I've taken more from Golf than I've given back, and I intend to change that...

[chrisgilly09]

Yep, its cutthroat out there. And even though I dont play for a living, I feel that there are people who frequent the forums that do, so giving info out for the rest of the world to see could be a detriment to their livelihood. Which goes to your point above.

...And then there are people who know the info, and share it with people they feel deserving. Cant really fault them either way, free country/world...

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1347975736' post='5656835']
I'm sure some of you have seen the video where Hogan says something to the effect of "I've taken more from Golf than I've given back, and I intend to change that"

One thing that strikes me about these Golf forums, and why I usually stay away is the negativity and the "I know something you don't know" attitudes that prevail most of the time. There's even some people on here that will go asking everyone questions to help their own game, but then refuse to help others or proclaim their so called "secrets," as theirs to keep.

I've never seen anything like this in any other sport. It makes you think that sometimes people's motivation to get better is to place themselves on a pedestal rather than to get better. All this to say I want to state an opinion on the topic: Hogan NEVER denied anyone any secrets, all he did was dispel the myth that you can give someone a piece of information and that it will immediately translate into a good golf swing. This is why he only dealt with people that were serious about the game. Sure he may have kept his mechanics a secret during his playing days, but that's completely understandable given how competitive he was...
[/quote]

I completely disagree.

Everything to know is in WRX. You just have to have the right gut feel to pick out who to believe, and then read through many pages of posts.

What do you do for a living? I am quite sure you won't give out you're most precious knowledge and experience to the whole world/internet for free. Note also the hardship that Hogan endured to get that winning swing.

And even if you are told the Hogan secret, you may end up getting worse than ever...some say its a curse...lol

[ajc57]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348062273' post='5662775']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1347975736' post='5656835']
I'm sure some of you have seen the video where Hogan says something to the effect of "I've taken more from Golf than I've given back, and I intend to change that"

One thing that strikes me about these Golf forums, and why I usually stay away is the negativity and the "I know something you don't know" attitudes that prevail most of the time. There's even some people on here that will go asking everyone questions to help their own game, but then refuse to help others or proclaim their so called "secrets," as theirs to keep.

I've never seen anything like this in any other sport. It makes you think that sometimes people's motivation to get better is to place themselves on a pedestal rather than to get better. All this to say I want to state an opinion on the topic: Hogan NEVER denied anyone any secrets, all he did was dispel the myth that you can give someone a piece of information and that it will immediately translate into a good golf swing. This is why he only dealt with people that were serious about the game. Sure he may have kept his mechanics a secret during his playing days, but that's completely understandable given how competitive he was...
[/quote]

I completely disagree.

Everything to know is in WRX. You just have to have the right gut feel to pick out who to believe, and then read through many pages of posts.

What do you do for a living? I am quite sure you won't give out you're most precious knowledge and experience to the whole world/internet for free. Note also the hardship that Hogan endured to get that winning swing.

And even if you are told the Hogan secret, you may end up getting worse than ever...some say its a curse...lol
[/quote]

So ironic that you bring that up, but mostly sad. I am an application programmer, and programmers have tons of communities just like this one where they are more than happy to share their "secrets" and you "give out you're most precious knowledge and experience to the whole world/internet for free" because it benefits the industry - it's called open source. They do this to encourage participation, with absolutely no desire to benefit from it.

A secret is really just a piece of information - I think the fact that some of you react, again, so negatively to the suggestion that knowledge should be shared for the love of the game speaks volumes about my point. It's quite sad. This Hogan forum in particular is an ugly place - pissing contests and a lot of bragging is all I've seen thus far. I really just came here to try and contribute but with the attitudes you display it really isn't any fun at all - it's just a game, after all.


* and if you think Hogan endured any hardship while he learned to play the game then you have missed the whole point - he enjoyed every minute of it. He struggled to WIN because he was playing for glory. Some people here seem to play for their ego, and that's sad way to play the game.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348063987' post='5662909']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348062273' post='5662775']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1347975736' post='5656835']
I'm sure some of you have seen the video where Hogan says something to the effect of "I've taken more from Golf than I've given back, and I intend to change that"

One thing that strikes me about these Golf forums, and why I usually stay away is the negativity and the "I know something you don't know" attitudes that prevail most of the time. There's even some people on here that will go asking everyone questions to help their own game, but then refuse to help others or proclaim their so called "secrets," as theirs to keep.

