Squish n turn

[RBImGuy]

Flop

When you talk aboutthe pelvis moving down and out.....do you consciously push the pelvis down and out? I am trying to grasp the meaning of external attention but not really sure what you mean...

 

Huge rant...

 

distance to ball, doing that makes it external.

finding the angle downswing, will create full external reference.

and no, pelvis will move properly once those are done right.

Trying to consiously move pelvis is like a lot of posts I see on this and other subjects and other forums, people really have been brainwashed by golf theory.

Unless you can do it, there is no point in understanding specific angles due to its a too hard a task for the human body and brain to do.

 

if the C7 is stable, its all about the downward angle, once that is happening your pelvis will move properly, the evidence is in the previous video and until the short stop slide moves that right foot, your pelvis aint moving right. Your whole bodyweight should be going down into the right pelvis to then swing around meeting a front left side.

cant be done by technical analyzing or knowledge, I know people have some ideas and ideal but they cant play golf either due to they cant do it.

Its like communism, great idea but sucks in practice. Like you know the other way around free speech and such nice in theory but kinda sucks in practice when everyone voice an opinion.

 

Why are you trying to analyze something you cant do?

seems counterproductive to me.

Impact is what counts, to get there follow simple advice until your letting the body to do its natural path, forget swing theory, those guys have it wrong mostly anyhow.

Unless your one of those that likes what is familiar and then dont want to take a bath even if the water is nice and warm.

To get the perception you need to swing properly just forget all swing theory and practice some variation until you are able to distinguish, aha that is a good swing due to impact was really good. Feel cant be understood. it has to be felt by digging in the dirt until its there, you cant understand it.

I cant do everything I understand about the golf swing but I practice until it happens to be there once its there I take note aha this is how my body must move to make that happen and then I might analyze it. Until that happens, I basically apply variation until I am able to replicate the action and once I am able to do so, I check video to take note if I am on the proper track which impact is already showing me before video due to I want to check if what I percive the swing to be in my case matches the model I use. Took me 3 years to get there.

 

There are no answers out there about this, none of Mike Austins students swing like Mike himself did, none.

They sure do hit it long, but capturing what Mike did? no way.

I watch a Hogan video where Ben is telling you about the golf swing from legs and up, and tells things and then does a demo what he means and swings, and it dosnt match what he talked about. I go why are people so facinated by Hogan when he obviously didnt know what he did?

 

You need to build/find your own way of swinging, and you got enough information from me to do so.

If you wanna do take such an approach as I suggest its not for me to say due to I find swing technique talk boring.

Either you let yourself find how your body needs to be organized (move) to make a good golf swing by following the advice I given (external oriented) or be stuck forever in the technique camp.

I cant tell you exactly how trough a forum, as simply put words make bad replacement for personal instructions hands on.

 

so you ask a question that I cant really answer.

If you put enough body momentum into the downswing, your whole right side and body is weightless until just before impact and once that happens the pelvis has no other option than to move the way its been done by evolution you really want me to question the Darwin evolution path here? ;)

If the downward angle isnt proper you hook it off the planet due to rotating and will need compensating if that is happening you will either flip it or block yourself out.

 

In the video from Hans session the big change is his angle of shoulders and arms coming into impact. if you want to understand angle, its all there in his 2 last session swings vs day one. To actually be able to see it you cant do it from theory or golf swings people normally do as that will block it out.

any PGA pro out there when they find out I teach that my phone is gonna go warm.

 

/rant off :)

Left day one.

right day 2.

[Neil J Franklin]

Flopper you are absolutely correct, the swing has to be understood by feel and just got back from the range today and for the first time in my golfing life, I have felt the sensation of weightlessness in the downswing. I am the first to admit that I over analyze the golf swing and get too caught up on technique. The simple thought of the pelvis moving down and out has done it for me and of course in doing so, the squish move is automatic and I think Floppers advice will help anyone who is trying to understand or is struggling with the MA type of swing

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='Neil J Franklin' timestamp='1352214836' post='5898561']
Flopper you are absolutely correct, the swing has to be understood by feel and just got back from the range today and for the first time in my golfing life, I have felt the sensation of weightlessness in the downswing. I am the first to admit that I over analyze the golf swing and get too caught up on technique. The simple thought of the pelvis moving down and out has done it for me and of course in doing so, the squish move is automatic and I think Floppers advice will help anyone who is trying to understand or is struggling with the MA type of swing
[/quote]

Epiphany is always nice Neil!

Its not rocketscience here.
To send a rocket to the moon NASA use newton physics, not einsteins relativity. If they did the rocket might not end up at the moon relatively
Newton is used due to its simpler to calculate forces.

