Mike and Dana's hip turn video lesson

[pb056]

Jeffmann,

 

OK I get were your comming from. Find the best way to swing it. I answer it as simple as I can then. Find a swing that has little or no shift at all in it. Find a swing that is very good at hitting long irons and your on your way.

 

Dana - I have found a good prototype that fits your criteria of a swing that is simple and has little shift, and that is good for hitting long and short irons - and it's Badds swiing (old and new). That's why I use him as a role model in my website review.

 

Jeff.

 

Am I the only one getting a chuckle out the the irony of this post?

 

Jeffmann,

 

 

Baddeley is the poster boy for stack and tilt, which is a variation of the MORAD swing that Dana & Mike teach, and also advocates a steep hip and shoulder turn.

 

Hello....McFly!!

 

 

hmmm....noted, just shot a hole in his own arguement.

[JeffMann]

Hoganfan924

 

You may have less to chuckle about after you read my review of Badds new swing (compared to his old swing), which shows that there is very little of B/P's S&T left-leaning philosophy in Badds new swing. He quintessentially still has a rightwards centered backswing.

 

Jeff.

[hoganfan924]

Hoganfan924

 

You may have less to chuckle about after you read my review of Badds new swing (compared to his old swing), which shows that there is very little of B/P's S&T left-leaning philosophy in Badds new swing. He quintessentially still has a rightwards centered backswing.

 

Jeff.

 

I completely agree with you Jeff (concerning weight distribution). But were talking about hip and shoulder turn steepness in this thread!

 

BTW, Mike or Dana can speak for themselves, but I don't believe that they teach transferring more weight on the left foot at the top of backswing.

Here's a pic from your own site reviewing Badd's old vs. new swing:

 

 

Hmm, his new swing looks just like what Mike and Dana are advocating and very similar to Palmer and Snead. Go figure. The hole you're digging for yourself is getting very deep Jeff.

[JeffMann]

If you think that Badds doesn't have a relatively horizontal shoulder and pelvic turn angle in his new backswing, and if you think that his shoulder/pelvic turn angle is steep like that Palmer example I previously supplied, then we simply see reality differently.

 

Here are a series of swing videos of Badds new swing.

 

Badds fairway wood swing

 

Badds Iron Swing

 

 

To make the differences immediately apparent, I have added this comparison photo of Palmer and Badds.

 

 

Note that Palmer has much more uptilt of his right pelvis and downtilt of his left pelvis, which causes his left knee to be more flexed.

 

Note that Palmer's shoulder turn angle is much steeper than Badds shoulder turn angle.

 

Here is yet another photo comparison - where I have drawn a green line along the spine, a yellow line at right angles to the spine, and a red line along the shoulder turn angle. It demonstrates that Badds has a slightly flatter shoulder trun angle than Palmer.

 

 

 

Jeff.

[darom55]

What we need to know from these three swings are what type of ball flight each one is trying to hit. Badds tends to hit medium draws therefore his shoulder plane and left arm angle would be flatter. If Palmer is trying to hit say a medium fade then that could account for the steeper shoulder and arm angle. You cant just compare swings without varifying that they are trying to hit the same type of shot.

[asitlies]

I've got to admit that I've skipped 4 pages of this discussion, but I just wanted to say that it seems very unathletic to straighten the rear leg in the backswing. I can't think of any sport where you would do such a thing.

 

BTW, it looks like Palmer is set up to hit a draw - look at the hole in front of him - it appears to be a dogleg left...

[darom55]

Baseball pitchers go from a straight leg at the top of there wind up before bending it to drive towards home plate. How do think they generate there power.

[asitlies]

They're not hitting anything - I apologize for being unclear. They generate a lot of their power from their leg drive and their shoulder turn. How about batters, or hockey players?

 

Actually, think about football quarterbacks - who aren't on a mound. They generate power from their legs - I would even argue that baseball pitchers are a bit different as they use gravity to help them along. Straightening the leg at the start of a pitch helps to create height, which helps increase their "fall" forward.