I've never seen anything like this in any other sport. It makes you think that sometimes people's motivation to get better is to place themselves on a pedestal rather than to get better. All this to say I want to state an opinion on the topic: Hogan NEVER denied anyone any secrets, all he did was dispel the myth that you can give someone a piece of information and that it will immediately translate into a good golf swing. This is why he only dealt with people that were serious about the game. Sure he may have kept his mechanics a secret during his playing days, but that's completely understandable given how competitive he was...
[/quote]

I completely disagree.

Everything to know is in WRX. You just have to have the right gut feel to pick out who to believe, and then read through many pages of posts.

What do you do for a living? I am quite sure you won't give out you're most precious knowledge and experience to the whole world/internet for free. Note also the hardship that Hogan endured to get that winning swing.

And even if you are told the Hogan secret, you may end up getting worse than ever...some say its a curse...lol
[/quote]

So ironic that you bring that up, but mostly sad. I am an application programmer, and programmers have tons of communities just like this one where they are more than happy to share their "secrets" and you "give out you're most precious knowledge and experience to the whole world/internet for free" because it benefits the industry - it's called open source. They do this to encourage participation, with absolutely no desire to benefit from it.

A secret is really just a piece of information - I think the fact that some of you react, again, so negatively to the suggestion that knowledge should be shared for the love of the game speaks volumes about my point. It's quite sad. This Hogan forum in particular is an ugly place - pissing contests and a lot of bragging is all I've seen thus far. I really just came here to try and contribute but with the attitudes you display it really isn't any fun at all - it's just a game, after all.


* and if you think Hogan endured any hardship while he learned to play the game then you have missed the whole point - he enjoyed every minute of it. He struggled to WIN because he was playing for glory. Some people here seem to play for their ego, and that's sad way to play the game.
[/quote]

No, didn't post that with a bad attitude or bad tone at all. (darn, written words are hard where you can't see the facial expressions...) I get your point on the open source thing, and I commend you on that. Excellent stuff. But I'm sure you earn a living for it. Even the people at Firefox has salaries. It's just their job to contribute to open sources. We've got to feed ourselves and our kids, right?

Don't be bitter, you'll learn a lot by just wading through all the posts and banter from 2007 onwards...I guess all I'm saying is nobody learned anything in a silver platter. And that as is the case in all economies of the world, it is ok to get paid for what you know.

Fwiw, you may think I have a bad attitude, but of all the people in here who learned it the HAAAAARRRD WAAAY, I'm am among those who contributes and shares my thoughts, my true thoughts (not that I'm saying I know it all, just saying I share what I think...)...it's just that I don't care if it goes against anybody's opinion...heck its my opinion...somebody even said I post as if what I write is fact...lol...nobody knows the facts in golf...everything is opinion...so from then on, I always put the words IMHO...lol...just MHO of course...now don't get bad attitude on me ok?...lol

[ajc57]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348065714' post='5663077']

No, didn't post that with a bad attitude or bad tone at all. (darn, written words are hard where you can't see the facial expressions...) I get your point on the open source thing, and I commend you on that. Excellent stuff. But I'm sure you earn a living for it. Even the people at Firefox has salaries. It's just their job to contribute to open sources. We've got to feed ourselves and our kids, right?

Don't be bitter, you'll learn a lot by just wading through all the posts and banter from 2007 onwards...I guess all I'm saying is nobody learned anything in a silver platter. And that as is the case in all economies of the world, it is ok to get paid for what you know.

Fwiw, you may think I have a bad attitude, but of all the people in here who learned it the HAAAAARRRD WAAAY, I'm am among those who contributes and shares my thoughts, my true thoughts (not that I'm saying I know it all, just saying I share what I think...)...it's just that I don't care if it goes against anybody's opinion...heck its my opinion...somebody even said I post as if what I write is fact...lol...nobody knows the facts in golf...everything is opinion...so from then on, I always put the words IMHO...lol...just MHO of course...now don't get bad attitude on me ok?...lol
[/quote]

I have no reason to be bitter, believe me, any "secrets" mentioned here are not secrets at all, Hogan's specially. It seems people are taking this post as a complaint or a demand for secrets, and it's far from that. Hogan got all his secrets from other golfers, as did I - except I'm happy to share mine on whatever forum I can because it can only help my own game to explain to someone else. All this silver platter talk is just self-aggrandizing - but that's just my opinion ; )

[drewspin]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348066793' post='5663195']

any "secrets" mentioned here are not secrets at all,

[/quote]

How would you know, unless you assumed the conclusion (no secrets) as fact? Fact is that you don't know whether or not there are such secrets... but the only sure thing is that they are blabbed about publicly, then they won't be secrets.