Now we could talk about the technique a lot, sure but in relation to what?
Perfect swing? No such thing.
An optimal motion built for your age, flexibility and that also minimize injury due to twisting the lower back.

The modern/classic swing needs to balance two forces in the downswing, and not turn/rotate the shoulders to early which makes you hook it or block it out. (tends to lead to all kinds of issues etc...)
that is a built in compensation already which few master during the golf career.
using a motion that rely on gravity and body motion for its timing and that turns/rotate after impact and use natural body actions built by evolution, makes for me much more sense.

[Neil J Franklin]

Flopper the turn after impact is vital to understand as well as the half turn of the hips on the downswing. Allowing gravity to work puts you on a collision course to the ball, as Squish would say, but as you say, it has to be felt and not pieced together by technique. Your video earlier in this thread, where you are making swings with your left arm is excellent and I do this now as a warm up because it allows the body to move correctly, supporting the motion and it was by doing this that something just clicked and all of a sudden, I had this feel of weightlessness and the down and out motion of the pelvis. From there, I just took it to the ball and crushed it!

Your thoughts about the modern swing are also correct and you can see people struggling every day on the golf range, not just with the technique, but also the inconsistency. More importantly, they are setting themselves up for injury

[Squish]

It's a pendulum action of the hip, all one must do is release it once it is swung back.
The compression of the right side does this, it detaches the heel and allows the spine and hip to swing.
The swing of the right hip brings the left arm/hands even or ahead of the ball.
A turn without that pendulum action of the spine will cause over the top. That makes for a independent shift or slide.
The simple swing of the spine will "index the hips" properly without conscious thought if the footwork is correct.
Heel to Heel supports the hip and spine. The balls of the feet support the forward inclination of the head shoulders.

When one gets it, it is as simple as taking the back swing, then returning that entire upper assembly back to the ball.
One must allow the spine to swing freely without drive or impedance.

The "swish" will and must occur well after impact.
The unimpeded swing of the spine causes the arm and hands to advance for this to occur ahead of the ball.

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='Neil J Franklin' timestamp='1352216596' post='5898711']
Flopper the turn after impact is vital to understand as well as the half turn of the hips on the downswing. Allowing gravity to work puts you on a collision course to the ball, as Squish would say, but as you say, it has to be felt and not pieced together by technique. Your video earlier in this thread, where you are making swings with your left arm is excellent and I do this now as a warm up because it allows the body to move correctly, supporting the motion and it was by doing this that something just clicked and all of a sudden, I had this feel of weightlessness and the down and out motion of the pelvis. From there, I just took it to the ball and crushed it!

Your thoughts about the modern swing are also correct and you can see people struggling every day on the golf range, not just with the technique, but also the inconsistency. More importantly, they are setting themselves up for injury
[/quote]

[b]Not alone in the injury caused by the modern swing crowd critics.[/b]
30 year old pro level, discs crashed, couldnt play for a year.
I met him last year in spain he had left foot injury, some other things also.
he worked out, really focused and ambitious.
Last I heard from a friend was he had discs crash in his back.
No matter the TPI, Rory and other modern golfers are headed to surgery.
Its a bad thing due to the body as no error marginal when doing it slightly wrong.
then the twist might cause a career ending swing.

Body needs to put the weight down and out to balance the force of speed one delievers, its true in long jump, as well any other athletic endvour people do.
What Mike Austin did discover by chance was to do a clothline release, this with a good smart golf pro without video to correct his bad swing release allow future golfers to hit it long and straight.
You can play good even great golf with any swing[b], its not the swing that make you shoot 55.[/b]
If it allows you a more efficient motion, and is easier on your body and producing more distance with less effort, you have a good recipe if not to say great for bigger marginal of error.

A lot of people go into what swing is the best [b]but its always the player that will be the best[/b], in regard to injury preventing the Austin based one is the best however as it allows a free hinged body spine and pelvis to move along accordingly. The Pro I work with hit it longer, with better accuracy with less effort to the extent he is often suprised he is so accurate now due to a lack of timing needed.
I just dont do swing stuff I also work with the mental aspects, how to optimize the experience while playing, correct things not needed to do out there playing golf.
His back issues he had with the modern swing are now gone also.

Put the day one and day 2 swing in a loop with spoon.
Hans;
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXX3cr39zkk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXX3cr39zkk[/url]

[vision541]

You an really see more QL compression in the second swing.....great looking swing....

