Squish n turn

[JPGolf FL]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jr1Tmtmgtc[/media]

Flopper, I think I have found our disconnect. Your video that explains a lot. When you explain the difference in the right hip between your method, and what you call a traditional method, something jumped out of me. as I said before, I don't think your method is wrong. The issue is that you don't understand the traditional swing. You say that in a traditional down swing the right hip swings around towards the ball. This is incorrect. It is a very common misconception, and it's why you see a lot of golfers with early extension and loss of spine angle. The right hip should stay in place and force the left hip to turn and open. This maintains spine angle and allows plenty of room for the arms to swing through. this video explains it very well.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggLTM9bfD54"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggLTM9bfD54[/url]

Now you have not posted down the line view of Hans using your method, but I suspect we will see a bit of an upright position in the downswing and a tush line that moves towards the ball. Your method requires a bit of leaning back to create the spine angle. A traditional swing maintains the tush line and allows the arms to hang and swing freely. As I said, I'm not saying your method is wrong. Only suggesting that you should be sure you understand a method before you say that it's completely wrong. forgive me If I do not have your understanding of a traditional swing correct. I am simply going off of what you explained in your video.

[RBImGuy]

 

Flopper, I think I have found our disconnect. Your video that explains a lot. When you explain the difference in the right hip between your method, and what you call a traditional method, something jumped out of me. as I said before, I don't think your method is wrong. The issue is that you don't understand the traditional swing. You say that in a traditional down swing the right hip swings around towards the ball. This is incorrect. It is a very common misconception, and it's why you see a lot of golfers with early extension and loss of spine angle. The right hip should stay in place and force the left hip to turn and open. This maintains spine angle and allows plenty of room for the arms to swing through. this video explains it very well.

 

 

 

Now you have not posted down the line view of Hans using your method, but I suspect we will see a bit of an upright position in the downswing and a tush line that moves towards the ball.

 

Your correct that people missunderstand the modern/classic swing motion.

Even Ben Hogan didnt understand his own swing.

All golf swings is the same to a point called the half-turn or the Sam Snead move.

Once there, a modern or classic swinger will swing their pelvis differently vs a Austin/squish as I posted previously images between Mike Austin and Ben Hogan there is evident that they have a different motion going into impact, one of those actions will support a 155mph swing the other hit it short.

Older classical swingers allows a much better action also posted in the Bradley youtube clip that is why you see them move the right heel back to the left heel due to the pelvis movement makes that happen which if you dont do one as modern swing does it aka stack and tilt, Foley, haney, leadbetter etc...you will struggle with the golf game.

 

You will actually see Hans later when he increase the tilt action of the spine into his downswing especially with the driver and his pelvis will move much differently due to the body naturally support that action. He isnt where he should be yet but are working on it. He is traumatized by his older swing guru teachers. ;)

 

I talk to golf Pro´s who offers the same ideas and perceptions similiar to what you do here, and I prove them mistaken every time.

Naturally they run to their favourite golf guru/forum expert and get comforted due to if anyone is saying Hogan didnt understand his own swing is a noob/clueless/take yourpick opinion.

I watch Hogan explain and then do a swing and it dont match. Kinda makes me wondering how the golf field works.

I see monte scheinblum a really long hitter that was world champion in long driving and a nationwide player level went the modern swing route and ruined his swing, game and mental health along the way ;)

 

Anyhow, the major difference between a modern/classic swinger vs an Austin based will be when you rotate the pelvis and it happens before impact in classic/modern swings and after in an Austin swing. Its due to Austin is supported by the natural motion the joints do and its hard to spot due to how people believe what a golf swing theory swing should look like. The force applied dont have two forces going on at the same time as a modern/classic swing has due to the roatation has to happen before impact and if so the dispersion factor will be bigger in a modern/classic than Austin had.

I watch the physics force and its simply put your body wont be able to handle the force without risking injury that is why you see modern tourplayers, best of the best, most fit of the best still crash their backs due to a timing balancing act of rotating before impact due to needed to handle two forces at the same time.

 

Now you posted a video about Shawn Clement about Hogan Power move and it explains it well?

He lacks Hogans power, no action of the right heel into impact indicating a inproper pelvis movement and I like Shawn but its obvious he aint able to replicate the Hogan power move.

My view or opinion might not count for being an expert on the modern nor classic swing at the golfwrx forum but Hogan showed first.

