The Ultimate Slow Play Thread

DrSchteeve · December 13, 2006

It's funny over this side of the pond we don't have as much of a problem with slow play. I consider 4 hours to be slow. It's always the 'pesky Americans' that come over and slow the whole course up! (cool) As well, I think over here we don't have as much ego and will let players through and nearly always lay up (it's amazing the amount of times I've been told by my playing partners that I wouldn't reach the green- I proved them all wrong)

I've participated in a number of these threads over the years, and this does seem to be a predominantly American problem. As I understand it, expected pace of play at the Old Course is 3 1/2 hours. I suspect it's a combination of bigger American egos (hackers and even non-hackers just taking themselves too seriously) and more target golf courses. Play on the European Tour seems a bit faster than the U.S. Tour - seems to less of the marking of the 1 foot putts; of course, the $$$ (or euro's) involved are a bit less.

sheppy335 · December 14, 2006

I remember course not allowing me on till i was 10 and on weekends no one under 16 till noon.

Of course i remember playing early because only good golfers came out them, i didnt for awhile. then it switched and everyone came out early good and bad, to me i dont care i can play with anyone just keep a good pace.

Smooth spin scott · December 14, 2006

What if the PGA of America, instituted a player card program... online test or test with a PGA pro on etiquette, pace of play etc. Make it reasonable like $10 or something..... Courses could institute a policy where without passing the criteria (having the card), you cannot play during peak times. Just a thought, I am tired of the 5-6 hour rounds due to slow groups, useless rangers etc. I would be more than happy to take the time to get the card.

matjohns · December 14, 2006

At what point are you allowed to politely hit on the slow moving group? Is it ok after 15 minutes of waiting for your second shot and they still haven't cleared the green to roll one up? I'm not talking about bombing it on them, but you know a nice gentle roller that cuts across the green as they are marking their 3" inch putt. Is that ok or am I just a jerk?

puremoney · December 14, 2006

i wouldnt try it

puremoney · December 14, 2006

At what point are you allowed to politely hit on the slow moving group? Is it ok after 15 minutes of waiting for your second shot and they still haven't cleared the green to roll one up? I'm not talking about bombing it on them, but you know a nice gentle roller that cuts across the green as they are marking their 3" inch putt. Is that ok or am I just a jerk?

That would be bad IMO. I maintain my own standards of etiquette - I consider it so essential to what golf is that I could not imagine doing otherwise. Others may not do so - may neglect to replace divots or rake traps or fix ball marks on greens ... or hold up a dozen groups behind them with their pace of play - but people that do not understand what golf etiquette are not going to drag me down to their level. Ever.

word... (cool)

matjohns · December 14, 2006

It's interesting how golf can represent the extremes. On the one hand you have jerks whose sole purpose in life is to take other players mentally out of their game (which I think is the primary cause of slow play...just no one will admit it) and on the other hand you have nice guys who would never think of even so much as a gentle love tap to let the group in front know they're being way irresponsible with everyone's time and money.

Upon reflection I don't think hitting on them is going to help the situation one bit...but it does cross my mind every now and then that my practice swing adjusted about 2 inches further out might just make for a nice little wake up call a few yards in front of the green. java script:emoticon(':drinks:', 'smid_16')

(cool)

DrSchteeve · December 14, 2006

It's interesting how golf can represent the extremes. On the one hand you have jerks whose sole purpose in life is to take other players mentally out of their game (which I think is the primary cause of slow play...just no one will admit it) and on the other hand you have nice guys who would never think of even so much as a gentle love tap to let the group in front know they're being way irresponsible with everyone's time and money.

Upon reflection I don't think hitting on them is going to help the situation one bit...but it does cross my mind every now and then that my practice swing adjusted about 2 inches further out might just make for a nice little wake up call a few yards in front of the green. java script:emoticon(':drinks:', 'smid_16')
(cool)

Back on point, I don't think jerks whose sole purpose is to take other players mentally out of their game is the primary cause of slow play. That's a conspiracy theroy that gives way too much credit to the majority of golfers who just don't understand that one goal of golf is a 4 hour round. Most golfers aren't Seve Ballesteros - cunningly plotting how distract their opponents. I play with lots of golfers who are very slow with no competition involved.

The few times I've been involved in hitting into someone, the apologies were all on the hitting side and no impact on speed of play resulted. I would call the clubhouse and ask for a ranger before I hit into the group ahead. If there was no ranger, I might hit away with a hint... Alternatively, even though I've never done it, you could drive up to the group and discuss whether they are slow or whether someone else is holding them up...

