Playing Hickory Golf

[teevons]

[quote name='Blade Junkie' timestamp='1349944768' post='5779869']
Thanks Wally, Fred and Chris!

Just got back after an 11 hour return journey so will update more later on.

This was a wonderful event to play in and one I'd highly recommend to seasoned campaigners and hickory newbies alike.

Chris you are correct that St Andrews Golf Company were the sponsor. It was a 'tad' amusing to accept my prizes from Ewan Glen the St Andrews Golf CEO, and then thank Tad in my speech, with Mike Just of Louisville Golf also sat in the audience!

The scratch champion was Rick Valentine who edged Perry Somers in a high quality 6 hole play off in the gathering gloom. They'd tied at 156 over 36 holes, and Rick was 1 under in the play off, Perry just lipping out his par putt on the final play off hole after going through the back of the green from a pig of a lie in the middle of the fairway.

In the interests of balance, I should say that it looked like Rick was bagging the St Andrews reproductions of the 1928 Series Tom Stewart irons, and that the Louisville clubs in Mike's and his USA friends' bags looked very good as well!
[/quote]


How many yards were the courses played, thanks

[majic]

I am very glad that Blade Junkie won using my Star OA irons and Pall Mall woods and the Chicopee putter we just reproduced. Tad Moore Hickory Golf www.tadmoore.com is the largest producer of reproduction hickories for play in the World.
Most hickory golf in the USA is played between 8100 and 5600 yards. this depends on the course. In Scotland the courses play much "faster" and i remember playing 6300 yards easily.
Lionel runs a great event and this year more American players went over for the event. I understand they had a great time. Tad

[shannock2]

I'm a new member and just found this topic. My uncle, George Johnson, was a golf teacher and club-maker at West Runton in Norfolk UK. As a young man he played with Vardon and Braid. He only made hickory-shafted clubs - he reckoned that steel shafts were but a passing fad!! He wouldn't make a club until he'd seen the customer swing. I worked on Saturday's and holidays in his club-making hut from age 11 until I was old enough to be a caddy - he made my first set - driver, spoon, long-iron, mid-iron, mashie, mashie-niblick, niblick and putter.

The persimmon heads for the woods all came roughly shaped and we'd select one with the lie that suited the customer. Liquid lead was poured in the back of the head in a position to suit the customer's swing.

Irons came-ready made but, again, were adjusted to suit the customer. They weren't plated so had to be cleaned and oiled after every game - the caddies job! The grips were wound leather and needed to be rasped up a bit to stop them from slipping - I always kept in my pocket a snuff tin with a piece of bees-wax in it to rub on the grips. If you find one of his irons there'll be a gremlin on the back and G.Johnson, W.Runton stamped on it.

Swinging a hickory-shafted club was different from an iron-shafted club. There was a massive amount of torque. You could hold the head of the club in the left hand and the tip of the shaft in your right and twist the head backwards and forwards. Consequently, it was necessary to turn the wrists anti-clockwise at impact to square the club-face. I had massive problems when, after his death, I switched to steel shafts.

There was a book published about his teaching method (which only applied to hickory-shafted clubs). The book is called 'From Rabbit to Tiger' by J. Dunn, published in 1955 and is still available from Amazon.

[Blade Junkie]

The link to the results is now up on the official site -> http://www.worldhickoryopen.com/2012.html

Here is the write-up from Lionel: http://www.worldhickoryopen.com/index.html

We played Montifieth at about 6,100 yards I am told, and Carnoustie Burnside was off the Yellow tees at around 6,028 yards.

The weather, for October in Scotland, could only be described as glorious, with bright sunshine on both days and light winds.

I have some photos that I'll post in due course.

I was playing off 15 and shot 89,91 to win the handicap division with a nett score of 150. I left plenty of shots out there - had two birdies in the Burnside round, and also three shanks! The birdies were quite diverse, one on the 4th via the longest putt I have ever holed (about 72 feet) and the other on the 10th by knocking a spade mashie to 10 inches. I was also pin high on the 4th Hole (South America) in two shots with a driver and a spoon that covered 460 yards. My putt up onto the green ended up back at my feet though, and I was lucky to escape with a bogey on that one. Some of the toughest holes on Carnoustie Burnside were the par threes. The 163 yard 9th is like an upturned bowl. One group, a fourball, posted 26 shots between them on that one, and Brita Nord parred it (so 23 between the other three players apparently!). The 14th, at 228 yards was also a great challenge - I made my three on that one.