[vision541]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1352242279' post='5900497']
It's a pendulum action of the hip, all one must do is release it once it is swung back.
The compression of the right side does this, it detaches the heel and allows the spine and hip to swing.
The swing of the right hip brings the left arm/hands even or ahead of the ball.
A turn without that pendulum action of the spine will cause over the top. That makes for a independent shift or slide.
The simple swing of the spine will "index the hips" properly without conscious thought if the footwork is correct.
Heel to Heel supports the hip and spine. The balls of the feet support the forward inclination of the head shoulders.

When one gets it, it is as simple as taking the back swing, then returning that entire upper assembly back to the ball.
One must allow the spine to swing freely without drive or impedance.


The "swish" will and must occur w
The unimpeded swing of the spine causes the arm and hands to advance for this to occur ahead of the ball.
[/quote]



Hi Sir
You talk about moving the pendulum back and thru impact...what is the right arm doing? I believe you or Flopper talked about throwing it out at the top of transition...am I correct about that and if so could you elaborate a bit?

Thanks

Peter

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='vision541' timestamp='1352334688' post='5905473']
You an really see more QL compression in the second swing.....great looking swing....
[/quote]

still not optimal yet. he has 30+ yards more to get out of it.
with the time we had, the improvement is good enough.

[vision541]

[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1352335109' post='5905509']
[quote name='vision541' timestamp='1352334688' post='5905473']
You an really see more QL compression in the second swing.....great looking swing....
[/quote]

still not optimal yet. he has 30+ yards more to get out of it.
with the time we had, the improvement is good enough.
[/quote]Hey Flop

How are u...
you mean he will get 30 + more tds?? Will his swing speed have to increase or will it be gained just by swing efficiency?

[Squish]

[quote name='vision541' timestamp='1352334945' post='5905501']
[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1352242279' post='5900497']
It's a pendulum action of the hip, all one must do is release it once it is swung back.
The compression of the right side does this, it detaches the heel and allows the spine and hip to swing.
The swing of the right hip brings the left arm/hands even or ahead of the ball.
A turn without that pendulum action of the spine will cause over the top. That makes for a independent shift or slide.
The simple swing of the spine will "index the hips" properly without conscious thought if the footwork is correct.
Heel to Heel supports the hip and spine. The balls of the feet support the forward inclination of the head shoulders.

When one gets it, it is as simple as taking the back swing, then returning that entire upper assembly back to the ball.
One must allow the spine to swing freely without drive or impedance.


The "swish" will and must occur w
The unimpeded swing of the spine causes the arm and hands to advance for this to occur ahead of the ball.
[/quote]



Hi Sir
You talk about moving the pendulum back and thru impact...what is the right arm doing? I believe you or Flopper talked about throwing it out at the top of transition...am I correct about that and if so could you elaborate a bit?

Thanks

Peter
[/quote]

The right arm is doing this: [attachment=1412597:350x.jpg] Think "tuck rule".
One is throwing the clubhead away from the ball preventing the right arm from unflexing to an early extension.
One is further pulling the bow string back till the hands get even or ahead of the ball.
You are throwing the entire arm wrist club assembly as a unit allowing the arm to extend naturally.
The arms must not move independantly from the pivot toward impact.
They must react to the throwing action.

And it is the throw which causes a clockwise twist or supination of the right forearm from the top.
As you do this, the entire assembly of the upper linkage is brought into impact with the swing of the spine.
It must be let go at the top for this to occur. If you let go at the top and miss hit check your pivot.

It is not held in a static position, but thrown into position as the right arm and 7 position of the left arm are brought into impact.
You must be very loose in the wrists, feeling the weight of the clubhead so you can allow it to whip.
The wrists are the tip of the whip.

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='vision541' timestamp='1352383144' post='5907211']
[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1352335109' post='5905509']
[quote name='vision541' timestamp='1352334688' post='5905473']
You an really see more QL compression in the second swing.....great looking swing....
[/quote]

still not optimal yet. he has 30+ yards more to get out of it.
with the time we had, the improvement is good enough.
[/quote]Hey Flop

How are u...
you mean he will get 30 + more tds?? Will his swing speed have to increase or will it be gained just by swing efficiency?
[/quote]

Both.
Increased proper action of the pelvis not there yet.
allowing a better efficiency and also more speed due to increased power.
Even though his motion is improved he still isnt where he should be fully. Once he is there and able to ride the angle down he can increase the output with a lot more.
I expect him to be able to swing at 130mph or so at average with spoon/driver.
That with increased better leverage into impact.
His 60% swing is then as long or longer than the field but offer higher accuracy and marginal.

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1352383440' post='5907239']

You must be very loose in the wrists, feeling the weight of the clubhead so you can allow it to whip.
The wrists are the tip of the whip.
[/quote]

Most cant do that though.
one reason lighter clubs shafts.
I cant feel my driver moving its simply to light, a more beginer driver I am able to though which I use from time to time to practice with.
and the impulse factor is often present even at pro levels tighten the grip to much.
took me 3 weeks of daily range practice to get there myself.