RNF · December 16, 2006

What if the PGA of America, instituted a player card program... online test or test with a PGA pro on etiquette, pace of play etc. Make it reasonable like $10 or something..... Courses could institute a policy where without passing the criteria (having the card), you cannot play during peak times. Just a thought, I am tired of the 5-6 hour rounds due to slow groups, useless rangers etc. I would be more than happy to take the time to get the card.

Well not all facilities are run by a PGA member.

Golf has a bad rap with it being viewed as an elitest game anyways. That is one problem, especially for the Muni/public course. At Muni's the city council establishes the facility objectives and it's management's job to meet them. The last thing a Muni course can do is to be exclusionary. Meaning as a patron that wants to play in a reasonable time (no more than 4 1/2hrs).......your screwed (usually).

The main problem is the view of the management of the facility and what their objectives are.

As I said in post #21- Public/Muni courses differ from Resort/Semi-Private/Private in how many 4-some per hour are alotted on the tee-sheet.

Find a course that cares about pace of play and play there. Call their DoG or HP and ask about their pace of play policy. Some of you may have to drive a bit and you will have to be willing to pay (unfortunately) for the privilidge of playing in 4 to 4 1/2 hrs.

DrSchteeve · December 16, 2006

What if the PGA of America, instituted a player card program... online test or test with a PGA pro on etiquette, pace of play etc. Make it reasonable like $10 or something..... Courses could institute a policy where without passing the criteria (having the card), you cannot play during peak times. Just a thought, I am tired of the 5-6 hour rounds due to slow groups, useless rangers etc. I would be more than happy to take the time to get the card.

Well not all facilities are run by a PGA member.

Golf has a bad rap with it being viewed as an elitest game anyways. That is one problem, especially for the Muni/public course. At Muni's the city council establishes the facility objectives and it's management's job to meet them. The last thing a Muni course can do is to be exclusionary. Meaning as a patron that wants to play in a reasonable time (no more than 4 1/2hrs).......your screwed (usually).

The main problem is the view of the management of the facility and what their objectives are.

As I said in post #21- Public/Muni courses differ from Resort/Semi-Private/Private in how many 4-some per hour are alotted on the tee-sheet.

Find a course that cares about pace of play and play there. Call their DoG or HP and ask about their pace of play policy. Some of you may have to drive a bit and you will have to be willing to pay (unfortunately) for the privilidge of playing in 4 to 4 1/2 hrs.

All valid and well taken points. Still, the question about the difference between the US and other countries remains, since it seems that in other countries both "muni's" and resort courses can get people around in less than 4 hours.

Do we have more duffers, less golfers?

Are our target-style courses to blame (though most US muni's aren't target)?

Or what? Why can courses "over there" get people around in LESS than 4 hours and we can't get people around in less than 4 1/2?

Artemicion · December 16, 2006

Part of it might be a difference in mentality. I play on my own a lot, and when I was in New Zealand I never had any problems with slow play. When I caught up with a group they'd just let me through, no problem. It's different playing in the Netherlands, more often than not I've gotten stuck behind a group of four hackers who 'waited' for 6 or more holes to let me play through, and sometimes not at all. And then I'd run into the next group. For some reason they seemed to think it's their 'right' to do what they want since they've paid for it. Or something.

No offense to any Dutch people, but New Zealanders seem so much more easy going when compared to them. 'Not letting through' seems to be a bigger problem there than it is in the US, but generally courses aren't as busy, so if I was lucky I would have enough time to hit multiple balls without causing any unnecessary hold-ups behind me.

matjohns · December 17, 2006

I would agree with RNF's assessment that starting times could make the difference. However, I also would note that on busy weekends, there seems to be a difference between your stated tee time and your actual start time. For example - If you've got guys that are chomping at the bit to tee off, I've seen them get the green light and the rest of the day, they are pounding on the heels of the group in front of them. Other times I see foursomes show up a bit late, then they want to go on right now, etc. etc.

Bottom line is on a busy day, I usually can't see the cause for the slowdown...but I can see that there's no where to go even if I was let through. Where it gets frustrating is when the group behind you gets an attitude -- even though they know there's no where to go either.

If I were to change things, I'd say if the foursome collectively is an average of 20+ handicap and they want to play during peak hours then they should be required to play with a forecaddie. Aside from keeping the game moving, forecaddies often keep the atmosphere light and fun and usually they can even show the players new things that can improve the game.