Right heel has moved back and down.

 

No such heel move in Shawns move.

 

 

vs the Hogan/Austin one:

 

Once Hogans body couldnt handle the swing motion he had to make adaptions, once was his accident, he won more than 10 times twice on the tour the same year before the accident and had IMO a better swing then. His body gave up and his swing had to follow suit as he aged and the body simply couldnt cope with it.

 

For me in the above images its evidence how the squish compression happens in Mike Austin at age 77 or so.

Nor shawn, nor Hogan is doing it.

One of those support 155mph swing, and the other two dosnt.

I wont post how to do the proper pelvis movement, in any way or form either here or on my website, as its a tradesecret.

My audience is a professional golfer first and foremost, not amateurs. so to have a edge counts kinda high in their field.

[JPGolf FL]

I think you missed the point of me posting that video. It was simply a response to your video where you said in a traditional golf swing the right hip swings around towards the ball. The video was shows the correct way the right hip should move, or not move, in the downswing. In your video you said my swing looks like this, and a traditional swing looks like this. The way you showed a traditional swing was incorrect.

Me posting the video had nothing to do with the right heel or whether or not Hogan understood his swing. And FYI there are plenty of photos of Hogan at impact with his heel still on the ground.

Your side-by-side photo of Hogan and Austin illustrate exactly what I was saying. In a traditional swing there is much more bend at the hips and the rear end acts as a counterweight to the club head. It seems that in the Austin method the body stays more upright and the hips must tilt and lean the body back to create spine tilt. You can really see this in the video of your swing. At the top of the backswing you must lean back quickly to create till and swing through. Not that this is wrong, it is just definitely not the only way to correctly swing a club.

And I definitely did not "run to my favorite teacher" for validation by posting a video of Shawn. I agree with a lot of what he teaches, but not everything. I simply used his video to illustrate a point. And I hate that the explanation of the pelvis movement is a trade secret. I guess us mortals are not worthy to hear about it.

I think that good assessment would be that the Austin method is more of a hit and the Clement/traditional method would be more of a swing. And by traditional I don't mean modern.

[RBImGuy]

I think you missed the point of me posting that video. It was simply a response to your video where you said in a traditional golf swing the right hip swings around towards the ball. Not that this is wrong, it is just definitely not the only way to correctly swing a club.

 

And I definitely did not "run to my favorite teacher" for validation by posting a video of Shawn. I agree with a lot of what he teaches, but not everything. I simply used his video to illustrate a point. And I hate that the explanation of the pelvis movement is a trade secret. I guess us mortals are not worthy to hear about it. ;)

 

I think that good assessment would be that the Austin method is more of a hit and the Clement/traditional method would be more of a swing. And by traditional I don't mean modern.

 

Never amaze me when people let perception cloud judgement.

Below Hogan vs austin. One has swung thier pelvis and hips to timing their impact.

So cant say I dont understand the modern nor the classic golf swings as its evidently are difference timing their impact vs an Austin swing.(Austin actually swings it Hogan isnt) ;)

So what I stated still stands true. You havent shown any evidence you understand the Austin swing, and I shown plenty that I do understand the modern and classic.

Never said you cant play great golf with any swing as you can, the PGA tour are filled with great players of all kinds with different mechanics. the swing dont make the player great.

I see the culprit of young kids that has surgery at below 30 due to modern swing ideals aka stack and tilt, Leadbetter, haney, Foley.

The pro golfer wants to be better but they lack a severe understanding about their own mechanics and they assume the swing guru knows, they dont.

Once they get stuck there in the swing perfect stuff they tend to loose feel and struggle even more and often then moves away from the game.

I assume when I would work with a golfer they are able to do things but rarely if ever understand what is going on. I also assume they want to get better and I can do that with their existing mechanics adding 50 yards to driver and 30 yards with irons, same swing took me 5 minutes. No swing change only make sure no antagonists slows it down.

The same player hit it longer now, more accurate and has lessen the body stress by a lot. I also can show how his old timing works with feel and evidence and why he should do this instead.

Took him 4 hours to basically do what people call impossible unless you spend 2 years practicing. Its simply is a more natural way the body is made to move and then there is no need to change the swing as you build a new one. It took me 4 years to get his silly head accepting to change to this swing system and he is suprised how much easier it is now to play the golf he wants. and that he dont need to get worse to get better which been the case with his other so called PGA trainers.