Open source is wonderful, BUT if someone wants to proceed in their own model by retaining their own knowledge and use that knowledge as way to make a living (pay to learn), shouldn't [u][b]THEY [/b][/u]get to decide that's the way they choose to operate?

Seems like self-aggrandizement of the highest order to decide for someone else didn't have that right. Some people have chosen NOT to tell all to everyone, so be it.

[ajc57]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348069592' post='5663429']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348066793' post='5663195']
any "secrets" mentioned here are not secrets at all,

[/quote]

How would you know, unless you assumed the conclusion (no secrets) as fact? Fact is that you don't know whether or not there are such secrets... but the only sure thing is that they are blabbed about publicly, then they won't be secrets.

Open source is wonderful, BUT if someone wants to proceed in their own model by retaining their own knowledge and use that knowledge as way to make a living (pay to learn), shouldn't [u][b]THEY [/b][/u]get to decide that's the way they choose to operate?

Seems like self-aggrandizement of the highest order to decide for someone else didn't have that right. Some people have chosen NOT to tell all to everyone, so be it.
[/quote]

No self-aggrandizement here, I didn't say I was mandating you to act otherwise so do you - if the shoe fits....wear it, and it appears you're happy to, so that's all that matters. But ask any open source programmer how they feel about such companies and you'll get a pretty good sense of what I think of golfers like you.

[ajc57]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348069592' post='5663429']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348066793' post='5663195']
any "secrets" mentioned here are not secrets at all,

[/quote]

How would you know, unless you assumed the conclusion (no secrets) as fact? Fact is that you don't know whether or not there are such secrets... but the only sure thing is that they are blabbed about publicly, then they won't be secrets.

Open source is wonderful, BUT if someone wants to proceed in their own model by retaining their own knowledge and use that knowledge as way to make a living (pay to learn), shouldn't [u][b]THEY [/b][/u]get to decide that's the way they choose to operate?

Seems like self-aggrandizement of the highest order to decide for someone else didn't have that right. Some people have chosen NOT to tell all to everyone, so be it.
[/quote]

and just out of curiosity, just what exactly is it that you know that is so special my dude? lol - I'd bet my life on you not knowing anything that a single digit handicapper doesn't already know.

[dairic]

In some ways I see it as a detriment for an instructor to hold back information on one of these forums. Reason being that sharing good and practical information gives them credibility and that's good for business. For example, was slicefixer a stickler with information when he participated in these forums or was he generous? Is bHughes a stickler with information or is he generous?

No matter how much information you put out there, people are still going to struggle with golf, so I don't understand the argument it's bad for business. It's quite the opposite actually because these people will enlist the help of an instructor that they see as credible to integrate this information into there swing.

[ajc57]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1348070819' post='5663557']

[b]No matter how much information you put out there, people are still going to struggle with golf[/b], so I don't understand the argument it's bad for business. It's quite the opposite actually because these people will enlist the help of an instructor that they see as credible to integrate this information into there swing.
[/quote]

Man, you came just at the right time. Not only do I think that you hit it precisely on the button, I think it opens up my assertion that the whole idea of withholding this supposed "secret" info, specially on a forum - has more to do with the individual than it does about any real secrets. Any true student of the game will tell you that you can't teach someone a swing...you can only teach them how to LEARN A SWING on their own...and that is a fine way to make a living, one that doesn't alienate the golfer or make it popularity contest. Thanks Daric. Really, thank you.

[dairic]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348071164' post='5663583']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1348070819' post='5663557']

[b]No matter how much information you put out there, people are still going to struggle with golf[/b], so I don't understand the argument it's bad for business. It's quite the opposite actually because these people will enlist the help of an instructor that they see as credible to integrate this information into there swing.
[/quote]

Man, you came just at the right time. Not only do I think that you hit it precisely on the button, I think it opens up my assertion that the whole idea of withholding this supposed "secret" info, specially on a forum - has more to do with the individual than it does about any real secrets. Any true student of the game will tell you that you can't teach someone a swing...you can only teach them how to LEARN A SWING on their own...and that is a fine way to make a living, one that doesn't alienate the golfer or make it popularity contest. Thanks Daric. Really, thank you.
[/quote]

No problem dude. I mean this whole notion of holding back information in a way completely undermines that concept of participating in an online forum. I mean why are we here except to share information right? Isn't that the whole point lol !!

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1348070819' post='5663557']
In some ways I see it as a detriment for an instructor to hold back information on one of these forums. Reason being that sharing good and practical information gives them credibility and that's good for business. For example, was slicefixer a stickler with information when he participated in these forums or was he generous? Is bHughes a stickler with information or is he generous?

