What's the skinny on S400 and X100's?

Hey guys. I played today with my friends who do my club work for me. To make a long story short I'm going to be purchasing new irons here soon, and was asking them about which shafts I should get. I have the green Tour Concept X100's in my current irons, but they don't make those shafts anymore. My 6 iron swing speed is 102 MPH so I need something of the stiffer variety. They suggested I get S400's instead of X100's. I have a few questions.

1) They told me that I am going to hit the ball lower (which is preferred) with the S400's vs the X100's. True?

2) Also they are heavier, so for those who have switched notice anything significant?

3) Is the S400's equal to X100's in shaft stiffness?

Any other relevant information is much appreciated. Thank you!

S400 is softer than X100. S400 is a slightly heavier version of the S300. With your awing speed, X100 might bo too stiff.

[quote name='Vegaman' timestamp='1304307080' post='3201063']
S400 is softer than X100. S400 is a slightly heavier version of the S300. With your awing speed, X100 might bo too stiff.
[/quote]

He said his 6 iron swing speed is 102, not driver swing speed. He needs at least X100s.

Try to find Dynamic Gold Tour X7 shafts - they should be perfect for you.

102 MPH for a six iron seems to warrant X100. I wouldn't even look at S400 if that speed is accurate.

[quote name='mckennwa' timestamp='1304307325' post='3201073']
102 MPH for a six iron seems to warrant X100. I wouldn't even look at S400 if that speed is accurate.
[/quote]

Exactly. Other options would be True Temper Black Gold in X or Project X 7.0.

[sup]What caught my attention was I'm supposed to hit the S400's lower. I'd like the lower ball flight, but wanted to make sure that they would be stiff enough.[/sup]

[quote name='mckennwa' timestamp='1304307325' post='3201073']
102 MPH for a six iron seems to warrant X100. I wouldn't even look at S400 if that speed is accurate.
[/quote]

Much more to the fitting process than just speed although you won't find too many guys swinging 100 mph with a 6 iron that would be fit into stiff. JB Holmes uses S400 in his irons and he swings at it pretty hard.

OP, just curious...what is your miss on bad swings? On good swings what is your preferred shot shape?

I have heard some people say that Tiger tips his X100's just a 1/4 in or so given that they are taper tip. This might be something you could look into if you want to lower ballflight. I don't know if it is possible though to be completely honest.

I agree, a fitting is always best, but if all I have is swing speed to answer based upon, its X100s all the way.

Dizz- My misses are more or less a hard draw. My preferred shot shape with the irons are a 3-5 yard draw all the way up the set. To be honest right now I'm hitting the ball pretty straight right now.

The only real reason I posed this question was in hopes the S400's would play similar, but give the the lower ball flight I wanted. If they didn't give me that info today I'd be set on iehter X100's or flighted 6.5's.

[quote name='ErikTaylor' timestamp='1304306864' post='3201050']
Hey guys. I played today with my friends who do my club work for me. To make a long story short I'm going to be purchasing new irons here soon, and was asking them about which shafts I should get. I have the green Tour Concept X100's in my current irons, but they don't make those shafts anymore. My 6 iron swing speed is 102 MPH so I need something of the stiffer variety. They suggested I get S400's instead of X100's. I have a few questions.

1) They told me that I am going to hit the ball lower (which is preferred) with the S400's vs the X100's. True?

2) Also they are heavier, so for those who have switched notice anything significant?

3) Is the S400's equal to X100's in shaft stiffness?

Any other relevant information is much appreciated. Thank you!
[/quote]

Tour Concept shafts in X-flex can still be bought as Chrome or Satin, but no green color
TCiX1 is the order code for X-100 in satin, but you will only find them at PFC centers.
http://www.performancefittingcenter.com/pfc/index.php?j=locator

I guess you know that this shafts are Flighted ?, and that the long irons got higher flight than DG, and the shorter shaft goes a bit lower than DG.
http://www.performancefittingcenter.com/pfc/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49

- Like others saids, you are in the x-flex range somewhere, and there is no way you can handle a S400 with that club speed. (if you do you are smooth as....)
- S400 will have a apex of 1-2 feets lower than S300, but but higher than X-100 with a few feets.

So the lower flight is only marginal then?

Go for PX 7.0 Flighted, or go see a PFC center and have them to make you a set of Rifle (Non PX), with the flight pattern you want.
- That can be done from Rifle Blanks 6.5 - 7.0 or 7.5. depending on flight pattern you want. (cost less than PX)
- Instead of making a Flighted set with high launch in the long irons, you can choose a low ball flight in all irons if thats what you want.

Here is the general recommendations from True Temper. Flighted is suggested as 0.5 stronger flex than strait in.
[attachment=776608:PX flex compare.PNG]

In a few ours, I will be in my workshop, and i can measure a few shafts to give you some numbers.
- I can give you some CPM numbers for S400 / S300 / S300 SL / X100. / Rifle & PX 6.5 and 7.0 both as strait in and flighted. ( i got it all in stock, but no TC, i get them next week.)
Ive should have made that chart anyway, so today is a good day:-)

- What club length and Swing weight are you playing?
- Rifle / PX and TT don't respond the same with over length, so if you play + 0.5 or longer i should know to give you the right comparable numbers.