I dont care much about swing technique, as I want the player able to play the game injury free, hit it long and accuratly and be deadly consistent and none of those criteria are answered in the golf field. None are consistent they all have a day or two when things clicks and for me that is unacceptable as I find golf as a sport easier than tennis.

 

Anyhow Hogan and Austin. :)

Hogan at impact turned pelvis, Austin after and darn it hasnt happen yet, please explain that.

 

 

Hogan never had a secret.

People made that up due to not being able to copy his level of the game.

[JPGolf FL]

Those photos further proove my point. Hogans back is dead straight, Austin's is leaning way back laterally. [b]Look at the bend in his back[/b]. [b]Hogans tilt is set at the hip joints, Austin's is created by bending the spine laterally. [/b]The photos are clear as day. Austin is much more upright as well. I think maybe your perception comment is a bit of projection. I have never contested that Austin's pelvis turned early. I contested how you explained the pelvis movement of a traditional swing in your video, which is in fact incorrect. I have never claimed to be an expert on the Austin swing. I have stated many times that I'm not saying you are wrong about the Austin swing. You are wrong about the traditional swing. You may think you really understand it, but your video makes it obvious that you dont. Did you not in your video classify the traditional swing as having the right hip rotating towards the ball? You also stated that the lower body needs to move forward in the down swing. Incorrect again. It seems that you have some very common misconceptions about this type of swing. Now you can say that I just dont know what I am talking about again but your video is very hard evidence to ignore.

Just to be clear, no hard feelings here, just a discussion.

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1331822602' post='4512861']


[size=3]Once one understands the 7th cervical as the swing center, it proves that golf is not a left or right sided game. [/size]

[size=3]One must visualize the spine as a pendulum, with the fixed point in space being 7C. The sacrum or tailbone swings only a distance of 12 inches from the top of the swing, within the boundaries of the knees. [/size]

[size=3]The sacrum swings six inches from address to the top, and twelve inches to the finish. That's not much movement. The sacrum must be allowed to swing, aided via gravity. It is not a bump, slide, push or pull, but a swing of the sacrum and hip. From the top of the swing, the first move must however be a turn. So it is a compound action, a compression of the side coupled with a turn, therefore a swing and turn, not a swing then turn. The free turn of the shoulder girdle around C7, coupled with a proper release, is the key to distance, power and accuracy. The rebound of on plane shoulder muscles supply the oomph. The release or snap of the club head by swinging out, supplies the speed. [/size]

[size=3]The turn of the hip does not produce power, the hip turn provides position. It is commonly mistakenly referred to as a clearing of the hip. There must be resistance to this return back to the ball, just as there should be resistance taking it to the top, to keep 7C stable or centered. This "resistance" is achieved via a torquing of the left tibia and fibula in the back swing and a Torquing of the right tibia and fibula in the return swing through impact. This torquing, from the knee down can clearly be seen in all elite swings. The eversion (coming out) of the heels, limits the hip turn in either direction. [/size]

[size=3]What allows the hips to swing is a detachment of the heel of the opposing side. How the heel detaches is paramount to a sound swing. The respective side compresses with the contraction of the quadratus lumborum a sheet like muscle that attaches the twelfth rib to the crest of the hip. This muscle, because of it center location, equally drops the shoulder as it raises the heel. Raising the heel or dropping the shoulder independently will cause a train wreck. [/size]

[size=3]If one can visualize the rotation of the shoulder girdle around C7 and the spine and sacrum swinging under C7, one can see how important it is to keep it centered on an X, Y, and Z axis. Any lateral moment in the downswing, of the top of the spine target ward, will cause one to decelerate the club head. One is trying to generate centrifugal force, via a minimal, centered, centripetal burst, by letting it go throwing the club out. The grip must be correct, the pressure must be maintained at the pinky of the left hand and most important the base of the right index finger against the handle. [/size]

[size=3]Hitting up on the ball supplies compression. Because the spine swings up on the left side, the right side rotating shoulder girdle is coming down hard. So the faster one hits up, the faster the right comes down. This is not a rocking of the shoulders; it is a free turn of the shoulders coupled with an upward swing of the spine as the ball is struck. [/size]

[size=3]The release is an action of the left humerus. It must be done with the left arm. From the top, coming into impact, the back of the left hand and the left elbow must be pointing target ward. [/size]

