Right forearm perpendicularity in transition

[SwingNV]

This might get wordy, but I'll throw it out there and hopefully spark some discussion.

 

 

Thru experimentation, I have found only 2 ways to get the Hogan right elbow look in transition, where the right forearm remains (or even gets more) perpendicular to the ground.

 

1) I can do it by anchoring the right elbow to the right hip during takeaway while twirling the club open with my hands.

 

2) I can do it by working the elbows together the entire swing motion.

 

Doing it the 1st way, my swing has no "pop". Like there isn't any dynamic energy. Doing it the 2nd way creates a lot of clubhead speed for me.

 

IMO, version #2 is how Hogan achieved the right forearm perpendicularity thru transition. I will provide what I consider to be evidence:

 

a) Hogan spoke and wrote about the importance of keeping the elbows as close together as possible, with the elbows pointing at the hips and the pits at the sky. People often argue that Hogan didn't do this, which I think only proves the point that it's important to do this dynamically. He didn't start out with the elbows very close together because the dynamics of a powerful swing are achieved by the PROCESS of getting the elbows close together, not their positioning.

 

b) Hogan's waggle. Watching DTL, you can see how he is setting up his lat muscles to get the elbows to work together during the swing. The clubhead elevates before he waggles back, then it descends down and to the inside of the ball with the toe of the club on the front edge of the ball. The clubhead then "shovels" out to get the sweetspot to the ball.

 

c) Hogan's takeaway. Watching a front view, you can see Hogan slightly straighten his arms just before takeaway. This to me is the arms straightening via the lats pressuring down. This movement really connects the arms to the core, which explains why Hogan stated that it would take a tremendous amount of force to pull his arms away from his body.

 

I used the term "shovel" earlier for a reason. This is the sensation to me. Imagine you are holding a shovel instead of a golf club. The point of the shovel is already stuck in the ground. Now try shoveling the dirt out without any type of backwards motion. The only way you can do it is by utilizing the lats. Setting up with the elbows really close together and arms on top of your chest diminishes the energy you can create with your lats. IMO, this is why Hogan's arms appear to be more at his sides and his hands closer to his pelvis. A position to really power the shovel with the lats.

 

So basically I continue with the pressured shovel the entire swing. This keeps the elbows wanting to work closer together even if they don't get all the way there. This intent stabalizes the scapula which syncs up the arms to the chest so you will have minimal arm- runoff.

 

This shoveling intent also helps create your biggest "lassoing" radius. Basically if you held out the club in front of you perpendicular to the ground with your elbows chicken winging away from you, you can only lasso the club in a small circle. Now slowly start working your elbows closer together while you keep lassoing, and you will see that ROM of your wrists greatly increases which in affect increases the clubheads lassoing radius.

 

I remember Eightiron posting that Hogan said you can remove the bicep from the swing. This sensation would definitely fall in-line with that thinking. You also have to have a lateral element to get the right elbow working like that in transition. I think I remember 8i saying that Hogan told that to Clampett. Definitely agree with that too.

 

Alright that's all I got, Happy New Year Hogan fans!

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1325277149' post='4006363']
This might get wordy, but I'll throw it out there and hopefully spark some discussion.


Thru experimentation, I have found only 2 ways to get the Hogan right elbow look in transition, where the right forearm remains (or even gets more) perpendicular to the ground.

1) I can do it by anchoring the right elbow to the right hip during takeaway while twirling the club open with my hands.

2) I can do it by working the elbows together the entire swing motion.

Doing it the 1st way, my swing has no "pop". Like there isn't any dynamic energy. Doing it the 2nd way creates a lot of clubhead speed for me.

