions?'

[Bella Woods]

stixman:

Not to answer for Tad, but from my observations of the last two years of playing in many hickory tournaments here in the USA,
and playing both replica and original clubs - I don't think anybody over here thinks there should be separate divisions at all. Really,
I don't think either player (playing replicas or playing originals) think they are at a disadvantage, or think they have an advantage.

Geoff (Blade Junkie) has it right, your swing/game mean more than anything.

Maybe though - separate divisions in the UK would make it possible for the players that would like to play in the BGCS hickory events
but would not otherwise - do so if they can play the readily available replicas. Just a thought.

Long story short - my opinion is that, yes, Replicas and Originals can compete equally.

[Kirasdad]

I don't know about that Bella. I played in two US Hickory Opens fortunate to be paired with some really good players and the quiet chit chat that went on about this subject was that the general feeling, among these guys anyway, was that the reproductions are easier clubs to play consistently, and that two divisions would probably be fairer in competitions. Having said that, I think most everyone is more interested in growing the playing of hickory clubs and not raising a ruckus about it, at least at that time. My clubs are all antiques, and I compared my 1920's driver, that I strike pretty well all things considered, with a Louisville Golf Jeanie Deans in a practice round at French Lick and well, I felt the difference was fairly telling. The Jeanie Deans was considerably easier to handle. The distance is comparable, but I could tell after 4 or 5 balls that the new club would just be more consistent day to day. I know it's just an anecdotal test, two drivers, one old, one new, and just a few swings, but it makes logical sense when you think about it. Guys like Tad, really know what they are doing. He's been designing clubs for a long time for tour players and major golf companies. His and the Just's clubs are all made at the same time with shafts that are similar, tight tolerances, etc. An authentic antique set no matter how long you take to put it together, how many club shows you go to, how much mixing and matching are always going to be a little bit of a crap shoot. The guy who got me into hickory out here in California is a hickory pioneer, and he can be pretty intense on this subject. I don't think he has an objection to reproductions, but he also believes it's not a level playing field in a major tournament.

[stixman]

I think Tads observation that 'Players become collectors' is spot on and is a view which has underpinned my hickory rental business activities since 1996. It is also true that the BGCS haven't seen it that way and their 'Collectors' take on Hickory golf has undermined the development of this aspect of the game in the UK. You can see the outcomes of this in the paucity of the UK element of the field for the upcoming Grail matches and 'Home' international squads, very little new blood!

On the other hand whereas in the past I used to take the 'it's the Indian, not the Arrow' Lee Trevino line which appears to be where Tad and Bella are coming from, I find I can no longer hold this position.
Around the turn of the century most of the Replicas we saw came from Heritage Golf, later to be reborn as The St Andrews Golf Co, and their output was visually stunning, slightly over-the-top, but had a certain appeal. Playability wasn't great and shafts were pretty clumsy affairs. Later, about 2003, the late Frank Boumphrey came over for the Scottish Hickories and I had the pleasure of playing with him and trying out some Louisville clubs he brought over. I thought they were a bit clunky and numb, again visually lovely, but represented no real challenge to a set of well prepared Stewarts in terms of playability.
Since then things have changed. I speculate this is as a result of competition between suppliers of Replicas (indeed it would be astonishing if this were not so) and the development of the hickory market in the USA, Europe and Asia (which no-one talks about). The heads are better designed and manufactured, new models based on the best of the hickory era have come on stream, and shaft technology and production techniques have been revolutionised. (Quarter sawn, frequency matched etc) Meanwhile our 80/90 year old clubs have stayed fixed in their time warp.
I believe it is no longer realistic to hold to the view that 'a good swing/game' can overcome these differences.

To me, it matters little, I play my own game and respect the right of others to do likewise. It is also true that I pick the events which fit my ethos and shun those which don't. Personally I am happy to play a match/ have a knock about with anyone playing whatever clubs they choose. At 68 I'm happy to hit the half a dozen shots in a round which remind me of earlier days; it's great having a golfing ego which does not require constant massaging by industrial marketeers.

[oldschoolrocker]

All time great last comment Stix!!!