[Squish]

[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1352386475' post='5907437']
[quote name='Squish' timestamp='1352383440' post='5907239']
You must be very loose in the wrists, feeling the weight of the clubhead so you can allow it to whip.
The wrists are the tip of the whip.
[/quote]

Most cant do that though.
one reason lighter clubs shafts.
I cant feel my driver moving its simply to light, a more beginer driver I am able to though which I use from time to time to practice with.
and the impulse factor is often present even at pro levels tighten the grip to much.
took me 3 weeks of daily range practice to get there myself.
[/quote]

This is true, I like heavy clubs.
For the primitive golfer the complaint was when going from hickory to steel, they lost the sense of where clubhead was.
My method is grip with the fingers and loose wrists.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='vision541' timestamp='1352383144' post='5907211']
[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1352335109' post='5905509']
[quote name='vision541' timestamp='1352334688' post='5905473']
You an really see more QL compression in the second swing.....great looking swing....
[/quote]

still not optimal yet. he has 30+ yards more to get out of it.
with the time we had, the improvement is good enough.
[/quote]Hey Flop

How are u...
you mean he will get 30 + more tds?? Will his swing speed have to increase or will it be gained just by swing efficiency?
[/quote]

If you take a look at this year's PGA driving stats, you will see some interesting stuff. Between Bubba Watson, JB Holmes, Dustin Johnson, etc... Their average driver clubhead speed is around 124. Their highest is around 129. Their average carry is between 302 and 307. So according to flopper his student will soon be easily swinging about 10 miles an hour faster than the top guys on the PGA Tour, easily as he says. And he will also be driving at 340 easily. That sounds pretty good to me. Where do I sign up? I've already tried ordering the hammer, I even screamed boom whenever I swung. . That didn't work. I'll try anything.

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='thesponge' timestamp='1352400359' post='5908565']

If you take a look at this year's PGA driving stats, you will see some interesting stuff. Between Bubba Watson, JB Holmes, Dustin Johnson, etc... Their average driver clubhead speed is around 124. Their highest is around 129. Their average carry is between 302 and 307. So according to flopper his student will soon be easily swinging about 10 miles an hour faster than the top guys on the PGA Tour, easily as he says. And he will also be driving at 340 easily. That sounds pretty good to me. Where do I sign up? I've already tried ordering the hammer, I even screamed boom whenever I swung. . That didn't work. I'll try anything.
[/quote]

Those stats lie a lot.
hit a drive in fairways that let you have a load of roll isnt exactly show of numbers.
It is also a lot of negative angle of attack on those PGA pro drivers.
He drives it today at 310+ with ease, he have hit it over 380 on summer hard fairways which bascially dont prove anything.
I dont work with amateures.

So not sure why you would post such a ridiculous post.
Unless you have something to add about the subject I suggest you dont post here in this thread.

[JPGolf FL]

Sorry, didnt realize PGA stats lie a lot.

[Neil J Franklin]

OK my turn to rant!

Having taken this game seriously over the last 9 years, I can say wholeheartedly, that the teachings of Squish, have lowered my handicap significantly (16 to 9). However, the teachings of Squish are not understood that easily and if I had not have had a personal lesson, then I am sure that I would not have understood his concepts as easily and that applies only to me personally, as I am sure that others woulld have understood from the writing. Having had a lesson with Squish (this is what this thread is all about), his words became a lot clearer because of the hands on instruction. I think that a glossary of anatomical terms would go a long way!!

Having got back to Dallas, I had many more questions and these were answered by Squish over the phone and I continued to make progress and I still am. Watching the video of Flopper on page 30 of the thread, posted on 8 October, simply gave me another means to understand the golf swing and it helped me tremendously - we are all here, in essence, to understand a swing that was popularized by MA. This video is key for me, in trying to understand the swing that we are all trying to emulate and it gives us a good starting point.

Going back to 2006, I attended a three day golf teaching event with Peter Croker, a PGA eacher from Australia and at that time, I had only been playing golf for 3 years. Peter went against the grain of the modern teaching and in essence, taught a throwing of the golf club head from A to B - A being the top of the back swing and B being the ball and the line of the throw was literally straight from the top to the ball - like a karate chop with the right hand. Now Peter, was all about being centered in the golf swing with no transition either back or forward and he taught that if you throw, you "go" and by "go" he meant that your throw would turn the hips. The reason that I did not stay with Mr Croker was my own - I was simply too new to golf to understand and follow a system like his, as for me at the time, it was probably too much information and too soon, but I must stress, that was me at the time!