[size=3]At the moment of impact, the left elbow should snap, now pointing down, as the back of the left hand continues on its path of the free rotating shoulder girdle. This action of the left humerus is done from the left rotor cuff. The humerus was rotate away and loaded from take away. [/size]

[size=3]What I feel at the top is that I want to hit the ball as the weight transference occurs. [/size]

[size=3]No thought to transferring the weight just turn[/size] from the top. and[size=3] hit the ball.
The "hitting up" is a given as an effect of the swing of the spine.[/size]

[size=3]If I get to the left side before the strike, all power is lost. [/size]

[size=3]I want my weight behind the ball through impact. I finish left by standing up. [/size]

[size=3]That allowed me to release.[/size]




[/quote]
[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1334926616' post='4757216']
Squish is a compression of the right side between the hip and rib. It will equally drop the rear shoulder and raise the right heel.
With the closed heel stance at the top it sets one an inside out approach.
The smoother I do it the farther it goes. If you torque the rear tibia and fibula spikes against the turf you can't do it quick.
This torque of the foot is positioning/ turning the entire mass of the body.
It's like closing a door applying finger pressure close to the hinges vs. the knob.
So it is smooth but accelerates gradually to a slam.

From the top of the transition, torque the rear foot clockwise and keep the weight back as you draw the front kneecap back.
This will clear the front hip and automatically drop the upper inside. Keep the right hip high, as you turn, while keeping
the head over that rear foot till you strike the ball, turning it over through impact from the right rotor cuff.
If the swing of the COG gets to the left foot too soon, all power is lost.
You should feel the COG hop onto the left post / leg After the ball is struck.
If you do it correctly the rear foot will toe drag as you get to a high finish.
[/quote]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1335449623' post='4793376']


Hopefully you will discover that distance, accuracy and control, comes from the rotation of the shoulders,
coupled with a free release, throwing the clubhead through the ball.
Not hip rotation, the lower body positions, supports and directs this throwing action through dynamic balance.
[/quote]

Since its a thread about squish I re-posted some things he wrote earlier.

Even though the language he use is kinesiology which frankly I dont understand much about still it matches what I presented.
The ribcage support the action in my words which can be translated to kinesiology if one want but presenting it visually makes a difference.
[url="http://youtu.be/4Jr1Tmtmgtc"]http://youtu.be/4Jr1Tmtmgtc[/url]

Riding the angle is how the upperbody support when proper angled the downward action.
Its shown visually there. That the force one applies must have a counteraction due to physics and how the body naturally move is also relatively to the task one perform, more force and then more counteraction needs to be applied. If a modern/classical swinger dont understand that the swing they use needs to counteract two forces in their downswing going opposite directions as one to an Austin powered mechanics I am then at loss for words due to then the player dont understand their own motion nor action. If they then dont understand their own forces in the swing, how can they then improve or assume people dont understand the modern/classical swing if they themselves dont understand their own structure and organization?

the sponge wrote "Hogans back is dead straight"
No it isnt. It has rotated as the two forces to balance in the downswing so he can be timing it right that is why he ends up there and hit it short.
You dont understand your own mechanics or swing and your misinformed how it works.
So trying to tell me I dont understand it while its clear you even dont understand your own mechanics is not suprising due to even Tiger Woods is doing the same thing, same as Rory Mcilroy.
The modern/classical swing motion is not a natural action the body performs in their joints (kineisology) and have built in compensations in the downswing balancing two forces when its needed to only balance one, and if the player dont understand that then its evident they dont get their own swing mechanics.

You might not like that answer still it dont make it less true.
I meet the same attitude by misinformed golfers a lot. This forum btw are filled with such.
What squish explains using kinesiology might not be easy to understand nor to translate into a action one can perform (Behavioural motion).
I teach and do modeling which means what I present as a model wont match current pre-conceptions about the swing mechanics either in the modern/classical camp and it wont match what people assume exactly about the Austin mechanics either.

Squish to the extent explains this from his own journey to grasp the action he once was able to do but lacked knowledge to perform again.
That sparked his journey and there are others as for example me who tried what people assume true in the golf theory and when talking to golf pro´s I ask them if they really belive the things they just tells me due for me it simply dont match what they do. Telling a golf pro their own swing is harder to perform and to do than this other thing while the new one makes you longer, more straight (less dispersion pattern) and with less energy is a chock to their system.
Once you demonstrate that to them very few have the psyche to handle it. Most go back to their stack and tilt, leadbetter, haney, Foley, Ballard or such due to it feels safe and comforting and those guys never make it to the tour.

