What's wrong with Ben Hogan's Five Lessons?

[slicefixer]

[quote name='mizuno67' post='874074' date='Jan 20 2008, 09:03 PM']this footage from 1967 masters yes i agree blew me away when i saw this looks like a lot of weight leaning left as he changes direction but one point have you considered what type of shot he was hitting maybe he was trying to hit a shot with extra "cut" spin on it? Maybe it was a shot into a par 5 you would have to ask the video author ( darracott?) i can remember reading somewhere ( i think in " the hogan mystique" jules alexander?) he was a master of this shot
Any thoughts?[/quote]



TERRIBLE camera angle Mizuno.......it's taken from behind and probably 30 degrees or more "offset" from 90 to his ADDRESS body lines and the target line...........makes him LOOK more "left" than he actually is.......AGAIN, another bit of footage that won't work for determining, with any degree of accuracy, "where his weight is" etc..........but, he was favoring his "left side" moreso than his right at the top..........

[birdie_man]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='874221' date='Jan 20 2008, 09:23 PM']Boy, where did THAT come from?? A LOT of it is HIGHLY flawed......armplane is too upright, his shaft at the top was MUCH more laid off, and the release is ALL wrong as the shoulders are square and that's a REALLY "slingy" release....(watch where the hands "disappear"......MID chest.....NOT even close......should be around "waist high")....NOT even close where it counts.........GREAT technology, but, whoever modeled it MISSED BADLY on a LOT of it........[/quote]

Are you talking in relation to Hogan?

Maybe it is more upright and less laid off because it's a longer armswing?

BTW I didn't know what you were talking about at first but ya.......once I looked at the downswing from the top view it does look like the path is going out to the right.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='birdie_man' post='874305' date='Jan 20 2008, 11:25 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='874221' date='Jan 20 2008, 09:23 PM']Boy, where did THAT come from?? A LOT of it is HIGHLY flawed......armplane is too upright, his shaft at the top was MUCH more laid off, and the release is ALL wrong as the shoulders are square and that's a REALLY "slingy" release....(watch where the hands "disappear"......MID chest.....NOT even close......should be around "waist high")....NOT even close where it counts.........GREAT technology, but, whoever modeled it MISSED BADLY on a LOT of it........[/quote]

Are you talking in relation to Hogan?

Maybe it is more upright and less laid off because it's a longer armswing?

BTW I didn't know what you were talking about at first but ya.......once I looked at the downswing from the top view it does look like the path is going out to the right.
[/quote]


Birdie, that's SUPPOSED to be Mr. Hogan....... It isn't, but, it IS some great technology.......wish I had it......and yes, he was VERY laid off........at the top, with the driver, the shaft was aimed left of target with shaft past parallel (sometimes WELL past parallel)........it was VERY laid off..........

BTW, does anyone know what software was used to create those "swings?" I have an idea, but, am NOT sure......and I can't think of the name of the software that I've seen anyway.......

[Tigersworld]

Here is a Gary Players assessment of Hogan's swing compared to Tigers kind of old but give me your guy's thoughts SF?

JuNiOR

[Rod]

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JuNiOR[/quote]


Boy, where did THAT come from?? A LOT of it is HIGHLY flawed......armplane is too upright, his shaft at the top was MUCH more laid off, and the release is ALL wrong as the shoulders are square and that's a REALLY "slingy" release....(watch where the hands "disappear"......MID chest.....NOT even close......should be around "waist high")....NOT even close where it counts.........GREAT technology, but, whoever modeled it MISSED BADLY on a LOT of it........
[/quote]


I am guessing that this was overlayed onto footage of Hogan, then filtered out. How could it be flawed? If thats how they did it then......it is what it is.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='Rod' post='874496' date='Jan 21 2008, 01:25 AM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='874221' date='Jan 20 2008, 09:23 PM'][quote name='Tigersworld' post='874114' date='Jan 20 2008, 09:28 PM']<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XDiwpfQ6OvQ&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XDiwpfQ6OvQ&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