[darom55]

exactly. Generating power from their leg drive.

[slicefixer]

EVERY single good player I work with can strike a golf ball over 90% of their normal distance with any club with their feet together.......and they can "compress" all hell from it to.........and all of them have "quiet legs"........in a great golf swing "the legs" are "supporting" for the most part.........IMOP :clapping:

 

(btw, "pound for pound" they can MOVE it too!)

[pb056]

i fail to see how starightening the right leg is not a athletic??

[darom55]

EVERY single good player I work with can strike a golf ball over 90% of their normal distance with any club with their feet together.......and they can "compress" all hell from it to.........and all of them have "quiet legs"........in a great golf swing "the legs" are "supporting" for the most part.........IMOP :clapping:

 

(btw, "pound for pound" they can MOVE it too!)

 

 

What about their hips?

[asitlies]

i fail to see how starightening the right leg is not a athletic??

 

In my opinion, it seems that balance comes from making tiny adjustments to weight distribution. These adjustments are easier when you have your legs bent slightly. I have had golf teachers nudge me when my egs were straight, and I easily lost my balance. Once my legs were properly bent, and I was in an athletic position, the nudge did not make me lose my balance. Does that make any sense?

[Tyler Durden]

i fail to see how starightening the right leg is not a athletic??

 

In my opinion, it seems that balance comes from making tiny adjustments to weight distribution. These adjustments are easier when you have your legs bent slightly. I have had golf teachers nudge me when my egs were straight, and I easily lost my balance. Once my legs were properly bent, and I was in an athletic position, the nudge did not make me lose my balance. Does that make any sense?

 

So it would seem that you would have to be even more athletic in order to incorporate a straightening of your back leg since it requires more balance, or am I not reading your post correctly?

[iteachgolf]

i fail to see how starightening the right leg is not a athletic??

 

In my opinion, it seems that balance comes from making tiny adjustments to weight distribution. These adjustments are easier when you have your legs bent slightly. I have had golf teachers nudge me when my egs were straight, and I easily lost my balance. Once my legs were properly bent, and I was in an athletic position, the nudge did not make me lose my balance. Does that make any sense?

 

the rear leg straightens but doesnt lock, just has less flex than when started.

[asitlies]

LOL! No, you're not reading my post correctly. If the best (arguably) athlete in the world doesn't do it (straighten his leg in the backswing) why do much less skilled athletes feel the need to try it?

[Tyler Durden]

LOL! No, you're not reading my post correctly. If the best (arguably) athlete in the world doesn't do it (straighten his leg in the backswing) why do much less skilled athletes feel the need to try it?

 

I'm just presenting you with the theory that anything that requires more balance, intutively, should require more athletic ability. I guess you think it's the other way around.

[asitlies]

Why make it harder?

[pb056]

Arguably the best swinger of a golf club ever, Ben Hogan, straightened his right leg?? (not locked btw) maybe we shud copy him instead.

[asitlies]

Funny, I haven't really studied Hogan all that much, as I'm 6'5", and his swing doesn't fit my body-type at all.

 

I guess one of the things I am confused about is straight vs. locked. When standing up straight, my legs are straight. What's the difference between straight and locked? If there is a slight bend, it's not straight, right?

[pb056]

Funny, I haven't really studied Hogan all that much, as I'm 6'5", and his swing doesn't fit my body-type at all.

 

I guess one of the things I am confused about is straight vs. locked. When standing up straight, my legs are straight. What's the difference between straight and locked? If there is a slight bend, it's not straight, right?

 

well, when u address the ball there is a bend in the knee, if it straightens as a result of hip turn then the right knee will move backwards, this doesnt automatically mean that it has locked however. The right leg can straighten up a fraction in the backswing without it locking ala Hogan.

[asitlies]

So just less flex then. Looked at the video that started this post, and it looked pretty locked to me. I'd better go look again.

 

OK, gotta look more, but they refer to "bent right knee" and "straightened right knee", but the subject has a "locked" right knee in the example..