The play off for the overall title was great to watch. I will post some video footage on YouTube for anyone that is interested (rather poor quality I'm afraid - I'm no cameraman lol, but it's the whole play off, about 45 minutes and is the only footage that exists!).

[Blade Junkie]

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1350000112' post='5783143']
Geoff:

What clubs were played by Perry Somers? Original Thomas Stewart irons? Woods?
[/quote]

"Fail" from me ... I didn't actually look!

I'll try and find out ...

[Bella Woods]

Blade Junkie:

Let us know when the You Tube video is up and running - I am
looking forward to seeing it.

[majic]

If I remember Perry trying to get the OK in a Professional event to use his hickories i think most of his irons are Stewart. Woods could be anything. Tad

[hollabachgt]

[quote name='majic' timestamp='1350351669' post='5799405']
If I remember Perry trying to get the OK in a Professional event to use his hickories i think most of his irons are Stewart. Woods could be anything. Tad
[/quote]

Tad,

I Believe the event was the Australian PGA and it was a curator of an Australian golf museum who petitioned to get Somers into the event for the 100th anniversary. He was not permitted to play because the hand stamped grooves on his irons couldn't possibly be parallel and thus illegal. I also seem to remember seeing Somers playing Tom Stewarts and a Braid Mills putter.

[Bella Woods]

hollabachgt:

I think you are correct on the facts.

In my opinion - there will come a day (very soon) when the local and national
golf associations will have to deal with the "hickory golf club problem".
It has become hugely popular, and it seems to me that some of them play the
clubs as well.

Its kind of ludicrous to treat the old original clubs (or the reproductions of them)
as illegal when they were perfectly legal in their day. Nobody in their right mind
could argue a "technological advantage". Is this a rule that should only apply to high
level amateur and pro tournaments? Or everybody? Shouldn't the people that actually play
and support the game have the final say on this, as opposed to an organization that has
been empowered/supported by these very same people?

I think its a shame they would not let Perry Somers test his clubs against the others.

I wonder what the "powers that be" in the USGA think about handicap scores posted with
the old time hickory clubs. As I see it, according to the USGA rules you can only really
have one true handicap no matter what you are playing club wise.

So what do you do when you are playing "illegal clubs-read hickory clubs" and want to post
your scores for handicap purposes with the regional, state and/or national golf societies?
Or play them in golf tournaments? Are you not supposed to post all scores you play with the
assumption that you are trying to score your best and play by the rules - no matter what
clubs you are playing with?

I will be interested to see how this plays out in the near future.

Does anyone actually know what the USGA position is on this at this point?

[majic]

Bella this is why I created the SoHG (Society of Hickory Golfers Society) and with the help of my friend Frank Boumphry the handicap system provided free by the society. You cannot post a score on the USGA handicap system with a nonconforming club in play. So interestingly if they pass a rule about anchored putters and you use an anchored putter you cannot post a score for handicap on a USGA site.
I do know many players that in the past with the blessing of their Pro or Club had a hickory handicap such as Tad Hickory Moore. If the USGA knew this they would have had the person remove the "hickory" one.
I feel that the reason people don't want people like Perry to play, they could have made a local rule to allow him, is that they do not want to take the risk of him beating players with his old clubs. For various reasons people do not want to be beaten by someone playing hickories. In my younger days i experienced this many times.
thos of us involved in the game for some time feel that the SoHG is the body that best represents the interests of the hickory players. I hope people would join and support the SoHG in doing this great work. Tad Moore

[dbringans]

Tad,

I remember the kerfuffle about Perry Somers. I too thought it was due to them not wanting to be embarrassed at being beaten by a player using vintage gear.

As a matter of interest, could he have got around the grooves rule by using punch face irons?

[Bella Woods]

He definitely could have used smooth faced irons and avoided the groove problem.

His woods should have created no problems for him.

But you and Tad are right - would not have looked good beating guys with 85 year old clubs.
Mac O'Grady beat almost everyone with his classic clubs several years ago in a senior tournament.