I enjoyed our conversation.

[JPGolf FL]

Just to be clear, did you say that the right hip moves towards the ball in a traditional swing when you were explaining it in your video?

[vision541]

Hi Flop:
Although you and Squish use different terminology, the swing feels very similiar....for me, keeping C7 stable takes care of alot of problems...one of the main differences I hear is when Squish talks about power coming from the shoulders rotating around and under C7 with a snap of the forearms into the ball...you seem to speak more about keeping C7 stable while following the angle down to the ball...only practice until impact is perfect is going to work for me....

I have studied the golf swing ad nauseum, and every time I stay with a particular teacher, i find one or two ideas that I incorporate with some degree of success but it wasn't until I practiced yours and Squish's ideas that my handicap dropped...that says it all...I look forward to doing alot of work during the off-season...

[vision541]

Sir Squish:
Would you expand a little on your commentrs on 3/15 " [size=3]No thought to transferring the weight just turn[/size] from the top. and[size=3] hit the ball."...I thought that you advocate crunching the QL which is a different focus and movement unless I have misunderstood...[/size]

[size=3]Thanks[/size]

[Neil J Franklin]

Flopper,

Why won't you post about how to do the proper pelvis movement? Trade secret or not, does not mean that a lot of people are following your words and even if you post the secret, it will not stop you working with tour players as they need continuos hands on instruction, but it may make a lot of us amature players happy!!!

Please help us out and if that means we need to buy a video, then I am sure you will have many takers here!!

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='Neil J Franklin' timestamp='1353116243' post='5945401']
Flopper,

Why won't you post about how to do the proper pelvis movement? Trade secret or not, does not mean that a lot of people are following your words and even if you post the secret, it will not stop you working with tour players as they need continuos hands on instruction, but it may make a lot of us amature players happy!!!

Please help us out and if that means we need to buy a video, then I am sure you will have many takers here!!
[/quote]

Squsih already posted it so?
Your thinking the same as many when I post something like that there is a secret when there is none.
[b]When people cant do and believe in magic that is what happens.[/b]
For me, Hogan didnt understand his swing, what he says and demonstrate and then swing, dont match.
He then obviously did something else than his swing to be good at golf.
What made him good had then nothing to do with his swing.

[b]The body [/b]will be doing the right thing [i]when you follow my previous advice[/i] when you done enough variation to let the [b]perception blocks [/b]you currently might have get out of the way due to being able to do it. I dont post much technique talk as its not needed and more often than not make people not able to play golf.
[b]Swing to target end of story.[/b]
Once your able to do that your swing is better due to you need to be better to do that.
If you get stuck due to trying to listen to technique talk well its common.

[i][b]swing to target, keep c7 stable, lets ride the angle and if you do things as the way the body is designed (externally) without thinking how it should move (Internally) according to golf theory which btw is hugely mistaken your able to have a golf swing that is pretty much superb in a few days.[/b][/i] (its that easy)
I dont post technique talk, its not needed. If you want that there is a few hundred people on this forum alone that will set you with enough details.
Going the golf swing guru theory (forum experts who are mistaken about the golf swing) is a path to limitation and I dont do such especially when people who are able to play decent golf dont understand their own mechanics.

I dont mind if people dont understand me or tell me I got it wrong, as I am able to see the difference in how muscles move in real time a skill I developed over the years and for me, Hogan didnt understand. I see the same difference in the Austin camp where Mike Austin did things he didnt teach to others and they then dont do what he was able to do. Its called [b]discrepancy[/b].
When I am able to notice the difference and understand why the difference happens, I am also able to do things differently and obviously teach it but not in the same shape and form you want me to as I find that boring. I get the same questions I go get some coffe since if you havent done your homework, nothing new comes from me. I dont have anything new to post unless your able to do things I posted already. If your not able to do those, it wont matter due to you wont understand that new thing either. (same happens with the Golf Pro I coach)

[b]Should you despair then?[/b]
I pointed your in the proper direction and others, if you or they choose to follow the advice and end up hitting 300+ yard drivers or more making it simple its not my choice.
You can continue struggle, seek the light and secret that surely must exist out there or follow the same simple advice that made people great, [i]practice variation with proper feedback dig it out in the dirt[/i]
.I dont like forums due to I only teach hands on as anything else, video etc..people cant follow and do due to if your not able to do it, you cant understand theory and then do it.
Ton of people own videos but still cant hit a 300+yard driver on command or hit a wedge within a foot.

