What's wrong with Ben Hogan's Five Lessons?

[mizuno67]

yes its quite confusing for me and i am not up to date with all your posts but i have looked at the guys golf swings you teach on youtube and some of them are exceptional swings not pissing in your pocket just calling it as i see it and im just looking for answers

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='885815' date='Jan 27 2008, 07:16 PM']Mr. Hogan was VERY "left sided" and did NOTHING with his right arm except maintain his angles from the top......period........it's ALL there in the footage........He also didn't work his left arm "across his chest" nearly as much as most think........once again, it's ALL in the footage.......he did "turn his right side through the ball".........you wanna' feel that then get yourself an impact bag and blast away........"left side clears and the right side braces/supports the blow".....It's a VERY powerful "feeling".........

And, IF my interpretation of Hardy's "start the lawnmower/right arm throwever" moves are correct (and I'm almost certain they are correct) he DIDN'T do them either.......where/how people come up with some of this stuff is beyond me.......

As for explanations regarding the above statements, they are ALL here on this site so I'm not going to bother postin' em' again........[/quote]

SF, Hardy's OP swing theory differ with Hogan's swing in some details, no doubt. Lawnmower move is definitely not a Hogan's move. As you said, Hogan was strongly "left sided" golfer - I agree 100% if it refers to his body, not left arm. I really do not see much of a left arm action in the swing...OTOH, I definitely see the right forearm powerful throw.
It's very good you touched the concept of having both arms as close as possible to each other during the swing. It's also not a Hardy move. IMHO, among others, that's why Hogan could actively use his right forearm to add power from waist high during downswing. His upper right arm was lying passive at his shirt seam, his right elbow was anchored at his rear hip - excellent situation to use his rear forearm...
As regards his left arm that is not so much across his chest - IMHO, what matters is that it was across his chest at impact and post impact where this connection is mostly needed. The more distal parts away from the body at impact - the worse, since timing issues enter on much bigger scale. It even helps my theory - if his left arm was not pinned accross the chest before impact - what else could bring it connected to the left side of his body if not a passive mass of his lead arm and his torso being "quicker" and pushing it after the connection ?

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='mizuno67' post='885981' date='Jan 27 2008, 08:32 PM']Ok i have some questions
1) people advocate hogan keeps his left arm glued to his chest on the downswing well quite frankly i don't see this at all watching him on film i see the left arm away from his chest coming in to the hitting area and then the upper part reconnecting as he hits the ball I may be wrong???
2) did hogan actively supinate at impact?
3) did he "drag" the club on the takeaway to help get the elbows closer together
4) stories say hogan divulged his secret was the right elbow staying up and back in the downswing according to jim hardy is this true?
5) did he pull the left arm through the hitting area or "push" the right arm on the downswing?
6) did he actively rotate his forearms on the backswing ? did he rotate them on the downswing?

sorry for so many questions but honestly i'm just at the starting blocks!![/quote]

My theory, for what it's worth - I wonder what other Hoganites think:
1 - whatever, maybe; what matters is that his lead upper arm and his left side of the body was connected tightly at the impact zone;
2- no;
3 - yes, although not so much as of hickory era takeaway;
4 - Jim Hardy does not say that The Secret is his elbow staying "up and back"; he believes that The Secret might have been Hogan's concept of maintaining the clubface perpendicular to the swing arc as long as possible; the position of his right elbow was only a biomechanical consequence of commiting to this concept;
5 - he pulled his left side of the body (not the very arm) and added right forearm push (throw) from waist-high position;
6 - no and no; they are rotating for pure biomechanical reasons - you can't swing having the clubhead perpendicular to the arc for the whole swing; you can do it from waist high in the downswing to waist high in the follow through.

OK, I guess I wrote enough posts about my theory of Hogan's swing; I will have a big ear for other theories and change mine (even if I see that all lego pieces matches well in mine).