[majic]

Great comments from Stixman and Bella and the Blade Junkie. I have been making hickories for 10 years give or take. I drove over from my home in Georgia to meet up with Otey Crisman III to see if he could turn shafts. My first club was a copy of one of my Dominie Sander Gibson niblicks so i picked out a few putter shafts that felt OK and tried them. I had no idea of how to make a shaft. None. Otey did not either. To get started I took my old clubs and measured the shafts for diameters etc. I was able to get a chance to read J Victor Easts notes about making Bobby Jones clubs that Sid Matthews had in Tallahassee Florida. I was and still a huge fan of William Gibson Company of Kinghorn Scotland and in my travels i acquired company information and i tried to glean from these documents shaft info. I found after talking with Maurice Anderson of the Tom Morris Golf shop that he had travelled with his Dad in i think 1953 to the Gibson Company auction and all the company documents were destroyed so my search for the actual shaft making documents was over. Gibson you see was the largest maker of clubs and shafts and made the popular Jack White clubs.
Over the years i have found a good source of Tennessee hickory, refined my shaft turning patterns and by working with good players here in the USA i know feel I make good shafts. i don't think i can ever make a shaft as good as a Three Star Gibson. Gibson also made shafts in the late 20's early 30's called Danga wood. They are special if you find one. Lighter and powerful.
I feel that those that feel they are at a disadvantage playing old clubs versus new are mistaken or do not have good old clubs. i have played since 1989 and played with both old and new and i can tell you i still have several Gibson/Jack White old drivers that are longer then what i can make. Believe me I keep trying. I have some Gibson irons that are better then what I can make. The old clubs are out there but you have to work hard to find them and you have to be willing to spend money for them.
As i have gotten older-I am now 72-survivor of 3 strokes and heart surgery I find where I can help people is to make the older player, women or someone that just wants something to fit their swing for them. I make shafts for ladies, seniors or long drivers. The old clubs would have to be tuned to fit them and get the feel and distance. I do know that Gibson made ladies shafts and one was called a Sidera shaft and I think this wood came from Turkey. Again hard to find.
Enjoy the game. The talk over old versus new will never go away. You will always find those people in the "smoke" filled room try to bad mouth repro clubs. Same type of argument should we play Dave Browns repro ball or a ProV 1? The main thing is go out and enjoy a round with Stixman, Bella or Geoff or old Tad. I bet when were done we will have some good stories over a pint or two. Tad

[majic]

[quote name='majic' timestamp='1377962653' post='7776925']
Great comments from Stixman and Bella and the Blade Junkie. I have been making hickories for 10 years give or take. I drove over from my home in Georgia to meet up with Otey Crisman III to see if he could turn shafts. My first club was a copy of one of my Dominie Sander Gibson niblicks so i picked out a few putter shafts that felt OK and tried them. I had no idea of how to make a shaft. None. Otey did not either. To get started I took my old clubs and measured the shafts for diameters etc. I was able to get a chance to read J Victor Easts notes about making Bobby Jones clubs that Sid Matthews had in Tallahassee Florida. I was and still a huge fan of William Gibson Company of Kinghorn Scotland and in my travels i acquired company information and i tried to glean from these documents shaft info. I found after talking with Maurice Anderson of the Tom Morris Golf shop that he had travelled with his Dad in i think 1953 to the Gibson Company auction and all the company documents were destroyed so my search for the actual shaft making documents was over. Gibson you see was the largest maker of clubs and shafts and made the popular Jack White clubs.
Over the years i have found a good source of Tennessee hickory, refined my shaft turning patterns and by working with good players here in the USA i know feel I make good shafts. i don't think i can ever make a shaft as good as a Three Star Gibson. Gibson also made shafts in the late 20's early 30's called Danga wood. They are special if you find one. Lighter and powerful.
I feel that those that feel they are at a disadvantage playing old clubs versus new are mistaken or do not have good old clubs. i have played since 1989 and played with both old and new and i can tell you i still have several Gibson/Jack White old drivers that are longer then what i can make. Believe me I keep trying. I have some Gibson irons that are better then what I can make. The old clubs are out there but you have to work hard to find them and you have to be willing to spend money for them.
As i have gotten older-I am now 72-survivor of 3 strokes and heart surgery I find where I can help people is to make the older player, women or someone that just wants something to fit their swing for them. I make shafts for ladies, seniors or long drivers. The old clubs would have to be tuned to fit them and get the feel and distance. I do know that Gibson made ladies shafts and one was called a Sidera shaft and I think this wood came from Turkey. Again hard to find.
Enjoy the game. The talk over old versus new will never go away. You will always find those people in the "smoke" filled room try to bad mouth repro clubs. Same type of argument should we play Dave Browns repro ball or a ProV 1? The main thing is go out and enjoy a round with Stixman, Bella or Geoff or old Tad. I bet when were done we will have some good stories over a pint or two. Tad
[/quote]
I need to make one more informative statement about my reproductions. I started with two sets of irons and niblicks that took me around 10 years to acquire and spent thousands of dollars doing so. The best Gibson and MacGregor irons to play with in my mind. I took each head and made masters from them out of wood or a plastic resin type material. i then sent the master along with several originals to my vendor. I ultimately after my very first heads found that i had to make a one piece head and not a welded two piece like most. This way you can adjust loft and lie and they are less likely to break at the weld. I made one mistake and the next group of OA's will not have what i currently call the jigger club but it will be called the TADDY. These heads will also have numbers along with the names to make it easier for some people to pick the right club. The OA set is a combination of the OA and "B" series heads and the B are numbered and very rare. The OA's and Bobby Jones "VICTOR" heads are one piece and great copies. I think you can see the Niblicks are copies of Gibson and MacGregor. Tad