My approach isnt a comfortable we all hug and sing in a group.
its elite performance level and anything else dont interest me.
To be able to do elite perfomance level the above posts I made allows you to.
If your a Golf Pro serious PGA tour level or similiar, then I am all ears.

[Neil J Franklin]

Fair enough Flopper!

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='Neil J Franklin' timestamp='1353149182' post='5946241']
Fair enough Flopper!
[/quote]

I bought a coffee grinder with whole beans so every morning I am able to smell fresh coffee when I grind beans and make fresh coffee.
It cost more to make each cup but for me it allows this wonderful experience where I truly enjoy the morning breakfast every single day.
I regard golf the same way it should be this wonderful enjoyable adventure making it simple to enjoy the work you do.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1352997697' post='5938391']

I wont post how to do the proper pelvis movement, in any way or form either here or on my website, as its a tradesecret.

[/quote]

I wonder why Neil would think there is a secret..... Sorry flopper, not being confrontational but I calls it like I sees it. And you seem to have missed my question. Did you describe in your video a traditional swing as having the right hip rotating towards the ball?

[Neil J Franklin]

Sponge,

It is a quote from an earlier post on this page from Flopper:

"I won't post how to do the proper pelvis movement, in any way or form either here or on my website as it's a trade secret"

[JPGolf FL]

Yea I quoted it in my post. Being a bit sarcastic I was. I know I should just forget it but his inconsistencies are just too evident.

[Neil J Franklin]

Just been out and hit some balls and Flopper is right - Squish has told us how to do it and so has Flopper and although the descriptions are different the result is the same. For me this is what I have concluded:

It's all about the downswing angle and Squish will say 'squish and turn' and Flopper calls it 'riding the angle'. For me it is the angle of the squish that get's misinterpreted and if you just perform a side bend, you are in danger of coming over the top and that was happening to me, so looking at one of Floppers videos, he talks about not rotating the ribcage prior to impact and that solved the problem. Now the squish sends your navel over to your right toe and you can also think of the 4 o' clock, 10 o' clock move in Mike Dunnaways video. Not rotating the rib cage keeps you on the right path and now you can throw or keep the hands passive as the club face will square up and you will feel weightless on the right side/leg and the arms will pull you through after impact.

That's it for me and I am not going to over think this anymore and hitting some 30 year old blades on a cold Texas morning in my yard has convinced me I am on the right track as I did not miss a shot, so I will stick with it.

Sponge - yes, I thought the same which is why I asked the question earlier!

[vision541]

Hi Neil
I have arrived at a similar conclusion....Flop and Squish have provided all the necessary details...the difference being that Squish goes into many more details than does Flopper but if I assimilate the two, my results are bascally the same....

So for me...I am having success squishing the left QL going back and the right coming down while my left knee moves back and in...keeping my C7 stable is critical and I find that just the idea of allowing my head to remain over my right side until I make impact does the trick....because I love all the details (which I think Flop is correct that that can be disastrous) I like to incorporate different ideas like torquing etc....the hardest part for me is when I go to the range to just swing to the target until I make the impact I want.....almost feel "naked" not having specific things to practice....so that I have come to realize is my needed area to focus upon...ironically, to just not focus and let it go....

Following flop and squish this season I have played my best golf....so I am staying with it...

[RBImGuy]

In darkness light.
In the land of the blind the half blind man in the cave is king.
(Insert proper quote)
In the area of quantum physics there was some time ago 5 major theories competiting about the most acurate description of the quantum effect in string theory.
One smart guy held a lecture showing how they all describe the same thing from different angles.

[b]Perception rules the game of golf.[/b]
The human brain isnt exactly exactly perfect as what goes on are shaped based upon what one think one see as much as one actually see.
I work a lot in the field of perceptions analyzing behaviours in how people do things they dont know how they do and to a fair amount are unaware how they do it.
What people try to do is to get better but often its not based upon some facts and more about how one come to believe its suppose to be done.