[slicefixer]

EVERY single good player I work with can strike a golf ball over 90% of their normal distance with any club with their feet together.......and they can "compress" all hell from it to.........and all of them have "quiet legs"........in a great golf swing "the legs" are "supporting" for the most part.........IMOP :clapping:

 

(btw, "pound for pound" they can MOVE it too!)

 

 

What about their hips?

 

I'd be curious to hear what you think the "hips" should do in a great golf swing? I've probably written a hundred posts on this site in regards to "the hips"........with a coupla' searches it's easy to figure out my opinion......... :crazy:

[hayam]

Hoganfan924

 

You may have less to chuckle about after you read my review of Badds new swing (compared to his old swing), which shows that there is very little of B/P's S&T left-leaning philosophy in Badds new swing. He quintessentially still has a rightwards centered backswing.

 

Jeff.

 

I completely agree with you Jeff (concerning weight distribution). But were talking about hip and shoulder turn steepness in this thread!

 

BTW, Mike or Dana can speak for themselves, but I don't believe that they teach transferring more weight on the left foot at the top of backswing.

Here's a pic from your own site reviewing Badd's old vs. new swing:

 

 

Hmm, his new swing looks just like what Mike and Dana are advocating and very similar to Palmer and Snead. Go figure. The hole you're digging for yourself is getting very deep Jeff.

 

The Weight distribution is more like a Result of the way the pivot stacks and the knees action right?

[dana dahlquist]

So the number one golfer in the world has less nee flex in the right nee at the top of the swing than when he started. That states it self.

 

I really have no idea what Palmer was hitting during that photo, however the picture in the right of Badds is very good.

Mr Hogan had a very close look....

[JeffMann]

Slicefixer

 

Brady Riggs seems to agree with you about quiet legs - see his online video lesson at

 

Jeff.

[slicefixer]

Slicefixer

 

Brady Riggs seems to agree with you about quiet legs - see his online video lesson at

 

Jeff.

 

Brady's a really good teacher......we've "visited" on the phone on a number of occasions......in fact, I sent him one of my students who moved to CA........

 

As far as "quiet legs".......you won't see GREAt ballstriker's feet jumpin' all over the place like a Gene Kelly tap dance..........this indicates their LEGS are in more of a "reactionary mode" rather than "driving tha' bus"....the CORE is in charge and NOt the legs themselves (Core movement tends to create ROtatION while the legs tend to create LAtERAL motion, which is NOt desireable IMOP....... :cheesy: the ONLY exceptions would be players like Furyk who, due to their backswing pivot and armswing, are FORCED to reroute the arms/club in order to get the CLUB into an acceptable position so it can release itself......"using physics instead of FIGHtING it".......

 

Btw Jeff........I might not always agree with your "MO," but, I almost always agree with your "message".....I also KNOW that you are 100% SINCERE when you "question"/"post, etc.".......I 100% agree with your concerns with S&t/MORAD and some of the "statements" made by both P&B and their "disciples" (they sure do seem to contradict themselves a lot)........

 

In MY experience most (NOt ALL, DD, Hayam, Manzella, Rob Noel, etc. are among the exceptions IMOP....as are a few others that hang out here) of these tgm/S&t/MORAD guy's (or pretty much any other "method" for that matter) can "talk" a good one to the "uneducated," but, push come to shove they really know lil' or nothing beyond some "terminology" (ie. "BS") and aren't very effective at teaching a broad cross section of golfers.....