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JuNiOR[/quote]


Boy, where did THAT come from?? A LOT of it is HIGHLY flawed......armplane is too upright, his shaft at the top was MUCH more laid off, and the release is ALL wrong as the shoulders are square and that's a REALLY "slingy" release....(watch where the hands "disappear"......MID chest.....NOT even close......should be around "waist high")....NOT even close where it counts.........GREAT technology, but, whoever modeled it MISSED BADLY on a LOT of it........
[/quote]


I am guessing that this was overlayed onto footage of Hogan, then filtered out. How could it be flawed? If thats how they did it then......it is what it is.
[/quote]


It's NOT what he "did"..........ANYONE who has REALLY studied his golf swing would KNOW it too. (for instance, a PERFECT example IS the footage of his drive off of #1 @ HCC in the Shell match in the Player footage above, IN THE NEXT FRAME AFTER the point where Mr. Player stops it his core opens and the butt of the club works LEFT....NO slingin' as in the 3D representation).......a LOT of it is somewhat correct, but, the "guts" are TOTALLY wrong.......

[slicefixer]

[quote name='Tigersworld' post='874476' date='Jan 21 2008, 01:05 AM']Here is a Gary Players assessment of Hogan's swing compared to Tigers kind of old but give me your guy's thoughts SF?

JuNiOR

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yep, IF my interpretation of what Mr. Player is driving at in this segment IS correct, that Tiger's arms are working "away" from his body in the impact zone and that requres him to "square it with his hands/arms," then I'd agree 100%..........Mr. Hogan's arms/club were VERY much "in synch" with his CORE and he could simply unwind them TOGETHER through the golf ball..........

I also agree VERY much with his thoughts on the "left wrist" as the LEFT thumb shold be "under the shaft" to support it........and the right wrist needs to be in a position to support the left thumb (why the right hand grip, heck THE GRIP, is SO important), and the right forearm/arm needs to be in a position to support the right wrist, which is supporting the left thumb, which is supporting the club .........the ONLY way you can get the club supported properly with a "flat left wrist" is to swing the arms on an extremely upright plane, which CAN be done, but, IMOP, "complicates" things a LOT...........that's why I've NEVER been a member of the "flat left wrist at the TOP" club......

[btk_1]

SF,

You say ........"bad deal IMOP as a number of movements are possible from [b]either[/b] of these set ups (lumbar vertical or lumbar tilted toward target) and all of the possible movements "complicate" the golf swing........

Would you please describe how you position the lumbar in your stock setup? Your comments seem to indicate that you advocate something other than a lumbar vertical position (or square hips)... I bring this up because JeffMan states in a proper [url="http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/weight.htm"]pivot movement[/url] (as you turn [b]INTO[/b] the right side) that the lumbar vertebra reorients itself (from a vertical position at setup) to the right to become in line with the thoracic spine at the top-backswing position... Comments?

Thanks, btk_1

[slicefixer]

[quote name='btk_1' post='874953' date='Jan 21 2008, 01:19 PM']SF,

You say ........"bad deal IMOP as a number of movements are possible from [b]either[/b] of these set ups (lumbar vertical or lumbar tilted toward target) and all of the possible movements "complicate" the golf swing........

Would you please describe how you position the lumbar in your stock setup? Your comments seem to indicate that you advocate something other than a lumbar vertical position (or square hips)... I bring this up because JeffMan states in a proper [url="http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/weight.htm"]pivot movement[/url] (as you turn [b]INTO[/b] the right side) that the lumbar vertebra reorients itself (from a vertical position at setup) to the right to become in line with the thoracic spine at the top-backswing position... Comments?