[hollabachgt]

While my saturday group is made up of some very good players, no one is currently playing on tour. I know that when I started playing with my hickories on saturday mornings there was a lot of great interest, mainly in the notion that someone would be crazy enough to play them. Then when I started to beat some of the group members the notion turned into both astonishment as well as embarrassment. But after playing in my saturday group with hickories for a long enough period of time as well as allowing a great number of them the chance to hit the clubs they fully understand that if used correctly a shot hit by a hickory shafted club can be just as good as one hit by a modern club. But a shot hit fractionally less than perfect will be no where near as usable as one hit with a modern club. While a high caliber player may be embarrassed if they are beaten by "inferior" equipment, they would most likely realize the performance was do to the player's skill. The ruling bodies and most importantly the golf club manufacturers would be furious as it would prove to the golfing public the simple fact that after 100+ years of innovation and development, golf club performance is no where near advanced as advertised.

Golf ball development? Well that's a whole other story.

[Blade Junkie]

Here are the YouTube videos of the World Hickory Open 2012 Playoff between Rick Valentine and Perry Somers.

It's a bit raw I'm afraid, but I'll share it nonetheless ! A real shame that the camera packed up and I missed four of the last five shots (got it back for the final putt, which is the 2nd link below)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY4jzbQojH4&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1iLKfOdFi0&feature=plcp

[guisician]

Thanks for the video, Blade Junkie; what a treat to see such fine play!

[gvogel]

[quote name='hollabachgt' timestamp='1350621131' post='5815365']
While my saturday group is made up of some very good players, no one is currently playing on tour. I know that when I started playing with my hickories on saturday mornings there was a lot of great interest, mainly in the notion that someone would be crazy enough to play them. Then when I started to beat some of the group members the notion turned into both astonishment as well as embarrassment. But after playing in my saturday group with hickories for a long enough period of time as well as allowing a great number of them the chance to hit the clubs they fully understand that if used correctly a shot hit by a hickory shafted club can be just as good as one hit by a modern club. But a shot hit fractionally less than perfect will be no where near as usable as one hit with a modern club. While a high caliber player may be embarrassed if they are beaten by "inferior" equipment, they would most likely realize the performance was do to the player's skill. The ruling bodies and most importantly the golf club manufacturers would be furious as it would prove to the golfing public the simple fact that after 100+ years of innovation and development, golf club performance is no where near advanced as advertised.

Golf ball development? Well that's a whole other story.
[/quote]

[quote name='hollabachgt' timestamp='1350621131' post='5815365']
While my saturday group is made up of some very good players, no one is currently playing on tour. I know that when I started playing with my hickories on saturday mornings there was a lot of great interest, mainly in the notion that someone would be crazy enough to play them. Then when I started to beat some of the group members the notion turned into both astonishment as well as embarrassment. But after playing in my saturday group with hickories for a long enough period of time as well as allowing a great number of them the chance to hit the clubs they fully understand that if used correctly a shot hit by a hickory shafted club can be just as good as one hit by a modern club. But a shot hit fractionally less than perfect will be no where near as usable as one hit with a modern club. While a high caliber player may be embarrassed if they are beaten by "inferior" equipment, they would most likely realize the performance was do to the player's skill. The ruling bodies and most importantly the golf club manufacturers would be furious as it would prove to the golfing public the simple fact that after 100+ years of innovation and development, golf club performance is no where near advanced as advertised.

Golf ball development? Well that's a whole other story.
[/quote]

If this is Joe posting, hi, it's Greg from Buffalo.

Question: how big a difference is there in driver distance between a very well struck shot off a hickory, and one off modern titanium. And then, since slight misses off hickory drivers are punished, what might be the average difference between modern drivers and hickory, for you.

I am not the ball striker that I saw on the range in Birmingham! And, if I recall correctly, you were in winning form. So, for me, I would say that perfectly struck shots are probably 10 - 15 yards difference, since my modern driver is lighter and the shaft is 3" longer. I would say that my average drive might be 20 yards less, 235 v. 215 on average conditions.

[Bella Woods]

Geoff:

Thanks for sharing the playoff video with us. Its nice to be able to see
something like that in person even though it was 3,500 miles away.