DrSchteeve · December 17, 2006

My hope for the game is something realistic: can we actually speed up the play of all players, on average, so that the average round of golf takes 4 hours (or less), rather than 4 1/2 to 5? Even if we can't accomplish that, if we improve the speed of the average round from 4 3/4 to 4 1/2, we've accomplished something. The only way I see that happening is if paced play becomes a buzz, something that is talked about, acknowledged, discussed, prioritized. Here's what we have so far:

Paced play assumptions…

1) Paced play is finishing an 18 hole round in less than 4 hours

2) Paced play is a courtesy to other golfers and to the game itself

3) Paced play takes priority over optimum scoring except Tournaments (and should still be

enforced even in Tournaments)

4) All non-Tournament golf is casual golf (even if it's for blood or money)

5) Paced bad (or good) golf is better than slow bad (or good) golf

Golfers should…

1) Play ready golf

2) Stay up with the group ahead of you

3) Take no more than 2 practice swings

4) Take club options to your ball so you don’t have to return to your cart

5) Putt out all putts less than 3 feet (don’t mark the ball)

6) Pick up at double or triple bogey

7) Limit looking for lost balls (5 minutes is Tournament only; max 2 minutes for casual play)

8) Be ready to hit as soon as you reach the teebox

9) Put clubs in your bag and mark scores when others aren't waiting

10) Hit away when the group ahead is out of range (no, you can’t hit the green from 240)

11) Play teeboxes appropriate to handicap whenever possible

White (forward men’s): 16+

Blue (back men’s): 8-16

Championship: 8 and under

12) Let faster players play through

13) Call for course rangers if play is slow

14) Turn time is 5 minutes

Golf courses should

1) Advise all players of requirements for paced play

2) Give all players a courtesy card/otherwise post paced play advisory

3) Have a clear and consistent policy regarding slow play

4) Have rangers enforce slow play policies

Teetogreen86 · December 17, 2006

Here's my take on the whole situation...

I work at a course that used to be semi-private, and has now been fully private since June. The course does still have a deal with Tee Times USA that allows outside groups to book tee times occasionally Tues-Thursday after 10am. I'm the outside staff supervisor so I'm there 5-6 days a week with a radio so I hear and see everything...

I agree 100% with the posts saying join a private course. Pace of play isn't really an issue anymore, with the exception of the Tee Times USA people who come play. It's quite amazing actually. It seems 90% of those groups that come through need to be talked to by the ranger. And a good portion of those 90% are told to skip a hole if they are holding anyone up. Our pro will also try to block off a few tee times right behind these groups in an attempt to create a buffer.

Now it's not JUST the Tee Times USA groups that are slow. We have the few groups of members that are ALWAYS slow. And it's for all the reasons stated above. Massive ego's, lining up 2 footers for triple, yada yada yada.

Saturday mornings are booked solid from 7:06-11:30 or 12 usually. And everyone always plays in around 4 hours up until the usual problem groups that start around 10:30, then it's time for the ranger to go to work.

About a month ago these two members had two guests out. They hit 8 balls off the first tee so I gave the head pro a heads up to keep an eye on them. By the third hole they were a hole and a half behind the group in front of them which was right on pace. They have no clue at all on how to play golf at a decent pace.

golfsll · December 17, 2006

RULE#1 should be play with RORY SABBATINI

spro · December 17, 2006

Someone may have already touched on this -- tee time intervals. At the private course that I manage, we moved to 10 minute intervals and we hold each group until their tee time. You'd be suprised how many grous are ready to go as soon as the fairway clears, but we hold them to the tee time, and it works great. We have very few slow play problems, and we can even manage a few of our members who shoot above 110.

I understand that this kind of management is generally not practiced at public and semi-public facilities because of the fear of lost revenue. But you have to understand that the 4 or 5 tee times you give up expanding your intervals is made up for in customer (golfer's) satisfaction, and that in the end will lead to more revenue, more rounds, and better experiences for everyone.

Steve_FLA · December 17, 2006

I hear a lot of people saying on this thread that public courses don't want to turn anyone away and book as many tee-times as they can to make $$$. I am sure that is true and thats why they lost me. I joined a private club to get away from 5 hour rounds. As a married man with children I cannot play golf every Saturday/Sunday morning if I was going to be gone for 5 hours. At my private club 3 hours is the average time it takes us to play when we get out early in the morning.

Their are a lot of good ideas on this board to speed up play. Unfortunately too many golfers are clueless and inconsiderate of others. That means the golf course needs to police themselves and most public courses do a poor job at it. For several reasons mentioned they don't want to spend the time and manpower to do it right. I agree with some posters...if a public course could gaurantee you a 4 round on a weekend morning they would get my business.

-Steve

matjohns · December 19, 2006

another idea I've seen implemented is to publish recommended times per hole showing the incremental time and the cumulative elapsed time followed by "if you fall more than 10 minutes behind the stated times you are required to move to the next hole if possible." On the course where I saw this, it was hanging down from roof of the golf cart so it was unmistakably visible.