IMO, version #2 is how Hogan achieved the right forearm perpendicularity thru transition. I will provide what I consider to be evidence:

a) Hogan spoke and wrote about the importance of keeping the elbows as close together as possible, with the elbows pointing at the hips and the pits at the sky. People often argue that Hogan didn't do this, which I think only proves the point that it's important to do this dynamically. He didn't start out with the elbows very close together because the dynamics of a powerful swing are achieved by the PROCESS of getting the elbows close together, not their positioning.

b) Hogan's waggle. Watching DTL, you can see how he is setting up his lat muscles to get the elbows to work together during the swing. The clubhead elevates before he waggles back, then it descends down and to the inside of the ball with the toe of the club on the front edge of the ball. The clubhead then "shovels" out to get the sweetspot to the ball.

c) Hogan's takeaway. Watching a front view, you can see Hogan slightly straighten his arms just before takeaway. This to me is the arms straightening via the lats pressuring down. This movement really connects the arms to the core, which explains why Hogan stated that it would take a tremendous amount of force to pull his arms away from his body.

I used the term "shovel" earlier for a reason. This is the sensation to me. Imagine you are holding a shovel instead of a golf club. The point of the shovel is already stuck in the ground. Now try shoveling the dirt out without any type of backwards motion. The only way you can do it is by utilizing the lats. Setting up with the elbows really close together and arms on top of your chest diminishes the energy you can create with your lats. IMO, this is why Hogan's arms appear to be more at his sides and his hands closer to his pelvis. A position to really power the shovel with the lats.

So basically I continue with the pressured shovel the entire swing. This keeps the elbows wanting to work closer together even if they don't get all the way there. This intent stabalizes the scapula which syncs up the arms to the chest so you will have minimal arm- runoff.

This shoveling intent also helps create your biggest "lassoing" radius. Basically if you held out the club in front of you perpendicular to the ground with your elbows chicken winging away from you, you can only lasso the club in a small circle. Now slowly start working your elbows closer together while you keep lassoing, and you will see that ROM of your wrists greatly increases which in affect increases the clubheads lassoing radius.

I remember Eightiron posting that Hogan said you can remove the bicep from the swing. This sensation would definitely fall in-line with that thinking. You also have to have a lateral element to get the right elbow working like that in transition. I think I remember 8i saying that Hogan told that to Clampett. Definitely agree with that too.

Alright that's all I got, Happy New Year Hogan fans!
[/quote]

I agree with #2...but what do you mean by perpendicularity?

[SwingNV]

Right forearm perpendicular to the ground during transition. Most players right elbow moves more away from perpendicular (bat elbow) whereas Hogan's works more towards it (pitch elbow).

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1325278239' post='4006433']
Right forearm perpendicular to the ground during transition. Most players right elbow moves more away from perpendicular (bat elbow) whereas Hogan's works more towards it (pitch elbow).
[/quote]

Got you...I see the elbow and forearm as along for the ride and unchanged. It just looks funny because of the rotation/lateral moves.

The pre-takeaway arm move is extremely noticeable to me. You're the first person Ive seen mention it as a few have called it a "forward press". I always thought he was pressing his elbows together but I think you got it right with the lats...

[PingG10guy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk


Nevermind...if he is pressing lats down the the shoulder sockets would move with them. back to the drawing board lol

[SwingNV]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1325281781' post='4006663']
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk[/url]


Nevermind...if he is pressing lats down the the shoulder sockets would move with them. back to the drawing board lol
[/quote]



Only if you are completely relaxed and then push down with the lats would you notice the shoulder joints moving down. If I walk into the ball with my lats already somewhat engaged, my shoulder joints don't move when I shovel. My arms just straighten slightly as my hands move a bit towards the ball.

[chrisgilly09]

Not saying I disagree with you, but I can't quite feel myself what 'pressing the lats down' means. A description would be VERY appreciated .

 

To me he looks to have his shoulders rounding off as much as possible, which would make his arms straighten a bit (definitely in agreement with your lasso experiment). Being as internally rotated as possible with the shoulders at address, especially the right one, he can focus on externally rotating the shoulder to its max while at the same time loading his left wrist in the BS.