Thanks, btk_1[/quote]


Yep, first of all whether the lumbar is vertical or not has NOTHING to do with whether the hips are square........zero, nada...........and, by getting both sections "in line" you ELIMINATE any movement necessary to get them "in line"......they will have to get "in line" at some point to PIVOT properly so you might as well do it from the "get go"...... IMOP, you "set" both sections "in line" and on a slight tilt away from the target........basically the tilt away is accomplished when you place the right hand "on top of and below the left"......when you do this both sections of spine should be "in line" and on a slight tilt........when done properly the shoulders will be square to slightly open with the hips square to the players intended INITIAL line of flight........

[ej002]

Slice, I interpreted BTK 1's comment as asking - do you advocate something other than VERTICAL HIPS at address. If this is not what BTK 1 meant, could you describe the proper set up of the lumbar and the hips? Are the hips slightly tilted as well?


Would you please describe how you position the lumbar in your stock setup? Your comments seem to indicate that you advocate something other than a lumbar vertical position (or [b]square hips[/b])... I bring this up because JeffMan states in a proper pivot movement (as you turn INTO the right side) that the lumbar vertebra reorients itself (from a vertical position at setup) to the right to become in line with the thoracic spine at the top-backswing position... Comments?

[FlyFish]

Slice, I was watching Hogan hit balls into the ocean in the George Coleman video and he appears to have lost the high right hip setup. Do you think that this is something that he learned later in life?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IXn-LHrJt8#GU5U2spHI_4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IXn-LHrJt8#GU5U2spHI_4[/url]

[mizuno67]

Can you tell me how Hogan hit the ball on his downswing i have read a lot of conflicting opinions
in regard to whether the club or shaft was pulled left with his left side or if he hit it with his right side
Did he rotate his left forearm on the downswing?Did he actually supinate or was this a result of something else?Or did he just get in the perfect position and hit the crap out of it with everything ?

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='mizuno67' post='875550' date='Jan 21 2008, 07:21 PM']Can you tell me how Hogan hit the ball on his downswing i have read a lot of conflicting opinions
in regard to whether the club or shaft was pulled left with his left side or if he hit it with his right side
Did he rotate his left forearm on the downswing?Did he actually supinate or was this a result of something else?Or did he just get in the perfect position and hit the crap out of it with everything ?[/quote]

SliceFixer will correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I have come up with as regards Hogan's downswing motion after hours of analyses.
First of all, his left side of his turning body was very important since it was pushing his left arm, that was pinned accross the chest. There was no active pulling motion from the part of his left arm. When he delivered the clubface to a square-to-the-arc position more or less at waist high, his right forearm (not whole arm !) activated and also pushed the grip forward and to the left (the so-called rear forearm throw). Thus, Hogan had 2 pushing elements that were excellently coordinated while he was deadly on plane - his turning body and his right forearm.
What happened with his wrists was just the result of the above. The palmar flexion of his lead wrist (which Hogan called supination) was a result of his ability to keep his right wrist hinged so long, since it was his forearm, not his wrist, that was being thrown. The turning body took care of the rest. It's the beauty of this swing - timing elements are reduced to a minimum.

My 3 eurocents, cheers.

[mizuno67]

can you explain this in more detail thanks

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='mizuno67' post='879330' date='Jan 23 2008, 08:10 PM']can you explain this in more detail thanks[/quote]

Hmmm...I do not know if I can explain it in more detail...maybe it would be better if you ask particular questions (what part you're interested in explaining), so it would be easier for me (or hopefully for more knowledgeable experts of Hogan's swing) to answer.

Cheers

[mizuno67]

ok i re read your reply so i will try to understand the meaning Correct me where i am wrong
1) the turning of the lower body makes the left arm push away from the chest
2) the right forearm throw creates the supination
? how does the right forearm throw work
is it turned down in an anti clockwise manner?
the left arm does not pull in the downswing?

hope im not boring you with these questions and one more what causes the right wrist to arch upwards when is finishing his swing?