It must have gotten dark very soon after they got done playing - the sun
was going down pretty fast - even when the playoff started.

[hollabachgt]

[quote name='gvogel' timestamp='1350661888' post='5816897']

If this is Joe posting, hi, it's Greg from Buffalo.

Question: how big a difference is there in driver distance between a very well struck shot off a hickory, and one off modern titanium. And then, since slight misses off hickory drivers are punished, what might be the average difference between modern drivers and hickory, for you.

I am not the ball striker that I saw on the range in Birmingham! And, if I recall correctly, you were in winning form. So, for me, I would say that perfectly struck shots are probably 10 - 15 yards difference, since my modern driver is lighter and the shaft is 3" longer. I would say that my average drive might be 20 yards less, 235 v. 215 on average conditions.
[/quote]

Greg,

You are most likely thinking of my father, who incidentally I got interested in hickory golf. I've found that A well struck shot with my hickory driver will travel 8-10% less than with my modern driver. In my case both are 44" and the hickory driver is 3 swing-weight points heavier, which probably leads to relative lack of distance loss. Pertaining to a miss hit, the punishment is not so much loss of distance but rather miss direction. A miss hit with a modern driver might be a 10-15 yard draw, while the same miss with a hickory driver would be closer to a 30-35 yard draw. Because distance is generate in two different manors between the two clubs I've hit some very long drive with the hickory driver that would go beyond a modern driver, but this was due to extended roll compared to a modern driver.

I believe a big aspect of hickory distance is also in your choice of golf ball. I play the Bridgestone B330 RXS with both modern and hickory clubs, so any difference would be equipment based. While my father plays with the Pro V for modern play and the Bridgestone for hickory play, he feels that the Bridgestone is a generally shorter ball between the two so his distance gap may be closer to 10-12%.

Interestingly, I've found little to no distance difference when dealing with irons and play them much of the same. The greatest difficulty is generating spin while trying to hit less than a full shot. For instance at French Lick this year I changed my approach to playing the 4th hole. Last year my play was either an Approach Cleek or 3/4 Mashie-Iron that both days landed towards the front of the green and ran all the way to the back. The ball never generated enough back spin and due to the elevation change landed at a much shallower angle than desired. for both rounds this year I played a very hard hit Mashie in an attempt to bring the ball down from a much greater altitude and stop nearer to the middle of the green. Both days my ball came to rest in its own pitch mark on the green.

[gvogel]

[quote name='hollabachgt' timestamp='1350684122' post='5818563']
[quote name='gvogel' timestamp='1350661888' post='5816897']
If this is Joe posting, hi, it's Greg from Buffalo.

Question: how big a difference is there in driver distance between a very well struck shot off a hickory, and one off modern titanium. And then, since slight misses off hickory drivers are punished, what might be the average difference between modern drivers and hickory, for you.

I am not the ball striker that I saw on the range in Birmingham! And, if I recall correctly, you were in winning form. So, for me, I would say that perfectly struck shots are probably 10 - 15 yards difference, since my modern driver is lighter and the shaft is 3" longer. I would say that my average drive might be 20 yards less, 235 v. 215 on average conditions.
[/quote]

Greg,

You are most likely thinking of my father, who incidentally I got interested in hickory golf. I've found that A well struck shot with my hickory driver will travel 8-10% less than with my modern driver. In my case both are 44" and the hickory driver is 3 swing-weight points heavier, which probably leads to relative lack of distance loss. Pertaining to a miss hit, the punishment is not so much loss of distance but rather miss direction. A miss hit with a modern driver might be a 10-15 yard draw, while the same miss with a hickory driver would be closer to a 30-35 yard draw. Because distance is generate in two different manors between the two clubs I've hit some very long drive with the hickory driver that would go beyond a modern driver, but this was due to extended roll compared to a modern driver.

I believe a big aspect of hickory distance is also in your choice of golf ball. I play the Bridgestone B330 RXS with both modern and hickory clubs, so any difference would be equipment based. While my father plays with the Pro V for modern play and the Bridgestone for hickory play, he feels that the Bridgestone is a generally shorter ball between the two so his distance gap may be closer to 10-12%.