Cheers

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' post='886663' date='Jan 28 2008, 09:13 AM'][quote name='mizuno67' post='885981' date='Jan 27 2008, 08:32 PM']Ok i have some questions
1) people advocate hogan keeps his left arm glued to his chest on the downswing well quite frankly i don't see this at all watching him on film i see the left arm away from his chest coming in to the hitting area and then the upper part reconnecting as he hits the ball I may be wrong???
2) did hogan actively supinate at impact?
3) did he "drag" the club on the takeaway to help get the elbows closer together
4) stories say hogan divulged his secret was the right elbow staying up and back in the downswing according to jim hardy is this true?
5) did he pull the left arm through the hitting area or "push" the right arm on the downswing?
6) did he actively rotate his forearms on the backswing ? did he rotate them on the downswing?

sorry for so many questions but honestly i'm just at the starting blocks!![/quote]

My theory, for what it's worth - I wonder what other Hoganites think:
1 - whatever, maybe; what matters is that his lead upper arm and his left side of the body was connected tightly at the impact zone;
2- no;
3 - yes, although not so much as of hickory era takeaway;
4 - Jim Hardy does not say that The Secret is his elbow staying "up and back"; he believes that The Secret might have been Hogan's concept of maintaining the clubface perpendicular to the swing arc as long as possible; the position of his right elbow was only a biomechanical consequence of commiting to this concept;
5 - he pulled his left side of the body (not the very arm) and added right forearm push (throw) from waist-high position;
6 - no and no; they are rotating for pure biomechanical reasons - you can't swing having the clubhead perpendicular to the arc for the whole swing; you can do it from waist high in the downswing to waist high in the follow through.

OK, I guess I wrote enough posts about my theory of Hogan's swing; I will have a big ear for other theories and change mine (even if I see that all lego pieces matches well in mine).

Cheers
[/quote]

1. Original poster is correct. He did not "connect" the left arm through the entire swing. Yes in the impact zone and just past impact. He stressed this to several of his peers. Jackie Burke talks about it in the "Ben Hogan Collection" I believe (for sure on one of the Hogan DVD's). This connection is absolutely vital for releasing the club in the manner Hogan did (swinging left). IMO, this is one of the most important aspects of Hogan's swing, yet he never wrote about it.
2. No, at least not the left hand/wrist. He did keep the left elbow down in the impact zone and follow through which is supported by supination of the elbow (chicken or egg problem in my mind). This is one of the very unfortunate errors in 5 Lessons that screws a lot of people up. Hogan did not "roll his forearms" through impact!!!
3. He did have a little of the "caddie drag" look to his takeaway earlier in his career. I think it diminished later in his career. I don't think this had to do with trying to get the arms close together I think it was just consistent with his idea about a "one piece" takeaway. He did keep the arms close during the swing, did not pull his right elbow back behind him at all - kept it down.
4. Hardy didn't say that. He said Hogan rotated the club early in the downswing so that the face would be perpendicular to the arc of the swing for a longer period of time. I disagree with that assertion and there's plenty of photo/video evidence to show that Hogan kept the face very open for a long time in the downswing. He did keep the face perpendicular to the arc for a long time in his follow through
5. Hogan was mostly a "puller" with the left side. He probably added some right hand power in the impact zone but I don't believe he was a "pusher" or thrower of the right forearm as Hardy advocates.
6. Yes, he actively pronated his forearms in the backswing. This was key in his consistently getting on his "pane of glass" (which was much lower than illustrated in 5 lessons). No, he did not [b]actively[/b] supinate the forearms/hands in the downswing.

Just my opinions of course, based on lots of studying and observation.

Welcome back, Schleeman! It's been too long.

[Schleeman]

[quote name='mizuno67' post='885981' date='Jan 27 2008, 06:32 PM']Ok i have some questions
1) people advocate hogan keeps his left arm glued to his chest on the downswing well quite frankly i don't see this at all watching him on film i see the left arm away from his chest coming in to the hitting area and then the upper part reconnecting as he hits the ball I may be wrong???
2) did hogan actively supinate at impact?
3) did he "drag" the club on the takeaway to help get the elbows closer together
4) stories say hogan divulged his secret was the right elbow staying up and back in the downswing according to jim hardy is this true?
5) did he pull the left arm through the hitting area or "push" the right arm on the downswing?
6) did he actively rotate his forearms on the backswing ? did he rotate them on the downswing?

sorry for so many questions but honestly i'm just at the starting blocks!![/quote]