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='mizuno67' post='880068' date='Jan 24 2008, 10:13 AM']ok i re read your reply so i will try to understand the meaning Correct me where i am wrong
1) the turning of the lower body makes the left arm push away from the chest
2) the right forearm throw creates the supination
? how does the right forearm throw work
is it turned down in an anti clockwise manner?
the left arm does not pull in the downswing?

hope im not boring you with these questions and one more what causes the right wrist to arch upwards when is finishing his swing?[/quote]


Not at all, mate...when comes to Hogan and his swing I could talk for hours...even without cold beer

I'll try my best. IMHO:

1) no. The turning body does not push the lead arm AWAY from the body; au contre, it pushes lead arm (which is not active) and, therefore, the connection between it and the chest is maintained beautifully (I think TGMers call it PP#4 phenomenon) with almost all length of the arm accross the chest. Watch how his left arm is "glued" to the open body at the impact zone - an excellent push or even also slap-hinge release position.

[attachment=211108:th_Hogan...n_impact.jpg]

the connection is still well visible at follow-through:

[attachment=211109:th_Hogan...low_thru.jpg]

2) Hogan created additional "heft" by throwing his right forearm at the ball (he wished "three right hands", remember ?); he was not pulling but pushing - the palmar flexion position of the left wrist can be achieved either when you pull your left WRIST (not Hogan) or when you push your right FOREARM (Hogan) - since the right wrist hinge creates by itself the palmar flexion of the left wrist. Think about nunchakoos - imagine that your right forearm is one part, your hand with the club is the other part, and THE WRIST IS THE CHAIN. If you throw the forearm (first part of a nunchakoo) forward - it's natural that your hand together with the club (second part of a nunchakoo) will be delayed when your wrist (nunchakoo chain) is flexible enough. It's an excellent method of creating lag and forward shaft lean at impact - far superior, IMO, than concentrating on pulling left arm and keeping your left wrict cocked as long as possible.

3) because the crossover of Hogan's arms happened late in the follow-through (as it should be in a push release) and practically lasted till the end of the swing and his right arm was still dominant one till the end of the swing.

Cheers

[mizuno67]

thanks for the reply so the right forearm gets thrown towards the ball you don't have to rotate it?
or do both forearms rotate naturally from the lower body turning and the "right forearm throw"?
how does mr slicefixer interpret hogans downswing?

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='mizuno67' post='881136' date='Jan 24 2008, 08:13 PM']thanks for the reply so the right forearm gets thrown towards the ball you don't have to rotate it?
or do both forearms rotate naturally from the lower body turning and the "right forearm throw"?
how does mr slicefixer interpret hogans downswing?[/quote]

Of course you don't, since the clubface is already brought to its perpendicular-to-the-swing-arc position. The rotation happens in the first part of the downswing. It's the turning body that keeps the clubface perpendicular from waist high to waist high....that's why the most important timing issues at the impact zone of forearms and hands are eliminated.

Cheers

[Albatros]

Ahhh... more Hogan swing talk. Love it.

Not to derail the thread... but my personal experience with Five Lessons was/is great, except for one thing - the right hand grip. I've found that I personally need to have my right hand more behind/under the club vs. what Hogan states in his book. That may also be because my left hand is a bit stronger than his recommended left hand setup. But once I got my right hand grip more diagonal accross the palm vs. deep in the middle two fingers(remember the pic of him holding the club with his two R hand fingers?), the feel at the top of the backswing was sweet and delivery was much better. I end up with both "V"s pointing outside my right ear, but inside my right shoulder.

That was my only major issue with 5 Lessons...and again, its just me and in no way am I saying that his grip is wrong.

[xiaoxiong]

[quote name='FlyFish' post='866664' date='Jan 16 2008, 03:24 PM']Although the description of the grip was a great attempt, the actual implementation puts the grip too much in the palm of the left hand. This will spell disaster for many slicers.[/quote]

[quote]Ahhh... more Hogan swing talk. Love it.