Now to this forum and this thead - people are genorously giving their time and knowledge and this should be respected by all and most of the time this is true. Rather than challenge an opinion or a post, go and try it for yourself and then report the results.

Today, I follow the teachings of Squish and I like the words from Flopper, especially the video as mentioned above, but I also remember the 'throw' as taught by Mr Croker and this also helps me in terms of a reference point because if I ever 'lose it' in the golf swing, then I simply make a turn in the backswing and then have the feeling of my shoulders staying in place, as I 'throw' the hands down and directly to the ball and let the rest happen. I may lose a little distance, but I am usually straight!!

Rant over!

[RBImGuy]

 

we are all here, in essence, to understand a swing that was popularized by MA

 

Now to this forum and this thead - people are genorously giving their time and knowledge and this should be respected by all and most of the time this is true. Rather than challenge an opinion or a post, go and try it for yourself and then report the results.

 

 

 

Rant over!

 

No reason to defend since the golf field is a mess anyhow.

Not to say its not needed to clarify ones own position on the matter however Neil :superman:

 

I start with a story,

In the local 9 hole competition the 6 of cotober in rain wet conditions and 7celsuis there was this long driving on 9 hole on fairway. The wait was long and we talked a little and one guy said and he is 70 years old none hit it 280 yard in the club and I smiled and raised my hand, so when it was time to hit the pressure was on with them cheering.

 

Stats lie, it will show to some extent the tendency you have in your game.

speed in the modern golf swing comes at a cost of using more force than needed and a risk of injury which we see with young golfers in the PGA tour.

They are fit and have the best care that modern technhology has to offer.

so while you can play with a modern swing, it wont offer the accuracy and also will risk injury and will be using more force for the same effect. (the idea and theory wasnt suppose to be that)

A classical swing is a lot better but have to many extents gone away in the teaching due to incorrect assumptions based on video and theory.

swing speed is one variable, angle of attack another, so while one guy swings at 120mph and another also, their balltrajectory isnt the same.

 

Amateures like to debate things they dont understand, when I talk to pro´s they go, so you can make me hit this ball longer and more straight and lessen the injury risk?

I go yes, ok why should I listen to you then? I go and explain why due to those guys/girls are not stupid.

So they go, dude make sense. What people believe is what they been told and read about and also what they say on TV, once you look at how the body moves naturally, and try some of this, its not just better, its also easier to do and perform.

PGA Pro´s have a timing they do by feel.

Once that timing is changed which did happen for Frank Lickliter 2 he lost his game due to him went to a golf theory trainer to become better at the game he loved, the trainer ruined his game for years. I ask "why should the player become worse when he learns a easier and better swing?" The player I teaches becomes better with the session.

Anyhow, if you can do a golf game by reading statistics and prove how that makes you do a golf swing, go ahead debate it.

Its just silly even stupid at best but that is how many amateures spend their time on golf forums, debate how long their drives are and seldom is even near their distances they think, and even then its never about average 60% force into it while hitting it longer than the average Pro.

A heavier club allows you to engage feel better one thing Tiger Woods fought when his old club and the feel he had wasnt matched by newer graphic shafts.

The hickroy shafts was likely easier to hit with as any object when the clubhead is felt during the motion.

That is human feel. We can adapt to some extent, and if we are able to do a golf swing, most people can hit anything then pretty much well.

 

The golf theory is a mess, the modern swing and its ideas are at best wrong due to forcing the human body into positions its not made to do just dont make sense to me. Then to have people belive its a good idea based upon the bad backs, discs broken, surgery they have at young ages its beyond me.

A golf PGA pro is afraid to loose their feel, due to them have no idea how they produce it.

Once you help them define it for them they can shift to a new swing in the timeframe people call impossible.

 

I end with the story,

as I stepped up and they went cheering "go for it!", I went for it and won the long drive competition on 9hole.

agaisnt kids half my age.

 

I love when your able to perform under pressure.

Most people just like to talk about things that basically dont matter. :stink:

 

The below image is 4 hours of difference from day one to day two.