Letting one do things simple as I do it allows a natural feedback to happen without preconcived notion what should be there due to video, textbook insert your popular theory of the swing here.
The effect is if you try to do what you want to happen aka how for example people try a swing change like Tiger Woods does or such it takes a long time to get it to stick and be automatic due to them try to fit the theory in how to play better golf and he is obsessed with owning the swing as Moe Norman did or Ben Hogan did or as Mike Austin did. Tiger wont get there in his career.
Nick Faldo lost his whole game after 1996, he hit it so short and for a big man using big musles to swing, he lost his dynamic action and with that he also lost more importantly his "feel". Now, he won 6 majors and 3 with some luck still you got to be there to win and he was consistent even to the extent of boring but once his dynamic action was gone, he was out of the game and ended up talking about it. He lost his feel due to listen to a swing guru, Faldo had a mental issue performing in majors, which he belived that a swing change would fix, he just didnt know it also would shorten his career by 15 years.

Golf should be dynamic action, blood and tears, emotions with joy. You now see robots out there all trying to find the secret none has and instead of finding out how to create dynamic action, hitting it long without breaking their body and with less effort allowing them to play golf at higher age if they want they simply are as stuck and lost as an amateur just with a higher paycheck. I wouldnt be suprised if Yani tseng is lost to the swing theory also.

Good job as far guys.

[Neil J Franklin]

Good to hear Vision and it is the same for me as I am playing my best golf, I just tend to overthink and then analyze all of the posts and get tied up with each specific technical motion. I cannot think of torquing for example as I wil then focus on that at the expense of everything else. Squish is correct - one move and that move is the squish...BUT...you have to do it correctly or you will not square the club and that is why I like the riding the angle concept without rotating the ribcage through impact and of course, keeping C7 stable and what I meant to add in my last post is that you can do the move slowly and deliberately as you find your touch for the short game.

Dan Shauger in his teaching talks about winding the shoulders in the back swing and then holding that position as you shift your weight in the downswing and in effect, you are not rotating the rib cage - just another way of feeling the move and of course Mike Dunnaway talks about the 4 - 10 move and feeling as if you are hitting off the right side of the body - all is accomplished through the correct squish move which allows you to ride the angle.

Now heading to the range!

[marte]

Neil & Vision & Flopper

Neil said....""Squish is correct - one move and that move is the squish...BUT...[b]you have to do it correctly[/b]...""

Everyone probably views "correct" differently. In my case I aim my [b]squish [/b]to an area just an inch or 2 directly in front of the ball. If standing in the middle of a clockface looking down with 12 oclock off my nose I squish to just left of the 12. ---[b]-[/b]-0------------------------------------
Where abouts do you guys aim your squish?

[Neil J Franklin]

Marte,

Just back from the range and here is what I did - i started by taking the club back using the hands and pulling the club back to 4 o'clock and hands are kept low as this is a small swing. Shoulders will turn as a reaction to this and then, staying back, I extend through impact to 10 o'clock. This is the line I want to squish on as in the downswing on the full swing, the club head will follow this line and to stay back and on line, you have to use the QL muscle and not throw your arms around to your left and not rotate the ribcage. This gave me a visual for the club head path and the squish and balls were hit straight and long. considering it was at best a half swing. After doing this for a while you can then feel the QL crunch direction and put it into the full swing.

Just something I tried out and it worked very well and gave me more confidence to throw from the top, without fear of hooking/slicing. Bad shots with the driver were miss hits off the center of the face, but the ball was still in play and a few fades and draws with the irons, but again, playable!

[megaprimatus]

Trade secret?!

Sounds suspiciously close to believing in, purporting, or marketing an [b]actual secret[/b]. Promoting a secret of this sort seems antithetical to the original intent of this thread.

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='megaprimatus' timestamp='1353208006' post='5948553']
Trade secret?!

Sounds suspiciously close to believing in, purporting, or marketing an [b]actual secret[/b]. Promoting a secret of this sort seems antithetical to the original intent of this thread.
[/quote]

Read the follow up posts I made.
People still belive in magic also.
I dont believe in magic.

Ben Hogan didnt understand his golf swing, and people still believe he had a secret?
I see the difference in how he explained it and did it and take his slow motion swing and overlap it to his real one and you will see its not a match.

What Mike Austin did in his swing can be seen for anyone on youtube.
How can any of that be a secret????
seriously?
That none of his students are able to do it the same way Mike did in spite of Mike himself teaching it should tell you something.
It does tell me something.

