First time playing PRAIRIE DUNES, pretty pure!

[FairwayFred]

let's not get into it but then bring it up?

 

local members carry two balls and hit provisionals all the time. pace here is no worse than any other private club. i walk 90% of the time and almost never take more than 4:15 no matter who i'm playing with.

 

i'd have to think about a local rule for lost balls, but i don't really think it's necessary. the people that should be playing that way, often already do. the people that might only hit one ball in the trash per round don't hesitate to hit a provo, take their double and move on.

 

i dunno, something about that just feels wrong to me. a little bit of "this is too hard, let's change the rules for everyone to help me out" type of thing.

 

Would you be ok with all the fairways surrounded by water instead of the gunch? Unfortunately that's how it plays now for he most part. I find the native at PD to be incredibly punishing compared to other places w similar native. If you could find your ball and advance it even a little I wouldn't feel that way but at PD it's basically a lost ball unless there was a recent burn. I feel like it's a weakness of the course personally though it's still one of my favorites. I wish they could find a way to manage it better. I'm sure they are trying.

[tnord]

i get how it plays, as it's my home course.

 

i'm also on the green committee, and yes, we are trying. go back to my first post in this thread where i talk about all the methods we've experimented with.

 

i couldn't tell you exactly why our native is so much thicker than what's at Sand Hills. i would think some of it goes back to time, and the soil. we have LOTS of sand, but the longer the course is here, the richer the soil gets from adding organic matter to it. we are about 60 years older than they are, that's a lot of mowing and grass clippings getting circulated back into the ground.

 

also, if you read the golf club atlas page on sand hills ( http://golfclubatlas...usa/sand-hills/ ) the soil on that particular site is particularly bad for cattle because it lacks the nutrients needed to grow enough native grass for cattle to eat. by comparison, if you look on the sides of the roads around here, there is PLENTY of tall native.

 

we are also farther south than they are, but use a cool season fairway grass - rye. i don't know why that particular grass was selected, or if it's even always been here. it may be Augusta influence, as Perry Maxwell worked with MacKenzie. the result is that the cool season fairway grass requires more water in the heat of the ever increasing summer temperatures, and extended drought period. we do what we can to keep any moisture out of the gunch, but some overspray from 20+mph winds is unavoidable. my personal opinion is that rye grass is not sustainable long term given current, and future climate. that's obviously a BIG undertaking.

 

some of the native issues are self inflicted for sure. the native seed mixes that were used in some areas 30+ years ago included some undesirable varieties that we're now dealing with. it's not that those grasses aren't native to the area - they are - they're just not good for golf. other plants that are native but not good for golf grew up over time as well - dogwood and sand plums in particular - that we've been methodically removing. i've been a member for 4 years now, but i've been coming here as a guest for 5 years before that, so i know what it was like back then and it is drastically improved.

 

for some of the woody areas, it is a MASSIVE amount of manual work for guys on foot with hand tools because of the severity of the terrain. we do what we can with heavy equipment, as one of our members - who is also a member at sand hills - gave us full use of a huge brush cutter. but to survive the summer hot and dry season, native plants have incredible root systems, and it takes years and years of beating it back, burning it, or just digging it out with shovels to deal with it.

 

i don't know how many thousands of words i've spent talking about grass, so it's obviously an issue on the front of the green committee's mind.

 

https://twitter.com/...469264985161730

https://twitter.com/...284793653428225

[FairwayFred]

i get how it plays, as it's my home course.

 

i'm also on the green committee, and yes, we are trying. go back to my first post in this thread where i talk about all the methods we've experimented with.

 

i couldn't tell you exactly why our native is so much thicker than what's at Sand Hills. i would think some of it goes back to time, and the soil. we have LOTS of sand, but the longer the course is here, the richer the soil gets from adding organic matter to it. we are about 60 years older than they are, that's a lot of mowing and grass clippings getting circulated back into the ground.

 

also, if you read the golf club atlas page on sand hills ( http://golfclubatlas...usa/sand-hills/ ) the soil on that particular site is particularly bad for cattle because it lacks the nutrients needed to grow enough native grass for cattle to eat. by comparison, if you look on the sides of the roads around here, there is PLENTY of tall native.

 

we are also farther south than they are, but use a cool season fairway grass - rye. i don't know why that particular grass was selected, or if it's even always been here. it may be Augusta influence, as Perry Maxwell worked with MacKenzie. the result is that the cool season fairway grass requires more water in the heat of the ever increasing summer temperatures, and extended drought period. we do what we can to keep any moisture out of the gunch, but some overspray from 20+mph winds is unavoidable. my personal opinion is that rye grass is not sustainable long term given current, and future climate. that's obviously a BIG undertaking.

 

some of the native issues are self inflicted for sure. the native seed mixes that were used in some areas 30+ years ago included some undesirable varieties that we're now dealing with. it's not that those grasses aren't native to the area - they are - they're just not good for golf. other plants that are native but not good for golf grew up over time as well - dogwood and sand plums in particular - that we've been methodically removing. i've been a member for 4 years now, but i've been coming here as a guest for 5 years before that, so i know what it was like back then and it is drastically improved.