[Blade Junkie]

I think part of the charm is in all the clubs having names .. it confuses the hell out of my fourball when we're all on the tee of a par-three and they're debating what club to hit, and I come up with something like "I can't decide whether it's a Jigger or a Deep Face Mashie" ... always raises a smile and a comment like "well you're no ****ing help then!"

Or another one ... when facing a tricky shot, "I'm sure you must have some sort of bloody mashie for that!"

I like the idea of the Taddy club. A bit like a Sammy except more "robust" in design is what I imagine!

[stixman]

[quote name='Blade Junkie' timestamp='1377968736' post='7777319']
I think part of the charm is in all the clubs having names .. it confuses the hell out of my fourball when we're all on the tee of a par-three and they're debating what club to hit, and I come up with something like "I can't decide whether it's a Jigger or a Deep Face Mashie" ... always raises a smile and a comment like "well you're no ****ing help then!"

Or another one ... when facing a tricky shot, "I'm sure you must have some sort of bloody mashie for that!"

I like the idea of the Taddy club. A bit like a Sammy except more "robust" in design is what I imagine!
[/quote]

How about a 'Hot Toddy'?

[Blade Junkie]

[quote name='stixman' timestamp='1377980174' post='7777995']
[quote name='Blade Junkie' timestamp='1377968736' post='7777319']
I think part of the charm is in all the clubs having names .. it confuses the hell out of my fourball when we're all on the tee of a par-three and they're debating what club to hit, and I come up with something like "I can't decide whether it's a Jigger or a Deep Face Mashie" ... always raises a smile and a comment like "well you're no ****ing help then!"

Or another one ... when facing a tricky shot, "I'm sure you must have some sort of bloody mashie for that!"

I like the idea of the Taddy club. A bit like a Sammy except more "robust" in design is what I imagine!
[/quote]

How about a 'Hot Toddy'?
[/quote]

Or even the Mashie Homer !

[majic]

Homer Taddy?

[Bella Woods]

I for one can personally vouch for the quality of Tad's hickory shaft skills
(apparently learned over a period of many years based on his recent post).

I have a set of his reproduction clubs (the Victor Irons and his Pall Mall 3
Star Driver and Bulldog woods). I have also had him re-shaft originals when
needed - my Lowe & Campbell Brassie, a Wilson Wilsonian Driver, a Tom Stewart
Jigger and an entire set of Wright & Ditson Licensees Kro-Flite "Sweetspot"
Irons to name a few. All have been spot on for me.

One other thing regarding wood shafts - there are people that think that
the old growth hickory is superior to the new stuff, just as there are people
that think that the new shafts are superior. Same with the old forged steel as
compared to the reproduction cast models (even though they are in the forged/blade
style).

So probably true what Tad said - the argument will never go away. I guess the only
thing you can say is that the answer to the issue is........ - there is no answer,
only opinions.

[Blade Junkie]

Well I had a go at the Silver Tee Challenge with the hickories today - 7,104 yards par 71 SSS 74.