I like to respond to questions in simple terms for a better visual aspect. I would also like to point out there are actions in the golf swing and there are reactions.
1. I myself wouldn't say he tried to keep the left arm glued to his chest. It was a reaction from trying to keep his arms together.
2. John told me, Hogan liked to think of it as Palm up and palm down. He actively tried to get his right palm facing the ground to create a wipe like effect in the hitting area.
3. I don't know.
4. Read my book for the Missing Link to Hogan's Secret. His secret was a combination of movements designed to simplify the swing. Like I said before, there are actions and there are reactions. Many times people dwell on the reactions and do not focus the proper attention to the action itself. For example. if you keep your arms close together and rotate back, allowing the right elbow to fold to the ground, you WILL find your natural swing plane. The action is the arms and the reaction is being on proper plane. You don't have to worry about anything else, the left arm goes across the chest with no lifting action involved.
5.I don't even like people to think of it as a push or a pull. The lower body uncoils, the upper body reverses rotation, the arms are guided back to the ball, it is captured on the clubface, and the explosion is the sling or the release to the target. There is no hit involved.
6. He actively rotated his hands in what he called his "twist" on the backswing, but he didn't actively rotate the forearms. A little rotation was the reaction of the hands twisting. He practiced rotating the left arm through the impact area to clear the way for the right side.

Hope this helps,
Tom B.

[mizuno67]

thanks for your answers the book i have seen so i should get a copy
the left forearm rotation on the downswing was this from the start of it or only through the hitting zone?

Cheers

[rok78]

[quote name='Schleeman' post='886806' date='Jan 28 2008, 06:18 AM'][quote name='mizuno67' post='885981' date='Jan 27 2008, 06:32 PM']Ok i have some questions
1) people advocate hogan keeps his left arm glued to his chest on the downswing well quite frankly i don't see this at all watching him on film i see the left arm away from his chest coming in to the hitting area and then the upper part reconnecting as he hits the ball I may be wrong???
2) did hogan actively supinate at impact?
3) did he "drag" the club on the takeaway to help get the elbows closer together
4) stories say hogan divulged his secret was the right elbow staying up and back in the downswing according to jim hardy is this true?
5) did he pull the left arm through the hitting area or "push" the right arm on the downswing?
6) did he actively rotate his forearms on the backswing ? did he rotate them on the downswing?

sorry for so many questions but honestly i'm just at the starting blocks!![/quote]

I like to respond to questions in simple terms for a better visual aspect. I would also like to point out there are actions in the golf swing and there are reactions.
1. I myself wouldn't say he tried to keep the left arm glued to his chest. It was a reaction from trying to keep his arms together.
2. John told me, Hogan liked to think of it as Palm up and palm down. He actively tried to get his right palm facing the ground to create a wipe like effect in the hitting area.
3. I don't know.
4. Read my book for the Missing Link to Hogan's Secret. His secret was a combination of movements designed to simplify the swing. Like I said before, there are actions and there are reactions. Many times people dwell on the reactions and do not focus the proper attention to the action itself. For example. if you keep your arms close together and rotate back, allowing the right elbow to fold to the ground, you WILL find your natural swing plane. The action is the arms and the reaction is being on proper plane. You don't have to worry about anything else, the left arm goes across the chest with no lifting action involved.
5.I don't even like people to think of it as a push or a pull. The lower body uncoils, the upper body reverses rotation, the arms are guided back to the ball, it is captured on the clubface, and the explosion is the sling or the release to the target. There is no hit involved.
6. He actively rotated his hands in what he called his "twist" on the backswing, but he didn't actively rotate the forearms. A little rotation was the reaction of the hands twisting. He practiced rotating the left arm through the impact area to clear the way for the right side.

Hope this helps,
Tom B.
[/quote]

Hi Tom,

I have your book and have really enjoyed it. The right palm down move through impact is actually the same thing Hardy describes as the feeling he wants people to have for the right forearm throw. There's even a Youtube of Tom Pernice working on the movement. I just thought it was interesting that both of you bring up that exact same motion, and really validates it. But I guess you differ, in that you don't think it should be a controlling motion/feeling of the swing, rather a consequence of correct movement?

[mizuno67]

thanks for all the responses to the questions a few different opinions but that's golf
a couple of things i see maybe not correct is hogan keeps his right shoulder high in the transition
and his right hand is on top of the shaft at impact particularly post accident
any thoughts?