No matter how much information you put out there, people are still going to struggle with golf, so I don't understand the argument it's bad for business. It's quite the opposite actually because these people will enlist the help of an instructor that they see as credible to integrate this information into there swing.
[/quote]

There are pitfalls to this kind of generosity.

One is often with other instructors who take that information and claim it as their own without attribution. Golf instruction is rife with this kind of behaviour.

The other problem is when enthusiastic students think they fully understand the information and then start giving out advice that may or may not be applicable for the person seeking online help. This can damage the instructors reputation as those getting second hand information are much more likely to fail and claim that the original instructors ideas don't work.

[dairic]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348072159' post='5663689']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1348070819' post='5663557']
In some ways I see it as a detriment for an instructor to hold back information on one of these forums. Reason being that sharing good and practical information gives them credibility and that's good for business. For example, was slicefixer a stickler with information when he participated in these forums or was he generous? Is bHughes a stickler with information or is he generous?

No matter how much information you put out there, people are still going to struggle with golf, so I don't understand the argument it's bad for business. It's quite the opposite actually because these people will enlist the help of an instructor that they see as credible to integrate this information into there swing.
[/quote]

There are pitfalls to this kind of generosity.

One is often with other instructors who take that information and claim it as their own without attribution. Golf instruction is rife with this kind of behaviour.

The other problem is when enthusiastic students think they fully understand the information and then start giving out advice that may or may not be applicable for the person seeking online help. This can damage the instructors reputation as those getting second hand information are much more likely to fail and claim that the original instructors ideas don't work.
[/quote]

That's true and a good point. One of the tradeoffs of living in the information age. But I still think that the benefits to the instructor outweighs the risks.

A place like Golfwrx is not really a controlled environment, so it should be expected that you'll find all kinds of opinions and perspectives here right and wrong. Still somehow, some instructors do really well here. Safe to say that it's benefited guys like Monte or Geoff?

Alternately an instructor can start their own forum where they can moderate the information and ensure that is doesn't get misrepresented. Take ABS for example, J Erickson does a great job at hosting a forum there that's very rich in content.

I view it as an opportunity for golf instruction for sure.

[drewspin]

Just as one example, Bradley Hughes has a whole series of drills... its a package that you can sign up for, and begin at any time. It is excellent, and he gives personal feedback. He has private fora online for his students who have enrolled in his drill series to discuss their results and to share information about the drills.

Does he tell everyone in advance what his drills are? No. Does he ask his students to respect the value of his program to him as an instrutor? Yes.

Does that make him a bad guy for not committing economic suicide by choosing to open source his product? Definitely not.

He's trying to earn a living. Respect it.

[ajc57]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348076363' post='5664017']
Just as one example, Bradley Hughes has a whole series of drills... its a package that you can sign up for, and begin at any time. It is excellent, and he gives personal feedback. He has private fora online for his students who have enrolled in his drill series to discuss their results and to share information about the drills.

Does he tell everyone in advance what his drills are? No. Does he ask his students to respect the value of his program to him as an instrutor? Yes.

Does that make him a bad guy for not committing economic suicide by choosing to open source his product? Definitely not.

He's trying to earn a living. Respect it.
[/quote]
So how do you explain sevam1/secretinthedirt? dude kept it real from the start and now he's caking off what you label as economic suicide. Your making straw arguments anyway, that someone charges $$ to teach you something does not mean they own the material/drills or that it's even a secret, it just means they found someone that values their judgement -that's all. Trying to take ownership of the golf swing is ludicrous.

[ajc57]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348072159' post='5663689']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1348070819' post='5663557']
In some ways I see it as a detriment for an instructor to hold back information on one of these forums. Reason being that sharing good and practical information gives them credibility and that's good for business. For example, was slicefixer a stickler with information when he participated in these forums or was he generous? Is bHughes a stickler with information or is he generous?

No matter how much information you put out there, people are still going to struggle with golf, so I don't understand the argument it's bad for business. It's quite the opposite actually because these people will enlist the help of an instructor that they see as credible to integrate this information into there swing.
[/quote]

There are pitfalls to this kind of generosity.

One is often with other instructors who take that information and claim it as their own without attribution. Golf instruction is rife with this kind of behaviour.