Interestingly, I've found little to no distance difference when dealing with irons and play them much of the same. The greatest difficulty is generating spin while trying to hit less than a full shot. For instance at French Lick this year I changed my approach to playing the 4th hole. Last year my play was either an Approach Cleek or 3/4 Mashie-Iron that both days landed towards the front of the green and ran all the way to the back. The ball never generated enough back spin and due to the elevation change landed at a much shallower angle than desired. for both rounds this year I played a very hard hit Mashie in an attempt to bring the ball down from a much greater altitude and stop nearer to the middle of the green. Both days my ball came to rest in its own pitch mark on the green.
[/quote]

If this is Ben, hi I'm Greg from Buffalo who watched you smash drives last year at Pinehurst and gave you a Tad Moore driver to hit.

8% might be about right for distance disadvantage off the tee. Today I played 18 and hit both my Titleist 910 D2 and my Tad Moore 12* Pell Mell. i would say that when I hit both really well (my 910 has a Motore F1 55R shaft tipped 1/2"), I was 20 yards longer with the modern over the hickory. However, we had a lot of rain last night, and the course is playing very soft and mud is collecting on the ball.

I can hit my hickory a lot farther when the ground is firm. My hickory trajectory is much lower; in very soft conditions, my modern driver was 20 yards longer on comparable well-struck shots.

I may be playing my hickories much longer into the winter here; but I think that I am going to pull a "Keith Cleveland" and play a modern driver off the tee, so that I can hit a variety of clubs for second shots, instead of hitting my spoon all day long. In the summer, when it is warm and the conditions are firm, I can hit my hickory driver at my course (5700 yards) and hit all the clubs in my bag (spoon, Victor 3-iron, 4-iron, 5-iron, 7-iron, 8-iron) in a round of golf - which I think is really enjoyable.

[Bella Woods]

Hey gvogel;

Its funny how having to hit a 2, 3 or 4 iron (or more) into a green for your second
on a Par 4 is not a part of the game anymore. It wasn't that long ago was it - early 1990s?

[gvogel]

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1350692834' post='5819119']
Hey gvogel;

Its funny how having to hit a 2, 3 or 4 iron (or more) into a green for your second
on a Par 4 is not a part of the game anymore. It wasn't that long ago was it - early 1990s?
[/quote]

I'm a bit 'distance challenged' so, on a 6400 yard course, I will hit 5-wood and 3-hybrid second shots on occasion with my modern set, unless the course is very firm. But, that is one of the charms of playing hickory from an appropriate distance for me. I grew up having to hit 4-wood and 5-wood on the longest par 4's. On a 5600 - 5800 yard course, I get to hit all the clubs in my bag - and I can walk the course easily and finish in under four hours.

By the way, really catching one with a hickory driver is much more satisfying than creaming one with a modern club.

[majic]

Great video Geoff. Some familiar faces and course. I think my friend Lionel had another excellent event and I hope it attracts more players from the USA as well as Scotland, UK and all of Europe.
Ben, Bella and Greg I have found over many years that the driver is the area of the greatest loss in distance. Shaft weight is a big factor as most driver shafts weigh around 185 to 200 grams. i think most people also play a 43 inch driver which was a very common length during the "persimmon" era. Ball selection is very important and i think it is a topic that draws a lot of attention/discussion at events. I agree if the course is firm there is less lost yardage when its soft you get the least. Mid Pines tends to give us an opportunity to hit a lot of shots and yardages. I am anxious to play it again his year. It requires you to think before you hit a shot. Wonderful course. Tad

[stixman]

My favourite club for getting high stopping mashie (or more) length shots is the low profile, bottom weighted Tom Stewart jigger. At Brookline in 1913, Francis Ouimet played a number of such shots when Vardon and Ray used the mashie. This, I hasten to add, is not disclosed in 'The Greatest Game'.

I have just returned from vacation in Portugal and was away when the Perry Somers hickory option at the Australian Open thread was discussed. I saw Perry at the English Hickory Championship at Rye earlier this month. I understood that while he wanted to take part in the Australian it was his sense of history that induced him to play with the sticks rather than an ambition to win it using them. The Aussie PGA made the mistake of referring the legality of the sticks to the R&A when they should have made an arbitrary decision to have him play in a separate category outside the usual rules. Once asked formally, there was little the R&A could do other than supply the party line response. Could be,of course, that the sponsors of golf equipment on the Tour didn't see it as in their interests to show someone having a gas with gear other than their own and this could have been an 'under the counter' agenda.