I think I say "I rest my case"

 

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='thesponge' timestamp='1352482355' post='5912473']
Flopper I'm pretty sure, in an underhanded and passive aggressive way, you just called me stupid and stated that I'm an amateur that does not understand. You made broad statements assuming that I don't understand how the body works. Trust me I have studied extensively. I've been playing golf for a little over seven years and am a scratch player. That's not to boast, because I can't stand boasting on Internet forums, that's just to give you an idea that I do know what I'm talking about. I can hit the ball over 300 with a somewhat classic swing. It's more of a Bubba Watson swing, minus the skating feet. I do not overswing and quite honestly there is no crash at the end as in your swing. So It's simply bothers me when you rant on and on about how your method is the only method. And i never even said your method was wrong, only question your exaggerated stats.
[/quote]

Nothing personal but Austin got different mechanics and that you dont understand obviously.
That you are a good player (dont care) dont mean much or how much you understand the modern swing or classic etc..I have no idea.
keep context in mind which here in this thread is the Austin swing, [b]not either modern nor classic.[/b]
if you try using modern theory or even classic reading into Austin mechanics, you simply dont understand this type of swing [b]or else you would shift and use it..[/b]
In simple terms, I discuss Austin here, and as long you dont use it nor understand it, there is no reason to take anything I said personally. (which you seem to have)
if you do, you simply do what people tend to do, react without understanding due to I talk about Austin here not anything else.

I talked to scratch players even better plus handicap below challenge tour or as such and they are as clueless as any.
So for me, how good you are playing golf, dont care due to their perceptions and theory dont match what they do anyhow.
I got this guy, telling me how his american teacher taught him to elicit what the best shot was of the day, after 3 days of that stuff I said, what is your careers best shot? he dead stopped and had no answer. 3 days later he had one where he hit his best shot of his career, reason? Me. He looked at me funny after that due to I made him better and he had no idea how.

Now, if you want to talk Austin mechanics I am all ear.
I dont do much posting and when I do I dont do bull.
I am blunt, direct and if your offended by that there is a ton of other threads to read and post in. I keep seperate that this is all Austin or squish mehcanics and [color=#ff0000][b]anything else not interested[/b][/color]. Just to clarify.

[JPGolf FL]

It's all good flopper. I was wrong to jab at you for exaggerating stats. I guess Its "par for the course" here. FYI, players who shoot below par have a minus handicap, not a plus handicap.

[Neil J Franklin]

We all need to get one thing straight - we are here to share knowledge and learn about the MA golf swing. Like Flopper, I don't care how good someone is, but I do care about getting better and that is why I am here on this forum. If we believe in the classic swing, we would not be here and as to the theories promoted here, then it is simple - try it, report back, ask questions, try it again and if it does not work, abandon it and move on!

This is a fantastic thread, that should be reviewed by anyone interested in golf and that applies to the #1 player on this earth because, what have they got to lose by trying? If you try and it doesn't work, then so be it...BUT we must be respectful to the people that are willing to share their knowledge for free - I have paid thousands of dolllars (and UK pounds as I am from the UK), for instruction and have got a lot less than I have received from this thread and for me, it is golden!

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='thesponge' timestamp='1352510118' post='5914333']
It's all good flopper. I was wrong to jab at you for exaggerating stats. I guess Its "par for the course" here. FYI, players who shoot below par have a minus handicap, not a plus handicap.
[/quote]

None taken.
stats do lie, if you believe its paints an accurate description of someones skills it just aint right.
It does however show tendency. That is how I use it.
What I said was he increased his speed with 10-15mph in a day he also did that with less energy to produce the distance, with spoon he hit it as far people hit with driver on that range who are scratch players. I also fully expect him to have a 130mph swing once he is done. then he can dial down and be even more accurate while still maintain good distance.

Neil, to get a golf pro who aims or is at a golf tour to radically alter their swing take some time to do due to they all encounter teachings of the industry.
It means they get worse before they get better and then they are at best hestistant to take any lessons.
They all want to get better but since they have little knowledge in how their timing works and why it works the way it does any trainer needs to adress that first and why it is the way it is and what to do learning the new one.
Example, one player been in the national team here now a pro couldnt putt, so he spent several hours practice it. once asked how it went he said, cant be worse.
(means for me, not got better)
Now, I was living with him and 3 other pro´s, he knew I did coaching but he didnt ask me anything about golf or how to improve.
They all do this thing as the other guys do, and believe it will work in spite of the result produced shows otherwise.
When that happens I expect them to start asking around to find a better way from anyone.
If they dont, it likely means they dont know thier own game enough or themselves to trust their own judgement if its a good thing for them or not.
I ask people all the time questions, especially if tis something I want to improve on, I also do follow instructions people give me and I then apply in practice but then I also measure the result of that practice and instruction.

I often find a huge disperancy between what people belive, hope and dream of and what they actually produce and they often more than not turn a blind eye to whatever the result they get as they hope for tomorow. You should be better from the first session. its true in any sport. I taken people to become better at putting by making them focus on the task better in fact so much they make anything on greens.
I dont have a huge fondness of technique, its a way to cover up flaws in instruction and teaching by providing a theory that sounds really cool. (get me bored fast)
The brain cant translate a instruction and do it as it either works or the player adapts and create his own interpretation of it.