The other problem is when enthusiastic students think they fully understand the information and then start giving out advice that may or may not be applicable for the person seeking online help. This can damage the instructors reputation as those getting second hand information are much more likely to fail and claim that the original instructors ideas don't work.
[/quote]

The amount of detail and sophistication in the golf swing means that no golf program can ever be truly perfect. Due diligence is required no matter how the knowledge is acquired. The real debate between “proprietary” theories and open discussion lies not with the method of delivery, but with the concepts themselves. The debate should be focused on the merits of the instruction, not what was paid for it and to whom.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348076922' post='5664047']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348076363' post='5664017']
Just as one example, Bradley Hughes has a whole series of drills... its a package that you can sign up for, and begin at any time. It is excellent, and he gives personal feedback. He has private fora online for his students who have enrolled in his drill series to discuss their results and to share information about the drills.

Does he tell everyone in advance what his drills are? No. Does he ask his students to respect the value of his program to him as an instrutor? Yes.

Does that make him a bad guy for not committing economic suicide by choosing to open source his product? Definitely not.

He's trying to earn a living. Respect it.
[/quote]
So how do you explain sevam1/secretinthedirt? dude kept it real from the start and now he's caking off what you label as economic suicide. Your making straw arguments anyway, that someone charges $$ to teach you something does not mean they own the material/drills or that it's even a secret, it just means they found someone that values their judgement -that's all. Trying to take ownership of the golf swing is ludicrous.
[/quote]

Sevam1 went from being an unheard of nobody in golf (good am. who claimed to have not even played in several years) to putting out a youtube video that was cleary intended to be self-promoting (the description, was written in the 3rd person even though he posted it under his own account), claimed a "secret," got aligned with Elk, who introduced him to Burke Jr. who helped promote his ideas, published an e-book which were sold for profit and started a whole website and forum designed to promote and sell more of those e-books including now "the most powerful move in golf" and Geoff Mangum's stuff.

I say hurray for Sevam1 and his brilliant self-promotion and marketing campaign which has convinced many (obviously you included) into believing what a philanthropic guy he is! It's pure genius and my hat's off to him (sincerely)! Very likeable guy. He succeeded in creating a business out of nothing. The power of the profit motive on full display and capitalism at it's finest.

Here's his original video. Look at the description:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4ZkkR8tDc&feature=plcp"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4ZkkR8tDc&feature=plcp[/url]

[drewspin]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348076922' post='5664047']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348076363' post='5664017']
Just as one example, Bradley Hughes has a whole series of drills... its a package that you can sign up for, and begin at any time. It is excellent, and he gives personal feedback. He has private fora online for his students who have enrolled in his drill series to discuss their results and to share information about the drills.

Does he tell everyone in advance what his drills are? No. Does he ask his students to respect the value of his program to him as an instrutor? Yes.

Does that make him a bad guy for not committing economic suicide by choosing to open source his product? Definitely not.

He's trying to earn a living. Respect it.
[/quote]
So how do you explain sevam1/secretinthedirt? dude kept it real from the start and now he's caking off what you label as economic suicide. Your making straw arguments anyway, that someone charges $$ to teach you something does not mean they own the material/drills or that it's even a secret, it just means they found someone that values their judgement -that's all. Trying to take ownership of the golf swing is ludicrous.
[/quote]

Mike has a SITD e-book product that he sells. Others have put together products (videos) that they sell. The SITD forum is FREE.

You think he's caking? Whatever that means, it's highly doubtful. It's a labor of love (not a career investment) for him.

I'm not making straw arguments, I explained exactly what Brad is doing, and yes, HIS expectation which is very clearly stated, is that his students will respect the fact that HE put the materials (instructional videos and drills together) and made an investment in it, and not to publicize those.

Whether I would make the same decision or not (since I am not a pro), is not the issue. The issue is that I am a student, and that is [i][u]his[/u][/i] decision as the teacher. See the difference? Probably not.

Anyway, someone who puts energy and time and intellectual capital into developing a system or method of instruction or a series of drills or an approach to a swing pattern, and who wants that instruction kept private with the student, that's a far cry from your hyperbole that it is an effort to "take ownership of the golf swing"

BTW - no need to personalize things with me... I'm not selling anything here, just sharing freely what I think... which you are equally free to ignore if my sensibilities are other than yours.

[ajc57]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348079486' post='5664239']

Sevam1 went from being an unheard of nobody in golf (good am. who claimed to have not even played in several years) to putting out a youtube video that was cleary intended to be self-promoting (the description, was written in the 3rd person even though he posted it under his own account), claimed a "secret," got aligned with Elk, who introduced him to Burke Jr. who helped promote his ideas, published an e-book which were sold for profit and started a whole website and forum designed to promote and sell more of those e-books including now "the most powerful move in golf" and Geoff Mangum's stuff.