 

for some of the woody areas, it is a MASSIVE amount of manual work for guys on foot with hand tools because of the severity of the terrain. we do what we can with heavy equipment, as one of our members - who is also a member at sand hills - gave us full use of a huge brush cutter. but to survive the summer hot and dry season, native plants have incredible root systems, and it takes years and years of beating it back, burning it, or just digging it out with shovels to deal with it.

 

i don't know how many thousands of words i've spent talking about grass, so it's obviously an issue on the front of the green committee's mind.

 

https://twitter.com/...469264985161730

https://twitter.com/...284793653428225

 

I am also a member this would be my 8th season. Not local but I have played the course more times than I can remember. I'm not specifically talking about Sand Hills though that's a good example. I've never seen native as bad as PD ever. Glad to hear it's at the forefront of your mind, that the club is working on it and hope to see it get better and better.

[tnord]

the two courses most often referenced with regards to ideal native are Ballyneal and Sand Hills. Both of those courses are in their infancy compared to PD, which i think contributes. they haven't had the time to accrue cultural practices that eventually lead to more growth. they also have the advantage of being built when we obviously knew much more about turf maintenance.

 

the other notable "prairie" courses that employ native areas are colbert hills and southwind/buffalo dunes. i haven't been to either, but from what i'm told by those that have, is that their native is actually much much worse than ours. just looking at the pics on their homepage show that to be the case as well.

 

http://tgcsouthwind.com/

 

i'm not saying we can't do better, we're obviously trying. but realistically, there's only so much fighting nature you can do. not directed at you or anyone in particular, but often times the individuals i've encountered that complain the loudest are the ones trying to bomb driver everywhere. that's not how you play this golf course.

 

while the gunch may be the biggest complaint - i've also heard guys coming from Oakmont, National, Shinne, all say that it's easily a top 10 course and if it was anywhere near a metro area it'd be $250k to get in and a 10yr waiting list.....so we're doing something right.

[FairwayFred]

the two courses most often referenced with regards to ideal native are Ballyneal and Sand Hills. Both of those courses are in their infancy compared to PD, which i think contributes. they haven't had the time to accrue cultural practices that eventually lead to more growth. they also have the advantage of being built when we obviously knew much more about turf maintenance.

 

the other notable "prairie" courses that employ native areas are colbert hills and southwind/buffalo dunes. i haven't been to either, but from what i'm told by those that have, is that their native is actually much much worse than ours. just looking at the pics on their homepage show that to be the case as well.

 

http://tgcsouthwind.com/

 

i'm not saying we can't do better, we're obviously trying. but realistically, there's only so much fighting nature you can do. not directed at you or anyone in particular, but often times the individuals i've encountered that complain the loudest are the ones trying to bomb driver everywhere. that's not how you play this golf course.

 

while the gunch may be the biggest complaint - i've also heard guys coming from Oakmont, National, Shinne, all say that it's easily a top 10 course and if it was anywhere near a metro area it'd be $250k to get in and a 10yr waiting list.....so we're doing something right.

 

I'm not your bomb driver guy I don't hit it much past 250-260 and I rarely miss a fairway when I'm playing well. My guests on the other hand have really struggled. Nobody likes going on a golf trip and losing boxes of balls.

 

I've never played those Colbert Hills or Southwind but there are MANY courses with Native areas like this. I'd just like to see it as not a lost ball I think that would greatly improve the experience of playing the course. 8 fwy is a great example. It's not hard to hit a ball into the right side of the fwy on 8 w some wind blowing left to right and get a big right kick and a lost ball which imo is just way too penal.

 

You don't have to sell me on the course. I love it.

[TTURaider]

The conversation about the work that goes into thinning out the native areas is really interesting to me. I honestly never thought about it much and figured the courses wanted it to play that way. Courses here in West Texas sometimes allow the rough to grow up to make the courses play tougher for tournaments and such but the terrain is mostly flat and can easily be mowed back down. We also don't get much rain so we don't often have situations where it gets out of control. It's interesting to hear about the effort that goes into maintaining and improving top level courses to make them even better.

 

That said, I really enjoy getting to see courses in other parts of the country and enjoy playing conditions that are different than what I'm used to at home. I've been making a trip to the Kansas City area the past few years to visit some friends and have really enjoyed all of the courses we have played there. In fact, some of the nicest courses I've ever played have been on these trips.

We played Colbert Hills and Sand Creek Station the past two years and though the conditions were tough, the scenery was amazing and the greens were so pure it was a blast!

From the pics posted of Prairie Dunes, it looks absolutely amazing. I would love to experience playing it if I ever got the chance.

[nix]

let's not get into it but then bring it up?

 

local members carry two balls and hit provisionals all the time. pace here is no worse than any other private club. i walk 90% of the time and almost never take more than 4:15 no matter who i'm playing with.

 

i'd have to think about a local rule for lost balls, but i don't really think it's necessary. the people that should be playing that way, often already do. the people that might only hit one ball in the trash per round don't hesitate to hit a provo, take their double and move on.

 

i dunno, something about that just feels wrong to me. a little bit of "this is too hard, let's change the rules for everyone to help me out" type of thing.

 

My statements were not about PD specifically, but natural grass areas generally. I just find it interesting that by rule it;s more penal than water.

 

I like natural grass areas and am fine with them being hard to find balls or hit out ot. I just don't completely understand why those areas should require a provisional whereas water doesn't.