[i][b]Either way, I am about to make some home grinded coffee now, get a visit from my sisters kid who is in gaming and computers much like me and enjoy the day.[/b][/i]
I hópe you do to.

[Neil J Franklin]

Flopper,

I know you are against technicalities, but I would like your opinion on the importance of a flat, bowed or cupped left wrist on the backswing. Which one do you favor (if any)?

[vision541]

[quote name='thesponge' timestamp='1352510118' post='5914333']
It's all good flopper. I was wrong to jab at you for exaggerating stats. I guess Its "par for the course" here. FYI, players who shoot below par have a minus handicap, not a plus handicap.
[/quote]

Tour players have a plus handicap dude.....and the last I heard they are "under par"

[vision541]

Flop

When you talk aboutthe pelvis moving down and out.....do you consciously push the pelvis down and out? I am trying to grasp the meaning of external attention but not really sure what you mean...

 

Huge rant...

 

distance to ball, doing that makes it external.

 

finding the angle downswing, will create full external reference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Flop

 

Had some unexpected snow a few days ago but hit balls anyway....only person at the range...for someone who has been so handicapped by classic swing details and perpetual thinking...today was remarkable for me....instead of thinking about moving my pelvis and/or suiting my QL, I only maintained my distance to ball and worked on my downswing angle...what happened was that I hit the ball with greater freedom and my impact was excellent...by keeing the distance, I realized that my C7 was stable, and I hit the ball in the right quadrant, always over my right leg or so it seemed...the eye-ball distance tightened my swing (if that makes sense)... But that was how it felt...my angle moved abit until I found it and then it was exact...

 

I like this better that focusing on MA's compound pivot, or even Dunaway's idea to compress right hip to 10:00....I am finding that my ball striking improves as i replace cognitive ideas with feeling.....have found that I improve or et back on track by finding the set impact...butmthat only happens After the swing and not before or during....strange for me...almost a** backwards from I have been taught via modern swing guys...

 

Appreciate your help

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and no, pelvis will move properly once those are done right.

Trying to consiously move pelvis is like a lot of posts I see on this and other subjects and other forums, people really have been brainwashed by golf theory.

Unless you can do it, there is no point in understanding specific angles due to its a too hard a task for the human body and brain to do.

 

if the C7 is stable, its all about the downward angle, once that is happening your pelvis will move properly, the evidence is in the previous video and until the short stop slide moves that right foot, your pelvis aint moving right. Your whole bodyweight should be going down into the right pelvis to then swing around meeting a front left side.

cant be done by technical analyzing or knowledge, I know people have some ideas and ideal but they cant play golf either due to they cant do it.

Its like communism, great idea but sucks in practice. Like you know the other way around free speech and such nice in theory but kinda sucks in practice when everyone voice an opinion.

 

Why are you trying to analyze something you cant do?

seems counterproductive to me.

Impact is what counts, to get there follow simple advice until your letting the body to do its natural path, forget swing theory, those guys have it wrong mostly anyhow.

Unless your one of those that likes what is familiar and then dont want to take a bath even if the water is nice and warm.

To get the perception you need to swing properly just forget all swing theory and practice some variation until you are able to distinguish, aha that is a good swing due to impact was really good. Feel cant be understood. it has to be felt by digging in the dirt until its there, you cant understand it.

I cant do everything I understand about the golf swing but I practice until it happens to be there once its there I take note aha this is how my body must move to make that happen and then I might analyze it. Until that happens, I basically apply variation until I am able to replicate the action and once I am able to do so, I check video to take note if I am on the proper track which impact is already showing me before video due to I want to check if what I percive the swing to be in my case matches the model I use. Took me 3 years to get there.

 

There are no answers out there about this, none of Mike Austins students swing like Mike himself did, none.

They sure do hit it long, but capturing what Mike did? no way.

I watch a Hogan video where Ben is telling you about the golf swing from legs and up, and tells things and then does a demo what he means and swings, and it dosnt match what he talked about. I go why are people so facinated by Hogan when he obviously didnt know what he did?

 

You need to build/find your own way of swinging, and you got enough information from me to do so.

If you wanna do take such an approach as I suggest its not for me to say due to I find swing technique talk boring.

Either you let yourself find how your body needs to be organized (move) to make a good golf swing by following the advice I given (external oriented) or be stuck forever in the technique camp.

I cant tell you exactly how trough a forum, as simply put words make bad replacement for personal instructions hands on.

 

so you ask a question that I cant really answer.