I say hurray for Sevam1 and his brilliant self-promotion and marketing campaign which has convinced many (obviously you included) into believing what a philanthropic guy he is! It's pure genius and my hat's off to him (sincerely)! Very likeable guy. He succeeded in creating a business out of nothing. The power of the profit motive on full display and capitalism at it's finest.

Here's his original video. Look at the description:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4ZkkR8tDc&feature=plcp[/media]
[/quote]

I see what you're saying but my original post was about safe keeping these so called secrets from the 50's - they are all well known now. That you can make money off the knowledge/analysis is not in itself a bad thing, people pay these guys for their product but there's no holy grail, or secret - at least in the sense that they only tell you once you fork over the money.

At no point is he trying to own the concepts/secrets themselves, nor is he fooling anyone and certainly not me. Though I was already privy to the concepts they preach, I never once paid a cent to listen to what he had to say. That he's making money off other people that are willing to give him $$ is immaterial as far as I'm concerned. His youtube has his honest opinions about Hogan, Norman etc and he charges nothing. Same with Elk, etc

[hoganfan924]

His free youtube videos are clearly "teasers." Nothing wrong with that. Just good marketing. I admire the guy for what he's been able to create.

[ajc57]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348080040' post='5664275']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348076922' post='5664047']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348076363' post='5664017']
Just as one example, Bradley Hughes has a whole series of drills... its a package that you can sign up for, and begin at any time. It is excellent, and he gives personal feedback. He has private fora online for his students who have enrolled in his drill series to discuss their results and to share information about the drills.

Does he tell everyone in advance what his drills are? No. Does he ask his students to respect the value of his program to him as an instrutor? Yes.

Does that make him a bad guy for not committing economic suicide by choosing to open source his product? Definitely not.

He's trying to earn a living. Respect it.
[/quote]
So how do you explain sevam1/secretinthedirt? dude kept it real from the start and now he's caking off what you label as economic suicide. Your making straw arguments anyway, that someone charges $$ to teach you something does not mean they own the material/drills or that it's even a secret, it just means they found someone that values their judgement -that's all. Trying to take ownership of the golf swing is ludicrous.
[/quote]

Mike has a SITD e-book product that he sells. Others have put together products (videos) that they sell. The SITD forum is FREE.

You think he's caking? Whatever that means, it's highly doubtful. It's a labor of love (not a career investment) for him.

I'm not making straw arguments, I explained exactly what Brad is doing, and yes, HIS expectation which is very clearly stated, is that his students will respect the fact that HE put the materials (instructional videos and drills together) and made an investment in it, and not to publicize those.

Whether I would make the same decision or not (since I am not a pro), is not the issue. The issue is that I am a student, and that is [i][u]his[/u][/i] decision as the teacher. See the difference? Probably not.

Anyway, someone who puts energy and time and intellectual capital into developing a system or method of instruction or a series of drills or an approach to a swing pattern, and who wants that instruction kept private with the student, that's a far cry from your hyperbole that it is an effort to "take ownership of the golf swing"

BTW - no need to personalize things with me... I'm not selling anything here, just sharing freely what I think... which you are equally free to ignore if my sensibilities are other than yours.
[/quote]

dead horse...i'll move on.

as far as him making money, you gotta be kidding - Elk, the most powerful move guy, and mike are clearly making money. They have everyone's attention and it has led to downloadable content, clinics etc.


* btw, remind me to charge you as much as I possible if I ever spot anything in your swing lol - once you realize that I was only trying to help, not win an argument, maybe you'll change your mind. Can't believe you're a student and I have to convince you to take advice for free!

[drewspin]

"once you realize that I was only trying to help, not win an argument, maybe you'll change your mind."

Perhaps you should charge for your comedy...

Ever hear the one about the indignant know-it-all who rails against know-it-alls -- it's hilarious! LOL

[ajc57]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348081065' post='5664335']
"once you realize that I was only trying to help, not win an argument, maybe you'll change your mind."

Perhaps you should charge for your comedy...

Ever hear the one about the indignant know-it-all who rails against know-it-alls -- it's hilarious! LOL
[/quote]

we'll see...

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348080040' post='5664275']
[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1348076922' post='5664047']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348076363' post='5664017']
Just as one example, Bradley Hughes has a whole series of drills... its a package that you can sign up for, and begin at any time. It is excellent, and he gives personal feedback. He has private fora online for his students who have enrolled in his drill series to discuss their results and to share information about the drills.