[Schleeman]

[quote name='rok78' post='886839' date='Jan 28 2008, 09:43 AM'][quote name='Schleeman' post='886806' date='Jan 28 2008, 06:18 AM'][quote name='mizuno67' post='885981' date='Jan 27 2008, 06:32 PM']Ok i have some questions
1) people advocate hogan keeps his left arm glued to his chest on the downswing well quite frankly i don't see this at all watching him on film i see the left arm away from his chest coming in to the hitting area and then the upper part reconnecting as he hits the ball I may be wrong???
2) did hogan actively supinate at impact?
3) did he "drag" the club on the takeaway to help get the elbows closer together
4) stories say hogan divulged his secret was the right elbow staying up and back in the downswing according to jim hardy is this true?
5) did he pull the left arm through the hitting area or "push" the right arm on the downswing?
6) did he actively rotate his forearms on the backswing ? did he rotate them on the downswing?

sorry for so many questions but honestly i'm just at the starting blocks!![/quote]

I like to respond to questions in simple terms for a better visual aspect. I would also like to point out there are actions in the golf swing and there are reactions.
1. I myself wouldn't say he tried to keep the left arm glued to his chest. It was a reaction from trying to keep his arms together.
2. John told me, Hogan liked to think of it as Palm up and palm down. He actively tried to get his right palm facing the ground to create a wipe like effect in the hitting area.
3. I don't know.
4. Read my book for the Missing Link to Hogan's Secret. His secret was a combination of movements designed to simplify the swing. Like I said before, there are actions and there are reactions. Many times people dwell on the reactions and do not focus the proper attention to the action itself. For example. if you keep your arms close together and rotate back, allowing the right elbow to fold to the ground, you WILL find your natural swing plane. The action is the arms and the reaction is being on proper plane. You don't have to worry about anything else, the left arm goes across the chest with no lifting action involved.
5.I don't even like people to think of it as a push or a pull. The lower body uncoils, the upper body reverses rotation, the arms are guided back to the ball, it is captured on the clubface, and the explosion is the sling or the release to the target. There is no hit involved.
6. He actively rotated his hands in what he called his "twist" on the backswing, but he didn't actively rotate the forearms. A little rotation was the reaction of the hands twisting. He practiced rotating the left arm through the impact area to clear the way for the right side.

Hope this helps,
Tom B.
[/quote]

Hi Tom,

I have your book and have really enjoyed it. The right palm down move through impact is actually the same thing Hardy describes as the feeling he wants people to have for the right forearm throw. There's even a Youtube of Tom Pernice working on the movement. I just thought it was interesting that both of you bring up that exact same motion, and really validates it. But I guess you differ, in that you don't think it should be a controlling motion/feeling of the swing, rather a consequence of correct movement?
[/quote]

Hi rok78,

I differ when people are learning the motion for the first time. They need to understand the sequence before they can exhibit the move powerfully. Once they understand that the lower body leads, and the left arm guides, then you can introduce the feeling of more right hand power (3 right hands).
The one thing I do not agree with, in Hardy's analysis, is the right forearm throw with the right elbow outside of the right hip. Hogan wanted the right hip and the right arm (elbow) to almost feel connected on the downswing.
If the right elbow is outside the right hip then energy is wasted early and you have a feeling of swinging at the ball and not through the ball.

Tom B

mizuno67,

Hogan wasn't into "working under" or "hitting against a firm left side". He was into swinging around his body, so when he entered the impact zone the right hand did feel on top of the shaft to create the wiping motion Schlee always talked about. Consequently, the right shoulder wasn't so much lower than the left.

[hoganfan924]

[attachment=212619:hogan_pi...bow_1954.jpg]

There 'ya go. So much for Hardy's notion that Hogan didn't want the right elbow to lead in a "pitch" position or that he wanted it on his side not in front of the right hip. Picture from 1954. You don't need to "flip over" the club with the right elbow in this position to square the face as Hardy stated in his "secret vault" DVD's either. You just need to pull the butt end of the club left through and after impact with your pivot and the face will square up on it's own. Works great!!

[rok78]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='887355' date='Jan 28 2008, 11:23 AM'][attachment=212619:hogan_pi...bow_1954.jpg]

There 'ya go. So much for Hardy's notion that Hogan didn't want the right elbow to lead in a "pitch" position or that he wanted it on his side not in front of the right hip. Picture from 1954. You don't need to "flip over" the club with the right elbow in this position to square the face as Hardy stated in his "secret vault" DVD's either. You just need to pull the butt end of the club left through and after impact with your pivot and the face will square up on it's own. Works great!![/quote]

Well, you know I've "evolved" a little since then. Even a bit more than the last time I PM'd you about my little S&T sessions. I'm about as far away from trying to get my right elbow behind the seam of my shirt as you can get. Although the upper right arm attached to the torso is a good feel that I've been trying to engrain lately. In fact, I will have to either PM you or start a new thread on a set up question I've been tinkering with.