Not to derail the thread... but my personal experience with Five Lessons was/is great, except for one thing - the right hand grip. I've found that I personally need to have my right hand more behind/under the club vs. what Hogan states in his book. That may also be because my left hand is a bit stronger than his recommended left hand setup. But once I got my right hand grip more diagonal accross the palm vs. deep in the middle two fingers(remember the pic of him holding the club with his two R hand fingers?), the feel at the top of the backswing was sweet and delivery was much better. I end up with both "V"s pointing outside my right ear, but inside my right shoulder.

That was my only major issue with 5 Lessons...and again, its just me and in no way am I saying that his grip is wrong.[/quote]

Talking about the grip, I strictly adhere to grip (left and right hand) as described in 5 lessons and had no problem. I pay special attention to left hand and do put the grip in the palm. From my reading, Brian Manzella also recommend grip more in the left palm instead of finger. This is in stark contrast from Leadbetter's recommendation in his book on 5 lessons. In that book, Leadbetter suggest more grip in left finger.

[mizuno67]

ok thanks great stuff one more question if you don't mind you said the forearms rotate at the start of the downswing which way do they rotate and what makes them rotate ??

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='mizuno67' post='883138' date='Jan 25 2008, 09:20 PM']ok thanks great stuff one more question if you don't mind you said the forearms rotate at the start of the downswing which way do they rotate and what makes them rotate ??[/quote]

The rotation of the forearms is strictly dependent on right elbow position. Many golfers trying to learn the OP swing are concentrating on the very rotation. IMHO, it can happen by itself. If your body is turning properly (delivering your body to an open position at impact) and your right arm is dominant there is no possibility that your right hand elbow will go in front of the body. And...if your right elbow stays behind the rear hip the clubface is more or less already square to the arc. Try it yourself - try to deliver an open clubface to the ball and close it rapidly at impact (exactly what golfers with a crossover release are doing) - you will see that you have to throw your right elbow in front of your body already at waist high position in the downswing. If you keep the elbow behind the rear hip until the impact - I guarantee you that your clubface is already square to the arc (which look closed for some old-school teachers) since the waist high position for those pure biomechanical reasons.
Jim Hardy's OP swing students make famous the "twist & throw" technique; it underlines the necessity of twisting forearms anticlockwise at the start of the downswing. If it works for someone - fine. I feel much better when I concentrate on my right elbow correct position (that is dependent of a proper turn and proper weight location during the swing) than to make such a deliberate twisting move. It's easier for me. If you find that it's easier to concentrate on "twisting" - go with it.
I suggest you to go to the Jim Hardy's Forum for detailed descriptions written independently by various OP students.

Cheers

[mizuno67]

ok thanks so in your opinion hogan at his best used method like what jim hardy teaches with the right elbow behind the hip not in front?? i read somewhere Hogan was going to write a book or be in some sort of article where he was going to say this was his secret but he backed out last minute. I this true?? and if it is who did he disclose this to??

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

Well, Jim Hardy believes that this might have been Mr.Hogan's true secret, according to what he wrote in his "Master Class" book. I tend to agree that the very idea of having the clubface parallel to the swing arc as long as possible was crucial for The Maestro. He could rotate his body as hard as he liked and hit the ball with his right forearm as hard as he liked as well after the change in his swing - without being afraid of hooking balls. He definitely got rid of a crossover release in favour of a push release - it would confirm that he wanted to have an "extended in time", better release.
But was it The Secret ? I don't know. It's quite tempting for me to assume that The Secret was a mental idea (e.g. such as the above one) and not a single move in the swing (which I think is not possible at all). I think personally that Mr.Hogan had always a great swing that was per se "prepared" to introduce to it such an idea, sooner or later. When he did it he became the best ballstriker in the history of golf.
So, yes, I think that Jim Hardy was onto something wih this idea and it's worth to learn his OP swing because there are a lot of similarities to Hogan's late swing. OTOH, no need to have illusions that Jim Hardy will teach you the same swing as Hogan had - Hogan's swing was his and only his...you would need his DNA to copy it in detail. But OP swing will teach you how to minimize the timing factors in the swing - and this is as important for a PGA pro as for a person struggling to break 90 or 100. The less timing dependent swing, the greater are chances for consistency and repeatability. "Control is the game"...