Does he tell everyone in advance what his drills are? No. Does he ask his students to respect the value of his program to him as an instrutor? Yes.

Does that make him a bad guy for not committing economic suicide by choosing to open source his product? Definitely not.

He's trying to earn a living. Respect it.
[/quote]
So how do you explain sevam1/secretinthedirt? dude kept it real from the start and now he's caking off what you label as economic suicide. Your making straw arguments anyway, that someone charges $$ to teach you something does not mean they own the material/drills or that it's even a secret, it just means they found someone that values their judgement -that's all. Trying to take ownership of the golf swing is ludicrous.
[/quote]

Mike has a SITD e-book product that he sells. Others have put together products (videos) that they sell. The SITD forum is FREE.

You think he's caking? Whatever that means, it's highly doubtful. It's a labor of love (not a career investment) for him.

I'm not making straw arguments, I explained exactly what Brad is doing, and yes, HIS expectation which is very clearly stated, is that his students will respect the fact that HE put the materials (instructional videos and drills together) and made an investment in it, and not to publicize those.

Whether I would make the same decision or not (since I am not a pro), is not the issue. The issue is that I am a student, and that is [i][u]his[/u][/i] decision as the teacher. See the difference? Probably not.

Anyway, someone who puts energy and time and intellectual capital into developing a system or method of instruction or a series of drills or an approach to a swing pattern, and who wants that instruction kept private with the student, that's a far cry from your hyperbole that it is an effort to "take ownership of the golf swing"

BTW - no need to personalize things with me... I'm not selling anything here, just sharing freely what I think... which you are equally free to ignore if my sensibilities are other than yours.
[/quote]

Pretty good summary of my position as well. Since ajc57 is relatively new here, he may not know whom each of us takes lessons from or who's teachings we believe in. As a student of Geoff Jones (Slicefixer) I've made it clear that I will not reveal anything that he himself didn't write about here on this forum. I try not to interject too much on threads about his teaching unless someone is way off track or misrepresents something. Geoff spent half of his life trying to figure it out and I'm not going to go blabbing it all over the internet. It's called respect.

Some people don't believe that there is any such thing as "intellectual property." For example, they don't believe that patents and copywrites should even exist. I know some of these folks and I get where they are coming from. I just have a different opinion.

[ajc57]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348081239' post='5664347']

Pretty good summary of my position as well. Since ajc57 is relatively new here, he may not know whom each of us takes lessons from or who's teachings we believe in. As a student of Geoff Jones (Slicefixer) I've made it clear that I will not reveal anything that he himself didn't write about here on this forum. I try not to interject too much on threads about his teaching unless someone is way off track or misrepresents something. Geoff spent half of his life trying to figure it out and I'm not going to go blabbing it all over the internet. It's called respect.

Some people don't believe that there is any such thing as "intellectual property." For example, they don't believe that patents and copywrites should even exist. I know some of these folks and I get where they are coming from. I just have a different opinion.
[/quote]

That's cool, I can respect that line of reasoning...just don't agree but I will say that if you go into an agreement with someone your word should mean more than my opinion on the topic - which is clearly the case.

[bhughesgolf]

As far as my situation and Drew can vouch for this I am sure.
NOTHING that I show a student has not been said before by me in forums, youtubes or on website... It is ALL there
However
Each person is different. They think different. Analyze different. Feel things differently. Comprehend differently. Execute differently. So whatever they read and watch can be an entirely different experience to having a 'proper lesson'
Like Drew said he probably didnt know where some of my drill stuff was leading but when he got there he then understood. I dont want a student to worry about every minute detail as too much info is overkill. Best to do and learn and then understand it yourself for what it brings.
The only thing I ask my students is to not show the drill videos. They are my work and took years of thinking and working out a way I thought was the best way for someone to learn and build and not lose sight of the end goal.

There is no major secret as we all have different hand strengths torso turns leg strength eyesight strength and dominance... It is a combo of everything that makes a good swing solid and then you have to learn to aim based on your swing, know the rules, play under pressure, make good decisions, select the right club for distance, play in wind rain and different terrain, with some players you like and some you want to punch
Too many things going on to say My Secret should be your secret.... You build , you strip back and you build more and evolve...
You make your own secrets

[JBOMB808]

The 'internets' is funny like that. You go on it to share ideas, but in the end there's always someone out there to strip you of your very own idea.

Here's a post from Greg Lavern, pupil of Moe Norman...