Moving right along, I am going to Machrihanish Dunes this week to talk to the owners at their invitation to develop to talk about running a Hickory Event there next Spring.
Anybody up for it, fly to Glasgow and then take an internal flight down to the tip of the Kintyre peninsula, what do you think? Machrihanish itself is next door, an d Dunaverty and Carradale are just down the road. The Machrie on Islay is a boat trip away. I love the area and it offers a feast of traditional links based hickory golf. Accomodation either in the lodges or the Uggadale hotel.

[Blade Junkie]

Perry has come up trumps with his Hickory WITB:

In his own words ...

[i]Here is the description of my hickory set, For some it will be surprising how few " famous " clubs I have. I have selected them on feel alone and if the club feels good to me and I can control the flight and distance to satisfaction, then it's in the bag, regardless who made it or what is stamped on it.[/i]

[i]Driver: J.H.Taylor " CYNOSURE ". Length 43" Swing weight C4.[/i]

[i]Baffy: No markings at all! Length 40.25" Swing weight C3.[/i]

[i]Cleek: Tom Stewart ( Jack White Sunningdale) 39.5" C2.[/i]

[i]2 Iron: George Nicoll ( Duncan McCulloch Royal Troon) 38.5" B6.[/i]

[i]Mid Iron, Mashie, Mashie Niblick: all three are from a very large sports store in Glasgow in the early 1900's "Lumleys Ltd." No manufacturer markings otherwise to be seen.[/i]

[i]Mid Iron: 38" D2. Mashie 37" D6. Mashie Niblick #1: 36" D8.[/i]

[i]I carry two Mashie Niblicks the Lumleys club has slightly more loft and a little bounce and is fine out of the Bunkers. The other is a touch ( or should that be a Tad? ) stronger and works beautifully from the 100 yard range. By the way that was the club I hit into he first hole for my second shot each time in the play off.[/i]

[i]Mashie Niblick #2: Jack Innes Prestwick 36" C3[/i]

[i]Putter: "The BOGEE " model. Medium Lie. 33.9" 8oz. 12 dps.[/i]


Good stuff !

[Bella Woods]

Very interesting - thanks for the info Blade Junkie.

What surprises me is the light swingweights in the longer
clubs and the mashie niblick #2. Those would be tough to
hit for me, especially a C-4 driver.
He must be a "smooth swinger"

[stixman]

I have only recently got a swing weight balance (A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!) and the first thing I did was to put my hickories on it. Won't record the results but the first thing I did was to get out the lead and start balancing them out. I await warmer weather for the consequences.
My thought is that Perry must have been tempted to go that route but resisted. Shows a lot of conviction in his sense of touch, his swing talent and his appreciation of the art of golf (as opposed to the science which is the overwhelming preoccupation of most of today's golfers).

[majic]

I think that Perry is like many people he probably got started playing hickory and picked up a few clubs and went by feel. We know he is a Pro and teaches and probably does hit quite a few practice balls with his hickories. I do not know but some Pro's use hickories in their teaching. I find from experience people can play hickories from C5 up without a lot of trouble because of the overall club weight. Iron shafts are from 170 to 185 grams. Tad

[Blade Junkie]

For those interested, Perry has a Facebook page called "Hickory Golf Passion" with a few video clips and photos, including a news item from the Channel Ten network in Australia re: his attempt to play the Australian PGA with the hickories (8th March 2012 on his timeline)

[Bella Woods]

Blade Junkie:

Thanks for the info - I really enjoyed browsing the page - lots of great videos/pictures/info.

[Aussie_steeler]

Played my 4th ever round in competition today with a set of hickories. I bogeyed the last two holes to shoot even par. I cant tell you how much I owe this to Tad Moore. Two weeks ago I got a driver, spoon and dominie sander from him. These clubs are absolutely beautiful and a pleasure to play with. Thank you Tad for the quality of your workmanship and I can honestly say that I am hooked to this new way of golfing. I will endeavour to post a photo of my set in the next couple of days. I have shot many sub par rounds in my 30 years of golfing but today was one of the most enjoyable rounds I have ever played