Howard... thanks a ton! As far as my length it's standard, and to be honest I'm not quite sure with my swing weight. I don't pay attention as much as I should when I'm having my clubs worked on. However I did hear D4 a lot when my clubs were getting put together a few years ago. So probably that's it. I do know for a fact nothing extra was added to the clubs or whatever... just a stock 695 CB with a Tour Concept X100. I wish I could be of more help, but that's all I have.

anyone know where you can try a x7 shaft out?

http://www.performancefittingcenter.com/pfc/index.php?j=locator

[quote name='Dizz' timestamp='1304307632' post='3201084']
[quote name='mckennwa' timestamp='1304307325' post='3201073']
102 MPH for a six iron seems to warrant X100. I wouldn't even look at S400 if that speed is accurate.
[/quote]

Much more to the fitting process than just speed although you won't find too many guys swinging 100 mph with a 6 iron that would be fit into stiff. JB Holmes uses S400 in his irons and he swings at it pretty hard.

OP, just curious...what is your miss on bad swings? On good swings what is your preferred shot shape?
[/quote]

I myself might question the 102mph swing speed with a 6 iron....but this is a golf chat....LOL

??? That was the average over 50 shots in the machine at Edwin watts.

Hey Howard any luck with those numbers?

I'm very sorry for my late reply. I did not manage it all but some....,
- I'm in the middle of relocation, so i did not find my 2.5" clamp for PX shafts, and those cant be measured with a 5" clamp

TT Shafts at a playing length of 37.50 (std) to butt cap (minus 1/8 on shaft) dry fit with a #6 Club head of 265.0 grams gave this butt cpm nr.

S300 Taper tip = 322 Cpm
S400 Tour Issue = 325 Cpm
X100 Tour Issue = 331 Cpm

So its the regular 9 Cpm from S to X flex, and S400 equals to X100 Soft stepped 2x or S300 Hard stepped once. (S300 +3 Cpm)
(Its almost 1 cpm + pr gram difference between S300 and S400)

PX 6.5 gave 338 with a 5 inch clamp, but that number is not useful for this compare

The consistency of the shafts going longer is the same: (5-6 Cpm difference)
With the same head, but at different playing length (swing weight gained or dropped without correction)

Length X-100 - S400

40 305 - 300
39 315 - 310
38 325 - 320
37.50 331 - 325
37.00 337 - 328

Hey Howard thanks for all the info, but could you do me a favor and put that in lehman's terms?

LOL...I think its easier to explain the system, than to "translate" it but.....

Over all flex is measured as butt frequency, even if it only tells the stiffness of the butt end of the shaft, and the 3 other zones might vary a-lot, but it does not count here.
- The shaft is "dry fitted" to a club head #6 on a #6 shaft, with standard playing length, or with a fixed tip weight with 205 grams. (different values, but the differences in cpm between 2 shafts will be the same)

Cpm or cycles pr minute, is the numbers we got in return from this test, and the more nr of Cpm's, the stronger is the flex.
- We expect there to be a difference of 9 cpm from R flex, up to S flex, and another 9 cpm from S flex up to X flex. (9 cpm stronger in each flex class)
- Rifle shafts who uses their own flex system with numbers like 5.5-6.0-6.5, has only 5 Cpm from 6.0 to 6.5, and another 5 from 6.5 to 7.0 - This system is based on math an logic, the other system L.A.R.S.X is based on "feel".
Thats why there is no official flex charts who set this in a way for us players or club makers we can read and to compares with.

Comparing TT and Rifle shafts will always be a bit of apples and bananas, since both the measure method ( 2.5" long shaft clamp, or 5.0" long shaft clamp)
and the flex systems them self is night and day. Its not even the same flex when we compare S300 Taper tip with S300 Parallel tip.
- in the taper /parallel case, butt cpm will be lower in the Taper tips, but the other 3 parts of the shafts is stiffer on taper than Parallel, so the Taper tip is actually a bit stronger in play, while butt cpm tells it the other way around.

The Brunswick FCM system is the first system for flex where they uses math to calculate the "Flex number", and for short it goes like this:

- A Club at 43" with a swing weight of D3, who gives a butt Cpm of 250 is RIFLE flex 5.0.
- The same club with 255 cpm will be labeled as 5.5
- The same club with 260 cpm will be labeled as 6.0
Just use the last 2 digits, and put in a dot, and you have the value you will find printed. (6.0-6.5)

But when you read those list where True Temper DG shafts is compared with PX, its NOT the PX label flex but FCM flex who is always "+ 1 PX class "

A PX 6.0 is the same as FCM 6.5
A PX 6.5 is the same as FCM 7.0

I don't know how the TT shafts has been put into the FCM system, since the flex in this shafts are not based on math, but from a feel preference system without a numerical standard.
In the FCM system the difference is 1 cpm (6.0-6.1-6.2)
- The standard in the L.A.R.S.X system is, that a particular shaft is labeled in the flex class the factory "feels" it belongs to, so 2 shafts in X flex might be far apart in the real life when measured with a cpm reader.