Cheers

[mizuno67]

thanks great stuff i can't help but think if hogan uses his right forearm according to theory why would he do this instead of controlling this motion with his right shoulder using the lat muscles on his back?
also i read a lot of differnt types of releases random release block release sweep release push release slap release wow how many are there according to tgm i'm not familiar with there terminology?
have you guys had a discussion on this topic before?

cheers

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='mizuno67' post='884667' date='Jan 26 2008, 11:31 PM']thanks great stuff i can't help but think if hogan uses his right forearm according to theory why would he do this instead of controlling this motion with his right shoulder using the lat muscles on his back?
also i read a lot of differnt types of releases random release block release sweep release push release slap release wow how many are there according to tgm i'm not familiar with there terminology?
have you guys had a discussion on this topic before?

cheers[/quote]

Well, except driver, you want to hit at the ball with hands before the ball (forward shaft lean); it's much easier to control the shaft and the clubface it if the element of the body that brings "heft" (left side of the body) is located ahead of the ball at impact than behind the ball.
As regards release types, search this forum, we had a discussion about them not so long ago (push, slap-hinge, crossover). And this is not TGM, it's Henry Cotton's classification which is the simplest and the best I could find anywhere until now.

Cheers

[slicefixer]

Mr. Hogan was VERY "left sided" and did NOTHING with his right arm except maintain his angles from the top......period........it's ALL there in the footage........He also didn't work his left arm "across his chest" nearly as much as most think........once again, it's ALL in the footage.......he did "turn his right side through the ball".........you wanna' feel that then get yourself an impact bag and blast away........"left side clears and the right side braces/supports the blow".....It's a VERY powerful "feeling".........

And, IF my interpretation of Hardy's "start the lawnmower/right arm throwever" moves are correct (and I'm almost certain they are correct) he DIDN'T do them either.......where/how people come up with some of this stuff is beyond me.......

As for explanations regarding the above statements, they are ALL here on this site so I'm not going to bother postin' em' again........

[Schleeman]

Hey Gang,
Did someone mention the left arm and the left elbow turning through the impact area? Remember, this action is a learned action and must be practiced over and over again in slow motion to develop an uninhibited move in the hitting area. The more your body can feel and recognize this movement and the more you understand this movement, the more accurate your ball striking will be. If the left elbow goes down the target line through impact, it becomes more difficult to square up the clubface and more often than not the shot will be directed right. Then golfers with this problem start releasing the club early only to square up the clubface... and the list goes on with trying to fix a fault with a fault.
When I worked with John Schlee he often explained detailed parts of the swing that he and Hogan discussed. One huge topic was the arms being close together and Hogan's inability to do so because of the injuries he received from his bus accident. Schlee told me that Hogan found he could bring the arms closer as his swing started, but it created too much tension for him at address.
I could go on.......so if you have any specific question I can answer, feel free.

Thanks,
Tom Bertrand

[mizuno67]

Ok i have some questions
1) people advocate hogan keeps his left arm glued to his chest on the downswing well quite frankly i don't see this at all watching him on film i see the left arm away from his chest coming in to the hitting area and then the upper part reconnecting as he hits the ball I may be wrong???
2) did hogan actively supinate at impact?
3) did he "drag" the club on the takeaway to help get the elbows closer together
4) stories say hogan divulged his secret was the right elbow staying up and back in the downswing according to jim hardy is this true?
5) did he pull the left arm through the hitting area or "push" the right arm on the downswing?
6) did he actively rotate his forearms on the backswing ? did he rotate them on the downswing?

sorry for so many questions but honestly i'm just at the starting blocks!!