[JPGolf FL]

Curious flopper, you have said 100 times that hogan didn't understand his swing because what he said and what he did didnt match. What specifically was it that he said about his swing that didnt match?

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='thesponge' timestamp='1353243753' post='5949237']
Curious flopper, you have said 100 times that hogan didn't understand his swing because what he said and what he did didnt match. What specifically was it that he said about his swing that didnt match?
[/quote]

either you see it or dont.
watch the demonstration match pattern of language, representation and movement of motion trajectory.
compare that to full swing pattern and it dont match.
discrepancy happens.
what Hogan stated and did, dont match.
still played great golf in spite of it.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_17DCSI7Rg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_17DCSI7Rg[/url]

[JPGolf FL]

Are you saying that hogan didnt move his lower body first and allow his upper body to follow????????? Is this what you mean when you say hogan didnt understand his swing???

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='thesponge' timestamp='1353244691' post='5949271']
Are you saying that hogan didnt move his lower body first and allow his upper body to follow????????? Is this what you mean when you say hogan didnt understand his swing???
[/quote]

What I say is stated above.
it dont match I dont make judgement calls or value why.
he is dead same as Mike Austin, though to ask them about it.
if he demonstrated what he did in his full swing there be no discrepancy.
There is.
Same btw is true with Mike Austin, so a pattern is there with the player not able to understand their own swing and fully teach it.
so whenever I get told by a teacher/player/trainer about how to do a golf swing it seems the above pattern holds true.
Then for me I simply take note those dont understand their own swing or what they teach.
Dont mean they cant adapt and play golf or teach it but it just dont match.

I talked to a few over the years, and they tell me things that they slice the ball or they hit a hook.
If they are a pro it happens seldom if ever and more often than not a golf pro issue is with a hook.
its due to they are not able to balance the two forces in the downswing properly and soon become afraid of hitting it left further aggrevating the issue.(Ben Hogan had that in his pre-accident swing)
In an Austin swing there is one force to balance where all the other actions happens as a result which means less timing, less injury prone, longer with less effort and more accurate.

It can be watched by long driving people due to when they use a modern/classical approach they need to compensate a lot to not crush their own body.
The pattern of modern/classical swing mechanics need to balance two forces due to the rotation needed for timing. cant hide that.
If that is true, then by default its more complicated to do right out of the bat.

You want me to tell you what I see but that isnt how I operate.
I dont say that due to the same pattern above is true there also.
either you see it or dont, simple as that.
if your willing to do the work to see it isnt for me to say.

I spent 3 years applying my skills to define the golf swing and game.
as I am doing that I share some of that and for me it dont matter if its a popular or unpopular definition since if its defined, it allows you to be for example consistent beyond what people normally do in golf or hit it longer with less effort or be more accurate with less dispersion pattern. When I test the things I find, and I hear, I hit it longer now, more accurate and it allows me better confidence I still check if they use placebo or if what I taught caused a difference.
I dont belive in magic.

[b]Edit:[/b] to clarify my stance, until I am sure what I see and describe match I wont talk about it.
Its just how I do my work as when I do talk about stuff I also can back it up.

[JPGolf FL]

Man it is hard to get a straight answer here. Let's try simple yes or no. Hogan explained in the video you posted that he moves his lower body first in the down swing and allows his upper body to follow. Are you saying that he did not actually do this and this is why he didn't understand his swing?

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='thesponge' timestamp='1353247889' post='5949421']
Man it is hard to get a straight answer here. Let's try simple yes or no. Hogan explained in the video you posted that he moves his lower body first in the down swing and allows his upper body to follow. Are you saying that he did not actually do this and this is why he didn't understand his swing?
[/quote]

What you want I cant give you reasons listed above in previous post.
That is the answer. When I have ensured what I see and describe match, I get back to this.
Might be years tho.
I dont answer precisely unless I know what I describe matches what I see, I am not a theory guy I am a science factual evidence guy.
I dont speculate and offers theory and guesswork. Then again I am more interested in the elite performance of the game of golf, not the swing. I find swing talk pretty much boring. your question is such
Once you understand how to position yourself for a throw you can play golf at a level few managed in the history of golf.
and besides I only teach hands on in person, anything else leaves people trying to fit it into previous preconceptions as seen here in this thread blocking out what I wrote. Unelss you do your homework, I simply dont respond to any new questions.

Look at squish posts, all the info is there.
he dont need to do more than copy and paste his previous posts due to the questions are the same.