 

I truly think all 3 are ALL HIIGHLY viable "methods" and MUCH can be learned from all 3 ....... it's just that it seems like a lot of their "believers" drink too much of their Kool-aid and are magically transformed into "Karnac's" of the golf swing (they know the answer to the question BEFORE you've even asked it).....:clapping: .......so don't let them rag on you too much........ :crazy:

 

ONE other thing........I had to chuckle a bit at all of the discussion/debate/arguments regarding the different top of the backswing pics posted for comparison..........Unless ALL of the pics were taken from the same angle relative to EACH individual player the pics are 100% WORtHLESS for comparison......I can video a player with either multiple cameras positioned at different "heights" and the same swing OR same camera and change the height of the camera between shots with the result being the APPEARANCE of wildly different backswing arm/shaft planes.........:cheesy:

[bantamben]

Yeah your right about tiger he doesnt straighten his right leg much he also has very little hip turn and is extremely flexible, most players need more hip turn to make a full turn Im sure you would agree. Here is a guy with alot of hip turn http://historicgolfphotos.com/Sam_Snead_sw...-0749-9718.html

And hand in hand with players that have alot of hip turn the loose flex in there right leg and gain it in there left. You sound like an intelligent teacher so I am sure you now that there is only two ways to turn our hips one is losses flex in our right leg and gaining it in your left how much depends on how much you want to turn your hips. The second way is to turn your knee caps to the right wich will turn your hips but very flat. Wich is the option that those that believe in keeping the same flex in your knees at adress throughout your swing would choose. If you dont believe me try holding your knee caps with your hands so they are pointing forward now try and turn your hips while keeping your knee caps pointing forward. Needless to say you wont be able to do it, Sergio is a good example of this as you will notice his knees realy point to the right at the top of his backswing ( his right). Most golfers though do a little of both some more straightening some more knee turn. The Idea I believe in and that I have found most effective is to allow your right knee to lose some flex and the left knee to gain some flex in order to get my hips turned 45 degrees, wich allows me to mae a full shoulder turn it also allows me room to get my right elbow back in front of my right hip onj the downswing. The benefit to this method is your knees and hips stay more under you and it is easier to stay more centered on the backswing. Here is a good representation of this in My buddy Mike Mcnarry scroll down to the swing clips and click on the top lin for face on. http://dahlquistgolf.informe.com/viewtopic.php?t=487 if that doesnt work ( You might have to register on the site to see the clips) you can try this link http://dahlquistgolf.informe.com/viewtopic.php?t=487

[Points]

All great players have a large amount of lateral motion in their swing. Foot movement is related to which club a player is hitting. A wedge will see a player with a much quieter lower body than a driver. With a driver I can think of lots of players whose left foot spins backwards, are on their toes at impact, etc.

[golfer.61]

Yeah your right about tiger he doesnt straighten his right leg much he also has very little hip turn and is extremely flexible, most players need more hip turn to make a full turn Im sure you would agree. Here is a guy with alot of hip turn http://historicgolfphotos.com/Sam_Snead_sw...-0749-9718.html

And hand in hand with players that have alot of hip turn the loose flex in there right leg and gain it in there left. You sound like an intelligent teacher so I am sure you now that there is only two ways to turn our hips one is losses flex in our right leg and gaining it in your left how much depends on how much you want to turn your hips. The second way is to turn your knee caps to the right wich will turn your hips but very flat. Wich is the option that those that believe in keeping the same flex in your knees at adress throughout your swing would choose. If you dont believe me try holding your knee caps with your hands so they are pointing forward now try and turn your hips while keeping your knee caps pointing forward. Needless to say you wont be able to do it, Sergio is a good example of this as you will notice his knees realy point to the right at the top of his backswing ( his right). Most golfers though do a little of both some more straightening some more knee turn. The Idea I believe in and that I have found most effective is to allow your right knee to lose some flex and the left knee to gain some flex in order to get my hips turned 45 degrees, wich allows me to mae a full shoulder turn it also allows me room to get my right elbow back in front of my right hip onj the downswing. The benefit to this method is your knees and hips stay more under you and it is easier to stay more centered on the backswing. Here is a good representation of this in My buddy Mike Mcnarry scroll down to the swing clips and click on the top lin for face on. http://dahlquistgolf.informe.com/viewtopic.php?t=487 if that doesnt work ( You might have to register on the site to see the clips) you can try this link http://dahlquistgolf.informe.com/viewtopic.php?t=487

 

 

 

very good post and explanation of the pivot....thanks