"[color=#000000][size=3]I would like to make the public aware that when you go to The Real Moe Norman.com which was the name of the book i authored and you will get Todd Graves and Natural Golf. This man applied to a judge to claim the domain name on our website to direct people to promoting his phony impression of Moe Norman. There is no doubt Todd Graves is true a phony as far as the way Moe Norman actually swung the golf club and certainly in his own swing does not even resemble Moe Norman's swing in any way. Todd Graves does not have the knowledge or the ability to swing the way Moe Norman swung the golf club that i took the liberty to view. His leg action is wrong and releases the club far to soon for starters. Moe and myself are way more similar and i have a video comparison of Moe Norman from 61 with myself that will soon be released online that will back up the true authority on Moe Norman's golf swing. Todd Graves can hide behind Moe Norman's name he paper trailed for rights to. This is not entirely true as i can use Moe's name anytime i want since he taught me for many years and was my personal friend. I was Moe's long time student and the intellectual property provided me along with the way he developed my swing i own and under the laws of freedom of speech and expression i can reveal the knowledge to anyone, anywhere i choose from my personal experiences with Moe Norman.[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]The Real Moe Norman Book is shelved and so is the stupid writer that was suppose to put trade mark on the Real Moe Norman name which allowed Todd Graves to apply and use the domain name The Real Moe Norman. NOW JUST THINK FOR HIM TO RESORT TO SUCH LOW TACTICS IS OPENLY ADMITTING THAT THE REAL MOE NORMAN the way he taught GREG LAVERN is the true way Moe Norman swung the golf club and all his crap of Graves Academy and Natural GOLF was fooling the public. Just punch in www.RealMoeNorman he needs to attract the public.(Beware) it is not Greg Lavern the true authority on Moe Norman's golf swing from the era he taught me and the way i swing the golf club as videos on You tube have proven time and time again. A patron of mine just told me the only thing that matters is the knowledge in your head as no one else really knows on the planet and you are who Moe gave his real knowledge to.[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]From this corruption I will take maybe six months or longer if needed to come out with a brand new book , new name, copyright, and trademark. It will consist of important knowledge from my original writings and brand new information i have not reveled to the public that will contain information Todd Graves was not exposed to and would not figure it out in the next fifty years.[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]As mentioned before Todd Graves and his tag along brother teach a method taken from observations and videos taken of Moe Norman and certainly not from the horses mouth. Unfortunately the Graves bothers observations including Natural Golf were very wrong and nothing more further from the truth. It was clear when Graves wanted to buy the photos of Moe Norman from the early sixties from my partner Lawson Mitchell as Graves was scared the truth would reveal he does not have a clue what he has been talking about for years.[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]I not only have already started to write a superior book even greater than The Real Moe Norman that received many comments particularly on information that Todd Graves or Natural Golf never ever mentioned to the public and if knew would have been mentioned. How could they know Moe told Nothing to them of importance what he actually did. I knew i was dealing with a phony when he promoted the right side and still does not know what Moe Norman did with his left side to create the proper sequence of motion.[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]Well i might say this. The coward will soon be hiding when i come out with the knowledge i have that will include new pictures of Moe Norman from the sixties. I am sure even a phony like Todd Graves would know you can't buy talent or world class knowledge especially from the straightest hitter of the golf ball in the world. It was a gift passed on unfortunately he was not included. It is clear Graves and Natural Golf are scared of me. They should be because now i am pissed off at all his lies and deception instead of welcoming the knowledge I was provided by Moe Norman. For now you can view GREG LAVERN's videos. When the book comes out Natural Golf his brother who never had the guts to inform me of their actions can hide in the closest where he belongs as his fooling the public is over in the near future.[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Thank you[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]Greg Lavern[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3]Greg Lavern[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Read more:[url="http://www.gothamgolfforum.com/index.cgi?board=moe&action=display&thread=90&page=2#ixzz26xJ8O14p"]http://www.gothamgol...2#ixzz26xJ8O14p[/url]"[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]Ain't that a Bee?[/size][/color]

[ALIF]

Nice post BH.

[ajc57]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1348088521' post='5664899']

[b]You make your own secrets[/b]
[/quote]
absolutely. Thanks for the response.

[ajc57]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1348092107' post='5665139']
The 'internets' is funny like that. You go on it to share ideas, but in the end there's always someone out there to strip you of your very own idea.
[/quote]

There's a book called "Steal Like an Artist" - we are so far removed from originality at this juncture in our civilization that it's hard to take ownership of any idea. Even the best teachers use material from those that came before them, it's human nature. Ben Hogan fashioned a swing by studying the greats in his father in law's movie theater - it doesn't take away from the feat, but it does give you some insight into how this whole building a swing thing works.