[rok78]

[quote name='Schleeman' post='887281' date='Jan 28 2008, 10:58 AM'][quote name='rok78' post='886839' date='Jan 28 2008, 09:43 AM'][quote name='Schleeman' post='886806' date='Jan 28 2008, 06:18 AM']
I like to respond to questions in simple terms for a better visual aspect. I would also like to point out there are actions in the golf swing and there are reactions.
1. I myself wouldn't say he tried to keep the left arm glued to his chest. It was a reaction from trying to keep his arms together.
2. John told me, Hogan liked to think of it as Palm up and palm down. He actively tried to get his right palm facing the ground to create a wipe like effect in the hitting area.
3. I don't know.
4. Read my book for the Missing Link to Hogan's Secret. His secret was a combination of movements designed to simplify the swing. Like I said before, there are actions and there are reactions. Many times people dwell on the reactions and do not focus the proper attention to the action itself. For example. if you keep your arms close together and rotate back, allowing the right elbow to fold to the ground, you WILL find your natural swing plane. The action is the arms and the reaction is being on proper plane. You don't have to worry about anything else, the left arm goes across the chest with no lifting action involved.
5.I don't even like people to think of it as a push or a pull. The lower body uncoils, the upper body reverses rotation, the arms are guided back to the ball, it is captured on the clubface, and the explosion is the sling or the release to the target. There is no hit involved.
6. He actively rotated his hands in what he called his "twist" on the backswing, but he didn't actively rotate the forearms. A little rotation was the reaction of the hands twisting. He practiced rotating the left arm through the impact area to clear the way for the right side.

Hope this helps,
Tom B.[/quote]

Hi Tom,

I have your book and have really enjoyed it. The right palm down move through impact is actually the same thing Hardy describes as the feeling he wants people to have for the right forearm throw. There's even a Youtube of Tom Pernice working on the movement. I just thought it was interesting that both of you bring up that exact same motion, and really validates it. But I guess you differ, in that you don't think it should be a controlling motion/feeling of the swing, rather a consequence of correct movement?
[/quote]

Hi rok78,

I differ when people are learning the motion for the first time. They need to understand the sequence before they can exhibit the move powerfully. Once they understand that the lower body leads, and the left arm guides, then you can introduce the feeling of more right hand power (3 right hands).
The one thing I do not agree with, in Hardy's analysis, is the right forearm throw with the right elbow outside of the right hip. Hogan wanted the right hip and the right arm (elbow) to almost feel connected on the downswing.
If the right elbow is outside the right hip then energy is wasted early and you have a feeling of swinging at the ball and not through the ball.

Tom B

mizuno67,

Hogan wasn't into "working under" or "hitting against a firm left side". He was into swinging around his body, so when he entered the impact zone the right hand did feel on top of the shaft to create the wiping motion Schlee always talked about. Consequently, the right shoulder wasn't so much lower than the left.
[/quote]

Thanks for the reply Tom,

After much time on the range myself, I figured that up and back isn't necessary to have that arm movement. But I like the right elbow as a pivot point for the forearm to work around.

[mizuno67]

thanks for the replies and the picture is great definetly dispels Hardy's notion i can put the plane thruth back on the shelf looks like im off to the bookstore

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='mizuno67' post='887875' date='Jan 28 2008, 08:58 PM']thanks for the replies and the picture is great definetly dispels Hardy's notion i can put the plane thruth back on the shelf looks like im off to the bookstore[/quote]

Sorry, didn't mean it to come off so negative. I think Jim Hardy is a fine instructor who deserves all the credit in the world for being the first to publish a book outlining that there are two distinctly different swing styles that have their own pieces to the puzzle and that a "one plane" style has less timing elements in squaring the face. I think "The Plane Truth" is a fine book. But, in his "Masters Class" book, he makes some claims about things he believes that Hogan did that I obviously disagree with.