 

As we all know, grip is important, etc., yada 3x, Happy New Years lads

[HoganAfficianado]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1325277149' post='4006363']
This might get wordy, but I'll throw it out there and hopefully spark some discussion.


Thru experimentation, I have found only 2 ways to get the Hogan right elbow look in transition, where the right forearm remains (or even gets more) perpendicular to the ground.

1) I can do it by anchoring the right elbow to the right hip during takeaway while twirling the club open with my hands.

2) [b]I can do it by working the elbows together the entire swing motion.
[/b]
Doing it the 1st way, my swing has no "pop". Like there isn't any dynamic energy. Doing it the 2nd way creates a lot of clubhead speed for me.

IMO, version #2 is how Hogan achieved the right forearm perpendicularity thru transition. I will provide what I consider to be evidence:

a) Hogan spoke and wrote about the importance of keeping the elbows as close together as possible, with the elbows pointing at the hips and the pits at the sky. People often argue that Hogan didn't do this, which I think only proves the point that it's important to do this dynamically. He didn't start out with the elbows very close together because the dynamics of a powerful swing are achieved by the PROCESS of getting the elbows close together, not their positioning.

b) Hogan's waggle. Watching DTL, you can see how he is setting up his lat muscles to get the elbows to work together during the swing. The clubhead elevates before he waggles back, then it descends down and to the inside of the ball with the toe of the club on the front edge of the ball. The clubhead then "shovels" out to get the sweetspot to the ball.

c) Hogan's takeaway. Watching a front view, you can see Hogan slightly straighten his arms just before takeaway. This to me is the arms straightening via the lats pressuring down. This movement really connects the arms to the core, which explains why Hogan stated that it would take a tremendous amount of force to pull his arms away from his body.

I used the term "shovel" earlier for a reason. This is the sensation to me. Imagine you are holding a shovel instead of a golf club. The point of the shovel is already stuck in the ground. Now try shoveling the dirt out without any type of backwards motion. The only way you can do it is by utilizing the lats. Setting up with the elbows really close together and arms on top of your chest diminishes the energy you can create with your lats. IMO, this is why Hogan's arms appear to be more at his sides and his hands closer to his pelvis. A position to really power the shovel with the lats.

So basically I continue with the pressured shovel the entire swing. This keeps the elbows wanting to work closer together even if they don't get all the way there. This intent stabalizes the scapula which syncs up the arms to the chest so you will have minimal arm- runoff.

This shoveling intent also helps create your biggest "lassoing" radius. Basically if you held out the club in front of you perpendicular to the ground with your elbows chicken winging away from you, you can only lasso the club in a small circle. Now slowly start working your elbows closer together while you keep lassoing, and you will see that ROM of your wrists greatly increases which in affect increases the clubheads lassoing radius.

I remember Eightiron posting that Hogan said you can remove the bicep from the swing. This sensation would definitely fall in-line with that thinking. You also have to have a lateral element to get the right elbow working like that in transition. I think I remember 8i saying that Hogan told that to Clampett. Definitely agree with that too.

Alright that's all I got, Happy New Year Hogan fans!
[/quote]

In the second experiment, I think what you are feeling is the arms working in unison with the body all the while staying in front of the turning torso. Do you feel more stretch when you keep the elbows more closely together?

[SwingNV]

[quote name='HoganAfficianado' timestamp='1325312653' post='4008661']

In the second experiment, I think what you are feeling is the arms working in unison with the body all the while staying in front of the turning torso. Do you feel more stretch when you keep the elbows more closely together?
[/quote]




Yes 100% agree with that feeling. I definitely feel more stretch too. Also, because I'm thin-chested my arms have a tendency to runoff and get caught behind my body. This lat pressure keeps my arms in front of me for sure so that arms are synced up with the core. Using the lats this way has a centering effect- like a gymnast on the hand rings holding himself up with his arms full extended down. Major lat sstrength required to do that.