I managed 17th place out of 64 starters with 29 Stableford points (winner had 34 points). I was pleased to find myself in the buffer zone so didn't go up 0.1. Had 6 pars which was ok, but I left lots of shots out there and had an indifferent day of ball-striking overall and four 3 putts as well. Lost a couple of balls on the front nine but managed to score points on every hole on the back.

One comment that made me laugh : "The Silver Tee Challenge is very tough, so good to see you turned up with a bag packed with technology today Geoff!"

[Bella Woods]

Geoff:

Even though you were not happy with your ball striking - that is a pretty
good showing on a course of that length!

[stixman]

Great stuff, Geoff. Good to see technology is wasted on you!

See you at Goodwood in a couple of weeks, stay hot!

[Blade Junkie]

[quote name='stixman' timestamp='1378066231' post='7782251']
Great stuff, Geoff. Good to see technology is wasted on you!

See you at Goodwood in a couple of weeks, stay hot!
[/quote]

Thanks Chris. I'm certainly looking forward to the Revival event - 50 players signed up so far!

I have roped in Boris Leitzow as my partner this year (I assume you know Boris ... most people in hickory golf seem to know Boris!). We had a crazy Singles match at Goodwood in March, a halved match off scratch, in which I had to make a 5 footer on the 18th to halve the match after being 7 up (!!!) at the turn. If we can repeat our respective front/back nines that day we will certainly break the team score record lol.

[Blade Junkie]

Just noticed that a matched 1-8 iron set of Walter Hagen International hickories sold for over $1500 on US eBay tonight!

[url="http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-wood-shaft-hickory-set-of-Walter-Hagen-International-9-irons-putter-/141043739872?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMESINDXX%3AIT&nma=true&si=8kr%252Bg%252FpRXvG%252Fyd3F7QgzJ5HGhAI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc"]http://www.ebay.com/...cvip=true&rt=nc[/url]


I wonder how many sets of X-Hots or Rocketbladz will sell for that equivalent in 80 years time

[majic]

Nice set. For Hagen collector with Thompson's name this would be a good find. I hope if someone bought them to play hey reset the heads etc before hitting them. Save the shafts that way. Tad

[bajadulce]

BJunkie:
Nice job and fantastic playing, teeing it up in your modern club event!

Until we can convince the hickory enthusiasts in my region (Northern California) to join forces in a collaborative effort to get things happening in this superb golfing region, I'm just going to keep entering modern events as the lone hickory player as well.

Not to backtrack in the topic, but wanted to add some thoughts on reproduction clubs:
A bad hickory experience I would agree probably equates to a disinterested player. Myself, out of curiosity, I put together a set through ebay in the late 90's. The clubs were mostly junk (Ladies niblick & putter, loose brassie head, and a few aluminum capped irons that had no beef to them). While the experience started out fun, I was extremely erratic w/ the clubs, especially the woods, and the clubs wound up hanging in the garage for sometimes years at a time without play.

This June, I happen to come across a flyer for Eddie B's hickory tournament in Monterey and decided to pull them out again. It was only here that I met others and discovered that not all hickory clubs are equal; that a lot of clubs were mass produced and damn near unplayable. For the tournament, I couldn't even break 80 with my "junk". Now 3 months later, after a lot of sweat and labor in putting together a playable set, I somehow managed a par on the last hole of the same course for a 69. While swing adjustments for hickory are no doubt part of the new found success, I'm convinced playable clubs are the main difference. I own one reproduction club (a "niblick") while the search for an original goes on, and don't know if I'd be as bitten by the hickory bug without going through the struggles and tribulations w/ the crappy clubs had I started w/ "super" clubs, but it would have been a much easier road traveled. A road a lot would have just given up on.

[Blade Junkie]

69 gross with hickory Steve ? That is fantastic golf.

Would love to see some pics of the club set you have put together, or failing that just a description of each club!

[stixman]

+1 on BJ s comments re Bajadulce's superb hickory round.

However it illustrates perfectly the 'elephant in the room', and exactly the point I made earlier. Modern design with a hickory shaft renders original equipment at a significant disadvantage. With that wedge bajadulce would beat Randy Jensen (Hickory Tiger) 9 times out of 10, especially on the firmer courses favoured in Europe.

[Blade Junkie]

I feel the pain on how long it might take to put together a decent original play set.