Here's another pic that shows Hogan did not turn the clubface perpendicular to the arc early in the downswing:
[attachment=212808:Hogan_slot.jpg]

[mizuno67]

good photo from the same sequence that slicefixer uses as regards to hardy i personally think his method would work more for someone who has the clubface more "open" at the top of the backswing

[slicefixer]

[quote name='mizuno67' post='885981' date='Jan 27 2008, 09:32 PM']Ok i have some questions
1) people advocate hogan keeps his left arm glued to his chest on the downswing well quite frankly i don't see this at all watching him on film i see the left arm away from his chest coming in to the hitting area and then the upper part reconnecting as he hits the ball I may be wrong???

Nope, your DEAD ON.........(Part of his secret IMOP......HF has seen the videos with his own eye's etc. so he can attest)

2) did hogan actively supinate at impact?

NOPE, when the arms/club are being PULLED "left" the butt of the club is PULLED left and the face squares up........."supination" (hate that word) simply OCCURS as a result..........

3) did he "drag" the club on the takeaway to help get the elbows closer together

Nope, not IMOP...........

Nope, the "drag" was simply a result of everything starting together and the "look" was exaggerated due to his having his hands in line with his navel ("back) moreso than most........."ONE piece moveaway/takeaway"

4) stories say hogan divulged his secret was the right elbow staying up and back in the downswing according to jim hardy is this true?

Nope, NOT even close IMOP.........frankly, I don't know where Hardy comes up with this stuff as the video contradicts EVERYTHING that's been reported that he's stated about Mr. Hogan..........however, I've NOT heard it with my own ears so he deserves the benefit of the doubt.........It's easy for something a person says to be GREATLY distorted by others once it exits their mouth......

5) did he pull the left arm through the hitting area or "push" the right arm on the downswing?

100% PULL.........do you see his right shoulder "slowing down" in the downswing/impact zone.....HELL NO........you can't "push agasint a pulling force" and to do so REQUIRES the core's rotation to slow........as a result, when a player is "slowing and slingin" or "pushing" you CAN see the shoulder rotation "slow"...........

6) did he actively rotate his forearms on the backswing ? did he rotate them on the downswing?

Yes, LEFT forearm/arm............NOPE, they were along for the ride.............

sorry for so many questions but honestly i'm just at the starting blocks!

[PurePursuit]

Thanks for the input slice! Now if we could only get you to start a thread devoted to your swing theory and drills that help to attain it. When is the site scheduled to be finished I shot you an e-mail a day ago or so, if you get a chance hit me back (or sign on AOL/AIM).

[scores]

Hi SF

send me u r email address if you are still having issues with u r internet connection and I ll try and help u out..

Scores

[slicefixer]

[quote name='Shagshow' post='888710' date='Jan 29 2008, 11:22 AM']Thanks for the input slice! Now if we could only get you to start a thread devoted to your swing theory and drills that help to attain it. When is the site scheduled to be finished I shot you an e-mail a day ago or so, if you get a chance hit me back (or sign on AOL/AIM).[/quote]


Responded just a few minutes ago..........as for the site, some interesting and exciting possibilities have recently been offered to me so the site might have to wait for a few months.........It IS in the development stages and I HAVE already organized a LOT of footage to "show"/explain everything I've writen about on this site.........just gotta' get it RIGHT the first time.........NO mulligans allowed around here..........hehehehe

[scores]

Hi SF

I can also help you with that stuff as well I have plenty of connections... ok

[PurePursuit]

Oh no, what are these interesting and exciting developments? Does this mean less ::cough:::free:::cough:: knowledge is going to be given out .

[scores]

Oh back to the hogan clips ... it may appear that his left arm is glued to his chest but ... now I think I am getting it slowly ... its the core ... swing hard left...not sure but thats what gives you the assumption of this left arm being glued to his chests..

[slicefixer]

[quote name='Shagshow' post='888729' date='Jan 29 2008, 11:33 AM']Oh no, what are these interesting and exciting developments? Does this mean less ::cough:::free:::cough:: knowledge is going to be given out .[/quote]

Some think what I say is a a bunch of cocka' anyway so they'd no doubt be very happy if I clammed up.......hehehehe........and NO, I'll still freely answer and attempt to help anyone who asks as that's just my nature........

[Dariusz J.]

I think you took too literally and, therefore, misunderstook the concept of Jim Hardy's OP swing theory.