The "official" list of comparable flex numbers between True Temper Dynamic Gold with Taper tip, and Rifle Project X with taper tip looks like this. (very short version)

FCM value - Shaft - Label say

5.8 - S300 - S flex
6.0 - PX - 5.5
6.1 - S400 - S flex
6.5 - PX - 6.0
6.8 - X-100 - X flex

So we can read from this small list that a X-100 shaft got 10 more Cpm at the butt than a S300 shaft, and the S400 shaft ends up 1/3 stronger than S300.

When we hard step or soft step, we move shafts to lighter or more heavy club heads, to manipulate flex.
- If you play 3-PW, and X-flex is much to stiff, and S flex was just a bit to soft, you can get a flex 1/3 stronger than S flex.

If you get a set f X-100 shafts 3-PW, you need shaft #1 & #2 extra to do it. (soft stepping 2X)

Put #1 shaft in the #3 iron head, and the #2 iron shaft in the #4 iron head all the way, and then cut of the "left over" who is 1 inch at the butt.
- Now you will have a set where the FCM value dropped by 6 cpm, so now they are playing to S + 1/3 of a flex class.
- What i found out about the S400 Ti shaft is, that this shafts is this S + 1/3 already, so it IS stronger than S300, but still 2/3 from X-100
The FCM number tells the difference in butt frequency / cpm's.

You starting question was about ball flight height, and if i can use the same expectations to changes pr cpm in a TT shaft as in a Rifle shaft, witch i believe is correct, you will see a difference in apex (maximum height in the flight), of 1 US feet pr cpm. That means the the S400 shafts should have a ball curve who is 6 feets HIGHER than X100, or 3 feets lower than S300

Did that make any sense ????

Do see the pinned topic where Dynamic Gold VS PX is (open by Joe Kwok)

Wow that is a wonderful explanation. I just went to school. So let me see if have learned something. I don't remember if I posted but I currently have Tour Concept Greens, which are a weight of 126 grams. My teacher says I hit that too high for his liking, and I tend to agree. However the DG X100's are 4 grams heavier, which should mean I should hit those lower, even though they are a stiffer shaft correct? Also could I tip the X100 to make it fly lower? I think another member suggested that.

A stiffer shaft goes lower than a softer shaft (all else equal), so if X-100 DG, are stronger than TC X-100 they will go lower, but TC is a flighted pattern, so this will only be right for the mid irons.
- Since the long irons in your TC set is High launch, your long irons will definitely come down with ordinary X-100 DG,s, but thats mostly because of different bend point.(its more against the tip in your TC long irons)
- Your short irons is the question I'm not able to answer, since your short irons got a higher bend point than a standard DG shaft.
- The intentions about them, is to make them go a bit lower than ordinary DG with the same flex label
I have absolutely zero experience with TC shafts, so in this case i'm on thin ice, but if ALL your irons flights to high, you might go both standard flight and stronger, by using DG Tour X7 who is a 132 gram shaft with FCM 7.5, or like PX 7.0 but like with Tour Concept shaft, you will have to see on of this dealers to get them (or sometimes from the net somewhere)
[url="http://www.performancefittingcenter.com/pfc/index.php?j=locator"]http://www.performan...x.php?j=locator[/url]

EDIT:

About tip trimming on Taper tips, i have no idea how much it changes the Cpm, but an ordinary parallel tip DG respond with 1 Cpm pr 1/8 inch.(thumb rule)
if this goes for tapers to, and the amount of trim possible before hosel problems is 3/8, then you get like 1/3 flex stronger at max trim (3/8)

One other option is DG X200's.

They are the same weight as S400's and might be a better fit based on your swing speed.

Does anyone know what a performance fitting center fitting costs? It seems as though the numbers on the link you provided are the places where they use to do the fitting. I can't seem to get a price and what all is included. I want to go to the TMP lab over here in Orlando, but it costs $400 and I am currently jobless so the irons are going to set me back far enough as is.

Howard so much great info. I have learned a ton from this thread. I wish you were local.

Great thread folks!

[b]Trimming Taper Tips[/b]

I had to try it, so i did, and yes the shaft responded as expected by 1 Cpm for each 1/8 i cut of the tip, 5 times in a row.
- After 0.5 inch, i don't think there will be room for epoxy,(to tight fit) , but 3/8 seem to be OK, so Tapers can be "hard stepped 1x", by tip trim of 3/8, since it gave 3 cpm +./equals to 1/3 of a flex class in the L.A.R.S.X system

Since this thread has a ton of info (thanks to you), is there a link that explains hard and soft stepped. Since my 2 year layoff I just recently heard about these two terms and don't know what them mean. I need to get more knowledgable about this stuff I guess. I've just always had someone do it for me. Interesting stuff.