I took my first steps on eBay recently and ended up with some so-called "playable" clubs with loose heads, dubious lengths vs what was stated, and a wood that snapped underneath the grip with the lightest of downward pressure on the living room carpet in the address position!

If I can fix the loose head on a Jack Innes Prestwick 3-Iron that one is at least a playable swing weight (I estimate about D3). Two other irons are coming in at B2 and B6 lol. You quickly learn what questions to ask in this endeavour!

All good fun though.

[stixman]

[quote name='Blade Junkie' timestamp='1378204125' post='7789595']
I feel the pain on how long it might take to put together a decent original play set.

I took my first steps on eBay recently and ended up with some so-called "playable" clubs with loose heads, dubious lengths vs what was stated, and a wood that snapped underneath the grip with the lightest of downward pressure on the living room carpet in the address position!

If I can fix the loose head on a Jack Innes Prestwick 3-Iron that one is at least a playable swing weight (I estimate about D3). Two other irons are coming in at B2 and B6 lol. You quickly learn what questions to ask in this endeavour!

All good fun though.
[/quote]

The moral is 'only buy from known hickory players on Ebay'. John Sherwood (far and sure) in Canterbury is a very good bet, worth paying him a visit. Hickory Longball is also good, up in Stirling. The others are mostly aware of the market for playables and are trying to get in on the act, but (let's put the best gloss on it) don't know what they are doing.
Alternatively go to a sporting goods auction and at least see what you are bidding for.

[Blade Junkie]

[quote name='stixman' timestamp='1378206526' post='7789641']
[quote name='Blade Junkie' timestamp='1378204125' post='7789595']
I feel the pain on how long it might take to put together a decent original play set.

I took my first steps on eBay recently and ended up with some so-called "playable" clubs with loose heads, dubious lengths vs what was stated, and a wood that snapped underneath the grip with the lightest of downward pressure on the living room carpet in the address position!

If I can fix the loose head on a Jack Innes Prestwick 3-Iron that one is at least a playable swing weight (I estimate about D3). Two other irons are coming in at B2 and B6 lol. You quickly learn what questions to ask in this endeavour!

All good fun though.
[/quote]

The moral is 'only buy from known hickory players on Ebay'. John Sherwood (far and sure) in Canterbury is a very good bet, worth paying him a visit. Hickory Longball is also good, up in Stirling. The others are mostly aware of the market for playables and are trying to get in on the act, but (let's put the best gloss on it) don't know what they are doing.
Alternatively go to a sporting goods auction and at least see what you are bidding for.
[/quote]

Thanks Chris! You're in good company as Tad has also recommended Scott (Hickory_Longball) to me, and as Stirling is en route to WHO for me at the end of the month, I have arranged a visit to view some of his stock. Will look out for John Sherwood on eBay as well. Canterbury would be doable as a day trip.

It's a shame the UK doesn't seem to have the vintage club fairs like the Americans have. Might have to try a visit to Mullocks when they are next doing Golf.

[bajadulce]

@ low scores:
thnx for the kudos. To be fair, [url="http://www.pggolflinks.com/"]Pacific Grove[/url] in Monterey, is probably one of the easiest courses you'll ever play (especially the ocean 9). But golf needs easy courses too! I was just pointing out the nearly 15+ shot difference in scoring compared to my "junk" clubs earlier that summer.

@ pics/details of my current play set:
Sure! Fun. Rather than blow up this thread more so than I already have and spare everyone w/ my ramblings, I've created a "[url="http://www.norcalhickory.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13"]what's in the bag[/url]" thread on the NorCalHickory.com website. So some pics/info there if interested.

Definitely the niblick is something you have to hold in your hands to buy. I'm looking forward to attending my first trade show in Huntington Beach in October! Hopefully can find an original niblick to replace my reproduction without spending an arm and a leg.

[Blade Junkie]

[quote name='bajadulce' timestamp='1378232071' post='7791629']

@ pics/details of my current play set:
Sure! Fun. Rather than blow up this thread more so than I already have and spare everyone w/ my ramblings, I've created a "[url="http://norcalhickory.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13"]what's in the bag[/url]" thread on the NorCalHickory.com website.
[/quote]

Very interesting WITB ... Thanks for posting the link - I enjoyed reading that