[i]Here's another pic that shows Hogan did not turn the clubface perpendicular to the arc early in the downswing:[/i]

[attachment=212949:post_246...572908_1.jpg]

this pic exactly shows Hogan in the phase of delivering his clubface to the square-to-the-arc position while his arms are at waist high; if the clubface is not delayed (Hogan's lag) it would be already perpendicular; after all, miliseconds later, the clubface will be square to the arc, like on this great pic, thanks to right forearm/hand action that was mentioned in this thread by Rok :

[attachment=212948:cap016.jpg]


Both pictures show the elbow behind the rear hip. Where's the elbow ? In front of the body ???

The notion of delivering the upper arm at the seam shirt is valid for the backswing, not for the downswing. For the downswing what is important is being perpendicular to the arc as long as possible. It can happen only when your rear arm is bent in elbow and the elbow remains behind the hip - who told you that behind and far away ??? Although OP swing theory differs in some minor points from Hogan's swing pattern, the main concept is the same.

There are a lot of misunderstanding and errors in some of the posts below...

Cheers

[PurePursuit]

Thanks slice, but when you do put out your book/video lessons I will purchase more than a few copies and help get them out for ya.
Alright now i'll leave this thread to the experts and the topic at hand.

[FlyFish]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='888702' date='Jan 29 2008, 07:16 AM']1) people advocate hogan keeps his left arm glued to his chest on the downswing well quite frankly i don't see this at all watching him on film i see the left arm away from his chest coming in to the hitting area and then the upper part reconnecting as he hits the ball I may be wrong???

Nope, your DEAD ON.........(Part of his secret IMOP......HF has seen the videos with his own eye's etc. so he can attest)

5) did he pull the left arm through the hitting area or "push" the right arm on the downswing?

100% PULL.........do you see his right shoulder "slowing down" in the downswing/impact zone.....HELL NO........you can't "push agasint a pulling force" and to do so REQUIRES the core's rotation to slow........as a result, when a player is "slowing and slingin" or "pushing" you CAN see the shoulder rotation "slow"...........[/quote]

Is it not possible that Hogan added a little right arm push in the bottom of the downswing? Five Lessons seems to suggest this with his image of the sidearm baseball throw and the "three right hands" comment. Would that not be the point when the left arm starts to separate from the body?

Thanks.

[mizuno67]

the point there is milisecond!!! Hardy may have a valid theory but do you really think Hogan was really getting the clubface square to the arc on his downswing i think if he was thinking about this he would have ended up in a mental institute hogan was a player right elbow here right elbow there right elbow on the moon

RIGHT ELBOW GETS IN THE POSITION FROM THE CORRECT PIVOT END OF STORY

[golfer.61]

the hardy right hand throw explains that the clubhead has to move out to the ball and the butt of the club has to work back in toward the beltbuckle at impact..... wheather this is a leftside pull or a right hand throw is how you choose to interpret what you have seen.......the "lawnmower" move was hardy's simple explanation of the right elbow working back and up against your right side during the backswing.... hence a more one planeish looking swing.....i am not an advocate for hardy but hope to clarify for those who tend to get confused...also not a teacher....but slice is by far the expert but he tends to get alittle to wordy....lol

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='mizuno67' post='888788' date='Jan 29 2008, 11:18 AM']the point there is milisecond!!! Hardy may have a valid theory but do you really think Hogan was really getting the clubface square to the arc on his downswing i think if he was thinking about this he would have ended up in a mental institute hogan was a player right elbow here right elbow there right elbow on the moon

RIGHT ELBOW GETS IN THE POSITION FROM THE CORRECT PIVOT END OF STORY[/quote]

Wow...no offense, Mizuno67, but if I were aware that you already knew everything and response to my post this decisive way... I wouldn't probably have sacrificed my time to explain you my idea in detail while answering your 8 or 10 posts few days ago...

I repeat - IMHO, each theory of Hogan's swing that suggests that it could have been the Master's idea is similarily valid. He plays golf in a better place now and smiles perhaps...and he DID NOT TELL anyone the truth. All are theories, I have mine as well and I admit, I agree to Hardy with many aspects, not in all though. I respect all opinions and are here to learn something more - but empty arguments (as e.g. "no, no he was pulling not pushing. Why? Becvause he was pulling" End of message. LOL) usually do not convince me not only in golf swing talks.

Cheers

[mizuno67]

good point maybe i don't know anything but fact is hogan released the club with loft on the face so how could it be square to the arc at any stage of his downswing
i read bobby clampett asked him how does he get his right elbow in the correct position in the downswing hogan replied the hips take care of it
sorry for the rant before everyone else has had one lol