If you put enough body momentum into the downswing, your whole right side and body is weightless until just before impact and once that happens the pelvis has no other option than to move the way its been done by evolution you really want me to question the Darwin evolution path here? ;)

If the downward angle isnt proper you hook it off the planet due to rotating and will need compensating if that is happening you will either flip it or block yourself out.

 

In the video from Hans session the big change is his angle of shoulders and arms coming into impact. if you want to understand angle, its all there in his 2 last session swings vs day one. To actually be able to see it you cant do it from theory or golf swings people normally do as that will block it out.

any PGA pro out there when they find out I teach that my phone is gonna go warm.

 

/rant off :)

Left day one.

right day 2.

[JPGolf FL]

It's all good flopper. I was wrong to jab at you for exaggerating stats. I guess Its "par for the course" here. FYI, players who shoot below par have a minus handicap, not a plus handicap.

 

Tour players have a plus handicap dude.....and the last I heard they are "under par"

 

this is from the USGA website......."dude"

 

 

b. Minus Handicap Differential

When the adjusted gross score is lower than the USGA Course Rating, the Handicap Differential is a negative number. The following is an example for determining a Handicap Differential using an adjusted gross score of 69 made on a course with a USGA Course Rating of 71.5 and a Slope Rating of 125:

Adjusted Gross Score - USGA Course Rating: 69 - 71.5 = -2.5 Difference x Standard Slope Rating: -2.5 x 113 = -282.5 Result / Slope Rating: -282.5 / 125 = -2.26 Handicap Differential (rounded):

-2.3

 

 

a. Plus Handicap Differential

When the adjusted gross score is higher than the USGA Course Rating, the Handicap Differential is a positive number. The following is an example for determining a Handicap Differential using an adjusted gross score of 95 made on a course with a USGA Course Rating of 71.5 and a Slope Rating of 125:

 

Adjusted Gross Score - USGA Course Rating: 95 - 71.5 = 23.5 Difference x Standard Slope Rating: 23.5 x 113 = 2655.5 Result / Slope Rating: 2655.5 / 125 = 21.24 Handicap Differential (rounded): 21.2

 

 

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='Neil J Franklin' timestamp='1352548872' post='5915385']
Flopper,

I know you are against technicalities, but I would like your opinion on the importance of a flat, bowed or cupped left wrist on the backswing. Which one do you favor (if any)?
[/quote]

Relaxed wrists, the same grip pressure you use at "adress" should and shall be the same at the "turn" of the backswing and at "impact"
Let say a loose grip where you drop the club is 0 and when you kill the handle is 10 and you are firm and supple at adress is 3 then you should and shall use the same at the turn (3) and impact (3). Normally every golfer tighten this (5 or more) to make a hit at impact even players at tour level tends to do that.

Now if that makes you a cupped, flat, or bowed, who actually cares?
if you do the above and get to impact and kills the ball every time, your doing things right for you which in my book counts high.
Its due to once the gravity, speed and weight goes into impact, your normally will have a slight bow in the downswing due to relaxed wrists which allow you to slap/release properly due to no added tension in the grip happens. If tension happens, all bets are off.
Normally, for an amateure I adjust tempo and grip tension first.
I seldom if ever do a swing technique change.
if they are able to do tempo/griptension right, then I might add stuff, alter etc...

[quote name='vision541' timestamp='1352549379' post='5915409']
Tour players have a plus handicap dude.....and the last I heard they are "under par"
[/quote]

We call players who are good a "plus handicap" player. +index
even if it dont match what should be stated its how the general consensus is here at least.
potato or tomato.

[Neil J Franklin]

Thanks Flopper and I meant to ask if you promote any rotation of the forearms in the swing, or the Dan Shauger method of no rotation and then the 'puck' release. Last technical question for you!!!

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='Neil J Franklin' timestamp='1352566644' post='5916033']
Thanks Flopper and I meant to ask if you promote any rotation of the forearms in the swing, or the Dan Shauger method of no rotation and then the 'puck' release. Last technical question for you!!!
[/quote]

dont mind technical questions, my answer is likely to not be so technical.
if you riding the angle in the downswing in how the joints works, you will rotate the wrists and underarms naturally, not the elbows. (they rotate after impact)
the rotation of the wrists and underarm is a natural extension of riding the angle and happens once you get to the 6/100 slot position all that is needed is to relax the wrists and arms and it all square up naturally. Trying to create lag or holding it is futile. It happens due to a proper release, which just shows how many cant release properly. (still working myself on that)
I agree on Dan Shaugers point there.
IMO same as squish make.

Keeping that C7 centered allows you to create the riding the angle downswing as the ribcage/shoulder then supports the action (compression). (Austin [more] vs Hogan [less] for example previously posted) Do forward press, keep C7 stable and swing away as I previously posted the how to.